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Lifespan of a condensing boiler?
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. Jim |
"JJJ" wrote in message ... A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. I recall reading in an article that condensing boilers often do not last very long if fitted to existing systems - something to do with steel radiators I think. The article suggested that they are much more successful in new systems, appropriately specified. I'm sticking with my old dinosaur of a boiler. It works fine and it's cheap and simple to fix! Rick |
"JJJ" wrote in message ... A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. For early ones he probably is but they've got a lot better. Laws of customer satisfaction and all that. In any case you don't replace the whole boiler, just some of the bits which are usually available as a kit. |
In article ,
"JJJ" writes: A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long, mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be better in this respect. The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to use modern components just for the spares market. The life of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.) not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. Even at 10 years, I doubt the replacement cost swamps the savings. Anyway, savings is not the only reason to use a condensing boiler. I bought one, for the same reason I buy other energy saving appliances. It was more than paid for by the money I saved getting my windows replaced just before Part L came into force (which was a big waste of money -- just about any other way you could spend the extra money on energy efficiency other than on K glass is much more effective in an older house). -- Andrew Gabriel |
Whilst at a metal scrap yard recentley a local heating company were dumping
a load of boilers and the majority were condensing type,they did not look as though they were that old.the engineer told me that they have to replace condensing boilers more freqentley that the old standard ones due to high corrosion. |
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, JJJ wrote:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. Jim Well if you want heating boiler insurance, Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5 years for condensers. Does that suggest something ! |
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, "JJJ" wrote:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. Jim No, it's an old wive's tale that he heard at the plumber's merchant. It is true that early generations of UK designed and manufactured condensing boilers suffered limited lifetimes because they were badly designed and made - many simply added a secondary heat exchanger to a conventional boiler and unsurprisingly condensate (which is mildly acidic) found its way to metal components that were susceptible to rust. In mainland Europe, especially Holland and Germany, condensing boilers have been available for 15-20 years and are mainly now 4th generation. Most condensing products coming onto the market now are based on designs originating from these countries or even originate from them to a greater or lesser extent. Appropriate materials such as stainless steel and plastics are used and condensate is handled correctly. The complexity is now not significantly different to the more sophisticated conventional boilers. Non condensing boilers will fade from the market over the next few months as new legislation applies from next April. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:01:52 GMT, Dave W
wrote: On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, JJJ wrote: A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. Jim Well if you want heating boiler insurance, Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5 years for condensers. Does that suggest something ! Yes - that they are run by actuaries. These are people who found accountancy too exciting. It is true that UK designed and manufactured products of say 5 years ago have had a poor reputation because of poor design and choice of materials. However, this has not been a problem with products and designs from Germany and Holland , so what you describe is the reaction of an industry looking at historical rather than current information. Generally insurance policies on boilers and heating systems are a waste of money anyway. If you looks at BG's £150 deal you can have paid for a new boiler in 5 years anyway, and they have so many get outs that the policy is practically worthless in the first place. ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , "JJJ" writes: A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long, mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be better in this respect. The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to use modern components just for the spares market. The life of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.) It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant. You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay outputs and stuff. You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original plugs, and your generic board. This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for spares. The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the pump, that's hardwired. Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct boiler. |
In article ,
