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| UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Why are electrical cables and flex different colours?
Dumb question I know, especially since it seems reasonable to have different colours for things that are "permament" rather than "temporary" but it has been bugging me. Any ideas? I tried google-ing it but came up with no satisfactory answer, although learned a bit about eletrical safety. Many thanks in advance. |
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#2
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"Simon Marchese" wrote in message ... Dumb question I know, especially since it seems reasonable to have different colours for things that are "permament" rather than "temporary" but it has been bugging me. Any ideas? I tried google-ing it but came up with no satisfactory answer, although learned a bit about eletrical safety. Many thanks in advance. As far as I understand it, the colours in flex were harmonised a while back with the European standard (ie brown phase, blue neutral and G&Y earth) and the colours for fixed wiring were not. This is shortly to change and the colours for fixed and flexible domestic wiring will be the same. Maybe it has already. Any electicians on the group would probably know better. Will --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.744 / Virus Database: 496 - Release Date: 24/08/04 |
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#3
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In article ,
"gribblechips" writes: As far as I understand it, the colours in flex were harmonised a while back with the European standard (ie brown phase, blue neutral and G&Y earth) and the colours for fixed wiring were not. This is shortly to change and the colours for fixed and flexible domestic wiring will be the same. Maybe it has already. Any electicians on the group would probably know better. In theory you can get the new colours now, and you are allowed to use them. In practice, I've yet to see anyone supplying them -- neither the likes of B&Q nor either of the wholesalers I use have the new colours (well, I haven't actually asked, but if you just ask for a drum of cable without specifying, you get the old colours). -- Andrew Gabriel |
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#4
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In article ,
Simon Marchese wrote: Dumb question I know, especially since it seems reasonable to have different colours for things that are "permament" rather than "temporary" but it has been bugging me. Any ideas? I tried google-ing it but came up with no satisfactory answer, although learned a bit about eletrical safety. Many thanks in advance. They used to be the same, until 'we' were forced to change flex colours for something more sensible by the need to standardise across Europe. But we don't import/export ready made houses, so being the usual small minded 'british' decided not to change permanent wiring at the same time. As a minor concession, the green of earth sleeving *was* changed to green/yellow, though. -- *What happens if you get scared half to death twice? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#5
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"Simon Marchese" wrote in message ... Dumb question I know, especially since it seems reasonable to have different colours for things that are "permament" rather than "temporary" but it has been bugging me. Any ideas? I tried google-ing it but came up with no satisfactory answer, although learned a bit about eletrical safety. Many thanks in advance. Once upon a time, they weren't different - "flex" wires were Red=Live, Black=Neutral and Green=Earth - then along came harmonisation. Germans had brown for earth! We've ended up with a compromise, Brown, Blue and Green/Yellow. As you're unlikely to take your house to Germany, compared to say, your kettle; the 'fixed' cabling hasn't changed -just got specified in metric units. The changeover was in the seventies? -- Brian |
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#6
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Tony Bryer wrote:
In article , Gribblechips wrote: This is shortly to change and the colours for fixed and flexible domestic wiring will be the same. Maybe it has already. Any electicians on the group would probably know better. The latest Screwfix catalogue that came this week has cables in the new colours Hmm, so simply by looking at the colours it won't be obvious that it's not before part P... |
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#7
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In article , Gribblechips
wrote: This is shortly to change and the colours for fixed and flexible domestic wiring will be the same. Maybe it has already. Any electicians on the group would probably know better. The latest Screwfix catalogue that came this week has cables in the new colours -- Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk Free SEDBUK boiler database browser http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm |
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#8
