Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own electricity and
are highly efficient. I know of 2 suppliers atthe moment only which are
Powergen's Whispergen and BG's Microgen.

Any advice?

Faz

"Faz" wrote in message
...
Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own electricity
and
are highly efficient. I know of 2 suppliers atthe moment only which are
Powergen's Whispergen and BG's Microgen.

The Whispergen is available in NZ. A stand alone CHP Stirling engine unit.
The Whispergen produces 1kW and heat as a byproduct. Sigma of Norway
produce a 3kW unit, not available yet.

The Microgen is a wall mounted unit producing 1kW and there will be a combi
version too. And is not available yet, but manufacturing is being done in
Japan by Rennai.

Gledhill have developed a thermal store, the mCPH, a derivative of the
Boilermate, specifically for mating with a CHP unit with a control board to
control and mate the two. http://www.gledhill.net The idea is for power
companies to pay for, or heavily subsidise the installation of these units
in homes. They then can be remotely all switrched on to collectively give
quite a few magawatts back into the grid at peak times. What the home owner
does not use is fed back into the grid. They will be environmentally sounds
as line losses are minimal, and most energy used at source.

Millions of homes are to be built and heavy building at Ashford in Kent and
Milton Keynes in Bucks. If all these homes had these then less power
stations would need to be built, less power infrastructure which is always
overground by pylons (gas is in pipes under). They are about the same
efficiency as a condensing boiler, so not attractive to an individual, so
subsidy is the only way to kick-start them. With the right control system,
Gledhill have developed one, they can be optimised to produce electricity
which is 3 to 4 times more expensive than gas. Claims of 25% more
efficiency in electricity and gas combined is claimed, beside the
environmental spins offs. So they may be worthwhile to the individual. The
Microgen will work in a power cut, so fine for remote areas (runs on LPG
too). The government is very interested in them and it looks like they will
take off.

These units are to be referred to as "Boilers". They are also aimed at
the boiler replacement market.

Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own electricity
and
are highly efficient.

I hadn't realised that they had gone into production yet. I think they're a
great idea, but personally, I prefer to avoid 1st generation products. If
you are into the "bleeding" edge, then try one. Just make sure you post the
results here!

They don't generate much electricity, so you still need a genuine
electricity connection. However, they will plod away producing enough for
your lights/fridge/freezer/TV, so that you only draw electric current from
the mains when you're doing something big, like using the tumble dryer or
kettle.

Christian.

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:22:35 GMT, "Faz"
wrote:

Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own electricity and
are highly efficient. I know of 2 suppliers atthe moment only which are
Powergen's Whispergen and BG's Microgen.

Any advice?

Faz

Hi,

Gledhill do something designed to use micro CHP, see this post:

http://groups.google.com/groups?q=chp+gledhill&hl=en&lr=lang_en&selm=2sv6ul F1q03b0U1%40uni-berlin.de&rnum=4

cheers,
Pete.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own electricity
and
are highly efficient.

I hadn't realised that they had gone into production yet. I think they're
a
great idea, but personally, I prefer to avoid 1st generation products. If
you are into the "bleeding" edge, then try one. Just make sure you post
the
results here!

They don't generate much electricity, so you still need a genuine
electricity connection. However, they will plod away producing enough for
your lights/fridge/freezer/TV, so that you only draw electric current from
the mains when you're doing something big, like using the tumble dryer or
kettle.

They will produce electricity intermittently. When the thermal store is up
to temp and no heat is demanded from CH and DHW, then you draw from the
grid. It is claimed that over 50% of all electricity will be generated in
the home using these units and 25% cheaper to run in both gas and
electricity, as you also sell electricity back to the power company.

The peak demand for DHW and CH is at the same time peak demand for
electricity on the grid. So, when heating the place, it will power your home
up to 1 kW, which is a fair amount of power, and sell any surplus back to
the grid.

The Whispergen has been in use in boats for along time. Not first
generation with this model.

IMM wrote:

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own electricity
and
are highly efficient.

I hadn't realised that they had gone into production yet. I think they're
a
great idea, but personally, I prefer to avoid 1st generation products. If
you are into the "bleeding" edge, then try one. Just make sure you post
the
results here!

They don't generate much electricity, so you still need a genuine
electricity connection. However, they will plod away producing enough for
your lights/fridge/freezer/TV, so that you only draw electric current from
the mains when you're doing something big, like using the tumble dryer or
kettle.

They will produce electricity intermittently. When the thermal store is up
to temp and no heat is demanded from CH and DHW, then you draw from the
grid. It is claimed that over 50% of all electricity will be generated in
the home using these units and 25% cheaper to run in both gas and
electricity, as you also sell electricity back to the power company.

Personally, mine would rapidly grow a small battery bank, so it could be
operated entirely off-grid, in case of power failure, and to provide
for larger surges than 1Kw.
I'd also be looking at a small gas storage tank that could be plumbed
up to the boiler for a mains gas outage too, as well as considering
a large thermal store.

The power company is of course the best place to sell back to, much
better than a battey bank - if it's working.

They will produce electricity intermittently. When the thermal store is up
to temp and no heat is demanded from CH and DHW, then you draw from the
grid. It is claimed that over 50% of all electricity will be generated in
the home using these units and 25% cheaper to run in both gas and
electricity, as you also sell electricity back to the power company.

A bit of careful design with the heatbank could get better than this. If you
have space to oversize the cylinder, you could get it to only demand heat
when less than 1/2 full. Then it could be available for electricity until
full. I haven't seen the specs, but I presume the CHP's heat output when
demanding electricity only would be around 3kW when producing 1kW of
electricity, so you could get several hours of electricity out of it before
the heat bank is 100% satisfied, requiring the motor to be shut down.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
...
They will produce electricity intermittently. When the thermal store is
up
to temp and no heat is demanded from CH and DHW, then you draw from the
grid. It is claimed that over 50% of all electricity will be generated
in
the home using these units and 25% cheaper to run in both gas and
electricity, as you also sell electricity back to the power company.