Ian Stirling writes: Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , "JJJ" writes: A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long, mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be better in this respect. The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to use modern components just for the spares market. The life of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.) It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant. You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay outputs and stuff. You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original plugs, and your generic board. This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for spares. Who is going to go to the effort of working out the programming though? Without the manufacturer's original design data (such as graphs plotting premix fan speed against gas valve proportional control), you can't do it, except by trial and error. You would never get GC approval for something like that. The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the pump, that's hardwired. Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct boiler. If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf solutions from a small number of companies specialising in this area, then this might just happen. For example, does Keston use the control boards for their C25 in the larger model boilers? Does anyone else use the same control boards? (Keston doesn't appear to make them themselves, but I don't know how generic a part they are.) There are two sizable boards stuffed full of micro-electronics in these units. They operate in the heat inside the boiler casing, and they are under one end of the heat exchanger where they could get wet if it leaked (there's a plastic shroud, but I would not bet it would save them). I notice the C25 does seem to have what looks like an unused additional input for a lockout cause which isn't connected to anything on the C25. Maybe something used by a different range, or just protecting themselves in case they find they have to add air flow or water flow switch or something silimar in a product rev. -- Andrew Gabriel |
"Andy Hall" wrote in message ... On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, "JJJ" wrote: A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is.. Jim No, it's an old wive's tale that he heard at the plumber's merchant. It is true that early generations of UK designed and manufactured condensing boilers suffered limited lifetimes because they were badly designed and made - many simply added a secondary heat exchanger to a conventional boiler and unsurprisingly condensate (which is mildly acidic) found its way to metal components that were susceptible to rust. In mainland Europe, especially Holland and Germany, condensing boilers have been available for 15-20 years and are mainly now 4th generation. Most condensing products coming onto the market now are based on designs originating from these countries or even originate from them to a greater or lesser extent. Appropriate materials such as stainless steel and plastics are used and condensate is handled correctly. The complexity is now not significantly different to the more sophisticated conventional boilers. Non condensing boilers will fade from the market over the next few months as new legislation applies from next April. .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl My Oil condensing boiler is in it's 10 year and is regularly maintained. The maintenance Engineer says that my boiler will last another 10 years. the check figures shows a 90% efficiency still. It was made by a British Firm and has paid for itself in 7 years. Blair |
In message , Ian
Stirling writes Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , "JJJ" writes: A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long, mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be better in this respect. The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to use modern components just for the spares market. The life of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.) It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant. You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay outputs and stuff. You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original plugs, and your generic board. This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for spares. The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the pump, that's hardwired. Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct boiler. Great in theory, but it just doesn't happen. The closest to a "generic" board anyone seems to have got is the Honeywell sequence boards which fit directly onto gas valves, but even then none of them are quite the same and there is the rival Italian company SIT who are in competition You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all very different in design. While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of unifying at all or having any intention of doing so The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes In article , Ian Stirling writes: Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , "JJJ" writes: A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the condensate rots them from the inside out... is he right? I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long, mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be better in this respect. The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to use modern components just for the spares market. The life of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.) It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant. You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay outputs and stuff. You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original plugs, and your generic board. This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for spares. Who is going to go to the effort of working out the programming though? Without the manufacturer's original design data (such as graphs plotting premix fan speed against gas valve proportional control), you can't do it, except by trial and error. You would never get GC approval for something like that. The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the pump, that's hardwired. Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct boiler. If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf solutions from a small number of companies specialising in this area, then this might just happen. No way ... They'd all have proprietary software burned in them, which the boiler manufacturers would hold the copyright on The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:45:57 GMT, raden wrote:
While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of unifying at all or having any intention of doing so There is/has been an "open standard" via a manufacturer consortium in Holland to attempt to produce a common control interface between room and water themostats and controls and single or multiple boilers, basically to provide something better than coarse on/off control via PWM. I can't find the link for the moment, but a few of the well known manufacturers had joined it. IIRC though, little had changed on the site since about 2000 so it has probably gone the way of most manufacturer consortia........... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
