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Default EICR

Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.
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On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:22:33 +0100, Grumps wrote:

Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


Perhaps he thought the heaters were 1kW.
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On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:22:33 +0100, Grumps wrote:

Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


I would just turn them on and if they trip out, phone the electrician
and tell him there must be a fault with his work.
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On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


A 16A MCB and 1.5mm T&E may be fine but there are other factors to consider.

Length of cable and thermal insulation around the cable are two things
that might affect the choice of MCB.

Of course if he fits 6A MCBs then they will trip (maybe not the 1500W ones).

Without knowing his reasons I could only guess.

Of course 10A MCBs are available which might be suitable (if 16A is for
some reason not) and they would not trip with a 2kW heater.

Keep us updated.

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If they are the Infra red type they can be as low as750 watt, like the two I
have, and I think they are wired into the upstairs lighting circuit.
Brian

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"jon" wrote in message ...
On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:22:33 +0100, Grumps wrote:

Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


Perhaps he thought the heaters were 1kW.





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Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act accordingly and
let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so adversarial
is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him another time we all
make errors.

Brian

--

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The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:22:33 +0100, Grumps wrote:

Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


I would just turn them on and if they trip out, phone the electrician
and tell him there must be a fault with his work.



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On 28/05/2021 17:53, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:22:33 +0100, Grumps wrote:

Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


I would just turn them on and if they trip out, phone the electrician
and tell him there must be a fault with his work.


I have a gut feeling that the tenant may be playing Chinese whispers.

They are not usually the most reliable people to pass on the correct
information.

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On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act accordingly and
let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so adversarial
is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him another time we all
make errors.

Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not
trying to tell him how to do his job. If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.
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On 29/05/2021 09:44, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act accordingly and
let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so adversarial
is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him another time we all
make errors.

Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not
trying to tell him how to do his job.





If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.



My mother would:-)



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In article , Scott
wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:


Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act accordingly
and let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so
adversarial is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him
another time we all make errors.

Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not trying
to tell him how to do his job. If you went to the doctor, you would
describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do this and
this.


The nearby village hall had an installed stage dimmer and lights fed off a
45A breaker. I was called in since fading up more than one light tripped
the breaker. It turned out that the 'professional' who did their safety
check changed the 45A breaker for a 6A one. "It's lighting, that only needs
a 6A breaker!"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle


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"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act accordingly
and
let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so
adversarial
is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him another time we
all
make errors.

Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not
trying to tell him how to do his job. If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.


I have in fact done that a number of times when my GP
has failed to find a pulse in my ankles and my physician
had pointed out that with some people the arterys are
too deep in the ankle and you need to check for a pulse
on the top of the foot and when he does that he can
find the pulse fine. I have in fact needed to do that
more than once.

I continue to use him because he is brilliant with small
skin cancers that need minor surgery and he is quite
happy to agree when I pull him up on stuff like that.

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Default More Heavy Trolling by the Nym-Shifting Senile Australian Pest!

On Sat, 29 May 2021 19:52:15 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not
trying to tell him how to do his job. If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.


I have in fact done that a number of times when my GP


Nobody's surprised! Wanna BET that even your GP finds you are an obnoxious
pigheaded pest, senile Rodent?

--
Xeno to senile Rodent:
"You're a sad old man Rod, truly sad."
MID:
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On 29/05/2021 09:55, ARW wrote:
On 29/05/2021 09:44, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act
accordingly and
let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so
adversarial
is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him another time
we all
make errors.

Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not
trying to tell him how to do his job.





If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms.* You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.



My mother would:-)




Yorkshire lass ?
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On 29/05/2021 12:27, Andrew wrote:
On 29/05/2021 09:55, ARW wrote:
On 29/05/2021 09:44, Scott wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act
accordingly and
let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so
adversarial
is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him another
time we all
make errors.

Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not
trying to tell him how to do his job.





If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms.* You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.



My mother would:-)




Yorkshire lass ?


Yes and an ex nurse.

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On 29/05/2021 10:19, charles wrote:
In article , Scott
wrote:
On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:


Surely one could just assume they are what they are and act accordingly
and let him know why you did not do the change. After all its not so
adversarial is it? You don't want to upset him, in case you need him
another time we all make errors.

Not adversarial, just leaving the job to the professionals and not trying
to tell him how to do his job. If you went to the doctor, you would
describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do this and
this.


