A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim

"JJJ" wrote in message
...
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

I recall reading in an article that condensing boilers often do not last
very long if fitted to existing systems - something to do with steel
radiators I think. The article suggested that they are much more successful
in new systems, appropriately specified.

I'm sticking with my old dinosaur of a boiler. It works fine and it's cheap
and simple to fix!

Rick

"JJJ" wrote in message
...
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..


For early ones he probably is but they've got a lot better. Laws of
customer satisfaction and all that. In any case you don't replace the whole
boiler, just some of the bits which are usually available as a kit.

In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Even at 10 years, I doubt the replacement cost swamps the
savings. Anyway, savings is not the only reason to use a
condensing boiler. I bought one, for the same reason I
buy other energy saving appliances. It was more than paid
for by the money I saved getting my windows replaced just
before Part L came into force (which was a big waste of
money -- just about any other way you could spend the
extra money on energy efficiency other than on K glass is
much more effective in an older house).

--
Andrew Gabriel

Whilst at a metal scrap yard recentley a local heating company were dumping
a load of boilers and the majority were condensing type,they did not look as
though they were that old.the engineer told me that they have to replace
condensing boilers more freqentley that the old standard ones due to high
corrosion.

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, JJJ wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim

Well if you want heating boiler insurance,
Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5
years for condensers.
Does that suggest something !

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, "JJJ" wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim




No, it's an old wive's tale that he heard at the plumber's merchant.

It is true that early generations of UK designed and manufactured
condensing boilers suffered limited lifetimes because they were badly
designed and made - many simply added a secondary heat exchanger to a
conventional boiler and unsurprisingly condensate (which is mildly
acidic) found its way to metal components that were susceptible to
rust.

In mainland Europe, especially Holland and Germany, condensing boilers
have been available for 15-20 years and are mainly now 4th generation.

Most condensing products coming onto the market now are based on
designs originating from these countries or even originate from them
to a greater or lesser extent.
Appropriate materials such as stainless steel and plastics are used
and condensate is handled correctly.

The complexity is now not significantly different to the more
sophisticated conventional boilers.

Non condensing boilers will fade from the market over the next few
months as new legislation applies from next April.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 22:01:52 GMT, Dave W
wrote:

On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, JJJ wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim

Well if you want heating boiler insurance,
Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5
years for condensers.
Does that suggest something !


Yes - that they are run by actuaries. These are people who found
accountancy too exciting.

It is true that UK designed and manufactured products of say 5 years
ago have had a poor reputation because of poor design and choice of
materials. However, this has not been a problem with products and
designs from Germany and Holland , so what you describe is the
reaction of an industry looking at historical rather than current
information.

Generally insurance policies on boilers and heating systems are a
waste of money anyway. If you looks at BG's £150 deal you can have
paid for a new boiler in 5 years anyway, and they have so many get
outs that the policy is practically worthless in the first place.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

In article ,
Ian Stirling writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

Who is going to go to the effort of working out the
programming though? Without the manufacturer's original
design data (such as graphs plotting premix fan speed
against gas valve proportional control), you can't do it,
except by trial and error. You would never get GC approval
for something like that.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers
outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of
a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf
solutions from a small number of companies specialising
in this area, then this might just happen.

For example, does Keston use the control boards for their
C25 in the larger model boilers? Does anyone else use the
same control boards? (Keston doesn't appear to make them
themselves, but I don't know how generic a part they are.)
There are two sizable boards stuffed full of micro-electronics
in these units. They operate in the heat inside the boiler
casing, and they are under one end of the heat exchanger
where they could get wet if it leaked (there's a plastic
shroud, but I would not bet it would save them). I notice the
C25 does seem to have what looks like an unused additional
input for a lockout cause which isn't connected to anything
on the C25. Maybe something used by a different range, or
just protecting themselves in case they find they have to
add air flow or water flow switch or something silimar in
a product rev.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 19 Oct 2004 21:04:02 +0100, "JJJ" wrote:

A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years
out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that
the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right? not much point in being 90% efficient if the saving gets
swamped by the cost of a new boiler if he is..