In article ,
James wrote: Seems as if one should get a spare board when you buy a new boiler - until the wasteful practice of obsolesce by design is outlawed. If you think about it, this would prevent any improvements being made to anything. -- *On the seventh day He brewed beer * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all very different in design. I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. So it is probably worth using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the board. While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of unifying at all or having any intention of doing so The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
2004 22:43:22 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:
Well if you want heating boiler insurance, Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5 years for condensers. Does that suggest something ! Yes - that they are run by actuaries. These are people who found accountancy too exciting. I.t is true that UK designed and manufactured products of say 5 years ago have had a poor reputation because of poor design and choice of materials. However, this has not been a problem with products and designs from Germany and Holland , so what you describe is the reaction of an industry looking at historical rather than current information. I don¢t agree at all, insurers are looking to cover the risk involved over the next year. A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a thermocouple that are likely to fail. A 5 year old condenser will likely have fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs. We will have to wait a few years to see if current combi that everyone seem to be buying are as reliable as you think, but with ever more bits inside to go wrong I cant see it. |
"Dave W" wrote in message ... I dont agree at all, insurers are looking to cover the risk involved over the next year. A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a thermocouple that are likely to fail. A 5 year old condenser will likely have fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs. So would a regular system boilers too. There is not that much differnce in control parts in either boiler types. The better condensers have downward firing burners and one piece heat exchangers, unlike the crocks the UK heating industry previously turned out. Some are guaranteeing their stainless steel heat exchangers 5 years. We will have to wait a few years to see if current combi that everyone seem to be buying are as reliable as you think, but with ever more bits inside to go wrong I cant see it. I think you mean condenser not combi. Well they are reliable enough in Germany and Holland...and...GlowWorm are owned Vaillant and have many Vaillant parts inside. The Germans bought Worcester and called it Worcester Bosch. |
In message , IMM writes
You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all very different in design. I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off holes So it is probably worth using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the board. Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you right open for installing the wrong pcb The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
"raden" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all very different in design. I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off holes So 6 pcbs all the same size, doing the same thing with different opart Nos? How odd. But I'm sure different prices. So it is probably worth using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the board. Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you right open for installing the wrong pcb But they are all the same according to you, so yiou can't fit the wrong one. |
In article ,
raden writes: In message , Andrew Gabriel writes If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf solutions from a small number of companies specialising in this area, then this might just happen. No way ... They'd all have proprietary software burned in them, which the boiler manufacturers would hold the copyright on Yes, wasn't a serious suggestion. If you consider a more expensive item which you expect to last a lot longer than 10 years, this issue is a real problem. Some 10+ years ago when I was working on System X, the components used in that were going obsolete at the rate of around 2 per week IIRC. You have to maintain a redesign team in that case, just so you can carry on making line cards and other parts, for a system which has a design life of decades. -- Andrew Gabriel Consultant Software Engineer |
In message , IMM writes
"raden" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all very different in design. I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off holes So 6 pcbs all the same size, doing the same thing with different opart Nos? How odd. But I'm sure different prices. So it is probably worth using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the board. Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you right open for installing the wrong pcb But they are all the same according to you, so yiou can't fit the wrong one. But different part numbers, so no, from an insurance point of view The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
"raden" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes "raden" wrote in message ... In message , IMM writes You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all very different in design. I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off holes So 6 pcbs all the same size, doing the same thing with different opart Nos? How odd. But I'm sure different prices. So it is probably worth using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the board. Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you right open for installing the wrong pcb But they are all the same according to you, so yiou can't fit the wrong one. But different part numbers, so no, from an insurance point of view But "technically" the same thing. |
Dave W wrote in message ...
