My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

The Gas Safety Certificate was only issued a month or two ago so where
do we stand on getting this sorted out? The Gas Safe engineer says
it's safe but the gas supplier says it's not and has turned the gas off.


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

A quick search suggests that the height of an extract hood for a gas
hob has a sort of default minimum of 750mm but tha this isn't actually
mandatory, if the manufacturer says something else (less or more) then
that's the 'right' clearance.

Similarly are there any exact rules about ventilation? It's a fairly
typical medium sized kitchen in a modern terraced house. It has what
was an outside window and door but these now open into what might be
called a conservatory but is really just a small covered (but by no
means well insulated) utility areas. It has a hatch (no doors) into
the main living area and an internal door into the hall.


We obviously want to get this resolved as quickly (and cheaply) as
possible while ensuring that things are safe. I expect the tenants
are a bit fed up too!


--
Chris Green
·

Since the tenants caused the issue, I think they should be less annoyed.
Did they ask permission to change and are there rules in the lease about
changing hard items like meters and suppliers? It might well mean having to
go back to the old supplier at their expense if the new one is intransigent
on this, but as you have a certificate, one might hope that a copy of that
to the supplier should resolve it.
Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Green" wrote in message
news
My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

The Gas Safety Certificate was only issued a month or two ago so where
do we stand on getting this sorted out? The Gas Safe engineer says
it's safe but the gas supplier says it's not and has turned the gas off.


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

A quick search suggests that the height of an extract hood for a gas
hob has a sort of default minimum of 750mm but tha this isn't actually
mandatory, if the manufacturer says something else (less or more) then
that's the 'right' clearance.

Similarly are there any exact rules about ventilation? It's a fairly
typical medium sized kitchen in a modern terraced house. It has what
was an outside window and door but these now open into what might be
called a conservatory but is really just a small covered (but by no
means well insulated) utility areas. It has a hatch (no doors) into
the main living area and an internal door into the hall.


We obviously want to get this resolved as quickly (and cheaply) as
possible while ensuring that things are safe. I expect the tenants
are a bit fed up too!


--
Chris Green
·

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:34:49 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?


Cheers, T i m

Chris Green wrote:
My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

The Gas Safety Certificate was only issued a month or two ago so where
do we stand on getting this sorted out? The Gas Safe engineer says
it's safe but the gas supplier says it's not and has turned the gas off.

Has the gas supplier provided a means by which the supply might be turned on
again? Have they disconnected the supply, or just pulled the lever at the
meter to shut off the supply? Did they install the smart meter, leave
the old one in place, or cap off the supply? If capped off, is that before
or after the meter?

The other wrinkle is the meter installer was presumably contracted by the
company who sell you the gas, not the gas distributor who own the pipes in
the street. The DNO are the ones who handle gas leaks, and I imagine the
gas sellers (suppliers) don't actually have any trained gas fitters on the
staff. (many of those firms are really paper 'energy traders' rather than
getting their hands dirty, subbing out the smart meter fitting)

Given that suppliers probably have no competency in gas fitting, if you have
been disconnected outside the property you might need the DNO to help out,
and inside you might just need a Gas Safe person to look at the installation
and reconnect. You can then go to the supplier and tell them the problem
has been rectified.

But the first port of call would be to ask the supplier what needs to be
done to make them happy.

Theo
(who knows very little about gas installations, I should warn you!)

On 21/11/2020 12:05, T i m wrote:

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?

Really? If you just want to stay with your existing supplier just do so
on your standard variable tariff and don't use every negative post about
energy as an excuse not to do so.

Millions of people have changed energy suppliers without any such
problems. In the vast majority of cases changing suppliers does not
require a meter change - no-one comes to your home.

In fact this problem is not about changing energy suppliers but changing
gas meters. If you have you gas meter changed with your current supplier
the same "safety" checks" will still be preformed to see if your
appliances are working afterwards and are safe.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

In article ,
T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:34:49 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?


Through Flipper, I have changed energy suppliers several times. And not
one has insisted on a smart meter. Which I don't have.

--
*Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 21/11/2020 11:34, Chris Green wrote:
My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

The Gas Safety Certificate was only issued a month or two ago so where
do we stand on getting this sorted out? The Gas Safe engineer says
it's safe but the gas supplier says it's not and has turned the gas off.