The nearby village hall had an installed stage dimmer and lights fed off a
45A breaker. I was called in since fading up more than one light tripped
the breaker. It turned out that the 'professional' who did their safety
check changed the 45A breaker for a 6A one. "It's lighting, that only needs
a 6A breaker!"



I switched off a 32A "Kitchen sockets" MCB yesterday.

All the lights over the ice rink went out and the microwaves in the
kitchen stayed on.

--
Adam


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On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:44:16 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

snip If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.


I have been know :-)

I had one ask me what I wanted her to do re my 'condition'.

Younger ones may not be so keen I suppose ...

Avpx

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On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?


What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?


It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


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John.

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On 29/05/2021 09:19, ARW wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:53, Scott wrote:
On Fri, 28 May 2021 17:22:33 +0100, Grumps wrote:

Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


I would just turn them on and if they trip out, phone the electrician
and tell him there must be a fault with his work.


I have a gut feeling that the tenant may be playing Chinese whispers.

They are not usually the most reliable people to pass on the correct
information.


+1


Yup too easy for nuance to get lost, or a subtle change of wording that
has no real effect in plain English, take on a different meaning in
technical lingo.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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On 28/05/2021 18:42, ARW wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back
to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not
be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


A 16A MCB and 1.5mm T&E may be fine but there are other factors to
consider.

Length of cable and thermal insulation around the cable are two things
that might affect the choice of MCB.

Of course if he fits 6A MCBs then they will trip (maybe not the 1500W
ones).

Without knowing his reasons I could only guess.

Of course 10A MCBs are available which might be suitable (if 16A is for
some reason not) and they would not trip with a 2kW heater.

Keep us updated.


So, I had a quick visit to the property (still haven't got the full EICR
yet) and had a look at the wiring behind the FCU. Well would you believe
it, it's almost certainly only 1.5mm2. I measured the cable (with my
trusty plastic vernier) and it was a little more than 8mm but much less
than 10mm.

I don't have any edition of the regs but I do see table 4D1A (which is
probably for most domestic situations) that shows max capacity of 1.5mm2
cable as 14.5A (cable is plastered into the wall).

So the electrician was partly right I think. 16A MCB is too much, but
his suggestion of 6A would be too little. When I get the report I'll
have a chat and hopefully come to a compromise of using 10A MCBs.

The property was re-wired in 2004. Would (or did) the regs change or did
the original installer make a mistake?
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On Sun, 30 May 2021 16:35:05 +0100, Grumps wrote:

I don't have any edition of the regs but I do see table 4D1A (which is
probably for most domestic situations) that shows max capacity of 1.5mm2
cable as 14.5A (cable is plastered into the wall).

So the electrician was partly right I think. 16A MCB is too much, but
his suggestion of 6A would be too little. When I get the report I'll
have a chat and hopefully come to a compromise of using 10A MCBs.


Are the heaters supplied by a Fused Connector? And, is each on its own
cicruit?
If so, no need to downrate the circuit breakers, as there is overload
protection at the far end, via the fuse. Fault protection may need to be
checked with a 1mm CPC.


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On 30/05/2021 16:35, Grumps wrote:
On 28/05/2021 18:42, ARW wrote:


Of course 10A MCBs are available which might be suitable (if 16A is
for some reason not) and they would not trip with a 2kW heater.

Keep us updated.


So, I had a quick visit to the property (still haven't got the full EICR
yet) and had a look at the wiring behind the FCU. Well would you believe
it, it's almost certainly only 1.5mm2. I measured the cable (with my
trusty plastic vernier) and it was a little more than 8mm but much less
than 10mm.

I don't have any edition of the regs but I do see table 4D1A (which is
probably for most domestic situations) that shows max capacity of 1.5mm2
cable as 14.5A (cable is plastered into the wall).


I think you are looking at the wrong installation reference method.
"Buried in masonry" is treated as method C, same as "clipped direct". So
on current draw alone 20A would be a closer estimation. (there may be
voltage drop issues if the cable is long) See:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...#Metric_Cables


So the electrician was partly right I think. 16A MCB is too much, but
his suggestion of 6A would be too little. When I get the report I'll
have a chat and hopefully come to a compromise of using 10A MCBs.


I would argue that 16A is fine for a number of reasons. Primarily, the
MCB only *has* to provide fault protection at the origin of the circuit,
not necessarily overload protection - that can be done elsewhere (a spur
on a 32A ring circuit being a prime example - the 32A MCB will not
provide overload protection for a single length of 2.5mm^2).

