Hi

I have posted a few question here about different things and I have
some more..(thanks again in advance)...

Ok, looks like I am going to change the boiler in the house for a
condensing type - not a combi - probably an 'unvented' system. This
has come from several recommendations as 'the best solution' - and
I'll be totally honest, I don't really understand how it all works!

I currently have a boiler that has two seperate rad circuits (two
outputs from the boiler) - each goes into a valve that is attached to
a room stat - I have one upstairs and one downstairs.

All my rads have 'yorkshire' style connections. I want to change all
the upstairs rads to have TRVs on them - so that when I convert the
loft (a few years away yet - and I'll want to fit a mains powered
shower in the loft), I can fit the same up there and be sure of a warm
room.

Downstairs I will want to add four rads to - which will heat a room in
the barn attached to the house. I am considering ditching the
yorkshire valves and fitting TRVs on all - so that the same circuit
can be used for the barn - which will also have TRVs - that way the
room stat is bypassed - else it would keep switiching the circuit off
while for example, the barn is still not up to temperature.

Anyway, I think this will work but can I ask a couple of questions....

1 I'm sure someone suggested it before - to remove the yorkshire
valves - is it simply a case of taking the valve off, revoming the
long tube that runs part way along the bottom of the rad, extneding
one of the water pipes to it attaches at the other end, and fitting a
TRV - or do I need new rads?

2 Just what is the best boiler? I'm not too fussed about £500
here or there - but I am not planning to move and my gas bills (mainly
heating) run to approx £70 per month (averaged out over 12 months). I
want an economical solution.....

I just can't seem to find any plumbers/gas fitters that are
experienced enough to recommend a solution - you lot have been more
help! I want to be able to decide for myself and then just task a
plumber with doing the job - with all the choices made...

Thanks again...

Simon

www.thehawthornes.org

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:53:30 +0000, Simon Hawthorne
wrote:

I just can't seem to find any plumbers/gas fitters that are
experienced enough to recommend a solution - you lot have been more
help! I want to be able to decide for myself and then just task a
plumber with doing the job - with all the choices made...

Sorry to reply to my own post - I should add that I have not, as of
yet done the calculations to determine just what size boiler I need -
but I will......!

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 20:53:30 +0000, Simon Hawthorne
wrote:

Hi

I have posted a few question here about different things and I have
some more..(thanks again in advance)...

Ok, looks like I am going to change the boiler in the house for a
condensing type - not a combi - probably an 'unvented' system. This
has come from several recommendations as 'the best solution' - and
I'll be totally honest, I don't really understand how it all works!

I currently have a boiler that has two seperate rad circuits (two
outputs from the boiler) - each goes into a valve that is attached to
a room stat - I have one upstairs and one downstairs.

All my rads have 'yorkshire' style connections. I want to change all
the upstairs rads to have TRVs on them - so that when I convert the
loft (a few years away yet - and I'll want to fit a mains powered
shower in the loft), I can fit the same up there and be sure of a warm
room.

Downstairs I will want to add four rads to - which will heat a room in
the barn attached to the house. I am considering ditching the
yorkshire valves and fitting TRVs on all - so that the same circuit
can be used for the barn - which will also have TRVs - that way the
room stat is bypassed - else it would keep switiching the circuit off
while for example, the barn is still not up to temperature.

Sounds OK so far. Certainly going for an unvented heating circuit
gets you out of any issues with radiators in the loft


Anyway, I think this will work but can I ask a couple of questions....

1 I'm sure someone suggested it before - to remove the yorkshire
valves - is it simply a case of taking the valve off, revoming the
long tube that runs part way along the bottom of the rad, extneding
one of the water pipes to it attaches at the other end, and fitting a
TRV - or do I need new rads?

