I will shortly be changing the position of my electrical sockets in one of
my bedrooms. Currently they are surface mounted sockets, but for neatness I
would like to take this opportunity to change them to flush fitting sockets.
When I have previously attempted to fix back boxes into walls on previous
jobs, I have always had problems getting the box square, and sitting flush
in the wall. I have previously only used a drill, hammer and bolster to
create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

Thanks in advance
Paul

On 27 Sep 2004 "Paul S" wrote:

I will shortly be changing the position of my electrical sockets in one of
my bedrooms. Currently they are surface mounted sockets, but for neatness I
would like to take this opportunity to change them to flush fitting sockets.
When I have previously attempted to fix back boxes into walls on previous
jobs, I have always had problems getting the box square, and sitting flush
in the wall. I have previously only used a drill, hammer and bolster to
create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

I've always done it the hard way. Mark out the position first and get
it level using a spirit level then score with a Stanley knife and
carefully remove the surface plaster. You can be a bit rougher taking
out the undercoat and brickwork (usually composite blocks on the inside
these days). The hole can be slightly oversize so you can level the box if
necessary. Check along a line between the screw holes. Make sure the box
goes in beyond the wall surface.

I stick the box in with Polyfiller and tap in a couple of galvanised
nails to hold it while it sets. Channelling is straightforward, but
again score the lines and take out the plaster a bit at a time with a
sharp chisel. Using a bolster is likely to crack the plaster where you
don't want it to crack.

--
Richard Porter
Mail to username ricp at domain minijem.plus.com
"You can't have Windows without pains."

create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets
that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or
has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

They are not worth the money for 1 hole and if your wall is brieze block or
cinder block the box sinker will rip the wall apart.

Focus do a frame that you screw to the wall. It has about 30 holes in it
that you drill through. When you unscrew it from the wall you get the right
size & shape hole. You'll need to use a bolster a bit but I find it much
easier to use than a box sinker and much cheaper.

In message , Andy Kelly
writes

create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets
that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or
has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

They are not worth the money for 1 hole and if your wall is brieze block or
cinder block the box sinker will rip the wall apart.

Focus do a frame that you screw to the wall. It has about 30 holes in it
that you drill through. When you unscrew it from the wall you get the right
size & shape hole. You'll need to use a bolster a bit but I find it much
easier to use than a box sinker and much cheaper.

Not worth it with an SDS IMO. I just use a chisel bit in the SDS drill
and chop out the whole using that, can do one in few minutes, usually
leaves a reasonably neat hole.

Two problem that are likely to occur are not being able to get a fixing
because of the nearness of joints to the fixing holes and chunks of
brick coming out making it hard to fix flat.

For the former I use a good dollop of No more Nails, push the box firm
into the whole, leave to go firm (takes a while) then plaster back in.

For the latter, I use a bit of quicksetting cement (plain mortar will
do though. Slap some in whole to make it up, push box into it, leave to
set- I usually push a couple of plugs into and then screw into them as
well when dry if no other fixing.
--
Chris French, Leeds

In article ,
Paul S wrote:
When I have previously attempted to fix back boxes into walls on
previous jobs, I have always had problems getting the box square, and
sitting flush in the wall. I have previously only used a drill, hammer
and bolster to create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these
Box Sinker Sets that fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and
they also are used to channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any
experience of using these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not
just for one job), or has anyone got any other tips for me to make the
job easier and neater.

I don't think it's worth the effort trying to make a neat hole - after all
the cables will ruin at least one side of it. Just make one big enough and
deep enough then make good afterwards. It's easier to make good moderate
sized gaps with a one coat plaster than mess about filling small ones with
pollyfilla.

If the wall material is crumbly, quick set cement is a good idea to hold
the box in place before making good - a chunk of wood laid up against it
at 45 degrees ish will hold it until it sets.