Jim




No, it's an old wive's tale that he heard at the plumber's merchant.

It is true that early generations of UK designed and manufactured
condensing boilers suffered limited lifetimes because they were badly
designed and made - many simply added a secondary heat exchanger to a
conventional boiler and unsurprisingly condensate (which is mildly
acidic) found its way to metal components that were susceptible to
rust.

In mainland Europe, especially Holland and Germany, condensing boilers
have been available for 15-20 years and are mainly now 4th generation.

Most condensing products coming onto the market now are based on
designs originating from these countries or even originate from them
to a greater or lesser extent.
Appropriate materials such as stainless steel and plastics are used
and condensate is handled correctly.

The complexity is now not significantly different to the more
sophisticated conventional boilers.

Non condensing boilers will fade from the market over the next few
months as new legislation applies from next April.


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

My Oil condensing boiler is in it's 10 year and is regularly maintained. The
maintenance Engineer says that my boiler will last another 10 years. the
check figures shows a 90% efficiency still. It was made by a British Firm
and has paid for itself in 7 years.
Blair

In message , Ian
Stirling writes
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

Great in theory, but it just doesn't happen. The closest to a "generic"
board anyone seems to have got is the Honeywell sequence boards which
fit directly onto gas valves, but even then none of them are quite the
same and there is the rival Italian company SIT who are in competition

You only have to look back a few years when Glowworm had (still have) 6
pcbs which are identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a
generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of
unifying at all or having any intention of doing so


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes
In article ,
Ian Stirling writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"JJJ" writes:
A plumber just told me that you're lucky if you get more than 10 years out
of a condensing boiler - because of their complexity and the fact that the
condensate rots them from the inside out...

is he right?

I suspect so. The earlier ones didn't last that long,
mainly failures due to corrosion. Current ones should be
better in this respect.

The high tech microprocessor/microcontroller boards used
in them won't be able able to be made in 10 years time
when I would expect many to fail. Most of the components
will be long obsolete and no one will redesign a board to
use modern components just for the spares market. The life
of the units will be limited by the quantity of up-front
spares manufacturers stock, and it really isn't in their
interests to do this. (and what Geoff gets working again.)

It's pretty much at the point that this could almost be irrelevant.
You design a generic board, with plenty of sensor interfaces, relay
outputs and stuff.
You then plug this into a board with connectors for the original
plugs, and your generic board.

This might be a bit more expensive for OEM, but should be fine for
spares.

Who is going to go to the effort of working out the
programming though? Without the manufacturer's original
design data (such as graphs plotting premix fan speed
against gas valve proportional control), you can't do it,
except by trial and error. You would never get GC approval
for something like that.

The interface board connects up some connectors that are mandatory, for
example, if it has an overheat stat that should shut off all bar the
pump, that's hardwired.
Everything else is done in software, loading a profile of the correct
boiler.

If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers
outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of
a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf
solutions from a small number of companies specialising
in this area, then this might just happen.

No way ...

They'd all have proprietary software burned in them, which the boiler
manufacturers would hold the copyright on


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 20:45:57 GMT, raden wrote:



While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a
generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of
unifying at all or having any intention of doing so


There is/has been an "open standard" via a manufacturer consortium in
Holland to attempt to produce a common control interface between room
and water themostats and controls and single or multiple boilers,
basically to provide something better than coarse on/off control via
PWM.

I can't find the link for the moment, but a few of the well known
manufacturers had joined it. IIRC though, little had changed on the
site since about 2000 so it has probably gone the way of most
manufacturer consortia...........


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article ,
James wrote:
Seems as if one should get a spare board when you buy a new boiler -
until the wasteful practice of obsolesce by design is outlawed.

If you think about it, this would prevent any improvements being made to
anything.

--
*On the seventh day He brewed beer *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

You only have to look back a few years when
Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are
identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

I assume these are all different sizes, and prices. So it is probably worth
using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the
board.