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On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In theory you can get the new colours now, and you are allowed to use them. In practice, I've yet to see anyone supplying them -- neither the likes of B&Q nor either of the wholesalers I use have the new colours (well, I haven't actually asked, but if you just ask for a drum of cable without specifying, you get the old colours). At my PoW we have been supplied with cable in the new colours. Didn't ask for it specially - it just arrived with the new colours. Recipe for disaster if you ask me - we now have old circuits coloured blue - phase, black - neutral; and new circuits coloured brown - phase, blue - neutral, all in the same distribution board. -- Alistair Riddell - BOFH Microsoft - because god hates us |
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#9
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Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In theory you can get the new colours now, and you are allowed to use them. In practice, I've yet to see anyone supplying them -- RS have been selling what they call 'harmonised colours' since the start of the current catalogue. Look up (for example) SKU 468-1912 on the web site. but if you just ask for a drum of cable without specifying, you get the old colours). My experience too. Everybody wants to clear their old stock first. -- Andy |
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#10
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Brian Sharrock wrote:
Germans had brown for earth! No, the Germans used to use RED for earth. Add to that the fact that red-green colour-blindness is quite common and the need to harmonise on something other than the old British system isn't hard to see. Apparently it took about 12 years discussion in CENELEC to reach agreement on the brown-blue-green/yellow system -- and another 34 years for the UK to come in line on fixed wiring colours! (But the IEE did succeed in introducing grey as the third phase colour fx: cheering.) -- Andy |
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#11
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#12
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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 19:58:05 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote: Brian Sharrock wrote: Germans had brown for earth! No, the Germans used to use RED for earth. Add to that the fact that red-green colour-blindness is quite common and the need to harmonise on something other than the old British system isn't hard to see. Apparently it took about 12 years discussion in CENELEC to reach agreement on the brown-blue-green/yellow system -- and another 34 years for the UK to come in line on fixed wiring colours! (But the IEE did succeed in introducing grey as the third phase colour fx: cheering.) Is that good? ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#13
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On 9 Sep 2004 17:12:37 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In practice, I've yet to see anyone supplying them -- neither the likes of B&Q nor either of the wholesalers I use have the new colours ... Not looked in that detail in the sheds as I buy my cable by the drum from CEF. Last one I bought, 2.5 T&E a couple of weeks, ago was new colours. I asked if they had any old and they said no all they supply is new now. -- Cheers Dave. pam is missing e-mail |
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#14
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Andy Hall wrote:
Is that good? What, the third phase colour? Definitely! Imagine living in a country where you can't tell the phase rotation of the mains from the colours of the wires ;-) Supplementary question: does anyone know whether the supply industry has any intention of changing to brown-black-grey phase colours? I bet not. Reckon they'll stick with their red, yellow and blue discs for a long time yet... -- Andy |
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#15
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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 21:45:51 +0100, Andy Wade
wrote: Andy Hall wrote: Is that good? What, the third phase colour? Definitely! Imagine living in a country where you can't tell the phase rotation of the mains from the colours of the wires ;-) Oh I see. I thought that the individual phase conductors are supposed to be numbered in this case. Supplementary question: does anyone know whether the supply industry has any intention of changing to brown-black-grey phase colours? I bet not. Reckon they'll stick with their red, yellow and blue discs for a long time yet... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#16
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In theory you can get the new colours now, and you are allowed to use them. In practice, I've yet to see anyone supplying them -- neither the likes of B&Q nor either of the wholesalers I use have the new colours I have to ask for the old colours if I want them. My wholesalers (the 2 I have accounts with) supply new colours as standard (apart from the 3 core and earth). I Adam |
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#17
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Is that good?