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

A quick search suggests that the height of an extract hood for a gas
hob has a sort of default minimum of 750mm but tha this isn't actually
mandatory, if the manufacturer says something else (less or more) then
that's the 'right' clearance.

Similarly are there any exact rules about ventilation? It's a fairly
typical medium sized kitchen in a modern terraced house. It has what
was an outside window and door but these now open into what might be
called a conservatory but is really just a small covered (but by no
means well insulated) utility areas. It has a hatch (no doors) into
the main living area and an internal door into the hall.


We obviously want to get this resolved as quickly (and cheaply) as
possible while ensuring that things are safe. I expect the tenants
are a bit fed up too!



https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/wh...ion-ombudsman/

Theo wrote:
Chris Green wrote:
My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

The Gas Safety Certificate was only issued a month or two ago so where
do we stand on getting this sorted out? The Gas Safe engineer says
it's safe but the gas supplier says it's not and has turned the gas off.

Has the gas supplier provided a means by which the supply might be turned on
again? Have they disconnected the supply, or just pulled the lever at the
meter to shut off the supply? Did they install the smart meter, leave
the old one in place, or cap off the supply? If capped off, is that before
or after the meter?

I have no idea, I'm sort of once removed from the actual issue. I
*think* they have probably just turned the tap off and hung a notice
on it but I'm not at all sure.

The other wrinkle is the meter installer was presumably contracted by the
company who sell you the gas, not the gas distributor who own the pipes in
the street. The DNO are the ones who handle gas leaks, and I imagine the
gas sellers (suppliers) don't actually have any trained gas fitters on the
staff. (many of those firms are really paper 'energy traders' rather than
getting their hands dirty, subbing out the smart meter fitting)

It's the company who installed the new meter who have said the
installation isn't safe, as you say they are paid/contracted by the
sellers.

--
Chris Green
·

Richard wrote:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/wh...ion-ombudsman/

But we're not in dispute! It's a dispute between Gas Engineer A and
Gas Engineer B, we're just left with the result.

--
Chris Green
·

On 21/11/2020 13:04, Chris Green wrote:
Richard wrote:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/wh...ion-ombudsman/

But we're not in dispute! It's a dispute between Gas Engineer A and
Gas Engineer B, we're just left with the result.



The practical course is to get your original engineer back. He can
review the issue, and turn the gas back on. Plus, reassure the tenant.

Whether the tenant should pay for this is another matter. Fat chance, IMHO.

On 21/11/2020 13:04, Chris Green wrote:
Richard wrote:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/wh...ion-ombudsman/

But we're not in dispute! It's a dispute between Gas Engineer A and
Gas Engineer B, we're just left with the result.



But the ombudsman may be able to help you.
Reading your post, it would seem that neither party is listening to what
you are telling them which means you are in dispute with both.

On Saturday, 21 November 2020 at 11:48:07 UTC, Chris Green wrote:
My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

The Gas Safety Certificate was only issued a month or two ago so where
do we stand on getting this sorted out? The Gas Safe engineer says
it's safe but the gas supplier says it's not and has turned the gas off.


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

A quick search suggests that the height of an extract hood for a gas
hob has a sort of default minimum of 750mm but tha this isn't actually
mandatory, if the manufacturer says something else (less or more) then
that's the 'right' clearance.

Similarly are there any exact rules about ventilation? It's a fairly
typical medium sized kitchen in a modern terraced house. It has what
was an outside window and door but these now open into what might be
called a conservatory but is really just a small covered (but by no
means well insulated) utility areas. It has a hatch (no doors) into
the main living area and an internal door into the hall.


We obviously want to get this resolved as quickly (and cheaply) as
possible while ensuring that things are safe. I expect the tenants
are a bit fed up too!


--
Chris Green
·
In the group of flats my mother lives in, all the flats had gas fires in the lounges and following a gas safety check sometime back, these were all removed owing to a lack of suitable ventilation. My mother still has a gas boiler but that has a balanced flue and also a gas hob. There was no recommendation that the hob should be removed due to lack of ventilation and since then she has had several gas checks and that has never come up.

You may be right about the minimum height for a cooker hood, I seem to recall that was the case when I installed a hood at the last house which involved removing a section off the hoods chimney cowling. I think most manufacturers recommend that in their installation instructions.

Richard

On 21/11/2020 11:34, Chris Green wrote:


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

Isn't this two separate unrelated problems?