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"
I will shortly be changing the position of my electrical sockets in one of
my bedrooms. Currently they are surface mounted sockets, but for neatness
I
would like to take this opportunity to change them to flush fitting
sockets.
When I have previously attempted to fix back boxes into walls on previous
jobs, I have always had problems getting the box square, and sitting flush
in the wall. I have previously only used a drill, hammer and bolster to
create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets
that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or
has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

Thanks in advance
Paul


Very expensive just for one job. Really meant for a pro who will use it
daily. Get a template box from one of the sheds (Box with honeycomb spacing)
It will enable you to drill a neat outline of a socket box. For depth just
mark up a drill bit with the combined box depth and the intended depth of
the back box. I usually make the depth just a little bit more and shove in
some plaster prior to fitting the back box. Clear any excess . Saves a lot
of time in trying to get an exact depth for each box.




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In article ,
"Paul S" writes:
I will shortly be changing the position of my electrical sockets in one of
my bedrooms. Currently they are surface mounted sockets, but for neatness I
would like to take this opportunity to change them to flush fitting sockets.
When I have previously attempted to fix back boxes into walls on previous
jobs, I have always had problems getting the box square, and sitting flush
in the wall. I have previously only used a drill, hammer and bolster to
create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

I bought one. There are two types -- I bought the type which drills
a circular hole of the right diameter, and then you use a square
box attachment to make it square. The other type has lots of hardened
fingers in a share shape, which I've not tried.

I was drilling into house bricks and I worked out that the unit cost
about £5 per hole before it was knackered (too blunt to work anymore).
It did a speedy job and you get a nice flat back to the box (unless the
wall crumbles to pieces). It makes one hell of a mess -- basically the
volume of removed material gets turned into dust which is thrown into
the air and goes everywhere. The square frame part was completely
useless -- it would just jam in the wall. An SDS chisel was much better
for finishing off the box corners.

I wouldn't buy another one, unless I had a number of holes to do and
time saved was worth £5/box sunk. I doubt it would work on soft
material like thermal blocks. You have to drill a pilot hole first,
and a shaft on the hole borer has to be located in that hole to keep
the borer in the right place. If the pilot hole ends up near a mortar
line, it usually breaks through and you get a rather uncontrolled and
oversized box hole, and nothing at the back suitable to screw the box
into. I would imagine this would be much worse with thermal blocks.

I generally sink boxes by drilling postage stamp type perferation
pattern around the hole. I then run the drill in the holes diagonally
so it joins them up, and if the wall is soft enough, twist it back
straight and then diagonally in the other direction until all the
holes join up. Then take the centre out with a hammer and bolster
or SDS chisel bit. ~8 times out of 10 I can do this so no filler is
needed around the hole and the socket/switch plate completely covers
the cut edge. My score for perfect holes (need no filler) with a box
sinker was probably lowerer than 3 out of 10.

--
Andrew Gabriel

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Then take the centre out with a hammer and bolster
or SDS chisel bit. ~8 times out of 10 I can do this so no filler is
needed around the hole and the socket/switch plate completely covers
the cut edge. My score for perfect holes (need no filler) with a box
sinker was probably lowerer than 3 out of 10.

But surely you've got to make good where the wires cross the wall, so
what's the point of making the hole perfect?

--
*Yes, I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Then take the centre out with a hammer and bolster
or SDS chisel bit. ~8 times out of 10 I can do this so no filler is
needed around the hole and the socket/switch plate completely covers
the cut edge. My score for perfect holes (need no filler) with a box
sinker was probably lowerer than 3 out of 10.

But surely you've got to make good where the wires cross the wall, so
what's the point of making the hole perfect?

If you're looking to not make a mess, then you don't make the
wires cross the wall. You come through from the back, or drill
from the back of the hole steeply down to come out on the other
side under the floor, or maybe you're swapping out a single for
a double socket. For data/phone wires, I've used an 8mm 18" bit
to drill down from the bottom side of the box to under the floor,
and then drill into the wall under the floor to meet it with a
20-25mm bit so you can get your finger in to coax the wires out.