What, the third phase colour? Definitely! Imagine living in a country where you can't tell the phase rotation of the mains from the colours of the wires ;-) Supplementary question: does anyone know whether the supply industry has any intention of changing to brown-black-grey phase colours? I bet not. Reckon they'll stick with their red, yellow and blue discs for a long time yet... surely it is easier to differentiate between red/yellow/blue in a dark dirty hole than brown/black/grey? Plus the colours look a lot nicer  ) |
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#18
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In article , Andy Wade
writes Brian Sharrock wrote: Germans had brown for earth! No, the Germans used to use RED for earth. Add to that the fact that red-green colour-blindness is quite common and the need to harmonise on something other than the old British system isn't hard to see. No disrespect to colour-blind people, but are they really the ideal candidates to be wiremen? I know of a guy who until recently was a TV service engineer and is red- green colour-blind. When adjusting sets for customers he asked them when the colour looked right for them. And as for replacing resistors.... :-) -- Frank Erskine |
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#19
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a wrote:
surely it is easier to differentiate between red/yellow/blue in a dark dirty hole than brown/black/grey? I thought that until I tried it. There's not much to choose actually. Remember that if the light level's really low your colour vision goes anyway and it's the luminance that matters. Plus the colours look a lot nicer )True - but it's too late to be having this discussion. -- Andy |
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#20
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote
| As a minor concession, the green of earth sleeving *was* changed to | green/yellow, though. Which was a *good* thing IMHO, as green on its own was often a bit sludgy and not easily distinguished, and the most prominent form of colour-blindness is red/green. Owain |
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#21
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"Alistair Riddell" wrote
| In theory you can get the new colours now, and you are allowed to | use them. In practice, I've yet to see anyone supplying them -- | neither the likes of B&Q nor either of the wholesalers I use have | the new colours (well, I haven't actually asked, but if you just | ask for a drum of cable without specifying, you get the old colours). | At my PoW we have been supplied with cable in the new colours. Didn't ask | for it specially - it just arrived with the new colours. Shop near me having wiring done is being done in the new colours. Owain |
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#22
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In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote: No disrespect to colour-blind people, but are they really the ideal candidates to be wiremen? A large percentage of the male population is to some extent red green colour blind - most noticeable in poor light. It's not an old wives's tale that women are better at matching colours. -- *One of us is thinking about sex... OK, it's me. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#23
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"Frank Erskine" wrote in message ... In article , Andy Wade writes Brian Sharrock wrote: Germans had brown for earth! No, the Germans used to use RED for earth. Add to that the fact that red-green colour-blindness is quite common and the need to harmonise on something other than the old British system isn't hard to see. No disrespect to colour-blind people, but are they really the ideal candidates to be wiremen? I know of a guy who until recently was a TV service engineer and is red- green colour-blind. When adjusting sets for customers he asked them when the colour looked right for them. And as for replacing resistors.... :-) 'I know a guy' ... for reasons that don't concern the story;- The Navy had arranged at great expense to demonstrate a piece of kit to two of us, the other guy -call him Dick- was _exceptionally_ quiet during the demo. As the jolly matelots switched on this and selected that to indicate thus, Dick remained shtum ... while driving back, I commented;- "You were quiet today, Dick?" He responded; "I'm red colour-blind and couldn't see a thing!" Every monitor, LED, legend and read-out was red - to Dick's eyes, the Jacks had been playing with a totally dead piece of kit! -- Brian |
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#24
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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 23:55:42 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: In article , Frank Erskine wrote: No disrespect to colour-blind people, but are they really the ideal candidates to be wiremen? A large percentage of the male population is to some extent red green colour blind - most noticeable in poor light. It's not an old wives's tale that women are better at matching colours. Especially in clothing stores..... ..andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl |
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#25
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In article ,
Andy Hall wrote: A large percentage of the male population is to some extent red green colour blind - most noticeable in poor light. It's not an old wives's tale that women are better at matching colours. Especially in clothing stores..... Heh heh. The obvious one is where you need some paint made up to match some say furnishings. Don't ask a male assistant for help... -- *If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#26