A lack of ventilation for the gas hob installation (with or without a
extractor)

Th extractor fitted too low. Which can easily be verified by looking at
the manufacturers installation instructions.





--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 21/11/2020 13:04, Chris Green wrote:
Richard wrote:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/wh...ion-ombudsman/

But we're not in dispute! It's a dispute between Gas Engineer A and
Gas Engineer B, we're just left with the result.


Actually the tenant is left with the immediate result (no gas)
and they brought the situation on themselves from what I see.

alan_m wrote:
On 21/11/2020 11:34, Chris Green wrote:


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

Isn't this two separate unrelated problems?

A lack of ventilation for the gas hob installation (with or without a
extractor)

Th extractor fitted too low. Which can easily be verified by looking at
the manufacturers installation instructions.

Correct, so how to resolve both/either? I doubt if the manufacturers
installation instructions are still around for the extractor, it has
been there for quite a few years.

--
Chris Green
·

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:16:42 +0000
Chris Green wrote:

alan_m wrote:
On 21/11/2020 11:34, Chris Green wrote:


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

Isn't this two separate unrelated problems?

A lack of ventilation for the gas hob installation (with or without
a extractor)

Th extractor fitted too low. Which can easily be verified by
looking at the manufacturers installation instructions.

Correct, so how to resolve both/either? I doubt if the manufacturers
installation instructions are still around for the extractor, it has
been there for quite a few years.


Googling suggests 750mm to be the min height above a gas hob, and
here's a guide to ventilation requirements:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...quirements.pdf


HTH

Chris Green wrote:

alan_m wrote:

Th extractor fitted too low. Which can easily be verified by looking at
the manufacturers installation instructions.

Correct, so how to resolve both/either? I doubt if the manufacturers
installation instructions are still around for the extractor, it has
been there for quite a few years.

Where installation instructions are unavailable, assume 760mm top clearance

https://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords/120814-prevused_domestic_gas_cooking_appliances.pdf

On 21/11/2020 12:05, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:34:49 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?



No it doesn't. You are conflating 2 different issues. You are not
/required/ to have a smart meter installed when you switch supplier.
You can have a smart meter installed without switching supplier.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 21/11/2020 14:30, alan_m wrote:

On 21/11/2020 11:34, Chris Green wrote:


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

Isn't this two separate unrelated problems?

Not totally...

A lack of ventilation for the gas hob installation (with or without a
extractor)

The presence of an extract device may inroduce additional ventilation
requirements in some cases.

Th extractor fitted too low. Which can easily be verified by looking at
the manufacturers installation instructions.

BS 6172:2010 "Specification for installation, servicing and maintenance
of domestic gas cooking appliances (2nd and 3rd family gases)" covers
this in section 8.6:

"8.6 Where a cooker hood is to be used, both the gas cooker and the hood
manufacturer's installation instructions shall be consulted. Where
different distances are given from the top of the cooker to the bottom
of the cooker hood, the greater of the two specified distances shall be
used."


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" wrote in message
...
Since the tenants caused the issue, I think they should be less annoyed.
Did they ask permission to change and are there rules in the lease about
changing hard items like meters

even if there a

"must not be unreasonably withheld"

what possible reason could a LL have for not allowing it

and suppliers?

tenants have a statutory right to select their own supplier which overrides
terms in tenancies

most agents have stopped putting the clause in because they know it can't be
enforced.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 21/11/2020 13:04, Chris Green wrote:
Richard wrote:

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/wh...ion-ombudsman/

But we're not in dispute! It's a dispute between Gas Engineer A and
Gas Engineer B, we're just left with the result.


Actually the tenant is left with the immediate result (no gas)
and they brought the situation on themselves from what I see.

in the sense that they foolishly believed the power company when they sent
out the "you MUST have a smart meter installed" mail-shot, perhaps

Or even the "we will be calling on XX/YY to install your new smart meter,
please make sure to be in on that day"

tim

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:26:41 +0000, alan_m
wrote:

On 21/11/2020 12:05, T i m wrote:

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?

Really?

Yup?

If you just want to stay with your existing supplier just do so
on your standard variable tariff

I don't, particularly?

and don't use every negative post about
energy as an excuse not to do so.

I don't?

Millions of people have changed energy suppliers without any such
problems.

And many haven't. Are you getting to a point?

