I have a new L-shaped (cavity wall - uninsulated) building comprising four
stables, a hayshed, a workshop and the last bit at one end (16 ft by 22 ft)
which will either be an office or a snooker room.
I want to have some sort of trickle heat in this office area (possibly
thermostated) just sufficient to keep damp away.
Does anyone have a sensible solution for me bearing in mind that electricity
costs are fairly high here?

Many thanks


Gerry

On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:30:59 +0100, "Gerry"
wrote:

I have a new L-shaped (cavity wall - uninsulated) building comprising four
stables, a hayshed, a workshop and the last bit at one end (16 ft by 22 ft)
which will either be an office or a snooker room.
I want to have some sort of trickle heat in this office area (possibly
thermostated) just sufficient to keep damp away.
Does anyone have a sensible solution for me bearing in mind that electricity
costs are fairly high here?

Many thanks


Gerry


You haven't said how far this is from the house, Gerry, but if it's a
reasonable distance you could heat it from the house system assuming
that the boiler has enough capacity.

I had a similar issue in approximately the same space for my workshop.

First of all, make sure that the area to heated is well insulated. I
used 50mm Celotex panels to do this, fitting them inside studding and
applying ply to the faces. Plasterboard could be used for what you
have in mind.

I then installed 150mm plastic soil pipe in a trench between the
building and the house and ran two well insulated 22mm plastic barrier
pipes through them.

At the house end, a stainless steel plate heat exchanger (GEA
Ecobraze) with the primary made a zone on the heating circuit via a
zone valve , and the secondary side going to the outbuilding. There
is a flow switch in the secondary side to control the zone valve.

The workshop has panel radiators plus a pump, thermostat, heating
pressure vessel and filling loop, so it is run totally separately from
the house circuit. The reason for doing this was so that anything
happening to the circuit in the outbuilding including freezing, leak
etc. cannot compromise the house system.
As a precaution, I did use a corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze
product (Fernox Alphi-11) in the secondary circuit, so the temperature
would have to drop to -20 or so for there to be a problem.

When the workshop requires heat, the thermostat operates the pump and
then the secondary circuit flow through the flow switch opens the zone
valve in the house and fires the boiler. The arrangement works very
well and is cheap to operate.

Previously, before insulation, the space took about 12kW of fan heater
to keep barely warm at huge cost. Nowadays, it seldom needs more
than 3kW provided by gas. The thermostat has a timer with frost,
economy and comfort settings which can be set at whatever temperatures
I like and changed manually or automatically. I have mine set to
background level, and then a PIR detector for when I am using the
workshop causes the temperature to be raised.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:30:59 +0100, "Gerry"
wrote:

I have a new L-shaped (cavity wall - uninsulated) building comprising
four
stables, a hayshed, a workshop and the last bit at one end (16 ft by 22
ft)
which will either be an office or a snooker room.
I want to have some sort of trickle heat in this office area (possibly
thermostated) just sufficient to keep damp away.
Does anyone have a sensible solution for me bearing in mind that
electricity
costs are fairly high here?

Many thanks


Gerry


You haven't said how far this is from the house, Gerry, but if it's a
reasonable distance you could heat it from the house system assuming
that the boiler has enough capacity.

I had a similar issue in approximately the same space for my workshop.

First of all, make sure that the area to heated is well insulated. I
used 50mm Celotex panels to do this, fitting them inside studding and
applying ply to the faces. Plasterboard could be used for what you
have in mind.

I then installed 150mm plastic soil pipe in a trench between the
building and the house and ran two well insulated 22mm plastic barrier
pipes through them.

At the house end, a stainless steel plate heat exchanger (GEA
Ecobraze) with the primary made a zone on the heating circuit via a
zone valve , and the secondary side going to the outbuilding. There
is a flow switch in the secondary side to control the zone valve.

The workshop has panel radiators plus a pump, thermostat, heating
pressure vessel and filling loop, so it is run totally separately from
the house circuit. The reason for doing this was so that anything
happening to the circuit in the outbuilding including freezing, leak
etc. cannot compromise the house system.
As a precaution, I did use a corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze
product (Fernox Alphi-11) in the secondary circuit, so the temperature
would have to drop to -20 or so for there to be a problem.

When the workshop requires heat, the thermostat operates the pump and
then the secondary circuit flow through the flow switch opens the zone
valve in the house and fires the boiler. The arrangement works very
well and is cheap to operate.