A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a thermocouple that are likely to fail. A 5 year old condenser will likely have fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs. We will have to wait a few years to see if current combi that everyone seem to be buying are as reliable as you think, but with ever more bits inside to go wrong I cant see it. 15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more reliable and efficient. A PCB in a harsh environment not necessarily a problem provided sufficient care is taken in 'hardening' it. Also a modern non-condensing boiler will have most of the additional components you listed. So that's you sussed then ;o) MH |
In article ,
Mary Hinge wrote: 15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more reliable and efficient. You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway. -- *They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
"raden" wrote in message ... Usually the microprocessors last forever - it's the thrystors or triacs driving the load that go pop. Not even close ... Really ? Look at the standard SEMI MTBF charts then. When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look at charts to tell you the faults. as I said .. in the real world So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? |
"Mary Hinge" wrote in message m... 15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more reliable and efficient. 20 years perhaps. After the early mechanical GTi's most changed to electronic quite soon. Not sure on the "more reliable" bit though as the owner of any 'posh' Land Rover (i.e. not the real ones) will tell you. |
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway. This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the 70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues seriously. -- Andy |
"Andy Wade" wrote in message ... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway. This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the 70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues seriously. I installed a contactless electronic ignition unit in a Merc sports car 30 years ago. The idling immediately stopped hunting and the acceleration increase was noticeable. It started first crack each time. |
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote:
"raden When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look at charts to tell you the faults. as I said .. in the real world So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty issue. -- Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter. The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html |
"Ed Sirett" wrote in message n.co.uk... On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote: So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty issue. Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so. |
"Andy Wade" wrote in message ... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway. This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the 70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues seriously. I built one of those for an Escort Mexico rally car. One transistor went pop at almost 7500 rpm. Hadn't thought about stress levels back then. |
In message , G&M
writes "Ed Sirett" wrote in message on.co.uk... On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote: So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty issue. Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so. Isn't that possibly part of the problem though? These are not electronics companies, they're boiler manufacturers. Maybe they'll employ a couple of EE's at best, or the design may well be sub'ed out. The manufacture of the PCB's likely goes to the cheapest CEM they can find. There may well simply not be the skills necessary to understand the issues of hi-rel with in the company. Hence the high incidence of boiler "PCB" failures we hear about in this ng. As an example, the company I work for, as well as designing and make lots of our own stuff, have a nice side-line for production in building PCB's a third party. Said party take the PCB's and fit them into their electro-mehanical assembly. Said party has absolutely zero knowledge of electronics, and frankly just don't want to know about any technical issues. PCB was designed by a.n.other one-man-band contractor. Muggins here spent weeks ironing out their reliability bugs to reduce _our_ cost of product returns. A new design turns up for a pre-production run, we have to turn round and tell them to go away and correct all the _same_ bugs we've just fixed and told them about on the old design. -- Steve |
In message , IMM writes
"Andy Wade" wrote in message ... Dave Plowman (News) wrote: You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway. This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the 70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues seriously. I installed a contactless electronic ignition unit in a Merc sports car 30 years ago. The idling immediately stopped hunting and the acceleration increase was noticeable. It started first crack each time. Was that in the piston or crank case? The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
In message , G&M
writes "raden" wrote in message ... Usually the microprocessors last forever - it's the thrystors or triacs driving the load that go pop. Not even close ... Really ? Look at the standard SEMI MTBF charts then. When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look at charts to tell you the faults. as I said .. in the real world So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? You are joking, I take it Of course they know the design faults The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
In message , Mary Hinge
writes Dave W wrote in message ... A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a thermocouple that are likely to fail. A 5 year old condenser will likely have fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs. We will have to wait a few years to see if current combi that everyone seem to be buying are as reliable as you think, but with ever more bits inside to go wrong I cant see it. 15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more reliable and efficient. Certainly did in mine, cruise control too, that must be at least 20 years ago A PCB in a harsh environment not necessarily a problem provided sufficient care is taken in 'hardening' it. Also a modern non-condensing boiler will have most of the additional components you listed. You're missing the real point here It would not be at all difficult to make boiler pcbs far more reliable than they are Hint: when you can sell a board which costs maybe a fiver to make for 80 quid, Answers on a postcard (to Baxi, not me please) The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote: "raden When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look at charts to tell you the faults. as I said .. in the real world So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty issue. Yeah right, one word ..... Suprima The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
In message , G&M
writes "Ed Sirett" wrote in message on.co.uk... On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote: So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty issue. Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so. You's not be from round 'ere are you The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
In message , Steven Briggs
writes In message , G&M writes "Ed Sirett" wrote in message mon.co.uk... On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote: So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ? Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty issue. Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so. Isn't that possibly part of the problem though? These are not electronics companies, they're boiler manufacturers. Maybe they'll employ a couple of EE's at best, or the design may well be sub'ed out. The manufacture of the PCB's likely goes to the cheapest CEM they can find. There may well simply not be the skills necessary to understand the issues of hi-rel with in the company. You're thinking way toooo deeply here, and missing the profit element coupled with the lack of foresight The information contained in this post may not be published in, or used by http://www.diyprojects.info -- geoff |
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