While I've often wondered why, and sometimes thought of designing a
generic boiler control PCB, manufacturers are showing no signs of
unifying at all or having any intention of doing so


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

2004 22:43:22 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:


Well if you want heating boiler insurance,
Most companies will insure conventional up to 15 year old but only 5
years for condensers.
Does that suggest something !


Yes - that they are run by actuaries. These are people who found
accountancy too exciting.

I.t is true that UK designed and manufactured products of say 5 years
ago have had a poor reputation because of poor design and choice of
materials. However, this has not been a problem with products and
designs from Germany and Holland , so what you describe is the
reaction of an industry looking at historical rather than current
information.

I don¢t agree at all, insurers are looking to cover the risk involved over
the next year.
A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a
thermocouple that are likely to fail.
A 5 year old condenser will likely have
fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame
detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs.
We will have to wait a few years to see if current combi that everyone seem
to be buying are as reliable as you think, but with ever more bits inside
to go wrong I cant see it.

"Dave W" wrote in message
...

I dont agree at all, insurers are looking to cover the risk involved over
the next year.
A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a
thermocouple that are likely to fail.
A 5 year old condenser will likely have
fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame
detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs.

So would a regular system boilers too. There is not that much differnce in
control parts in either boiler types. The better condensers have downward
firing burners and one piece heat exchangers, unlike the crocks the UK
heating industry previously turned out. Some are guaranteeing their
stainless steel heat exchangers 5 years.

We will have to wait a few years to see
if current combi that everyone seem
to be buying are as reliable as you think,
but with ever more bits inside
to go wrong I cant see it.

I think you mean condenser not combi. Well they are reliable enough in
Germany and Holland...and...GlowWorm are owned Vaillant and have many
Vaillant parts inside. The Germans bought Worcester and called it Worcester
Bosch.

In message , IMM writes


You only have to look back a few years when
Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are
identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

I assume these are all different sizes, and prices.

No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off
holes


So it is probably worth
using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the
board.

Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you
right open for installing the wrong pcb

The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info



--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes


You only have to look back a few years when
Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are
identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

I assume these are all different sizes, and prices.

No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off
holes

So 6 pcbs all the same size, doing the same thing with different opart Nos?
How odd. But I'm sure different prices.

So it is probably worth
using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the
board.

Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you
right open for installing the wrong pcb

But they are all the same according to you, so yiou can't fit the wrong one.

In article ,
raden writes:
In message , Andrew Gabriel
writes

If it reached the point where most boiler manufacturers
outsourced the microcontroller control aspects to one of
a limited number of companies or bought off-the-shelf
solutions from a small number of companies specialising
in this area, then this might just happen.

No way ...

They'd all have proprietary software burned in them, which the boiler
manufacturers would hold the copyright on

Yes, wasn't a serious suggestion.

If you consider a more expensive item which you expect to last
a lot longer than 10 years, this issue is a real problem.
Some 10+ years ago when I was working on System X, the components
used in that were going obsolete at the rate of around 2 per week
IIRC. You have to maintain a redesign team in that case, just so you
can carry on making line cards and other parts, for a system which
has a design life of decades.

--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer

In message , IMM writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes


You only have to look back a few years when
Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are
identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

I assume these are all different sizes, and prices.

No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the stand-off
holes

So 6 pcbs all the same size, doing the same thing with different opart Nos?
How odd. But I'm sure different prices.

So it is probably worth
using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for the
board.

Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay you
right open for installing the wrong pcb

But they are all the same according to you, so yiou can't fit the wrong one.

But different part numbers, so no, from an insurance point of view


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info


--
geoff

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
In message , IMM
writes


You only have to look back a few years when
Glowworm had (still have) 6 pcbs which are
identical in operation and totally pin compatible, all
very different in design.

I assume these are all different sizes, and prices.

No, exactly the same size, even down to the positioning of the
stand-off
holes

So 6 pcbs all the same size, doing the same thing with different opart
Nos?
How odd. But I'm sure different prices.

So it is probably worth
using the cheapest of these boards,providing you can get a fixing for
the
board.

Well you of all people (cough) should know that doing that would lay
you
right open for installing the wrong pcb

But they are all the same according to you, so yiou can't fit the wrong
one.