In the vast majority of cases changing suppliers does not
require a meter change - no-one comes to your home.

Ok?

In fact this problem is not about changing energy suppliers but changing
gas meters.

Brought about by the change of energy supplier.

"Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed."

Please try to stick to the truth, even if you can't understand why
some people don't think exactly like you.

If you have you gas meter changed with your current supplier
the same "safety" checks" will still be preformed to see if your
appliances are working afterwards and are safe.

Yes, and?

What's that got to do with a gas meter change specifically brought on
by a supplier change and that in turn causing other issues ... and me
referring to those issues as validation as part of the reason why I
(and many others) might not want to rock the boat for what might be
insignificant savings, when viewed against all other expenditures?

Cheers, T i m

On 21/11/2020 11:34, Chris Green wrote:

Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

The starting point would be BS 6172:2010 "Specification for
installation, servicing and maintenance of domestic gas cooking
appliances (2nd and 3rd family gases)"

In general it says: "8.2 Clearance around a cooking appliance and within
the kitchen furniture shall be in accordance with the appliance
manufacturer's instructions regarding the supply of air, the discharge
of combustion products, and protection against excessive temperatures.

COMMENTARY ON 8.2
In the absence of specific guidance in the manufacturer's instructions,
Figure 1 should be followed for general guidance on clearance zones."

Figure one shows 450mm vertical clearance to the base of adjacent wall
units, and 760mm directly over the hob.

A quick search suggests that the height of an extract hood for a gas
hob has a sort of default minimum of 750mm but tha this isn't actually
mandatory, if the manufacturer says something else (less or more) then
that's the 'right' clearance.

Indeed - the installation instructions can override that.

Similarly are there any exact rules about ventilation? It's a fairly
typical medium sized kitchen in a modern terraced house. It has what
was an outside window and door but these now open into what might be
called a conservatory but is really just a small covered (but by no
means well insulated) utility areas. It has a hatch (no doors) into
the main living area and an internal door into the hall.

There are some if the power output of the open flue device is over 7kW
and/or its installed in an "internal kitchen" (where Internal Kitchen is

"3.7 internal kitchen
kitchen in which there is no opening communicating directly with outside
air"

The above BS refers off to BS5440-2:20090 "Flueing and ventilation for
gas appliances of rated input not exceeding 70 kW net (1st, 2nd and 3rd
family gases)" at this point.

Section 6.3.1 of that:

"6.3.1 Open-flued appliance installed in a room or internal space
Where an open-flued appliance with a rated input exceeding 7 kW is
installed in a room or internal space or garage, that room or internal
space shall be provided with a permanent opening and an air vent with a
minimum free area of 5 cm2 for every kW of appliance maximum rated input
in excess of 7 kW. Ventilated underfloor space shall be considered
outside air, providing the air vents supplying air to the underfloor
space remain adequate (i.e. air vents have not been removed, blocked or
sealed). Underfloor air vents to gas space heaters shall not be
positioned directly under the appliance and shall be in accordance with
IBS 5871-11 Bs 5871-21, BS 5871-31 or BS 5871-4, as appropriate."


We obviously want to get this resolved as quickly (and cheaply) as
possible while ensuring that things are safe. I expect the tenants
are a bit fed up too!

Getting the installation manuals for the cooker and the extractor seems
like a good first step.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 12:32:57 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

snip

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?


Through Flipper, I have changed energy suppliers several times. And not
one has insisted on a smart meter. Which I don't have.

How much of that could be down to circumstance or luck though?

Like, say smart meters aren't available in your area, then 'of course'
you wouldn't be requested to have one. The chances are they are here
and I have been requested to have one many times.

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:54:19 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 21/11/2020 12:05, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:34:49 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?



No it doesn't. You are conflating 2 different issues. You are not
/required/ to have a smart meter installed when you switch supplier.

Where did I even mention Smart Meters Robin?

You can have a smart meter installed without switching supplier.

But to get some tariffs I believe you must have a smart meter (as you
mentioned smart meters).

My point was nothing to do with smart meters, it was only to do with
'rocking the boat' and where there is no guarantee you will get there
significantly cheaper but you could drown.

I'm guessing if such supplier changes all went smoothly the OP
wouldn't have posted his message and Watchdog wouldn't have to
intervene when supplier switches wrong and the innocent customer ends
up trying to get sense from a brick wall?

