On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 09:44:08 +0100, wrote:

From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
“homogenous north European, white, male, elite”. The Times says several
institutions are adopting “inclusive assessments” and Hull University
says it will “challenge the status quo” by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.
If they can't write a decent CV they won't even get a job interview to
show how smart they might be, (by decent I mean not full of
grammatical or spelling errors).

At interview they will also be judged on their ability to communicate
effectively, which means a decent standard of spoken english (or other
language relevant to the county they are in).

On 12/04/2021 12:32, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:08:40 +0100, Another Dave
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 11:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Pig (Nordic) Swine(Germanic) and Pork (Romance/French) shows us the real
value of being able to say the same thing in a common vulgar way, and
unpleasant way, and a upper class Norman, toff, sort of way..


I think it's totally appropriate that we use German words for the animal
(cow, pig etc) for the animal and French for the food (beef, pork etc).

The latter being better for maintaining the cognitive dissonance when
people are buying a nicely presented and comodified chunk of flesh in
a packet from the supermarket.

The labels on said packets may show a 'happy pig' standing in a field
(that most pigs never see of course), not the unhappy pig thrashing
about, desperately trying to survive in the gas chamber or having it's
throat cut.

For someone who says they don't care about animal welfare during the
animals life I assume what you are posting is irony.

If you want to improve animal welfare standards there is plenty of
opportunity, but of course in reality you just want to stop us eating
meat as a healthy balanced diet.

They don't (or choose not to) consider that all 'pork' (/bacon) has to
come from individual, intelligent, social, trusting pigs.

Pigs are not intelligent.

If only all the words used around this whole 'industry' of animal
suffering, death and exploitation where more honest ...

If you want to improve animal welfare standards there is plenty of
opportunity, but of course in reality you just want to stop us eating
meat as a healthy balanced diet.

Earlier you lied and said you didn't have a killfile, let's see......

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 10:37:55 UTC+1, Spike wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:22, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:

From "The Week":

University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
'homogeneous north European, white, male, elite'. The Times says several
institutions are adopting 'inclusive assessments' and Hull University
says it will 'challenge the status quo' by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

snip Tell that to the grammar / spelling Police here! ;-)
Plenty of people have died due to medical staff not being able to read
or understand a doctor's notes.


I have read doctor's letters (specifically one copied to my partner about her then recent appointment) in which the consultant completely confused hyper- and hypo-.

Indeed, I often see that mistake being made by many doctors - GPs, registrars, and consultants - where the meaning really, really matters. Sometimes it is the patient mis-copying but sometimes a scan of the letter demonstrates that it was a mistake by the qualified medical person.

Possibly sometimes it is the medical secretary but the doctor is the person who signed it and is responsible.

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 14:19:03 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 13:36:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip


But then I guess that the focus (on technical content) may distract
from 'checking' for spelling (if they don't pop out at you). A classic
one seen here is 'teh' instead of 'the'?

I wonder if that is down to the brain being faster than being able to type.
Don;t forget that the keyboard is designed to slow typing down.

And while I'm here could you try the link below.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jcu9o06ph...41.23.png?dl=0

it was on facebook an image whose colour showns you whether you or right brained or left brained.
For me it was left brained, but also my computer was using it;s left processors as I ttried colour picking
and that too was a green colour, maybe my right processors are missing :-0

anyway let me know what you see.

The other thing I noticed was the annoying "UR" usage guess that will annoy you roo.



Back on the words / spelling thing, I am reminded constantly (TV and
ITRW) how many people *say* 'anythinK' but I wonder what percentage of
them would write is like that?

If I heard that I'd write it as anyfink.


And when young my parents corrected me if I ever said 'we was' and why
it seems so strange that so many people also seem to get that wrong?

Yes that is weird.



Cheers, T i m

On 12/04/2021 14:57, Davidm wrote:
(or other
language relevant to the *county* they are in).

Err, would that be Geordie, Yorkshire, Cornish ... ?
-sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 14:57:28 UTC+1, Davidm wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 09:44:08 +0100, wrote:

From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says several
institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull University
says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

As long as you get the subject matter correct it doesn't really matter whether you spell colour or color.
There are times when wrong spelling can be misleading though, but an inteligent person can
usually work it out for themselves.

If they can't write a decent CV they won't even get a job interview to
show how smart they might be, (by decent I mean not full of
grammatical or spelling errors).