A bit of careful design with the heatbank could get better than this. If
you
have space to oversize the cylinder, you could get it to only demand heat
when less than 1/2 full. Then it could be available for electricity until
full. I haven't seen the specs, but I presume the CHP's heat output when
demanding electricity only would be around 3kW when producing 1kW of
electricity, so you could get several hours of electricity out of it
before
the heat bank is 100% satisfied, requiring the motor to be shut down.

This is what Gledhill hope to do. The store literally stores heat that would
be otherwise wasted. The CHP Stirling units alone, don't produce that much
heat, say compared to a 25kW boiler, so it could trickle charge the store
retaining heat while producing electricity. The Microgen has an additional
burner to boost the Stirling engine. The control system and sizing of the
store is essential in gaining maximum efficiency. The scenarios of calling
for electricity and no CH or DHW or DHW calling and no electricity called,
ect, have to be thought out. A self adaptive control system remembering the
demand of the house, would be likely.

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made
to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own
electricity
and
are highly efficient.

I hadn't realised that they had gone into production yet. I think
they're
a
great idea, but personally, I prefer to avoid 1st generation products.
If
you are into the "bleeding" edge, then try one. Just make sure you post
the
results here!

They don't generate much electricity, so you still need a genuine
electricity connection. However, they will plod away producing enough
for
your lights/fridge/freezer/TV, so that you only draw electric current
from
the mains when you're doing something big, like using the tumble dryer
or
kettle.

They will produce electricity intermittently. When the thermal store is
up
to temp and no heat is demanded from CH and DHW, then you draw from the
grid. It is claimed that over 50% of all electricity will be generated
in
the home using these units and 25% cheaper to run in both gas and
electricity, as you also sell electricity back to the power company.

Personally, mine would rapidly grow a small battery bank, so it could be
operated entirely off-grid, in case of power failure, and to provide
for larger surges than 1Kw.

No need. The Microgen can work off the grid giving 1kW 1kW will provide
all essential services to a house: fridge, lights, power for CH, DHW, etc.

I'd also be looking at a small gas storage tank that could be plumbed
up to the boiler for a mains gas outage too,

I'm not sure if you can store natural gas. You can but they may object. It
may be cheaper to have a natural gas and an LPG CHP boiler unit. The LPG
can be run off large gas bottles as this would be for backup only, so no
need for an expensive to buy and rent large LPG tank laying there consuming
money.

as well as considering
a large thermal store.

Good idea. And run very low temp underfloor heating from it.

The power company is of course the best place to sell back to, much
better than a battey bank - if it's working.

In your case I assume it doesn't. If you are prone to outages, then the
secret is to have as little on electricity as possible. And the appliance
you do, make sure they are all very high efficiency models. Running a gas
tumble dryer is a start.

IMM wrote:

"Ian Stirling" wrote in message
...
IMM wrote:

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made
to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own
electricity
and
are highly efficient.

I hadn't realised that they had gone into production yet. I think
they're
a
great idea, but personally, I prefer to avoid 1st generation products.
If
snip
They will produce electricity intermittently. When the thermal store is
up
to temp and no heat is demanded from CH and DHW, then you draw from the
grid. It is claimed that over 50% of all electricity will be generated
in
the home using these units and 25% cheaper to run in both gas and
electricity, as you also sell electricity back to the power company.

Personally, mine would rapidly grow a small battery bank, so it could be
operated entirely off-grid, in case of power failure, and to provide
for larger surges than 1Kw.

No need. The Microgen can work off the grid giving 1kW 1kW will provide
all essential services to a house: fridge, lights, power for CH, DHW, etc.

1Kw is not enough.
A fridge and freezer will easily use 1Kw (if they happen to start at
once.) Plus, with the microgen, you need power to start it.


I'd also be looking at a small gas storage tank that could be plumbed
up to the boiler for a mains gas outage too,

I'm not sure if you can store natural gas. You can but they may object. It
may be cheaper to have a natural gas and an LPG CHP boiler unit. The LPG
can be run off large gas bottles as this would be for backup only, so no
need for an expensive to buy and rent large LPG tank laying there consuming
money.

I was more thinking of a couple of large propane cylinders, to cover short
outages.
(after investigating if I can safely compensate for the different gas
properties with different feed pressure, or if I'd need to swap nozzles)

as well as considering
a large thermal store.

Good idea. And run very low temp underfloor heating from it.

wrote:
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 11:22:35 GMT, "Faz"
wrote:

Has anyone heard of Micro Combined Heat and Power units. I am made to
believe that these are boilers that also generate their own electricity and
are highly efficient. I know of 2 suppliers atthe moment only which are
Powergen's Whispergen and BG's Microgen.

When we've discussed this in the past I've suggested modifying a Honda
inverter genset, as this would give a higher proportion of electricity
to heat, albeit at the cost of increased pollution.

Problem is that the MTBF on gensets tend to suck a bit.
I want one that'll go for at least ten years.
I don't think there are many gensets that'll do this.
Of course, if you do it right, you can run a conventional generator from
gas.

The scenarios of calling for electricity and no CH or DHW or DHW
calling and no electricity called, ect, have to be thought out.

I bet quite reasonable efficiencies could be obtained by running a small
immersion heater off the motor if heat, but no leccy is required, assuming
thermal efficiency of the system is good enough.

Christian.