Previously, before insulation, the space took about 12kW of fan heater
to keep barely warm at huge cost. Nowadays, it seldom needs more
than 3kW provided by gas. The thermostat has a timer with frost,
economy and comfort settings which can be set at whatever temperatures
I like and changed manually or automatically. I have mine set to
background level, and then a PIR detector for when I am using the
workshop causes the temperature to be raised.

Should have had the rads doing background heating with the PIR switching in
fanned Myson heaters, as these warm up the place very fast. Ideal for
moving in and out of the place. They could be directional towards where you
most sit/stand.

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:51:34 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message

The workshop has panel radiators plus a pump, thermostat, heating
pressure vessel and filling loop, so it is run totally separately from
the house circuit. The reason for doing this was so that anything
happening to the circuit in the outbuilding including freezing, leak
etc. cannot compromise the house system.
As a precaution, I did use a corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze
product (Fernox Alphi-11) in the secondary circuit, so the temperature
would have to drop to -20 or so for there to be a problem.

When the workshop requires heat, the thermostat operates the pump and
then the secondary circuit flow through the flow switch opens the zone
valve in the house and fires the boiler. The arrangement works very
well and is cheap to operate.

Previously, before insulation, the space took about 12kW of fan heater
to keep barely warm at huge cost. Nowadays, it seldom needs more
than 3kW provided by gas. The thermostat has a timer with frost,
economy and comfort settings which can be set at whatever temperatures
I like and changed manually or automatically. I have mine set to
background level, and then a PIR detector for when I am using the
workshop causes the temperature to be raised.

Should have had the rads doing background heating with the PIR switching in
fanned Myson heaters, as these warm up the place very fast. Ideal for
moving in and out of the place. They could be directional towards where you
most sit/stand.


The last thing that I need in a place where woodworking including
finishing is being done is fan heaters. I also want an even
temperature throughout the space. The radiators are oversized and
heating is rapid. Generally I set the minimum to 10 degrees and the
operating temperature to 18 degrees and there is little thermal mass
since the walls are ply. The design was carefully thought through for
the intended purpose.

As a generic solution for an office/games room , it could be
reasonable to use fan heaters if one doesn't mind the noise or cost
and is short of space.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Gerry wrote:

I have a new L-shaped (cavity wall - uninsulated) building comprising four
stables, a hayshed, a workshop and the last bit at one end (16 ft by 22 ft)
which will either be an office or a snooker room.
I want to have some sort of trickle heat in this office area (possibly
thermostated) just sufficient to keep damp away.
Does anyone have a sensible solution for me bearing in mind that electricity
costs are fairly high here?


Wood burning stove?

Many thanks


Gerry

Andy Hall wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 01:51:34 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message


The workshop has panel radiators plus a pump, thermostat, heating
pressure vessel and filling loop, so it is run totally separately from
the house circuit. The reason for doing this was so that anything
happening to the circuit in the outbuilding including freezing, leak
etc. cannot compromise the house system.
As a precaution, I did use a corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze
product (Fernox Alphi-11) in the secondary circuit, so the temperature
would have to drop to -20 or so for there to be a problem.

When the workshop requires heat, the thermostat operates the pump and
then the secondary circuit flow through the flow switch opens the zone
valve in the house and fires the boiler. The arrangement works very
well and is cheap to operate.

Previously, before insulation, the space took about 12kW of fan heater
to keep barely warm at huge cost. Nowadays, it seldom needs more
than 3kW provided by gas. The thermostat has a timer with frost,
economy and comfort settings which can be set at whatever temperatures
I like and changed manually or automatically. I have mine set to
background level, and then a PIR detector for when I am using the
workshop causes the temperature to be raised.

Should have had the rads doing background heating with the PIR switching in
fanned Myson heaters, as these warm up the place very fast. Ideal for
moving in and out of the place. They could be directional towards where you
most sit/stand.



The last thing that I need in a place where woodworking including
finishing is being done is fan heaters. I also want an even
temperature throughout the space. The radiators are oversized and
heating is rapid. Generally I set the minimum to 10 degrees and the
operating temperature to 18 degrees and there is little thermal mass
since the walls are ply. The design was carefully thought through for
the intended purpose.


If you are doing woodworking a wood stove is ideal to dispose of sawdust
and scrap..

As a generic solution for an office/games room , it could be
reasonable to use fan heaters if one doesn't mind the noise or cost
and is short of space.