Yes they will as you can employ someone to write a CV. Writing a CV is more of an art,
and it also depends on who's reading it.
Some only want single page CVs while others expect multipage listing everything,
while others aren't really intestesd in 11+ results.


At interview they will also be judged on their ability to communicate
effectively, which means a decent standard of spoken english (or other
language relevant to the county they are in).

Yes but that will vary depending on the job that needs doing.

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:18:53 UTC+1, wrote:
On 12/04/2021 14:57, Davidm wrote:
(or other
language relevant to the *county* they are in).

Err, would that be Geordie, Yorkshire, Cornish ... ?
-sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)

nah it's lundun init !

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:32:05 UTC+1, #Paul wrote:
NY wrote:
It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate from
someone who would have passed his A levels to get to university ...

When I went though secondary school, it was not uncommon for
pupils on the science/maths side of the distribution to have
dropped any subject that required them to write essays; just
as the other "humanities" group had dropped science and
maths subjects as soon as possible; naturally, this greatly
exacerbated the weaknesses of both groups.

#Paul

But at some point you have top specialise in your area of interest
I doubt many rocket scientists are experts in shakespeare.

One of our academics wants the department to employ a super-technician
one that knows everything about electronics and computer science, to help out in all areas
of teaching and research, she's been wanting such a person for a few years now.
Be interesting to see the job description with a starting salery of around £25K
and who applies.

On 12/04/2021 12:03, Paul wrote:
charles wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â* Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.
In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

Any time you're having trouble reaching a reagent
on the shelf, you can stand on a copy of this to
make you taller :-)Â* Mine is the 1973-1974 edition.

https://hackaday.com/wp-content/uplo.../12/crc600.png

Â*Â* Paul

The UK tax guide is over 21,000 pages.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tolleys-Yel.../dp/1474311067

On 12/04/2021 10:37, Spike wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:22, T i m wrote:
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:03:40 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:

From "The Week":

University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
'homogeneous north European, white, male, elite'. The Times says several
institutions are adopting 'inclusive assessments' and Hull University
says it will 'challenge the status quo' by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

snip Tell that to the grammar / spelling Police here! ;-)

Plenty of people have died due to medical staff not being able to read
or understand a doctor's notes.


even more have died or received poor treatment because the doctor
or surgeon made a simple mistake.

These days everything is digitised, including most if not all GP
prescriptions

On 12/04/2021 15:45, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:32:05 UTC+1, #Paul wrote:
NY wrote:
It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate from
someone who would have passed his A levels to get to university ...

When I went though secondary school, it was not uncommon for
pupils on the science/maths side of the distribution to have
dropped any subject that required them to write essays; just
as the other "humanities" group had dropped science and
maths subjects as soon as possible; naturally, this greatly
exacerbated the weaknesses of both groups.

#Paul

But at some point you have top specialise in your area of interest
I doubt many rocket scientists are experts in shakespeare.

One of our academics wants the department to employ a super-technician
one that knows everything about electronics and computer science, to help out in all areas
of teaching and research, she's been wanting such a person for a few years now.
Be interesting to see the job description with a starting salery of around £25K
and who applies.



An endless supply of bull****ters and hopeless hopefuls, people who
don't have the right to seek work in the UK , and those
with no experience at all and just want to get their first job.

On 12/04/2021 11:51, Spike wrote:
On 12/04/2021 10:22, Robin wrote:

I wonder if Hull and other universities have consulted potential
employers here and abroad. With English now the language of business as
well as science graduates from Hull might be at a disadvantage in the
jobs market compared with those from China, India etc who can spell and
write clearly.

Some 50 years ago a young Danish aeronautical engineer came to visit our
lab to discuss a problem of mutual interest, and attend the same
conference in London that we were going to. After the conference was
over we took him along to a pub. During the course of the evening I
commented that his English was very good. He put this down to the best
technical and scientific books and journals being written in English,
and if you wanted to progress you had to learn the language so they
could be read and understood.

didn't the bouncing Czech Robert Maxwell make his money initially
by buying up and translating thousands of technical papers from
Russian, Polish, ... into English ?.

On 12/04/2021 11:59, The Natural Philosopher wrote:


And where would we be without our bungalows and boomerangs?



And curries

On 12/04/2021 15:32, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:18:53 UTC+1, wrote:
On 12/04/2021 14:57, Davidm wrote:
(or other
language relevant to the *county* they are in).