You seem to have adequate overload protection via two means - firstly by
selection of power consumption of the appliance - since this is hard
wired you don't have to consider someone "plugging in" a too heavy load.

Secondly you mention a FCU. That kind of implies a 13A fuse is the
highest that can be fitted there, and that will also prevent overload on
the cable.

The property was re-wired in 2004. Would (or did) the regs change


They have changed in that time (from the 16th to the 18th edition - so
new rules on RCD protection, and maximum permitted earth loop impedance
Cmin factiors[1])), but not in ways that would have a bearing here.


or did
the original installer make a mistake?



Not really - just engineered it to meet the requirements without any
additional overspend or overbuild.

[1]

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...2C_Cmin_factor

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...-_17th_edition


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
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On 30/05/2021 19:00, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/05/2021 16:35, Grumps wrote:
On 28/05/2021 18:42, ARW wrote:


Of course 10A MCBs are available which might be suitable (if 16A is
for some reason not) and they would not trip with a 2kW heater.

Keep us updated.


So, I had a quick visit to the property (still haven't got the full
EICR yet) and had a look at the wiring behind the FCU. Well would you
believe it, it's almost certainly only 1.5mm2. I measured the cable
(with my trusty plastic vernier) and it was a little more than 8mm but
much less than 10mm.

I don't have any edition of the regs but I do see table 4D1A (which is
probably for most domestic situations) that shows max capacity of
1.5mm2 cable as 14.5A (cable is plastered into the wall).


I think you are looking at the wrong installation reference method.
"Buried in masonry" is treated as method C, same as "clipped direct". So
on current draw alone 20A would be a closer estimation. (there may be
voltage drop issues if the cable is long) See:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...#Metric_Cables


So the electrician was partly right I think. 16A MCB is too much, but
his suggestion of 6A would be too little. When I get the report I'll
have a chat and hopefully come to a compromise of using 10A MCBs.


I would argue that 16A is fine for a number of reasons. Primarily, the
MCB only *has* to provide fault protection at the origin of the circuit,
not necessarily overload protection - that can be done elsewhere (a spur
on a 32A ring circuit being a prime example - the 32A MCB will not
provide overload protection for a single length of 2.5mm^2).

You seem to have adequate overload protection via two means - firstly by
selection of power consumption of the appliance - since this is hard
wired you don't have to consider someone "plugging in" a too heavy load.

Secondly you mention a FCU. That kind of implies a 13A fuse is the
highest that can be fitted there, and that will also prevent overload on
the cable.

The property was re-wired in 2004. Would (or did) the regs change


They have changed in that time (from the 16th to the 18th edition - so
new rules on RCD protection, and maximum permitted earth loop impedance
Cmin factiors[1])), but not in ways that would have a bearing here.


or did the original installer make a mistake?



Not really - just engineered it to meet the requirements without any
additional overspend or overbuild.

[1]

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...2C_Cmin_factor


http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...-_17th_edition


Thanks for the wiki link. Very concise information.
So the cable run leading to the FCU is method C (buried in plaster in
this case), but perhaps the electrician has determined that some parts
of the run are in the ceiling space and probably that would mean method
100 or 101 applies. Either way, the 13A fuse in the FCU should make any
method acceptable except 103.
Voltage drop would not be an issue either.
Looks like I'll have to wait for the report.
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On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back to
me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not be
with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4 years
ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


I'm tempted to contact him before he publishes his report as I believe a
copy of a failing report also goes to the Local Authority. It might be
less embarrassing for all if you explain why in some instances 6A MCB
wouldn't be suitable.

Also check if a 10A is available for your CU.
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On 31/05/2021 01:40, Fredxx wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back
to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not
be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?
He has a good review rating and was booked via myconstructor web site.
The sparks I've used before is on holiday (whatever one of those is)
which is why I went to that web site.
Ta.


I'm tempted to contact him before he publishes his report as I believe a
copy of a failing report also goes to the Local Authority. It might be
less embarrassing for all if you explain why in some instances 6A MCB
wouldn't be suitable.

Also check if a 10A is available for your CU.


I have sent him a text. It is a bank holiday so won't call him and won't
expect a reply until tomorrow.
I wanted to get some of my facts right before questioning his reasoning
for the MCB change. I now have the wiki to refer to (thanks John Rumm)
so won't sound like a complete idiot!