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:45:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



If you are doing woodworking a wood stove is ideal to dispose of sawdust
and scrap..


Agreed, and I did look at that, but to have enough material to run one
you have to be working quite a lot of material and then to store it
during the year for the winter.

For my pattern of use, which at the moment tends to be weekends plus a
few hours in evenings during the week, getting a stove going would be
a PITA. I guess with a multi-fuel stove it could be interesting.


Probably for somebody who woodworks for a living and has a small shop
used all day, every day, it can work quite well. I know of
production shops in the U.S. with 4 or 5 people who have briquetting
machines to compress the chips and dust and then burn the briquettes
in a suitable furnace.
..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote
| The last thing that I need in a place where woodworking
| including finishing is being done is fan heaters.
| If you are doing woodworking a wood stove is ideal to dispose
| of sawdust and scrap..

Mmm. Sawdust, varnishes, paints, solvents ... and a wood stove.

Owain

Andy Hall wrote:

On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 10:45:15 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



If you are doing woodworking a wood stove is ideal to dispose of sawdust
and scrap..



Agreed, and I did look at that, but to have enough material to run one
you have to be working quite a lot of material and then to store it
during the year for the winter.

For my pattern of use, which at the moment tends to be weekends plus a
few hours in evenings during the week, getting a stove going would be
a PITA. I guess with a multi-fuel stove it could be interesting.


The fastest way to start a wood fire is with a blow lamp. 0 -full blaze
in about 2 minutes with carpentry chips. Wet lumps of trees take a bit
longer...


Probably for somebody who woodworks for a living and has a small shop
used all day, every day, it can work quite well. I know of
production shops in the U.S. with 4 or 5 people who have briquetting
machines to compress the chips and dust and then burn the briquettes
in a suitable furnace.

Yup.

.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Thank you all for your useful ideas - that will work - I am only about 30
feet from the end of the house - I hadn't thought of using the main system.

Slán
Gerry

Andy Hall wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:30:59 +0100, "Gerry"
wrote:

I have a new L-shaped (cavity wall - uninsulated) building comprising
four
stables, a hayshed, a workshop and the last bit at one end (16 ft by 22
ft)
which will either be an office or a snooker room.
I want to have some sort of trickle heat in this office area (possibly
thermostated) just sufficient to keep damp away.
Does anyone have a sensible solution for me bearing in mind that
electricity
costs are fairly high here?

Many thanks


Gerry


You haven't said how far this is from the house, Gerry, but if it's a
reasonable distance you could heat it from the house system assuming
that the boiler has enough capacity.

I had a similar issue in approximately the same space for my workshop.

First of all, make sure that the area to heated is well insulated. I
used 50mm Celotex panels to do this, fitting them inside studding and
applying ply to the faces. Plasterboard could be used for what you
have in mind.

I then installed 150mm plastic soil pipe in a trench between the
building and the house and ran two well insulated 22mm plastic barrier
pipes through them.

At the house end, a stainless steel plate heat exchanger (GEA
Ecobraze) with the primary made a zone on the heating circuit via a
zone valve , and the secondary side going to the outbuilding. There
is a flow switch in the secondary side to control the zone valve.

The workshop has panel radiators plus a pump, thermostat, heating
pressure vessel and filling loop, so it is run totally separately from
the house circuit. The reason for doing this was so that anything
happening to the circuit in the outbuilding including freezing, leak
etc. cannot compromise the house system.
As a precaution, I did use a corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze
product (Fernox Alphi-11) in the secondary circuit, so the temperature
would have to drop to -20 or so for there to be a problem.

When the workshop requires heat, the thermostat operates the pump and
then the secondary circuit flow through the flow switch opens the zone
valve in the house and fires the boiler. The arrangement works very
well and is cheap to operate.

Previously, before insulation, the space took about 12kW of fan heater
to keep barely warm at huge cost. Nowadays, it seldom needs more
than 3kW provided by gas. The thermostat has a timer with frost,
economy and comfort settings which can be set at whatever temperatures
I like and changed manually or automatically. I have mine set to
background level, and then a PIR detector for when I am using the
workshop causes the temperature to be raised.




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 00:27:25 +0100, "Gerry"
wrote:

Thank you all for your useful ideas - that will work - I am only about 30
feet from the end of the house - I hadn't thought of using the main system.

Slán
Gerry


You're welcome.