Cheers, T i m

Chris Green wrote:
It's the company who installed the new meter who have said the
installation isn't safe, as you say they are paid/contracted by the
sellers.

So I imagine you need to contact the supplier, given the meter installer was
likely contracted by them (you would presumably have a contractual
relationship with them in the event of the tenants moving out, so I'd hope
they would speak to you).

It would help if you can ask the tenants to send you some photos of the
current state, otherwise nobody is going to be any the wiser as to what to
do.

Your agent is just that, your agent, and it sounds like you need to take
things into your own hands, otherwise too many levels of indirection will
make it hard to make timely progress.

Theo

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 21/11/2020 14:30, alan_m wrote:

On 21/11/2020 11:34, Chris Green wrote:


Aside from the above conflict and how to sort it out what are the
rules (if any specific ones apply) about gas hob installations?

Isn't this two separate unrelated problems?

Not totally...

A lack of ventilation for the gas hob installation (with or without a
extractor)

The presence of an extract device may inroduce additional ventilation
requirements in some cases.

Th extractor fitted too low. Which can easily be verified by looking at
the manufacturers installation instructions.

BS 6172:2010 "Specification for installation, servicing and maintenance
of domestic gas cooking appliances (2nd and 3rd family gases)" covers
this in section 8.6:

"8.6 Where a cooker hood is to be used, both the gas cooker and the hood
manufacturer's installation instructions shall be consulted. Where
different distances are given from the top of the cooker to the bottom
of the cooker hood, the greater of the two specified distances shall be
used."

In our theatre, where we had a gas cooker, I had to arrange a solenoid in
the gas supply so that the cooker couldn't be turned on unless the fan was
running.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 21/11/2020 15:29, Andy Burns wrote:
Chris Green wrote:

alan_m wrote:

Th extractor fitted too low. Which can easily be verified by looking at
the manufacturers installation instructions.

Correct, so how to resolve both/either?Â* I doubt if the manufacturers
installation instructions are still around for the extractor, it has
been there for quite a few years.

Where installation instructions are unavailable, assume 760mm top clearance

https://www.hse.gov.uk/gas/landlords/120814-prevused_domestic_gas_cooking_appliances.pdf


Are there any regulations that say you must have an extractor above
a hob ?.
The 'new' kitchen that the previous owners installed (1990) has no
extractor hood above the electric cooker but there is a 300mm deep by
600 wide cupboard with a top hinged door then the normal 600mm deep by
NNNmm wide units on either side, all sharing the same top level.

T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:54:19 +0000, Robin wrote:

No it doesn't. You are conflating 2 different issues. You are not
/required/ to have a smart meter installed when you switch supplier.

Where did I even mention Smart Meters Robin?

This thread is all about installation of a smart meter.

You can have a smart meter installed without switching supplier.

But to get some tariffs I believe you must have a smart meter (as you
mentioned smart meters).

If you sign up to a smart meter tariff, yes you need a smart meter - the
clue is in the name.

The OP's tenants decided to do that - maybe a smart meter is right for them.
By law, the OP as landlord doesn't get to veto it.

My point was nothing to do with smart meters, it was only to do with
'rocking the boat' and where there is no guarantee you will get there
significantly cheaper but you could drown.

The problem here is really that the response has got garbled through several
layers of tenants, energy supplier, installer, gas engineer, letting agency,
and so on. I'm sure if the OP was present at the time of the works they
could have sorted things out (or at least got to the bottom of the mystery).

It's nothing to do with switching energy supplier. It could have happened
when the letting agent sent round a different Gas Safe person to do the
safety check from the one they normally use.

I'm guessing if such supplier changes all went smoothly the OP
wouldn't have posted his message and Watchdog wouldn't have to
intervene when supplier switches wrong and the innocent customer ends
up trying to get sense from a brick wall?

Bad customer service can happen from any organisation at any time. It isn't
a thing specific to switching.

Theo

On 21/11/2020 17:23, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:54:19 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 21/11/2020 12:05, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:34:49 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?



No it doesn't. You are conflating 2 different issues. You are not
/required/ to have a smart meter installed when you switch supplier.

Where did I even mention Smart Meters Robin?

You can have a smart meter installed without switching supplier.

But to get some tariffs I believe you must have a smart meter (as you
mentioned smart meters).

