This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:2020092618160936988-nospam@nospamcom...
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing
vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see
that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer
says just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a
safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.

You're clearly not dealing with a sensible person. As such he's
to be avoided as much as possible, and is certainly not someone
you really want to have any business dealings with.

Regardless of any legal liability, if anything goes does wrong who
do you think is the first person he's going to blame ? Himself
or you ?

What sort of profit do you hope to make if you do as he asked ?

Assuming you get enough business dealing with sensible people
as it is, is it really worth the extra grief ?

Of course this may leave the problem as to how to resolve the
situation. Maybe the sudden unavailability of an essential
component due to Covid, may fit the bill.



michael adams

....

On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor
components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the
deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that
explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they
understand they are accepting any risks resulting.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 2020-09-26 18:15:02 +0000, John Rumm said:

On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that
explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they
understand they are accepting any risks resulting.

Yes that was suggested but some are of the view that it may have no
legal weight especially if you are operating as a business. There is
also a moral duty.

In article 2020092619214054353-nospam@nospamcom,
John Smith wrote:
On 2020-09-26 18:15:02 +0000, John Rumm said:

On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that
explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they
understand they are accepting any risks resulting.

Yes that was suggested but some are of the view that it may have no
legal weight especially if you are operating as a business. There is
also a moral duty.


do a PAT Test. If it passes, that's fine - if it fails, that's fine, too.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing
vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see
that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The
customer says just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a
safe state? Or any liability if you do?

Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the
problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting
any risks resulting.

But the customer clearly doesn't believe John; who has already explained
how dangerous he believes it is. He simply thinks John is trying to charge
him for extra work. Simply getting him to sign a piece of paper isn't
going to convince him either that John is right or of the danger. If
it did, having read it, he'd pay for the extra work to be done. And
neither is it going to make the deck any more safe.

In the event of the customer's house burning or one of his loved ones being
electrocuted, all John's signed piece of paper will indicate is that he was
the last person to work on that deck. And that he succeeded in getting some
idiot to sign a piece of paper supposedly absolving him, John, of all
responsibility for what he John suspected might well happen. As explained
on the piece of paper,

It's hardly good publicity for his business either, is it ?



michael adams

....

On Saturday, 26 September 2020 18:16:14 UTC+1, John Smith wrote:

This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.


I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger. Used goods are not required to be as safe as new ones, but that's not a free pass. I'd bear in mind that courts might theoretically exist to determine what's right, but practically their operation does not match that.

FWIW I'm not sure how a valve would be dangerous. If it were glowing red & touching something flammable it would normally still be the fault of some other part. An unreinforced CRT can be a danger, but there aren't many sets that have those without a protective cover - they do exist though, as historic scopes & IIUC China was knocking such TVs out in the 90s, little battery jobs.


NT

wrote:
On Saturday, 26 September 2020 18:16:14 UTC+1, John Smith wrote:

This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.


I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger.

It's an alternating danger then is it? :-)

--
Chris Green
·

On Saturday, 26 September 2020 20:48:07 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 26 September 2020 18:16:14 UTC+1, John Smith wrote:

This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.


I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger.

It's an alternating danger then is it? :-)

As long as it doesn't get rectifried.

On Saturday, 26 September 2020 20:48:07 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger.
It's an alternating danger then is it? :-)

If the customer is resistant how can you direct them?

And are dodgy capacitors any more dangerous than falling under a bus on the way ohm?

Owain

On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor
components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the
deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.

Walk away. It isn't worth the hassle. "My insurance would be invalid if
I did an incomplete repair, so I'm sorry, but I can't touch it."

This is a common situation with aerial and dish work. They want it
'patching up'. You can't do it. It could fall and kill somebody.

This is also a nightmare for the vehicle repairers.

Bill

On 26/09/2020 20:12, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing
vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see
that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The
customer says just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a
safe state? Or any liability if you do?

Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the
problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting
any risks resulting.

But the customer clearly doesn't believe John; who has already explained
how dangerous he believes it is. He simply thinks John is trying to charge
him for extra work. Simply getting him to sign a piece of paper isn't
going to convince him either that John is right or of the danger. If
it did, having read it, he'd pay for the extra work to be done. And
neither is it going to make the deck any more safe.

In the event of the customer's house burning or one of his loved ones being
electrocuted, all John's signed piece of paper will indicate is that he was
the last person to work on that deck. And that he succeeded in getting some
idiot to sign a piece of paper supposedly absolving him, John, of all
responsibility for what he John suspected might well happen. As explained
on the piece of paper,

It's hardly good publicity for his business either, is it ?