Do note the point on separating the systems with the heat exchanger,
though, and don't be tempted just to add it in. This is to avoid
compromising the main system if something bad happens to the outside
one.

I used a GEA Ecobraze stainless steel heat exchanger Model 18
www.gea-ecobraze.com

I guess that the UK office GEA Ecoflex +44 1909 551 107 covers Ireland
and could point you to a distributor, Otherwise, there are some UK
suppliers like DPS.

For the building to building ducting , I based the design on something
I found in a design note in the Northern Ireland Building Regulations.
I can send you a copy as a Word or PDF file if you drop me an email.

One thing to watch is the overall pipe length and the amount of heat
required in the building. Calculate the building requirement first
using a heat loss program (e.g. Myson or Barlo radiators) and work out
the water flow. I didn;t need a lot of heat, so 22mm was OK, and the
pipe runs are similar to yours.

I put the heating pressure vessel, filling loop and pump all in the
workshop and then the only components of the secondary loop in the
house are the heat exchanger and flow switch. You can do the rest
of the design using Ed Sirett's sealed system FAQ and treating the
heat exchanger as the "boiler".

One reason for the flow switch arrangement is that I wanted to have a
separate zone for the heat exchanger so that I could have the boiler
heat it separately if I like but also that I didn't need to run an
electrical control circuit between the buildings. Workshop thermostat
runs the pump, flow switch in house operates and zone valve opens..
I could have used a wireless thermostat and put the receiver indoors I
suppose, but I wasn't confident of the operating range.



..andy

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"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Oct 2004 23:30:59 +0100, "Gerry"
wrote:

I have a new L-shaped (cavity wall - uninsulated) building comprising
four
stables, a hayshed, a workshop and the last bit at one end (16 ft by 22
ft)
which will either be an office or a snooker room.
I want to have some sort of trickle heat in this office area (possibly
thermostated) just sufficient to keep damp away.
Does anyone have a sensible solution for me bearing in mind that
electricity
costs are fairly high here?

Many thanks


Gerry


You haven't said how far this is from the house, Gerry, but if it's a
reasonable distance you could heat it from the house system assuming
that the boiler has enough capacity.

I had a similar issue in approximately the same space for my workshop.

First of all, make sure that the area to heated is well insulated. I
used 50mm Celotex panels to do this, fitting them inside studding and
applying ply to the faces. Plasterboard could be used for what you
have in mind.

I then installed 150mm plastic soil pipe in a trench between the
building and the house and ran two well insulated 22mm plastic barrier
pipes through them.

At the house end, a stainless steel plate heat exchanger (GEA
Ecobraze) with the primary made a zone on the heating circuit via a
zone valve , and the secondary side going to the outbuilding. There
is a flow switch in the secondary side to control the zone valve.

The workshop has panel radiators plus a pump, thermostat, heating
pressure vessel and filling loop, so it is run totally separately from
the house circuit. The reason for doing this was so that anything
happening to the circuit in the outbuilding including freezing, leak
etc. cannot compromise the house system.
As a precaution, I did use a corrosion inhibitor and antifreeze
product (Fernox Alphi-11) in the secondary circuit, so the temperature
would have to drop to -20 or so for there to be a problem.

When the workshop requires heat, the thermostat operates the pump and
then the secondary circuit flow through the flow switch opens the zone
valve in the house and fires the boiler. The arrangement works very
well and is cheap to operate.

Previously, before insulation, the space took about 12kW of fan heater
to keep barely warm at huge cost. Nowadays, it seldom needs more
than 3kW provided by gas. The thermostat has a timer with frost,
economy and comfort settings which can be set at whatever temperatures
I like and changed manually or automatically. I have mine set to
background level, and then a PIR detector for when I am using the
workshop causes the temperature to be raised.

What make and model t/stat?

On Tue, 26 Oct 2004 09:03:10 +0100, "IMM" wrote:


"Andy Hall" wrote in message

Previously, before insulation, the space took about 12kW of fan heater
to keep barely warm at huge cost. Nowadays, it seldom needs more
than 3kW provided by gas. The thermostat has a timer with frost,
economy and comfort settings which can be set at whatever temperatures
I like and changed manually or automatically. I have mine set to
background level, and then a PIR detector for when I am using the
workshop causes the temperature to be raised.

What make and model t/stat?


Siemens (Landis & Staefa) Rev 100.
http://www.landisstaefa.com/opc_e/sheet/N2211en.pdf


..andy

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