Err, would that be Geordie, Yorkshire, Cornish ... ?
-sorry, I couldn't resist ;-)

nah it's lundun init !


lun'non . Surely the 'd' is missing from estuary 'english' ?

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:55:21 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 12/04/2021 15:45, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:32:05 UTC+1, #Paul wrote:
NY wrote:
It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate from
someone who would have passed his A levels to get to university ...

When I went though secondary school, it was not uncommon for
pupils on the science/maths side of the distribution to have
dropped any subject that required them to write essays; just
as the other "humanities" group had dropped science and
maths subjects as soon as possible; naturally, this greatly
exacerbated the weaknesses of both groups.

#Paul

But at some point you have top specialise in your area of interest
I doubt many rocket scientists are experts in shakespeare.

One of our academics wants the department to employ a super-technician
one that knows everything about electronics and computer science, to help out in all areas
of teaching and research, she's been wanting such a person for a few years now.
Be interesting to see the job description with a starting salery of around £25K
and who applies.


An endless supply of bull****ters and hopeless hopefuls, people who
don't have the right to seek work in the UK ,

Those will be easily weeded out, as they won;t even get an interview.

and those
with no experience at all and just want to get their first job.

we don't get many like that, if anything we get those that are over qualified
that's what happened last time we put a post up.

Here's a list which would you be qualified to do ?

https://webapps2.is.qmul.ac.uk/jobs/jobs.action

On 12/04/2021 16:09, whisky-dave wrote:


we don't get many like that, if anything we get those that are over qualified
that's what happened last time we put a post up.

Here's a list which would you be qualified to do ?

https://webapps2.is.qmul.ac.uk/jobs/jobs.action


Plus automatic membership of a nice juicy final salary pension
scheme (that is probably massively in deficit) ??

This was how American English had all the differences it has, though I have
to say, not all are bad. Reversing the or and e in centre is more sensible
for a start.
Incidentally, we Blind want to claim back the word to mean merely without
sight, not as its being used at the moment to mean ignorant which undermines
blind people.


I heard a politician the other day say we were blind to the details of the
problem until recently, which translates to we were ignorant of the details
until recently, Blind people are not ignorant, well no more than the rest of
the public at any rate. Blind drunk implies blind people stagger about as if
drunk, well not to my knowledge we don't.
Brian

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wrote in message
...
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as "homogenous
north European, white, male, elite". The Times says several institutions
are adopting "inclusive assessments" and Hull University says it will
"challenge the status quo" by dropping the requirement for a high level of
written and spoken English.

Yes but I also feel that in any customer facing job any applicant has to be
able to make themselves understood and not offend people by bad accents or
clumsy use of English. That is patently not the case at the moment when I
speak to customer services of companies on the phone and many healthcare
professionals. Its so easy to fix with some training, after all.
Also the clueless way these people approach disability as if its a problem
when its only a problem of their companies making in not considering
accessibility in the first place. Take for instance the lateral flow covid
test. Blind people cannot see the result yet it has been proved with
pregnancy tests that a tactile version is easy to make and produce for no
extra cost.
Brian

--

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"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
"homogenous north European, white, male, elite". The Times says several
institutions are adopting "inclusive assessments" and Hull University
says it will "challenge the status quo" by dropping the requirement for a
high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar, except
in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate a clear
understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test their
knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked down in
Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent grasp of
the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during other
exams.

On 12/04/2021 10:54 am, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

Learning chemistry also crucially includes learning how to spell the
terms used, many of which are only subtly different from each other.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
"homogenous north European, white, male, elite.. The Times says several
institutions are adopting "inclusive assessments. and Hull University
says it will "challenge the status quo. by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

MW or mW. It matters

But color or colour doesn't.

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says several
institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull University
says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked down
in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent grasp
of the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during other
exams.

It depends whether the poor spelling and grammar actually mar the
intelligibility. When I was at university in the early 80s, someone I knew
who was doing a computer-science course asked me to sanity-check a report
that he was writing, to see if it made *technical* sense. I remember it
because its title was "Huh! Interactive Languages Are Really Yuk" -
contrived to spell out Hilary, the name of his tutor whom I think he
fancied.