My point was nothing to do with smart meters, it was only to do with
'rocking the boat' and where there is no guarantee you will get there
significantly cheaper but you could drown.

I'm guessing if such supplier changes all went smoothly the OP
wouldn't have posted his message and Watchdog wouldn't have to
intervene when supplier switches wrong and the innocent customer ends
up trying to get sense from a brick wall?


Theo's answer covers all the main points I'd have made.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 22/11/2020 00:06, Theo wrote:

If you sign up to a smart meter tariff, yes you need a smart meter - the
clue is in the name.

The OP's tenants decided to do that - maybe a smart meter is right for them.
By law, the OP as landlord doesn't get to veto it.

I didn't know that, so looked into it. For the sake of clarity, it seems
it's not quite correct - it's only true if the tenants pay the bills
directly; if the landlord pays the bills, it's up to him/her as to
whether or not a smart meter is installed. It's not clear from the OP
who is paying the bills, but I assume it's the tenants.

--

Jeff

The point is though, that if they do it and the owner is unaware, then the
issue caused by it will also not be known. Changing supplier is one thing,
but installation of a new meter is something else and indeed, why would they
need to inspect the whole installation if there is an existing supply made
by another company. Seems illogical to me. Certainly advise, but I do not
think that the small discrepancy in interpretation of a rule is actually a
safety issue any more than it was before, and its been like it for some
time, quite obviously. What are the grounds for it being unsafe, I wonder?

Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"tim..." wrote in message
...


"Brian Gaff (Sofa)" wrote in message
...
Since the tenants caused the issue, I think they should be less annoyed.
Did they ask permission to change and are there rules in the lease about
changing hard items like meters

even if there a

"must not be unreasonably withheld"

what possible reason could a LL have for not allowing it

and suppliers?

tenants have a statutory right to select their own supplier which
overrides terms in tenancies

most agents have stopped putting the clause in because they know it can't
be enforced.

When we had gas, we just opened the window, none of this extra ventilation
and cooker hood stuff in them days, Besides the houses back then had
draughts everywhere, well enough to make sure there was no build up of
carbon monoxide.


Brian

--

This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:34:49 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?


Cheers, T i m

On 22 Nov 2020 00:06:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo wrote:

Bad customer service can happen from any organisation at any time.

The argument isn't about "customer service", that appears to have
been fine, ie a smart meter was requested/required, arrangements
made, appointments kept, installation completed etc. The argument is
about "gas safety", and to be honest the cynic in me is saying that
the smart gas meter installler has "failed" the cooker hood and
disconnected the supply to drum up work.

The figures banded about indicate that the height difference being
argued about is 1cm. Is that from the very lowest part of the cooker
hood say the bottom of projecting switch, to the very highest part of
the hob, top of control knob? Or from the general level of the filter
(if horizontal) to the pan supports or burner heads or the top of a
glass hinge down cover?

Don't know what the regs or installation instructions say but I'd
argue that the clearance should be from the center top of the pan
support for each burner vertically to the "point of contact" with the
cooker hood.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 21/11/2020 12:26, alan_m wrote:
On 21/11/2020 12:05, T i m wrote:

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?

Really? If you just want to stay with your existing supplier just do so
on your standard variable tariff and don't use every negative post about
energy as an excuse not to do so.

Millions of people have changed energy suppliers without any such
problems. In the vast majority of cases changing suppliers does not
require a meter change - no-one comes to your home.

In fact this problem is not about changing energy suppliers but changing
gas meters. If you have you gas meter changed with your current supplier
the same "safety" checks" will still be preformed to see if your
appliances are working afterwards and are safe.

If T i m demands cast-iron guarantees about the future of complex things
like Brexit and the very simple switching of energy suppliers, one
wonders if his 10,000-page pre-nup mentioned a vegan diet...


--
Spike

On 21/11/2020 12:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 11:34:49 +0000, Chris Green wrote:

My M-I-L and family own a property which has recently been let. The
letting is being handled by an agency and it's through them that the
Gas Safety and Electrical Safety checks have been done.

Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result, a new smart meter has been installed. The installers of
the smart meter have declared the gas installation to be unsafe,
specifically they say the extract hood above the cooker doesn't have
enough clearance and there isn't enough ventilation.

OT of course but this does highlight my point about switching energy
suppliers (just to save money) and potentially unseen 'issues' that
cause unintended consequences (even if they are a positive safety
thing)?