But different part numbers, so no, from an insurance point of view

But "technically" the same thing.

Dave W wrote in message ...

A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a
thermocouple that are likely to fail.
A 5 year old condenser will likely have
fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame
detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs.
We will have to wait a few years to see if current combi that everyone seem
to be buying are as reliable as you think, but with ever more bits inside
to go wrong I cant see it.

15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment
either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more
reliable and efficient.

A PCB in a harsh environment not necessarily a problem provided
sufficient care is taken in 'hardening' it. Also a modern
non-condensing boiler will have most of the additional components you
listed.

So that's you sussed then ;o)

MH

In article ,
Mary Hinge wrote:
15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment
either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more
reliable and efficient.

You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible
maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway.

--
*They call it PMS because Mad Cow Disease was already taken.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"raden" wrote in message
...
Usually the microprocessors last forever - it's the thrystors or
triacs
driving the load that go pop.

Not even close ...

Really ? Look at the standard SEMI MTBF charts then.

When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look
at charts to tell you the faults.

as I said .. in the real world

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

"Mary Hinge" wrote in message
m...
15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment
either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more
reliable and efficient.

20 years perhaps. After the early mechanical GTi's most changed to
electronic quite soon.

Not sure on the "more reliable" bit though as the owner of any 'posh' Land
Rover (i.e. not the real ones) will tell you.

In article ,
(Mary Hinge) writes:
15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment
either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more
reliable and efficient.

A PCB in a harsh environment not necessarily a problem provided
sufficient care is taken in 'hardening' it. Also a modern
non-condensing boiler will have most of the additional components you
listed.

Design life of a car is of the order ~3000 hours, and you don't
need any hardening to get designs based on standard commercial
grade components to last significantly longer than that (besides
the obvious waterproofing, etc). The control gear in a compact
fluorescent lamp uses components running above their specified
ratings, but since they only have to last 10000 hours, that's
fine too.

You'll be rather disappointed if your boiler only lasts 3000 hours
because, you'll probably need a new one under guarantee. You'll be
even more annoyed if it only lasts 10000 hours, as that would probably
be a failure within a few years of fitting but outside the guarantee.

Kind of a different order of magnitude.

--
Andrew Gabriel
Consultant Software Engineer

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible
maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway.

This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the
70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD
ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the
aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor
industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues
seriously.

--
Andy

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible
maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway.

This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the
70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD
ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the
aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor
industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues
seriously.

I installed a contactless electronic ignition unit in a Merc sports car 30
years ago. The idling immediately stopped hunting and the acceleration
increase was noticeable. It started first crack each time.

On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote:


"raden
When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look
at charts to tell you the faults.

as I said .. in the real world

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would
listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty
issue.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
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"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote:

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed
back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would
listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty
issue.

Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics
company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get
on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do
want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual
complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime
source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of
warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging
as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so.

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible
maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway.

This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the
70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD
ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the
aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor
industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues
seriously.

I built one of those for an Escort Mexico rally car. One transistor went
pop at almost 7500 rpm. Hadn't thought about stress levels back then.

In message , G&M
writes

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote:

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed
back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would
listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty
issue.

Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics
company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get
on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do
want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual
complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime
source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of
warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging
as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so.



Isn't that possibly part of the problem though? These are not
electronics companies, they're boiler manufacturers.
Maybe they'll employ a couple of EE's at best, or the design may well be
sub'ed out. The manufacture of the PCB's likely goes to the cheapest CEM
they can find.
There may well simply not be the skills necessary to understand the
issues of hi-rel with in the company. Hence the high incidence of
boiler "PCB" failures we hear about in this ng.

As an example, the company I work for, as well as designing and make
lots of our own stuff, have a nice side-line for production in building
PCB's a third party. Said party take the PCB's and fit them into their
electro-mehanical assembly. Said party has absolutely zero knowledge of
electronics, and frankly just don't want to know about any technical
issues. PCB was designed by a.n.other one-man-band contractor. Muggins
here spent weeks ironing out their reliability bugs to reduce _our_
cost of product returns. A new design turns up for a pre-production run,
we have to turn round and tell them to go away and correct all the
_same_ bugs we've just fixed and told them about on the old design.