Sure, they'll be times you can't avoid channeling across a wall,
but often you can. even if you are channeling across the wall,
minimsing the repair work around the socket normally gives a
better result unless you are about to decorate the room anyway.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Paul S" wrote in message
...
I will shortly be changing the position of my electrical sockets in one of
my bedrooms. Currently they are surface mounted sockets, but for neatness
I
would like to take this opportunity to change them to flush fitting
sockets.
When I have previously attempted to fix back boxes into walls on previous
jobs, I have always had problems getting the box square, and sitting flush
in the wall. I have previously only used a drill, hammer and bolster to
create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets
that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or
has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

Thanks in advance
Paul

I agree with what most others seem to have said - an SDS drill with a chisel
attachment is a good way to do it. I recently did three in the bedroom into
solid brick without any trouble (there was an incident involving drilling a
fixing hole too deep and coming out the other side of an interior wall - but
that's another story!) - there was some making good to be done but by the
third one I got quite good and this was minimal. Again, as others have
said, there will be some making good required where the cable goes so
another bit around the box won't matter!

Another thing to bear in mind is that if you make sure the box is sunk
deeper than the surface then it doesn't really matter if the box is not
entirely flat or level - most boxes alow one or both of the screw holes to
move up and down alowing you to level the socket before tightening up - it
will also pull flush to the wall so even if the box is all to cock it will
probably look okay in the end (unless you really bugger it up!)

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
But surely you've got to make good where the wires cross the wall, so
what's the point of making the hole perfect?

If you're looking to not make a mess, then you don't make the
wires cross the wall. You come through from the back, or drill
from the back of the hole steeply down to come out on the other
side under the floor, or maybe you're swapping out a single for
a double socket. For data/phone wires, I've used an 8mm 18" bit
to drill down from the bottom side of the box to under the floor,
and then drill into the wall under the floor to meet it with a
20-25mm bit so you can get your finger in to coax the wires out.

Of course there are instances where this might be possible, but in general
you'll be needing to route two 2 X 2.5 TW&E The chances of making holes
for these from the box cut out to under the floor I'd say is near zero. ;-)

--
*Gravity is a myth, the earth sucks *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Ric wrote:
I recently did three in the bedroom into solid brick without any
trouble (there was an incident involving drilling a fixing hole too
deep and coming out the other side of an interior wall - but that's
another story!) -

Ideal time to fit that additional socket in there too, then, ;-)

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" writes:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
But surely you've got to make good where the wires cross the wall, so
what's the point of making the hole perfect?

If you're looking to not make a mess, then you don't make the
wires cross the wall. You come through from the back, or drill
from the back of the hole steeply down to come out on the other
side under the floor, or maybe you're swapping out a single for
a double socket. For data/phone wires, I've used an 8mm 18" bit
to drill down from the bottom side of the box to under the floor,
and then drill into the wall under the floor to meet it with a
20-25mm bit so you can get your finger in to coax the wires out.

Of course there are instances where this might be possible, but in general
you'll be needing to route two 2 X 2.5 TW&E The chances of making holes
for these from the box cut out to under the floor I'd say is near zero. ;-)

In thermal blocks, it's easy.
In anything else, it's a lot less likely to work.

--
Andrew Gabriel

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ric wrote:
I recently did three in the bedroom into solid brick without any
trouble (there was an incident involving drilling a fixing hole too
deep and coming out the other side of an interior wall - but that's
another story!) -

Ideal time to fit that additional socket in there too, then, ;-)

Can't really think of a use for a socket halfway up the stairs!

--
*Time is what keeps everything from happening at once.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| I recently did three in the bedroom into solid brick without
| any trouble (there was an incident involving drilling a fixing
| hole too deep and coming out the other side of an interior
| wall - but that's another story!) -
| Ideal time to fit that additional socket in there too, then, ;-)

Unless you're in a semi. I'm not having Them Next Door using my lectric.

Owain

"Ric" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ric wrote:
I recently did three in the bedroom into solid brick without any
trouble (there was an incident involving drilling a fixing hole too
deep and coming out the other side of an interior wall - but that's
another story!) -

Ideal time to fit that additional socket in there too, then, ;-)

Can't really think of a use for a socket halfway up the stairs!


I can.
You have obviously never lived in a large 'Victorian' house, with 12 - 15 ft
ceilings, half landings are common and can be some distance from other
electrical outlets were a vacuum cleaner etc can be plugged into.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| I recently did three in the bedroom into solid brick without
| any trouble (there was an incident involving drilling a fixing
| hole too deep and coming out the other side of an interior
| wall - but that's another story!) -
| Ideal time to fit that additional socket in there too, then, ;-)

Unless you're in a semi. I'm not having Them Next Door using my lectric.