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Andy Hall wrote: A large percentage of the male population is to some extent red green colour blind - most noticeable in poor light. It's not an old wives's tale that women are better at matching colours. Especially in clothing stores..... Heh heh. The obvious one is where you need some paint made up to match some say furnishings. Don't ask a male assistant for help... Funny you should say that. I've just had a nightmare job to colour match a deep red paint. The first three attempts from different suppliers were miles out; the ones that used a photspectrometer the worst! Finally I went to another supplier which was 'manned' by just two women. The first scanned the colour and mixed up a sample, which she compared, and decided it wasn't a good match. Her colleague came over, glanced at my sample, and pronounced, 'Oh, that's Royal Maroon' and just produced a tin off the shelf, which was an exact match! -- Paul |
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#27
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'I know a guy' ... for reasons that don't concern the story;- The Navy had arranged at great expense to demonstrate a piece of kit to two of us, the other guy -call him Dick- was _exceptionally_ quiet during the demo. As the jolly matelots switched on this and selected that to indicate thus, Dick remained shtum ... while driving back, I commented;- "You were quiet today, Dick?" He responded; "I'm red colour-blind and couldn't see a thing!" Every monitor, LED, legend and read-out was red - to Dick's eyes, the Jacks had been playing with a totally dead piece of kit! The Navy gives you a free colour blindness test if you wasnt to be a electrician on board ship. You don't get trained if you are !!! Dave -- Some people use windows, others have a life. |
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#28
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Recipe for disaster if you ask me - we now have old circuits coloured blue - phase, black - neutral; and new circuits coloured brown - phase, blue - neutral, all in the same distribution board. Go and have a look at your local hospital, if its anything like ours they will have big notices saying no one is to use any new colour wiring. ( iassume until given permission, but it does'nt say that) Dave -- Some people use windows, others have a life. |
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#29
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Andy Hall wrote: A large percentage of the male population is to some extent red green colour blind - most noticeable in poor light. It's not an old wives's tale that women are better at matching colours. Especially in clothing stores..... Heh heh. The obvious one is where you need some paint made up to match some say furnishings. Don't ask a male assistant for help... F*ck knows how most car paint is *colour* matched then.... |
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#30
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In article ,
Dave Stanton wrote: The Navy gives you a free colour blindness test if you wasnt to be a electrician on board ship. You don't get trained if you are !!! At one time colour vision was pretty important for all pro sailors - being able to distinguish between distant red and green lights. They tested peripheral vision for this at one time if you wanted to join the merchant navy. A school pal tried and failed. -- *Marriage changes passion - suddenly you're in bed with a relative* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#31
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In article ,
:::Jerry:::: wrote: Heh heh. The obvious one is where you need some paint made up to match some say furnishings. Don't ask a male assistant for help... F*ck knows how most car paint is *colour* matched then.... In the case of mine, badly. BMW main agent subbing out the work. -- *How can I miss you if you won't go away? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#32
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , :::Jerry:::: wrote: Heh heh. The obvious one is where you need some paint made up to match some say furnishings. Don't ask a male assistant for help... F*ck knows how most car paint is *colour* matched then.... In the case of mine, badly. BMW main agent subbing out the work. Well, you have my email address Dave, don't you !... :~) |
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#33
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It is an old wives tale that women are better at matching colours. When colour tv set up was done by eye, it was found that women were not actually as accurate as men due to their colour perception having a greater variation. Hence the move to computerised colour matching. Regards Capitol |
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#34
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Frank Erskine wrote:
In article , Andy Wade writes Brian Sharrock wrote: Germans had brown for earth! No, the Germans used to use RED for earth. Add to that the fact that red-green colour-blindness is quite common and the need to harmonise on something other than the old British system isn't hard to see. No disrespect to colour-blind people, but are they really the ideal candidates to be wiremen? I know of a guy who until recently was a TV service engineer and is red- green colour-blind. When adjusting sets for customers he asked them when the colour looked right for them. And as for replacing resistors.... :-) Takes me back to my schooldays - we had 3 physics teachers : 1 was red-green colour blind 1 was blue-yellow colour blind and the third was an idiot Can you picture how resistor discussion went ?!?!?!?!?!????? -- +---+ | n | www.n-gate.net +---+ |