--
Steve

In message , IMM writes

"Andy Wade" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You're joking? EFI dates back to the late '70s. Although a sensible
maker might well keep the electronics out of the engine bay anyway.

This reminded me of the craze for homebrew CD ignition systems in the
70s. I ran a Mini with a version of the Practical Electronics CD
ignition design from... must have been about '74. That's twice the
aforesaid 15 years ;-). This was also about the time when the motor
industry realised that if they would have to take EMC RF immunity issues
seriously.

I installed a contactless electronic ignition unit in a Merc sports car 30
years ago. The idling immediately stopped hunting and the acceleration
increase was noticeable. It started first crack each time.


Was that in the piston or crank case?


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may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , G&M
writes

"raden" wrote in message
...
Usually the microprocessors last forever - it's the thrystors or
triacs
driving the load that go pop.

Not even close ...

Really ? Look at the standard SEMI MTBF charts then.

When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look
at charts to tell you the faults.

as I said .. in the real world

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

You are joking, I take it

Of course they know the design faults



The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , Mary Hinge
writes
Dave W wrote in message
...

A 15 year old conventional B/F boiler probable only has a gas valve and a
thermocouple that are likely to fail.
A 5 year old condenser will likely have
fan, gas valve, thermistor, flow sensor, ignition electrode, flame
detector, fan stat, safety stat, and probably at least two PCBs.
We will have to wait a few years to see if current combi that everyone seem
to be buying are as reliable as you think, but with ever more bits inside
to go wrong I cant see it.

15 years ago you wouldn't have found a PCB in a car engine compartment
either, yet today they are commonplace and as a result cars are more
reliable and efficient.

Certainly did in mine, cruise control too, that must be at least 20
years ago


A PCB in a harsh environment not necessarily a problem provided
sufficient care is taken in 'hardening' it. Also a modern
non-condensing boiler will have most of the additional components you
listed.

You're missing the real point here

It would not be at all difficult to make boiler pcbs far more reliable
than they are

Hint: when you can sell a board which costs maybe a fiver to make for 80
quid,

Answers on a postcard (to Baxi, not me please)


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message .uk, Ed
Sirett writes
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote:


"raden
When you spend your days repairing boiler PCBs, you don't need to look
at charts to tell you the faults.

as I said .. in the real world

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would
listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty
issue.

Yeah right, one word ..... Suprima


The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , G&M
writes

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote:

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed
back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would
listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty
issue.

Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics
company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get
on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do
want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual
complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime
source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of
warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging
as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so.

You's not be from round 'ere are you




The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info

--
geoff

In message , Steven Briggs
writes
In message , G&M
writes

"Ed Sirett" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004 18:57:13 +0100, G&M wrote:

So what parts do you find die most often ? And is the information fed
back
to the manufacturers to stop them carrying on using a faulty design ?

Yeah right. Like they would want to know. The only time the makers would
listen is when the design is so truly abysmal that they have a warranty
issue.

Having in the past as an R&D director with a fairly well known electronics
company sat down for several days each quarter with the Q&A manager to get
on top of field reliability problems I think you will find those makers do
want to take note of the failures, though obviously attending to individual
complaints is much harder. But service centres and suchlike are a prime
source of good data for reliability analysis. It isn't just a case of
warranty issues, a reputation for dying after 'n' years is just as damaging
as people start believing you've actually designed it to be so.



Isn't that possibly part of the problem though? These are not
electronics companies, they're boiler manufacturers.
Maybe they'll employ a couple of EE's at best, or the design may well
be sub'ed out. The manufacture of the PCB's likely goes to the cheapest
CEM they can find.
There may well simply not be the skills necessary to understand the
issues of hi-rel with in the company.


You're thinking way toooo deeply here, and missing the profit element
coupled with the lack of foresight



The information contained in this post
may not be published in, or used by
http://www.diyprojects.info


--
geoff