They should be OK, assuming that a) they are not corroded, and b) that
at the end where the valve is now you can remove the fitting to leave
a female threaded hole and c) that at the opposite end there is a plug
which you can remove and also leave a threaded hole. You would then
screw a lockshield valve in at one end and a TRV at the other.
The microbore tube can be extended up and behind the radiator to
conceal it. If you can't see a way to fit the valves because they
are special radiators then you would need new ones.


2 Just what is the best boiler? I'm not too fussed about £500
here or there - but I am not planning to move and my gas bills (mainly
heating) run to approx £70 per month (averaged out over 12 months). I
want an economical solution.....

I just can't seem to find any plumbers/gas fitters that are
experienced enough to recommend a solution - you lot have been more
help! I want to be able to decide for myself and then just task a
plumber with doing the job - with all the choices made...

Given all of this, if you are not going to move then you can take a
long term view and go for a good quality boiler. In the area of
condensing boilers, all of the good quality ones modulate their heat
output, so as long as you have enough output to meet the needs of the
building, then sizing is not hugely critical as long as you don't go
mad.

I replaced my old Glow Worm boiler a year and a bit ago with a German
made MAN Micromat
(http://www.man-heiztechnik.de/_html_...e/micromat.php)
This is an excellent product, very solidly built, anything in contact
with condensate is stainless steel, modulates down to 3kW, models with
max outputs of 16kW to 76kW, outside temperature weather compensation,
etc.

I also looked at Keston Celsius 25 (25kW max), Worcester Bosch and
Vaillant. All of these are good products.






Thanks again...

Simon

www.thehawthornes.org




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Simon Hawthorne" wrote in message
news
Hi

I have posted a few question here about different things and I have
some more..(thanks again in advance)...

Ok, looks like I am going to change the boiler in the house for a
condensing type - not a combi - probably an 'unvented' system. This
has come from several recommendations as 'the best solution' - and
I'll be totally honest, I don't really understand how it all works!

I currently have a boiler that has two seperate rad circuits (two
outputs from the boiler) - each goes into a valve that is attached to
a room stat - I have one upstairs and one downstairs.

Two zones. Good Replace both with thermostat programmers, such as the
Honeywell CM67.

All my rads have 'yorkshire' style connections. I want to change all
the upstairs rads to have TRVs on them - so that when I convert the
loft (a few years away yet - and I'll want to fit a mains powered
shower in the loft), I can fit the same up there and be sure of a warm
room.

Use a heat bank Google uk.d-i-y on Pandora.

Downstairs I will want to add four rads to - which will heat a room in
the barn attached to the house. I am considering ditching the
yorkshire valves and fitting TRVs on all - so that the same circuit
can be used for the barn - which will also have TRVs - that way the
room stat is bypassed - else it would keep switiching the circuit off
while for example, the barn is still not up to temperature.

Anyway, I think this will work but can I ask a couple of questions....

1 I'm sure someone suggested it before - to remove the yorkshire
valves - is it simply a case of taking the valve off, revoming the
long tube that runs part way along the bottom of the rad, extneding
one of the water pipes to it attaches at the other end, and fitting a
TRV - or do I need new rads?

2 Just what is the best boiler? I'm not too fussed about £500
here or there - but I am not planning to move and my gas bills (mainly
heating) run to approx £70 per month (averaged out over 12 months). I
want an economical solution.....

The current Glow Worms are good and well priced.
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk, go to condensing boilers. They are
approx 104,000 BTU/hr and modulate right down. Quick recovery for a heat
bank and a one size fits all. You will save approx 30-40% in bills. What
size is the existing boiler?

I just can't seem to find any plumbers/gas fitters that are
experienced enough to recommend a solution - you lot have been more
help! I want to be able to decide for myself and then just task a
plumber with doing the job - with all the choices made...

Thanks again...

Simon

www.thehawthornes.org

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:29:13 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



The current Glow Worms are good and well priced.
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk, go to condensing boilers. They are
approx 104,000 BTU/hr and modulate right down. Quick recovery for a heat
bank and a one size fits all. You will save approx 30-40% in bills. What
size is the existing boiler?