Yep, I'm sure the report will go to the LA, but eventually if work needs
to be done, or he needs to make a correction, then that will also go to
the LA.

And yes, 10A MCBs are available for this CU at just £3 each.
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On Sat, 29 May 2021 12:13:19 GMT, The Nomad
wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:44:16 +0100, Scott
wrote:

On Sat, 29 May 2021 09:03:22 +0100, "Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)"
wrote:

snip If you went to the doctor, you
would describe the symptoms. You would not go in saying you should do
this and this.


I have been know :-)

I had one ask me what I wanted her to do re my 'condition'.

Younger ones may not be so keen I suppose ...

That was what used to happen with hay fever medication before it was
taken off prescription. It started as 'I see last year you had A and
B. Did this work? Good. I'll give your the same again this year'
and eventually evolved to 'I always get A and B and it works well'. No
further questions - prescription in hand.


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On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back
to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not
be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should be
good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?


What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?


It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?
Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?

The electrician quote to "mend" this is £205 inc VAT.
Ta.
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On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back
to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not
be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?


What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?


It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.


Just for clarity, is it 4 MCBs for 5 heaters?

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?



Assuming the MCB is rated to take 3 x 1.5mm cables (and I can't think
why it wouldn't be) I wonder if the argument is that there is
insufficient resilience (Reg 314's "314.1 Every installation shall be
divided into circuits, as necessary, to: (i) avoid danger and minimize
inconvenience in the event of a fault...").

Which lights are on that MCB and which on separate circuits?


Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?


I wonder if that "Method 100" will become a typo for "Method 101" in
response to questions


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
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On 01/06/2021 11:27, Robin wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.


Just for clarity, is it 4 MCBs for 5 heaters?


5 MCBs; 4 are for heaters and one for a towel rail.

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?



Assuming the MCB is rated to take 3 x 1.5mm cables (and I can't think
why it wouldn't be) I wonder if the argument is that there is
insufficient resilience (Reg 314's "314.1 Every installation shall be
divided into circuits, as necessary, to: (i) avoid danger and minimize
inconvenience in the event of a fault...").

Which lights are on that MCB and which on separate circuits?


Bathroom lights are on that MCB.

Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?


I wonder if that "Method 100" will become a typo for "Method 101" in
response to questions


Yep, I think it might

Maybe I should just say "sod it" and pay the £205. Although I do like a
bit of a discussion/argument if I have some firm facts on my side.
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On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back
to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not
be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?


What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?


It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?
Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?

The electrician quote to "mend" this is £205 inc VAT.
Ta.


And finally, from the electrician...

6242Y PVC/PVC COPPER CABLE is rated at approx 13amps it is therefore
good practice to downrate the mcbs from 16a to 10a to protect the cable

By replacing the mcbs from B type to C type this will reduce the risk of
nuisance tripping when the heaters click on and off at full load

It is poor electrical practice to have more than 1 circuit fed from 1
mcb to multiple circuits especially if not in the same location ,
therefore with a spare way on the board the circuit can be successfully
split
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On 01/06/2021 11:27, Robin wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.


Just for clarity, is it 4 MCBs for 5 heaters?

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?



Assuming the MCB is rated to take 3 x 1.5mm cables (and I can't think
why it wouldn't be) I wonder if the argument is that there is
insufficient resilience (Reg 314's "314.1 Every installation shall be
divided into circuits, as necessary, to: (i) avoid danger and minimize
inconvenience in the event of a fault...").

Which lights are on that MCB and which on separate circuits?


Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?








I wonder if that "Method 100" will become a typo for "Method 101" in
response to questions



Well spotted Robin. It has to be method 101!

--
Adam


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On 01/06/2021 18:29, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 11:27, Robin wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A
MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.

I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.


Just for clarity, is it 4 MCBs for 5 heaters?

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?



Assuming the MCB is rated to take 3 x 1.5mm cables (and I can't think
why it wouldn't be) I wonder if the argument is that there is
insufficient resilience (Reg 314's "314.1 Every installation shall be
divided into circuits, as necessary, to: (i) avoid danger and minimize
inconvenience in the event of a fault...").

Which lights are on that MCB and which on separate circuits?


Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?








I wonder if that "Method 100" will become a typo for "Method 101" in
response to questions



Well spotted Robin. It has to be method 101!


I wouldn't mind if it was written 101 on the report, but he wrote 100.
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On 01/06/2021 13:49, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?
Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?

The electrician quote to "mend" this is £205 inc VAT.
Ta.