Its a judgement call. How confident are you that its actually unsafe
right now? Do you expect other professionals would be of the same opinion?

How about a case where you take your car to have the tracking adjusted,
and the garage do the requested work, but also give you a notification
that the brake pads are close to the wear limit, and are unlikely to
last until the next service and, after another couple of k miles, would
not pass a MoT either?

In some cases its more clear cut, say a customer wanted a circuit
extended, and an electrician highlighted that they could only do the
work legally if they also upgraded the substandard main equipotential
bonding while doing the work. The customer may be of the same opinion
that this is just a money making ruse, but the electrician can at least
point at the rules, and also be fairly confident that should the
customer go elsewhere they will get a similar response. Making it less
likely the customer will then go round bad mouthing the first chap as a
rip off merchant.

In general I am not a fan of playing nanny however if it really looks
like the customer is a danger to himself and a potential PITA, then by
all means decline the work. If its less clear cut, then make it clear
you believe there may be risks, and make sure there is an audit trail
that shows you made it clear!



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:34:19 +0100, williamwright wrote:

On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.

Walk away. It isn't worth the hassle. "My insurance would be invalid if
I did an incomplete repair, so I'm sorry, but I can't touch it."

This is a common situation with aerial and dish work. They want it
'patching up'. You can't do it. It could fall and kill somebody.

This is also a nightmare for the vehicle repairers.

Bill

+1

On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:48:06 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

In general I am not a fan of playing nanny however if it really looks
like the customer is a danger to himself and a potential PITA, then by
all means decline the work.

+1

If its less clear cut, then make it clear you believe there may be
risks, and make sure there is an audit trail that shows you made it
clear!

And be prepared to sign your house, savings, investments, etc over to
the lawyers arguing about it.

This is in the "professional" scenario, ie the repairer is set up to
do the work, advertises their services, makes a significant (FSVO
"significant") part of their income from the repairs, etc.

A "volunteer" say in Repair Cafe, you invoke "best endeavours" and
insist that all clients sign a disclaimer that also includes a refuse
to repair, no guarantee, etc, clauses.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article 2020092618160936988-nospam@nospamcom,
John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.

There are plenty of examples of old valve gear which wouldn't pass modern
safety checks even when perfect.

--
*Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/09/2020 09:37, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:48:06 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

In general I am not a fan of playing nanny however if it really looks
like the customer is a danger to himself and a potential PITA, then by
all means decline the work.

+1

If its less clear cut, then make it clear you believe there may be
risks, and make sure there is an audit trail that shows you made it
clear!

And be prepared to sign your house, savings, investments, etc over to
the lawyers arguing about it.

This is in the "professional" scenario, ie the repairer is set up to
do the work, advertises their services, makes a significant (FSVO
"significant") part of their income from the repairs, etc.


I'd just add that it seems to me further complicated by the statutory
bar on terms which try to exclude or limit a trader's liability in the
event of a consumer's death/injury from something the trader did or
omitted to do.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

John Rumm wrote:

Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that
explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they
understand they are accepting any risks resulting.

Return it with a fuse removed, and refer to that in the waiver, so by
re-inserting it they accept liability?

Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable?
If they want it fixed, then I think you should advise you would make it all
safe or not touch it with the barge pole, after all it might be you who
touches the anode!
Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"John Smith" wrote in message
news:2020092618160936988-nospam@nospamcom...
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor
components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the
deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the
system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.

No don't lie, I have to say when I were young and sighted, many people were
blissfully unaware of the danger that was lurking, and were only too glad to
pay to get the whole thing fixed up.
I'd not say all are idiots, by any means, just not appreciative of the
dangers, that is all.

Brian

--
--
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"michael adams" wrote in message
...

"John Smith" wrote in message
news:2020092618160936988-nospam@nospamcom...
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor
components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the
deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.

You're clearly not dealing with a sensible person. As such he's
to be avoided as much as possible, and is certainly not someone
you really want to have any business dealings with.

Regardless of any legal liability, if anything goes does wrong who
do you think is the first person he's going to blame ? Himself
or you ?

What sort of profit do you hope to make if you do as he asked ?

Assuming you get enough business dealing with sensible people
as it is, is it really worth the extra grief ?

Of course this may leave the problem as to how to resolve the
situation. Maybe the sudden unavailability of an essential
component due to Covid, may fit the bill.



michael adams

...

In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable?

I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit.

Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-)

--
*When you get a bladder infection urine trouble.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable?