Through Flipper, I have changed energy suppliers several times. And not
one has insisted on a smart meter. Which I don't have.

WHS, except that I did the switching myself.

The only trouble I had was with a switch away from British Gas to SSE,
in which BG appeared very reluctant to go through the process. I rang
SSE and spoke to a nice Scottish lady. I don't know what she said to BG,
but 10 minutes later I got a grovelling call from the latter and the
switch went though without hitch from that point. My latest switch was
all online and couldn't have been smoother. However, I never start the
process from a position of imagining there were hobgoblins everywhere,
which probably helps.


--
Spike

Jeff Layman wrote:
On 22/11/2020 00:06, Theo wrote:

If you sign up to a smart meter tariff, yes you need a smart meter - the
clue is in the name.

The OP's tenants decided to do that - maybe a smart meter is right for them.
By law, the OP as landlord doesn't get to veto it.

I didn't know that, so looked into it. For the sake of clarity, it seems
it's not quite correct - it's only true if the tenants pay the bills
directly; if the landlord pays the bills, it's up to him/her as to
whether or not a smart meter is installed. It's not clear from the OP
who is paying the bills, but I assume it's the tenants.

OP here, yes, it's the tenants, which I think is pretty much the usual
way things are done. I think the rules that apply if the landlord
pays and passes the cost on are very stringent so most landlords don't
do it.

As some have suggested here we are going to get the original Gas Safe
engineer back to see if he still thinks it's safe, or *maybe* it does
need some more ventilation. That would be very easy to provide so is
a simple cheap solution to keep everyone happy.

Apparently the height of the extract above the hob, although mentioned
somewhere, isn't in the actual "this is unsafe" notice so maybe we
don't have to do anything about that - here's hoping.

--
Chris Green
·

"Brian Gaff \(Sofa\)" wrote:
When we had gas, we just opened the window, none of this extra ventilation
and cooker hood stuff in them days, Besides the houses back then had
draughts everywhere, well enough to make sure there was no build up of
carbon monoxide.

That's still OK, a kitchen with doors or windows to the outside and a
volume greater than 10m3 doesn't need anything more. (At least that's
my understanding from reading the relevant 'Gas Safe' Technical
Bulletin).

--
Chris Green
·

On 22 Nov 2020 00:06:23 +0000 (GMT), Theo
wrote:

T i m wrote:
On Sat, 21 Nov 2020 15:54:19 +0000, Robin wrote:

No it doesn't. You are conflating 2 different issues. You are not
/required/ to have a smart meter installed when you switch supplier.

Where did I even mention Smart Meters Robin?

This thread is all about installation of a smart meter.

I saw it as a thread about the unforeseen consequences of switching
energy suppliers and subsequent gas cut off?

Would the op have posted if nothing had 'gone wrong'?

Let me trim the key paragraph for you so it reads as I understand the
*actual* issue:

"Recently the tenants decided to change Gas/Electricity supplier and,
as a result snip the installers of the smart meter have declared the
gas installation to be unsafe, specifically they say the extract hood
above the cooker doesn't have enough clearance and there isn't enough
ventilation."

Clearer?

The issue isn't the smart meter but the unforeseen consequences
brought about by the switch.

You can have a smart meter installed without switching supplier.

But to get some tariffs I believe you must have a smart meter (as you
mentioned smart meters).

If you sign up to a smart meter tariff, yes you need a smart meter - the
clue is in the name.

But what if some auto-switching software selects a smart meter
supplier for you? After all, why would you start wasting time going
though all the checkboxes manually if the object was the cheapest
prices? If getting the best deal was paramount, having to have a smart
meter fitted would just be consequential (and how the OP got into this
mess, thanks to his tenants).

It's like the tenants have bought an electric car, had a charging
point fitted and now it keeps blowing the Company fuse and the OP is
roped in to getting the supply upgraded.

The OP's tenants decided to do that - maybe a smart meter is right for them.
By law, the OP as landlord doesn't get to veto it.

Quite, and so their (legitimate) actions have had unforeseen
consequences for the landlord. That doesn't distract from the spirit
of the thread.

My point was nothing to do with smart meters, it was only to do with
'rocking the boat' and where there is no guarantee you will get there
significantly cheaper but you could drown.