Well... the report took some wading through. There were spelling mistakes
all over, but I glossed over those: few of them made it difficult to
understand the report. What *did* cause great problems, to the extent that
I had real problems working out what he was trying to say, was his very
poor grammar and his partial sentences which petered out half way through.
It took me several hours to read a couple of pages, rather than a few
minutes. I found myself itching to rewrite the whole thing from the ground
up, if only to try and clarify in my own mind the gist of his report.

It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate from
someone who would have passed his A levels to get to university and who
spoke perfectly lucidly most of the time (apart from after a few pints,
but that applies to all of us!). Given the sneaky acronym in the title, I
almost wonder whether there was a secret code in his mistakes - the sort
of thing that Inspector Morse would spot in one of Colin Dexter's novels
;-)

I find it striking how many engineers are surprisingly
poor at expressing themselves clearly.

You can see it in here too.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

I did, those are the american spellings.

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 07:12:18 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

But then I guess that the focus (on technical content) may distract
from 'checking' for spelling (if they don't pop out at you). A classic
one seen here is 'teh' instead of 'the'?

I wonder if that is down to the brain being faster than being able to type.

Possibly?

Don;t forget that the keyboard is designed to slow typing down.

The 'qwerty' keyboard you mean ... I thought it was more to balance
the speed out (and so make it faster)?

And while I'm here could you try the link below.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jcu9o06ph...41.23.png?dl=0

it was on facebook an image whose colour showns you whether you or right brained or left brained.
For me it was left brained, but also my computer was using it;s left processors as I ttried colour picking
and that too was a green colour, maybe my right processors are missing :-0

anyway let me know what you see.

A trainer? ;-) Do you know anyone who sees any pink?

The other thing I noticed was the annoying "UR" usage guess that will annoy you roo.

Yeah, I've never really received that sort of thing. It's not wrong,
it's just an abbreviation, like m8 (I don't think I've ever sent that
either) and not really the same as 'we was' or 'anythink'.

Back on the words / spelling thing, I am reminded constantly (TV and
ITRW) how many people *say* 'anythinK' but I wonder what percentage of
them would write is like that?

If I heard that I'd write it as anyfink.

Only by those who might also say 'fink' and 'fought'. I've heard
several otherwise well-spoken people on the TV, presenters and the
like repeatedly saying 'anythink'. It's nearly as annoying as hearing
them say the letter H. ;-(


And when young my parents corrected me if I ever said 'we was' and why
it seems so strange that so many people also seem to get that wrong?

Yes that is weird.

And it's so commonly used in conversation so comes up pretty
frequently.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 06:58:52 -0700 (PDT), polygonum_on_google
wrote:
snip

I have read doctor's letters (specifically one copied to my partner about her then recent appointment) in which the consultant completely confused hyper- and hypo-.

Indeed, I often see that mistake being made by many doctors - GPs, registrars, and consultants - where the meaning really, really matters. Sometimes it is the patient mis-copying but sometimes a scan of the letter demonstrates that it was a mistake by the qualified medical person.

But how often would such a mistake remain confused when seen in
context?

Possibly sometimes it is the medical secretary but the doctor is the person who signed it and is responsible.

I think I'd be more worried if they didn't know their left from right
(and another thing that does seem quite common)?

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:25:22 +0100, #Paul wrote:

NY wrote:
It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate from
someone who would have passed his A levels to get to university ...

When I went though secondary school, it was not uncommon for pupils on
the science/maths side of the distribution to have dropped any subject
that required them to write essays; just as the other "humanities" group
had dropped science and maths subjects as soon as possible; naturally,
this greatly exacerbated the weaknesses of both groups.

I did a short lived A level called Physical Science (from Nuffield).

One requirement was knowing how to precis. We had weekly lessons from the
Head of English; it was quite good.

He used various popular science articles from newspapers. He said he
learned quite a lot!




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On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 08:09:33 -0700, whisky-dave wrote:

On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:55:21 UTC+1, Andrew wrote:
On 12/04/2021 15:45, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, 12 April 2021 at 15:32:05 UTC+1, #Paul wrote:
NY wrote:
It was quite a shock to read something which was *so* illiterate
from someone who would have passed his A levels to get to
university ...

When I went though secondary school, it was not uncommon for pupils
on the science/maths side of the distribution to have dropped any
subject that required them to write essays; just as the other
"humanities" group had dropped science and maths subjects as soon as
possible; naturally, this greatly exacerbated the weaknesses of both
groups.

