A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim

"JJJ" wrote in message
...
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

I recall reading in an article that condensing boilers often do not last
very long if fitted to existing systems - something to do with steel
radiators I think. The article suggested that they are much more successful
in new systems, appropriately specified.

I'm sticking with my old dinosaur of a boiler. It works fine and it's cheap
and simple to fix!

Rick

"JJJ" wrote in message
...
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..


For early ones he probably is but they've got a lot better. Laws of
customer satisfaction and all that. In any case you don't replace the whole
boiler, just some of the bits which are usually available as a kit.

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, JJJ wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim

Well if you want heating boiler insurance,
Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5
years for condensers.
Does that suggest something !

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:01:52 GMT, Dave W
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, JJJ wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim

Well if you want heating boiler insurance,
Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5
years for condensers.
Does that suggest something !


Yes - that they are run by actuaries. These are people who found
accountancy too exciting.

It is true that UK designed and manufactured products of say 5 years
ago have had a poor reputation because of poor design and choice of
materials. However, this has not been a problem with products and
designs from Germany and Holland , so what you describe is the
reaction of an industry looking at historical rather than current
information.

Generally insurance policies on boilers and heating systems are a
waste of money anyway. If you looks at BG's £150 deal you can have
paid for a new boiler in 5 years anyway, and they have so many get
outs that the policy is practically worthless in the first place.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Whilst at a metal scrap yard recentley a local heating company were dumping
a load of boilers and the majority were condensing type,they did not look as
though they were that old.the engineer told me that they have to replace
condensing boilers more freqentley that the old standard ones due to high
corrosion.

In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Even at 10 years, I doubt the replacement cost swamps the
savings. Anyway, savings is not the only reason to use a
condensing boiler. I bought one, for the same reason I
buy other energy saving appliances. It was more than paid
for by the money I saved getting my windows replaced just
before Part L came into force (which was a big waste of
money -- just about any other way you could spend the
extra money on energy efficiency other than on K glass is
much more effective in an older house).

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

In article ,
Ian Stirling writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

Who is going to go to the effort of working out the
programming though? Without the manufacturer's original
design data (such as graphs plotting premix fan speed
against gas valve proportional control), you can't do it,
except by trial and error. You would never get GC approval
for something like that.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers
outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of
a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf
solutions from a small number of companies specialising
in this area, then this might just happen.

For example, does Keston use the control boards for their
C25 in the larger model boilers? Does anyone else use the
same control boards? (Keston doesn't appear to make them
themselves, but I don't know how generic a part they are.)
There are two sizable boards stuffed full of micro-electronics
in these units. They operate in the heat inside the boiler
casing, and they are under one end of the heat exchanger
where they could get wet if it leaked (there's a plastic
shroud, but I would not bet it would save them). I notice the
C25 does seem to have what looks like an unused additional
input for a lockout cause which isn't connected to anything
on the C25. Maybe something used by a different range, or
just protecting themselves in case they find they have to
add air flow or water flow switch or something silimar in
a product rev.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
Ian Stirling writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

Who is going to go to the effort of working out the
programming though? Without the manufacturer's original
design data (such as graphs plotting premix fan speed
against gas valve proportional control), you can't do it,
except by trial and error. You would never get GC approval
for something like that.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers
outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of
a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf
solutions from a small number of companies specialising
in this area, then this might just happen.

No way ...

They'd all have proprietary software burned in them, which the boiler
manufacturers would hold the copyright on


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In article ,
raden writes:
In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes

If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers
outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of
a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf
solutions from a small number of companies specialising
in this area, then this might just happen.

No way ...

They'd all have proprietary software burned in them, which the boiler
manufacturers would hold the copyright on

Yes, wasn't a serious suggestion.

If you consider a more expensive item which you expect to last
a lot longer than 10 years, this issue is a real problem.
Some 10+ years ago when I was working on System X, the components
used in that were going obsolete at the rate of around 2 per week
IIRC. You have to maintain a redesign team in that case, just so you
can carry on making line cards and other parts, for a system which
has a design life of decades.

--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer

In message , Ian
Stirling writes
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

Great in theory, but it just doesn't happen. The closest to a "generic"
board anyone seems to have got is the Honeywell sequence boards which
fit directly onto gas valves, but even then none of them are quite the
same and there is the rival Italian company SIT who are in competition

You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6
pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a
generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of
unifying at all or having any intention of doing so


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:45:57 GMT, raden wrote:



While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a
generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of
unifying at all or having any intention of doing so


There is/has been an "open standard" via a manufacturer consortium in
Holland to attempt to produce a common control interface between room
and water themostats and controls and single or multiple boilers,
basically to provide something better than coarse on/off control via
PWM.

I can't find the link for the moment, but a few of the well known
manufacturers had joined it. IIRC though, little had changed on the
site since about 2000 so it has probably gone the way of most
manufacturer consortia...........


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

You only have to look back a few years when
Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are
identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. So it is probably worth
using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the
board.


While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a
generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of
unifying at all or having any intention of doing so


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , IMM writes


You only have to look back a few years when
Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are
identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

I assume these are all different sizes, and prices.

No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off
holes


So it is probably worth
using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the
board.

Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you
right open for installing the wrong pcb

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info



--
geoff

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, "JJJ" wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim




No, it's an old wive's tale that he heard at the plumber's merchant.

It is true that early generations of UK designed and manufactured
condensing boilers suffered limited lifetimes because they were badly
designed and made - many simply added a secondary heat exchanger to a
conventional boiler and unsurprisingly condensate (which is mildly
acidic) found its way to metal components that were susceptible to
rust.

In mainland Europe, especially Holland and Germany, condensing boilers
have been available for 15-20 years and are mainly now 4th generation.

Most condensing products coming onto the market now are based on
designs originating from these countries or even originate from them
to a greater or lesser extent.
Appropriate materials such as stainless steel and plastics are used
and condensate is handled correctly.

The complexity is now not significantly different to the more
sophisticated conventional boilers.

Non condensing boilers will fade from the market over the next few
months as new legislation applies from next April.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, "JJJ" wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years
out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that
the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim




No, it's an old wive's tale that he heard at the plumber's merchant.

It is true that early generations of UK designed and manufactured
condensing boilers suffered limited lifetimes because they were badly
designed and made - many simply added a secondary heat exchanger to a
conventional boiler and unsurprisingly condensate (which is mildly
acidic) found its way to metal components that were susceptible to
rust.

In mainland Europe, especially Holland and Germany, condensing boilers
have been available for 15-20 years and are mainly now 4th generation.

Most condensing products coming onto the market now are based on
designs originating from these countries or even originate from them
to a greater or lesser extent.
Appropriate materials such as stainless steel and plastics are used
and condensate is handled correctly.

The complexity is now not significantly different to the more
sophisticated conventional boilers.

Non condensing boilers will fade from the market over the next few
months as new legislation applies from next April.


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

My Oil condensing boiler is in it's 10 year and is regularly maintained. The
maintenance Engineer says that my boiler will last another 10 years. the
check figures shows a 90% efficiency still. It was made by a British Firm
and has paid for itself in 7 years.
Blair