40% is probably optimistic, but 30% is certainly possible.

The 30SXi is a 30kW boiler. This is a large property and heating is
being extended to other areas so more may be required.



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 00:29:13 -0000, "IMM" wrote:



The current Glow Worms are good and well priced.
http://www.discountedheating.co.uk, go to condensing boilers. They are
approx 104,000 BTU/hr and modulate right down. Quick recovery for a heat
bank and a one size fits all. You will save approx 30-40% in bills.
What
size is the existing boiler?


40% is probably optimistic, but 30% is certainly possible.

The 30SXi is a 30kW boiler. This is a large property and heating is
being extended to other areas so more may be required.

That's why I asked for the existing boiler size. If the property is being
renovated then extra insulation should be fitted, which will reduce the
heating load, which may mean the Glow Worms will be adequate.

In article ,
IMM wrote:
You will save approx 30-40% in bills.

What size is the existing boiler?

If you don't know the size/type of the existing boiler, how can you know
how much the bills will be reduced?

Pity the trades description acts don't apply hear...

--
*Everybody lies, but it doesn't matter since nobody listens.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:35:23 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Sounds OK so far. Certainly going for an unvented heating circuit
gets you out of any issues with radiators in the loft

Andy & co.....

Thanks for your replies so far....

Slightly off topic but you may be able to help. I am planning a new
water main into the upstairs of the barn - I need to bring a new feed
into the house anyway as my current main is 160'+ and in a lead pipe..
One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

Thanks again

Si

- so that the same circuit can be used for the barn - which will
also have TRVs - that way the room stat is bypassed - else it
would keep switiching the circuit off while for example, the barn
is still not up to temperature.

The barn has a sufficiently different usage profile and heat response
profile that if doing it myself, I would DEFINTELY put it on its own circuit
with a programmable thermostat. I would not share with any house circuit.
You can have as many zones as you like.

Christian.

One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

Electricity meters are easy enough to come by. Not sure about gas, but I
suspect so. You can also get CH meters. These measure the flow rate and
temperature difference of the flow and return pipes and calculate the kWh
used for heating.

Christian.

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 07:39:57 +0000, Simon Hawthorne
wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:35:23 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Sounds OK so far. Certainly going for an unvented heating circuit
gets you out of any issues with radiators in the loft

Andy & co.....

Thanks for your replies so far....

Slightly off topic but you may be able to help. I am planning a new
water main into the upstairs of the barn - I need to bring a new feed
into the house anyway as my current main is 160'+ and in a lead pipe..
One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

You can get gas meters from BES and electricity ones from TLC



Thanks again

Si


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:23:34 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

Electricity meters are easy enough to come by. Not sure about gas, but I
suspect so. You can also get CH meters. These measure the flow rate and
temperature difference of the flow and return pipes and calculate the kWh
used for heating.

Hmm. Do you know who has them?



Christian.


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

You can also get CH meters. These measure the flow rate and
temperature difference of the flow and return pipes and calculate
the kWh used for heating.

Hmm. Do you know who has them?

I can't remember where I saw it. Definitely in an online catalogue along the
lines of BES, but possibly not actually BES. It was marketed for small
blocks of flats and maisonettes to allow a central boiler with metered
heating for the individual flats. I can't think of what they would be called
to do a decent web search.

Christian.

"Simon Hawthorne" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 22:35:23 +0000, Andy Hall
wrote:

Sounds OK so far. Certainly going for an unvented heating circuit
gets you out of any issues with radiators in the loft

Andy & co.....

Thanks for your replies so far....

Slightly off topic but you may be able to help. I am planning a new
water main into the upstairs of the barn - I need to bring a new feed
into the house anyway as my current main is 160'+ and in a lead pipe..
One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

Thanks again

You can have a main meter and your own sub meters fitted for separate
properties.