#Paul

But at some point you have top specialise in your area of interest I
doubt many rocket scientists are experts in shakespeare.

One of our academics wants the department to employ a
super-technician one that knows everything about electronics and
computer science, to help out in all areas of teaching and research,
she's been wanting such a person for a few years now.
Be interesting to see the job description with a starting salery of
around £25K and who applies.


An endless supply of bull****ters and hopeless hopefuls, people who
don't have the right to seek work in the UK ,

Those will be easily weeded out, as they won;t even get an interview.

and those
with no experience at all and just want to get their first job.

we don't get many like that, if anything we get those that are over
qualified that's what happened last time we put a post up.

Here's a list which would you be qualified to do ?

https://webapps2.is.qmul.ac.uk/jobs/jobs.action

I could do the CS lecturer. But not for that money.


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My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 18:15:28 +0100, JNugent
wrote:

On 12/04/2021 10:54 am, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

Learning chemistry also crucially includes learning how to spell the
terms used, many of which are only subtly different from each other.

Ethane, ethene, ethyne, etc.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 03:24:50 +1000, "Rod Speed"
wrote:



"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

I did, those are the american spellings.

They are also the internationally standardized spellings now. Maybe
not in backwaters like Oz.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 03:24:50 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


could well be, I never learned chemisty

I did, those are the american spellings.

So what's with your notorious idiotic spelling of the plural of all nouns
ending in "y" as "ys", you clinically insane asshole?

--
Norman Wells addressing trolling senile Rodent:
"Ah, the voice of scum speaks."
MID:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 03:15:41 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


MW or mW. It matters

But color or colour doesn't.

Auto-contradicting senile sociopath! LOL

--
Kerr-Mudd,John addressing the auto-contradicting senile cretin:
"Auto-contradictor Rod is back! (in the KF)"
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 03:18:47 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:



I find it striking how many engineers are surprisingly
poor at expressing themselves clearly.

You can see it in here too.

Wheras your posts CLEARLY express that you ARE sick senile sociopathic
swine!

--
Marland answering senile Rodent's statement, "I don't leak":
"That¢s because so much **** and ****e emanates from your gob that there is
nothing left to exit normally, your arsehole has clammed shut through disuse
and the end of prick is only clear because you are such a ******."
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In article ,
JNugent wrote:
On 12/04/2021 10:54 am, charles wrote:
In article ,
Andy Burns wrote:
charles wrote:

Steve Walker wrote:

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages.

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

Sulfide or sulfate according to IUPAC

could well be, I never learned chemisty

Learning chemistry also crucially includes learning how to spell the
terms used, many of which are only subtly different from each other.

That was my real point.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

Andrew wrote:


The UK tax guide is over 21,000 pages.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tolleys-Yel.../dp/1474311067

Do you stand on that ?

Or start a fire with it ?

That's how I classify my book collection here,
best for standing, best for burning.

The CRC book is noteworthy, in having a "table of random numbers".
That usually leads to some funny looks from people, when
you tell them that. But that's not why you buy a copy.

I think it was supposed to have a million compounds
listed, and when I had a term project in analytical
chemistry, by doing a simple melting point, I was
able to narrow the list of possible compounds to
around 200. No fancy instruments like NMR and
Mass Spec needed, to get that far. Since the
sample I was given, decomposes with time, it
was very important to do the melting point right
away, so it would be accurate while the material
was pure. Then crack open the CRC tables and
go through the melting points, to the right section.
That's the only time it got used for the intended purpose.

If you want to learn chemistry, standing on that
book will elevate you.

In high school, we had "collectors items". You
had to buy a CRC tables. And a slide rule.
(Remember, these are nerds.) There were plenty of
hilarious scenes in class involving slide rules. Like,
one day, the teacher is doing something on the board,
that required dividing by two. We look across the room,
and one of the class geniuses has his slide rule out,
dividing by 2. It cracked up the class. Because most
of the students in the room, were quite capable of
dividing by 2 without "assistance". Then the look on
his face, when he figures out he was caught dividing by 2
on a slide rule. It's just like reaching for a
calculator, when you should be able to do stuff in
your head. Like adding zero to a number, and needing
a calculator to do it.

Paul

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 12/04/2021 11:22, Robin wrote:
On 12/04/2021 10:03, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
€œhomogenous north European, white, male, elite€�. The Times says several
institutions are adopting €œinclusive assessments€� and Hull University
says it will €œchallenge the status quo€� by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.