The problem here is really that the response has got garbled through several
layers of tenants, energy supplier, installer, gas engineer, letting agency,
and so on.

But the spirit of the thread hasn't to me. ;-)

I'm sure if the OP was present at the time of the works they
could have sorted things out (or at least got to the bottom of the mystery).

Possibly.

It's nothing to do with switching energy supplier.

See above.

It could have happened
when the letting agent sent round a different Gas Safe person to do the
safety check from the one they normally use.

Yes, It could, but it wasn't that in this case was it. If that also
happens (to the OP or anyone) then that would be cause for a different
post on a similar level.

I'm guessing if such supplier changes all went smoothly the OP
wouldn't have posted his message and Watchdog wouldn't have to
intervene when supplier switches wrong and the innocent customer ends
up trying to get sense from a brick wall?

Bad customer service can happen from any organisation at any time.

True.

It isn't
a thing specific to switching.

No, but if you allow a system to switch you purely on price (which
seems to be the ultimate goal amongst many), then you have to do it on
that alone ... and accept the consequences (that could include *known*
bad customer service).

Anything else implies some level of involvement by the customer and
therefore decisions, ideally based on known's (usage, customer
service, requirement for a smart meter and the risk of having your gas
cut off etc) and so back to the compromise between what you have now
(and are staying with because there are no known issues, you might be
happy to *pay* for that situation, 'The devil you know') and the
complete unknown (by you) of switching.

Let me try to explain the spirit of the potential of what I'm talking
about.

Of our total yearly running costs for us, the energy costs could be
5%.

If I manage to reduce the energy bills by 10%, and there was no aggro,
then that's a saving of 10% of 5% and in the real work that could be a
lot of risk (having the gas cut off) for such a tiny reward.

Now, I'm sure it all make sense to those who manage their lives on a
spreadsheet, but I don't ... and I'm not sure how *keen* I am to want
to take such a risk for such a tiny (and would need to be repeated
annually) return.

However, I'm *still* not saying I won't look into it, just that there
are far more *important*, interesting and risk free things I can be
doing instead. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 22 Nov 2020 07:26:04 +0000, Robin wrote:

snip

Theo's answer covers all the main points I'd have made.

And so should my reply to him to you. ;-)

There was a tread on a group somewhere where someone was complaining
about people disrespecting animals (wild, and domestic) by setting off
fireworks. The thread moved more on the point of the subject
(respecting animals) and someone quested what it had to do with
fireworks?

The thing is, it wasn't *about* fireworks, it was about *disrespecting
animals*, had the fireworks not been happening the animals (that had
been there all along) wouldn't have been suffering and so no post
would have been made (or certainly not one specifically about
animals).

It seems some (intentionally or otherwise) can't sometimes see the
wood from the trees (and I'm included in that of course) but some of
us seem to be able to cope more often that others. ;-)

Maybe this *is* an observation of those of us who tend to use more
'fuzzy logic', the right brainers, they aren't so interested in the
detail but the bigger picture and so whilst might not be the best
informed when it comes down to the actual details, at lest have a fair
grasp of the spirit of the concept?

That's not saying one is better than the other, that's admitting we
are different and have different strengths and weaknesses. We don't
all want to be accountants or social workers [1]. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] The whole use of the left / right brain lateralisation thing came
from a very good mate (and once my work mentor) who was interested to
find out, how after living with his wife for 30 odd years, he didn't
really like her (or her him it seemed).

The issue was she was an accountant, so very used to a very cold /
black and white view of the world and had a plan from very young age
how her life should be. Find boy, marry boy, buy house, have children,
see children grow up and leave home but she didn't have any plans for
after that.

He on the other had was a support guy turned IT trainer and so was
*very* used to dealing with and helping / training *people* and so was
very much more tuned into the wants, needs and expectations of
*people*.

So, the kids leave home, they are left with just each other, he would
like love and companionship and she doesn't even consider the idea.

So, to press the point (in vein it seems) he put 'Divorce' on the
calendar and she couldn't see why he would be considering doing so.
He's unlikely to just leave her because he wouldn't want to hurt her,
realising she has no (natural) idea what is wrong (in spit of him
explaining it to her on many occasions).

He rates himself as a right brain 2 (out of 5, unusual for a man, they
are normally left brain 1 ..) and her a left brain 3, again, unusual
for a woman who are normally at least right brained something
(maternal instincts etc).