How many baths, showers etc? Any idea of heat loss yet? I advise to
heavily insulate the barn.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

Electricity meters are easy enough to come by. Not sure about gas,

BES sell them.

but I
suspect so. You can also get CH meters. These measure the flow rate and
temperature difference of the flow and return pipes and calculate the kWh
used for heating.

Called thermal meters which are not cheap. If there are two properties, it
is best to have separate services, heating system, power, etc and meters.
It makes it easier to sell in the future and easier on billing.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
et...
You can also get CH meters. These measure the flow rate and
temperature difference of the flow and return pipes and calculate
the kWh used for heating.

Hmm. Do you know who has them?

I can't remember where I saw it. Definitely in an online catalogue along
the
lines of BES, but possibly not actually BES. It was marketed for small
blocks of flats and maisonettes to allow a central boiler with metered
heating for the individual flats. I can't think of what they would be
called
to do a decent web search.

Thermal meters

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:18:37 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

You can have as many zones as you like.

Thanks Christian - I think that was my worry. Any houses I've lived
in have had 1 CH circuit - and this one has 2. Is it a case of
fitting valves into the circuits to divide them up?

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 11:17:54 -0000, "IMM" wrote:


Called thermal meters which are not cheap. If there are two properties, it
is best to have separate services, heating system, power, etc and meters.
It makes it easier to sell in the future and easier on billing.

I'd considered that but I am not going to sell it. Worst case is it
will become a granny flat for myparents/in-laws one day. I am going
to keep the ground floor...

I like the idea of these thermal meteres though - I wonder how
accurate they are......?

S.

Thanks Christian - I think that was my worry. Any houses I've lived
in have had 1 CH circuit - and this one has 2. Is it a case of
fitting valves into the circuits to divide them up?

So far, my house has 3 zones. Tomorrow it will have another. In five years,
I expect it to have up to 6. All heating zones have programmable
thermostats. (Nice looking low profile Sunvic ones).

(Existing)
1. Downstairs CH radiators
2. Upstairs CH radiators
3. Heat bank (domestic hot water only)
(Imminent)
4. Kitchen fan convector
(Future)
5. Conservatory fan convector
6. Loft conversion CH radiators.

The locations of the valves do not have to be in the same place. The boiler
and the heat bank are in the loft. The hot water zone valve (3) is there and
the loft conversion zone (6) would follow. Unzoned trunk pipe goes down two
floors into the understairs cupboard where the radiator zone valves are to
be found (1+2). There is also an automatic bypass fitted here. The unzoned
trunk then continues into the kitchen, round the back of the fireplace and
under the units where kitchen zone valve (4) is already to be found,
disconnected. Valve (5) will probably join it in the not too distant future,
with the final leg in 15mm to the conservatory convector. The entire trunk
line is run in 22mm. Each circuit drops to 15mm straight after the zone
valve (except heat bank, which has a 22mm rapid recovery coil).

Christian.

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 10:23:34 -0000, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

Electricity meters are easy enough to come by. Not sure about gas, but I
suspect so. You can also get CH meters. These measure the flow rate and
temperature difference of the flow and return pipes and calculate the kWh
used for heating.

Hmm. Do you know who has them?

Try Control Centre

In article , IMM
writes

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net...
One thing I didn't really want to do was bring new electric and gas
feeds in - instead I'd like to fit a meter between the properties so I
can see exactly how much gas and leccy the office (first floor in
barn) has used.

Are there such devices out there, and if so, where....?

Electricity meters are easy enough to come by. Not sure about gas,

BES sell them.

but I
suspect so. You can also get CH meters. These measure the flow rate and
temperature difference of the flow and return pipes and calculate the kWh
used for heating.

Called thermal meters which are not cheap. If there are two properties, it
is best to have separate services, heating system, power, etc and meters.
It makes it easier to sell in the future and easier on billing.



I believe large parts of the ex-soviet union have thermal meters in
flats in those huge blocks - a quarter-turn on-off tap on the
gas supply to each flat, even cheaper than the vodka and bread :-)
--
Andrew