I wonder if Hull and other universities have consulted potential
employers here and abroad. With English now the language of business as
well as science graduates from Hull might be at a disadvantage in the
jobs market compared with those from China, India etc who can spell and
write clearly.


When Karoun Chandouk joined the Sky F1 commentary team, it was noticeable
that he was the only one who knew that the correct plural of 'apex; was
'apices'.

Its stupid to force all uni students to care about crap like that.

I have noticed that no one uses the plural cases of verbs. I think its
these pidgin spiking wogs which is the problem.;-)

And 'with' mas morphed via 'wiv' into ...'iv and then 'of'. so one is
'bored of' being 'fed up of'

Spike wrote
Robin wrote

I wonder if Hull and other universities have consulted potential
employers here and abroad. With English now the language of
business as well as science graduates from Hull might be at a
disadvantage in the jobs market compared with those from
China, India etc who can spell and write clearly.

Some 50 years ago a young Danish aeronautical engineer came to visit
our lab to discuss a problem of mutual interest, and attend the same
conference in London that we were going to. After the conference was
over we took him along to a pub. During the course of the evening I
commented that his English was very good. He put this down to the
best technical and scientific books and journals being written in English,
and if you wanted to progress you had to learn the language so they
could be read and understood.

With our dutch immigrants, their decent english was due to
the fact that hardly anyone produces much in the way of TV
programs in dutch, so they learned english that way.

Their accents could be a real problem tho.

If British universities are going to turn out educated
scientists and engineers that are otherwise semi-illiterate,
then the source of leading information will shift elsewhere

Bull**** it will with the language used.

and the country will sink that much lower.

Mindless silly stuff.

#Paul wrote:
charles wrote:
Why should someone be marked down in Physics, for poor spelling,
when they are showing an excellent grasp of the subject?
In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

I wouldn't mark down for bad spelling per se, but I do mark down for
lack of clarity, illegibility, or ambiguity (e.g. taking your example,
what should someone think the miselpting "sulphade" was?). I also
emphasise to students the need to make what they produce easy to
understand, so as to reduce the likelihood of misunderstanding by
either markers, or some putative future colleague or employer.

Generally, misspellings are not a significant issue; more interesting
is the students who can solve problems correctly ... whilst also
being more or less incapable of explaining how or why they managed
to do so :-)

#Paul

My experience is, you need people who have an innate
skill or interest in a topic.

In a chemist, you want someone who is three steps
ahead of you, when something is about to blow.

I had one guy in high school, who had that skill set.
He was a little too good as a chemist. But not someone
you'd hire, if there was a "background check" :-)
He lost his lab privileges one day, after blowing
the door off the fume hood. I have no idea what he
was thinking, because as an explosives expert, he had
plenty of other locales for that work. (Like any red-blooded
chemist, he was standing to the side of the hood, while
working on the explosive, so the door didn't hit him. A
book-learned student would have got the door right
in the face. He demonstrated for me, how he was
standing when it went off, and reaching around the
fume hood frame to do the work.)

He was also just a wee bit mentally unbalanced. The last
we heard of him, he was an alcoholic in university.
And fortunately, not my university :-) It's OK to be
an alcoholic in university, just not an explosives expert
with an alcohol problem.

One problem is, he could council others in the arts. For
one individual, that individual managed to burn his own house
down. For a second individual, that individual blew his
two hands off (while attempting to make Tovex). (I know the
story to be true, because my sister dated the guy with
no hands. Just the one date.)

Book-learned individuals, a great many graduate, not many
are all that "useful" in a pinch. He was the kind of
person, you could say "I have a pound of salt peter and
a box of crackers, what can I make ?". And he could tell you.
The book-learned individual would still be Googling "crackers"
when you checked back.

Paul

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:


"charles" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/04/2021 09:44, wrote:
From "The Week":
University tutors are being told not to mark down work for spelling
mistakes because insisting on correct English could be seen as
"homogenous north European, white, male, elite.. The Times says several
institutions are adopting "inclusive assessments. and Hull University
says it will "challenge the status quo. by dropping the requirement for
a high level of written and spoken English.

I have long thought it wrong to mark down for spelling and grammar,
except in languages. Exams/assessments are for candidates to demonstrate
a clear understanding and ability in their chosen subjects, not to test
their knowledge of a different subject. Why should someone be marked
down in Physics, for poor spelling, when they are showing an excellent
grasp of the subject?