I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit.

Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-)

You'll be giving someone an idea now.

In article ,
newshound wrote:
On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable?

I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit.

Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-)

You'll be giving someone an idea now.

I did once have a tape deck that needed valves for the transport. Had DC
brakes, provided by a valve rectifier. But I'd guess oscillator rather
than mains locked record decks are a bit newer than valves.

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sunday, 27 September 2020 12:42:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable?

I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit.

Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-)

You'll be giving someone an idea now.

It was done before record players got electronics. The needle moved a grating over another grating, acting as a valve modulating a stream of compressed air. Feed that into a horn and the output was LOUD. Lots of hiss was a downside.


NT

I think the OPs questions has been pretty well answered. Someone suggested that at least in electrics, you could be confident that if you told a customer certain safety features were needed, at least if he went to another electrician they would just confirm this. I have to say, having seen some "Electricans' work and also having seen them discuss stuff in other threads, this is far from the case. I recently saw an advert for a local electrician who was showing off a recent "Fuse Box" (his words) install. I can't remember precisely, but if there was an RCD / RCBO in it, there was only one (so a maximum one for the whole install). I also saw a discussion where some thought it was ok to leave a wylex rewirable fuse CU in situ and add a whole house RCD in front of it, and others who said it had to come out and a 17th / 18th edition CU go in (can't remember how long ago this was). Strictly, I suppose if the house was old enough, it wasn't a requirement to fit an RCD at all.

In article ,
wrote:
On Sunday, 27 September 2020 12:42:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote:
Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable?

I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit.

Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-)

You'll be giving someone an idea now.

It was done before record players got electronics. The needle moved a
grating over another grating, acting as a valve modulating a stream of
compressed air. Feed that into a horn and the output was LOUD. Lots of
hiss was a downside.

That is not the turntable, though. It is the pickup device.


NT

--
*I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/09/2020 10:39, Chris Holmes wrote:

I think the OPs questions has been pretty well answered. Someone
suggested that at least in electrics, you could be confident that if
you told a customer certain safety features were needed, at least if
he went to another electrician they would just confirm this. I have

Perhaps I should have said another "reputable" electrician. Yup there
are sure to be chancers available that will do what you ask even if not
sensible or legal, and take your money.

to say, having seen some "Electricans' work and also having seen them
discuss stuff in other threads, this is far from the case. I
recently saw an advert for a local electrician who was showing off a
recent "Fuse Box" (his words) install. I can't remember precisely,
but if there was an RCD / RCBO in it, there was only one (so a
maximum one for the whole install).

See above, although keep in mind you don't know if the CU was actually a
house CU or say one in a garage, where one RCD may be acceptable.

I also saw a discussion where
some thought it was ok to leave a wylex rewirable fuse CU in situ and
add a whole house RCD in front of it, and others who said it had to
come out and a 17th / 18th edition CU go in (can't remember how long
ago this was). Strictly, I suppose if the house was old enough, it
wasn't a requirement to fit an RCD at all.

Unless doing other work like adding a socket. Now you could do that with
a RCD socket, but if attaching a normal one to the circuit then it would
need a RCD now.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.



Not electrical, but Ive just watched an old episode of €œThe Repair Shop€�
where they renovated an old home-made babys cot.

It was obvious to me that the bar spacing was *way* over modern spec but
the cot was supposedly being restored to be used again (and indeed they
showed a baby in it at the end).

Now maybe off camera they advised against using it but I thought it was a
bit remiss not to air the point that old cots can be dangerous.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On Monday, 28 September 2020 22:05:56 UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
John Smith wrote:

This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to
repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage
valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says
just service the deck.

Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return
the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do?

I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler.



Not electrical, but Ive just watched an old episode of €œThe Repair Shop€�
where they renovated an old home-made babys cot.

It was obvious to me that the bar spacing was *way* over modern spec but
the cot was supposedly being restored to be used again (and indeed they
showed a baby in it at the end).

Now maybe off camera they advised against using it but I thought it was a
bit remiss not to air the point that old cots can be dangerous.

Tim

They can, but way over modern spacing also means they won't get their head stuck.


NT

On 30/09/2020 01:02, wrote:
On Monday, 28 September 2020 22:05:56 UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:

Now maybe off camera they advised against using it but I thought it was a
bit remiss not to air the point that old cots can be dangerous.

They can, but way over modern spacing also means they won't get their head stuck.


Presumably at some point their heads grow to a point where they will
stick. Also with small babies if their heads go through the rest will
probably follow.

Andy