And finally, from the electrician...

6242Y PVC/PVC COPPER CABLE is rated at approx 13amps it is therefore
good practice to downrate the mcbs from 16a to 10a to protect the cable

By replacing the mcbs from B type to C type this will reduce the risk of
nuisance tripping when the heaters click on and off at full load



Your electrician meant (assumption) to say 1.5mm 6242Y cables is rated
at 13A using installation method 101. The CCC of 1.5mm using method 100
is 16A.

I can see why he has flagged it but there is nothing unsafe as long as
the end load only consists of a 13 fused spur. So yes it is good
practice to downrate the MCB if there is a chance someone uneducated
might alter the circuit.

It's probably better to get the MCBs swapped than have C3's or comments
on your EICR.

Note that the OSG does not give a guide for a 1.5mm 16A 101 installation
method radial circuit as it assumes a terminal load of 16A.





--
Adam
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On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following back
to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which might not
be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?


What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?


It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.


ok might be true...

The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.


So 1.5mm^2 should be fine (so long as they have a cable each, and not
one shared between the lot :-)


The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.


No sure what that is that supposed to mean? You don't size cables for
inrush current anyway. You might choose a MCB type to allow for loads
with excess inrush.

(what kind of heaters are they?)

Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?


You don't have three circuits on one breaker, you have just one radial
circuit that happens to have two branches at the origin. Nothing wrong
with that IMHO.

Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?


Can't see why not.

The electrician quote to "mend" this is £205 inc VAT.
Ta.



--
Cheers,

John.

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  #34   Report Post  
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On 01/06/2021 18:33, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 18:29, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 11:27, Robin wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters
are rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2
should be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W
ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A
MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.

I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.

Just for clarity, is it 4 MCBs for 5 heaters?

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?


Assuming the MCB is rated to take 3 x 1.5mm cables (and I can't think
why it wouldn't be) I wonder if the argument is that there is
insufficient resilience (Reg 314's "314.1 Every installation shall be
divided into circuits, as necessary, to: (i) avoid danger and
minimize inconvenience in the event of a fault...").

Which lights are on that MCB and which on separate circuits?


Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?







I wonder if that "Method 100" will become a typo for "Method 101" in
response to questions



Well spotted Robin. It has to be method 101!


I wouldn't mind if it was written 101 on the report, but he wrote 100.


Even at 101, I still can't see a problem if the FCU has a 13A fuse, and
there is a single hardwired appliance...

As it's hardwired it should only be changed by someone with a clue, that
is not going to try and stick a 4kW heater on it. Even if they did, the
fuse would save the day. The 16A MCB will more than adequately provide
fault protection for the cable unless its ridiculously long.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/
  #35   Report Post  
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Posts: 25,191
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On 01/06/2021 18:38, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 13:49, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A
MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.

I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.
The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.

The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.
Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?
Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?

The electrician quote to "mend" this is £205 inc VAT.
Ta.


And finally, from the electrician...

6242Y PVC/PVC COPPER CABLE is rated at approx 13amps it is therefore
good practice to downrate the mcbs from 16a to 10a to protect the cable

By replacing the mcbs from B type to C type this will reduce the risk
of nuisance tripping when the heaters click on and off at full load



Your electrician meant (assumption) to say 1.5mm 6242Y cables is rated
at 13A using installation method 101. The CCC of 1.5mm using method 100
is 16A.


Yup, either that or someone is going cross eyed looking at the table, or
can't measure insulation depth. :-)

I can see why he has flagged it but there is nothing unsafe as long as
the end load only consists of a 13 fused spur. So yes it is good
practice to downrate the MCB if there is a chance someone uneducated
might alter the circuit.

It's probably better to get the MCBs swapped than have C3's or comments
on your EICR.


Yup, from an engineering PoV, it's fine as it is, but from the pen
pushing PoV it's less hassle to swap them.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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\================================================= ================/


  #36   Report Post  
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ARW ARW is offline
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On 01/06/2021 18:33, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 18:29, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 11:27, Robin wrote:



Well spotted Robin. It has to be method 101!


I wouldn't mind if it was written 101 on the report, but he wrote 100.


Blame the secretary:-)

We once got back a report that asked us to change the circuit
designation from Lesbians bedroom to Leslie's bedroom.




--
Adam
  #37   Report Post  
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Posts: 99
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On 01/06/2021 19:24, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 18:33, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 18:29, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 11:27, Robin wrote:



Well spotted Robin. It has to be method 101!