In chemisty? Is ita sulphate or a sulphide?

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

MW or mW. It matters

But color or colour doesn't.

those two both mean the same thing

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 12 Apr 2021 11:23:15 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

snip

The pretty well universal requirement for GCSE English Language should
ensure that students and workers can spell use grammar reasonably
correctly (if they make the effort) and should not be tested during
other exams.

Just as well, otherwise I would have been well screwed in every subject!

Likewise.

Me too.

The thing is, 'some people' can just absorb this sort of (often)
un intuitive (eg, non phonetic) spelling whist others can't.

Yeah, its just the way the different memorys work.

You see it with scientists too. The biologists will tell
you about a specific paper with the names of the
authors, those from the hard sciences don't do that.

When I question our daughter (or the Mrs) *why* they can't remember
the route to somewhere they have been once, they ask me why I still
can't spell words I must have written thousands of times.

The reason I haven't 'remembered' is in many cases the same
reason I couldn't remember the mobile phone number I've
had for ~15 years (till very recently) it's because I didn't need
to because there were often ways of gleaning such that were
more reliable (spell checkers, phone books etc).

Not convinced about that with remembering routes,
its just effortless remembering the route for me.

I was stunned when a mate of mine asked if he could come with
me in his own car when I said I was going to visit the place I had
worked for for decades out of town after it had been taken over
by a different operation, because one of his relos worked for the
new operation and he wanted to visit him. I chose to leave earlier
than he would have preferred and I was stunned when he said
he would have to come back at the same time I did because
he wasn't sure he could get back to town in his own car by himself.

When I did English GCE, it was a split lit/lang course, where the lit
section was all essay based and done as course work (and at least 2 of
the essays had to be done under exam conditions). All the language parts
were in the final exams. Use of language and grammar were important in
all parts, but spelling was only marked in the language exam part.

I think I may have had similar in English 'O' level and
whilst I enjoyed the classes and got average marks,
I would often be let down by 'bad spelling'.

I didn't even notice that british english and american
english used s and z differently in words until spelling
checkers showed up and I was always a very big reader.

But what is bad spelling but an inability to remember
a sequence of letters, some of which don't follow any
tools used to take away any ambiguity?

And why does it matter if you spell it color or colour,
its always obvious what word you mean with that one.

And yes, I do notice when people use draw
when they mean drawer in social media posts
and never ever get that wrong myself.

When reading something (on a subject I have some knowledge of)
I will often spot anything that either doesn't make sense but may
well completely miss spelling mistakes on *some* words.

If I think that anyone else reading such might then
question the 'professionalism' of the writer (say on
their web / sales site) then I might feed such back in
case they might like to adjust what they had written.

The last was the Odroid N2+ I bought as the host for my Home
Assistant where the advert suggested that it 'came with' a part
in the 'bundle' when it actually did not (well, not included in the
price), making it slightly misleading / confusing. I mentioned this
in general pre sale correspondence and they confirmed it wasn't
as clear as it could be and they would feed it back to the marketing
/ web boys (not that they seem to have changed it yet). ;-)

https://www.odroid.co.uk/Home-Automa...roduct_id=1058

"What's in the bundle

Black Metal powder-coated case
ODROID N2+ with 4GByte RAM
eMMC Card storage with Home Assistant pre-installed
RTC backup battery
Power adapter (12V/2A)

Storage 1 x eMMC connector 1 x microSD slot (DS/HS
modes up to UHS-I SDR104) - eMMC cARD Preinstalled"

Except, no eMMC card is included in the 'price' bundle at all so
maybe the headline price should read 'Starting from and the price
of the smallest card'? However, I don't think you can complete
the order without selecting at least one from the list of capacities.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 04:43:10 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


When Karoun Chandouk joined the Sky F1 commentary team, it was noticeable
that he was the only one who knew that the correct plural of 'apex; was
'apices'.

Its stupid to force all uni students to care about crap like that.

Now ALSO an expert on what students have to learn, you clinically insane
asshole?

--
John addressing the senile Australian pest:
"You are a complete idiot. But you make me larf. LOL"
MID:

On Tue, 13 Apr 2021 04:52:25 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


FLUSH more of the trolling senile asshole's latest troll**** unread

--
Richard about senile Rodent:
"Rod Speed, a bare faced pig and ignorant ****."
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