Would be handy the other way round - I think I would just disconnect the
ring at the CU and loop into theirs

Owain

":::Jerry::::" wrote in message
...

"Ric" wrote in message
...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Ric wrote:
I recently did three in the bedroom into solid brick without any
trouble (there was an incident involving drilling a fixing hole too
deep and coming out the other side of an interior wall - but that's
another story!) -

Ideal time to fit that additional socket in there too, then, ;-)

Can't really think of a use for a socket halfway up the stairs!


I can.
You have obviously never lived in a large 'Victorian' house, with 12 - 15
ft
ceilings, half landings are common and can be some distance from other
electrical outlets were a vacuum cleaner etc can be plugged into.


You took the words out of my mouth ...,
we inherited a socket half-way-up-the stairs too; it's
ideal for plugging in the vacuum cleaner and at
Christmas time comes into its one for plugging
in the hall's fairy-lights.

--

Brian

In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote:
Ideal time to fit that additional socket in there too, then, ;-)

Can't really think of a use for a socket halfway up the stairs!


I can. You have obviously never lived in a large 'Victorian' house, with
12 - 15 ft ceilings, half landings are common and can be some distance
from other electrical outlets were a vacuum cleaner etc can be plugged
into.

It's totally absolutely impossible to have too many sockets.

--
*Am I ambivalent? Well, yes and no.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , "Paul S"
says...
I will shortly be changing the position of my electrical sockets in one of
my bedrooms. Currently they are surface mounted sockets, but for neatness I
would like to take this opportunity to change them to flush fitting sockets.
When I have previously attempted to fix back boxes into walls on previous
jobs, I have always had problems getting the box square, and sitting flush
in the wall. I have previously only used a drill, hammer and bolster to
create the hole for the box. Recently I have seen these Box Sinker Sets that
fit to an SDS drill to create a perfect hole and they also are used to
channel the wall out for the cable, has anyone any experience of using
these? If so, are they worth the investment? (not just for one job), or has
anyone got any other tips for me to make the job easier and neater.

Make the hole too big (and too deep), whack in some Polyfilla, press the
box into position and support it with something until the filler sets.
The last bit is the trickiest, so figure out how you're going to do it
before you mix the filler :-)

In article ,
Rob Morley wrote:
Make the hole too big (and too deep), whack in some Polyfilla, press the
box into position and support it with something until the filler sets.

Why not use quick set mortar? Quicker, cheaper and stronger.

--
*Re-elect nobody

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
says...
In article ,
Rob Morley wrote:
Make the hole too big (and too deep), whack in some Polyfilla, press the
box into position and support it with something until the filler sets.

Why not use quick set mortar? Quicker, cheaper and stronger.

Why not indeed - I tend to use whatever I have lying around (browning,
mortar ...). But if you're careful with the Polyfilla you won't need to
do any other finishing.

In article ,
Rob Morley wrote:
Why not indeed - I tend to use whatever I have lying around (browning,
mortar ...). But if you're careful with the Polyfilla you won't need to
do any other finishing.

Eh? Pollyfilla that thick will take for ever to dry - and shrink anyway.

--
*If all the world is a stage, where is the audience sitting?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
says...
In article ,
Rob Morley wrote:
Why not indeed - I tend to use whatever I have lying around (browning,
mortar ...). But if you're careful with the Polyfilla you won't need to
do any other finishing.

Eh? Pollyfilla that thick will take for ever to dry - and shrink anyway.

How thick?

In article ,
Rob Morley wrote:
Eh? Pollyfilla that thick will take for ever to dry - and shrink
anyway.

How thick?

Thick enough to use to hold the box in place properly. Or anything other
than a thin coat - it dries in air rather than a chemical reaction like
mortar.

--
*Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
says...
In article ,
Rob Morley wrote:
Eh? Pollyfilla that thick will take for ever to dry - and shrink
anyway.

How thick?

Thick enough to use to hold the box in place properly. Or anything other
than a thin coat - it dries in air rather than a chemical reaction like
mortar.

It doesn't need to be very thick (unless you've made the hole much too
big) and the surounding masonry draws the moisture away quite
effectively.