I wouldn't mind if it was written 101 on the report, but he wrote 100.


Blame the secretary:-)

We once got back a report that asked us to change the circuit
designation from Lesbians bedroom to Leslie's bedroom.


Which one was correct?
  #38   Report Post  
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ARW ARW is offline
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Posts: 10,161
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On 01/06/2021 19:34, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 19:24, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 18:33, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 18:29, ARW wrote:
On 01/06/2021 11:27, Robin wrote:



Well spotted Robin. It has to be method 101!

I wouldn't mind if it was written 101 on the report, but he wrote 100.


Blame the secretary:-)

We once got back a report that asked us to change the circuit
designation from Lesbians bedroom to Leslie's bedroom.


Which one was correct?



When questions were asked the secretary was "correct".

Perks of being the MD's daughter IMHO.

All the best with your 10A MCBs fella if you go for it to keep him quiet
because it is method 101.

If it's method 100 you are free to go with 16A MCBs :-)



Cheers



--
Adam
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On 01/06/2021 18:54, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.


I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.


ok might be true...

The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.


So 1.5mm^2 should be fine (so long as they have a cable each, and not
one shared between the lot :-)


The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.


No sure what that is that supposed to mean? You don't size cables for
inrush current anyway. You might choose a MCB type to allow for loads
with excess inrush.

(what kind of heaters are they?)


They're Atlantic wall heaters. Don't know if that brand is common. I'd
assume nothing special, mainly resistive and not a significant inrush.
But what do I know!

Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?


You don't have three circuits on one breaker, you have just one radial
circuit that happens to have two branches at the origin. Nothing wrong
with that IMHO.

Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?


Can't see why not.

The electrician quote to "mend" this is £205 inc VAT.
Ta.


Looks like the path of least hassle is to pay him his £205 ransom.
  #40   Report Post  
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On 01/06/2021 20:21, Grumps wrote:
On 01/06/2021 18:54, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/06/2021 09:32, Grumps wrote:
On 29/05/2021 13:21, John Rumm wrote:
On 28/05/2021 17:22, Grumps wrote:
Hi,
I've just had an EICR performed on a property that I let. I wasn't
present during the test and my tenant has reported the following
back to me (I'm too impatient to wait for the full report which
might not be with me until the end of next week).

Apparently 4 16Amp MCBs need to be changed to 6Amp. Each MCB is
connected to just one wall-mounted electric heater. The heaters are
rated from 1500W to 2000W.
The last time I had a look at the wiring (when I decorated some 4
years ago), I'm sure it was 2.5mm2 from the MCB to each heater's FCU.
2.5mm2 and 16A MCBs are a good combination, yes? Even 1.5mm2 should
be good.

Surely if I get the 16A breakers swapped to 6A then that won't be
sufficient for a 2kW heater, and probably not even for the 1500W ones?

What possible reason would the electrician suggest swapping to 6A
MCBs?

It seems like you will need to wait for the proper report since
something does not add up here.

I have the full report now.

All circuits have been deemed to be reference method 100.


ok might be true...

The 5 heaters are on 1.5mm2 cable with 16A MCB.


So 1.5mm^2 should be fine (so long as they have a cable each, and not
one shared between the lot :-)


The failures are listed as:
3x 1.5mm cable in a 6A breaker (these are lights and smoke detectors).
Incorrect breaker sizes for heater circuits.

Recommended solution:
Downgrade MCBs to 10A C type for inrush protection of 1.5mm cables.


No sure what that is that supposed to mean? You don't size cables for
inrush current anyway. You might choose a MCB type to allow for loads
with excess inrush.

(what kind of heaters are they?)


They're Atlantic wall heaters. Don't know if that brand is common. I'd
assume nothing special, mainly resistive and not a significant inrush.
But what do I know!

Split the doubled up 6A circuit.

So my quick questions a
Are you not allowed to have 3 circuits in one breaker?


You don't have three circuits on one breaker, you have just one radial
circuit that happens to have two branches at the origin. Nothing wrong
with that IMHO.

Can you not protect 1.5mm2 ref method 100 wiring with a 16A breaker?


Can't see why not.

The electrician quote to "mend" this is £205 inc VAT.
Ta.


Looks like the path of least hassle is to pay him his £205 ransom.


I am afraid it looks likely.


Or set him up on a date with T i m 's daughter.

--
Adam
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