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#35
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In article ,
Capitol wrote: It is an old wives tale that women are better at matching colours. It's not an old wives tale that more men are 'colour blind' than women - it's a provable fact. When colour tv set up was done by eye, it was found that women were not actually as accurate as men due to their colour perception having a greater variation. In those days, colour TVs left the factory only approximately right - the final adjustment was done in the home. Hence the move to computerised colour matching. And of course it's cheaper. -- *Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#36
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The change must be completed by 2006 after which time the old colour
cable cannot be sold in UK; so in run up to then will be some good cable deals I guess!! 3 core & earth old & new even more complicated! At junctions of old & new, a warning label must be affixed. This is another bad case of harmonisation with Europe; our colours were far more logical. See http://www.niceic.org.uk/downloads/NL138supp.pdf Alistair Riddell wrote in message . org.uk... On Thu, 9 Sep 2004, Andrew Gabriel wrote: In theory you can get the new colours now, and you are allowed to use them. In practice, I've yet to see anyone supplying them -- neither the likes of B&Q nor either of the wholesalers I use have the new colours (well, I haven't actually asked, but if you just ask for a drum of cable without specifying, you get the old colours). At my PoW we have been supplied with cable in the new colours. Didn't ask for it specially - it just arrived with the new colours. Recipe for disaster if you ask me - we now have old circuits coloured blue - phase, black - neutral; and new circuits coloured brown - phase, blue - neutral, all in the same distribution board. |
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#37
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In article ,
Gel wrote: The change must be completed by 2006 after which time the old colour cable cannot be sold in UK; so in run up to then will be some good cable deals I guess!! It would be a very poor business which holds stocks until then. 3 core & earth old & new even more complicated! At junctions of old & new, a warning label must be affixed. This is another bad case of harmonisation with Europe; our colours were far more logical. To you, perhaps, because it's what you're used to. -- *Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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#38
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":::Jerry::::" wrote
| "Dave Plowman (News)" | It's not an old wives's tale that women are better at matching | colours. | Especially in clothing stores..... If they're better at it, why does it take them so long to decide if something 'goes' with something else ;-) | Heh heh. | The obvious one is where you need some paint made up to match | some say furnishings. Don't ask a male assistant for help... | F*ck knows how most car paint is *colour* matched then.... Most car paint is bought by men. Customer can't tell the difference, customer happy. Owain |
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#39
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"Owain" wrote in message . .. ":::Jerry::::" wrote | "Dave Plowman (News)" | It's not an old wives's tale that women are better at matching | colours. | Especially in clothing stores..... If they're better at it, why does it take them so long to decide if something 'goes' with something else ;-) | Heh heh. | The obvious one is where you need some paint made up to match | some say furnishings. Don't ask a male assistant for help... | F*ck knows how most car paint is *colour* matched then.... Most car paint is bought by men. Customer can't tell the difference, customer happy. Most car paint is mixed by men, in car bodyshops anyway...... Doh ! |
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#40
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"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: In those days, colour TVs left the factory only approximately right - the final adjustment was done in the home. Only if it was necessary to reconverge. Delivered consumer product colour rendering was factory set. Studio monitors were locally set to allow for special lighting conditions. Hence the move to computerised colour matching. And of course it's cheaper. Initially it was more expensive, but the Japanese led the way in producing non adjustment necessary sets and to compete on price, the US and Europe had to develop the ICs which allowed the reduction of the labour content. Today, as we know, it is uneconomic to produce almost any high volume hardware consumer item in the EU other than in the low labour cost member states. (Where is all this new coloured wire coming from?) Hence the creeping decline in UK manufacturing employment (down by 300K I believe) and the decrease in the income tax take as many of these jobs were relatively higher paid than working in fast food. I guess one of the next stages will be further outsourcing of TV program production etc to Eastern Europe or the far East! Regards Capitol |
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