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Duty of care as a repairer - safety
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in
repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
"John Smith" wrote in message news:2020092618160936988-nospam@nospamcom... This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. You're clearly not dealing with a sensible person. As such he's to be avoided as much as possible, and is certainly not someone you really want to have any business dealings with. Regardless of any legal liability, if anything goes does wrong who do you think is the first person he's going to blame ? Himself or you ? What sort of profit do you hope to make if you do as he asked ? Assuming you get enough business dealing with sensible people as it is, is it really worth the extra grief ? Of course this may leave the problem as to how to resolve the situation. Maybe the sudden unavailability of an essential component due to Covid, may fit the bill. michael adams .... |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting any risks resulting. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On 2020-09-26 18:15:02 +0000, John Rumm said:
On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting any risks resulting. Yes that was suggested but some are of the view that it may have no legal weight especially if you are operating as a business. There is also a moral duty. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
In article 2020092619214054353-nospam@nospamcom,
John Smith wrote: On 2020-09-26 18:15:02 +0000, John Rumm said: On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting any risks resulting. Yes that was suggested but some are of the view that it may have no legal weight especially if you are operating as a business. There is also a moral duty. do a PAT Test. If it passes, that's fine - if it fails, that's fine, too. -- from KT24 in Surrey, England "I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting any risks resulting. But the customer clearly doesn't believe John; who has already explained how dangerous he believes it is. He simply thinks John is trying to charge him for extra work. Simply getting him to sign a piece of paper isn't going to convince him either that John is right or of the danger. If it did, having read it, he'd pay for the extra work to be done. And neither is it going to make the deck any more safe. In the event of the customer's house burning or one of his loved ones being electrocuted, all John's signed piece of paper will indicate is that he was the last person to work on that deck. And that he succeeded in getting some idiot to sign a piece of paper supposedly absolving him, John, of all responsibility for what he John suspected might well happen. As explained on the piece of paper, It's hardly good publicity for his business either, is it ? michael adams .... |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On Saturday, 26 September 2020 18:16:14 UTC+1, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger. Used goods are not required to be as safe as new ones, but that's not a free pass. I'd bear in mind that courts might theoretically exist to determine what's right, but practically their operation does not match that. FWIW I'm not sure how a valve would be dangerous. If it were glowing red & touching something flammable it would normally still be the fault of some other part. An unreinforced CRT can be a danger, but there aren't many sets that have those without a protective cover - they do exist though, as historic scopes & IIUC China was knocking such TVs out in the 90s, little battery jobs. NT |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
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Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On Saturday, 26 September 2020 20:48:07 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
tabbypurr wrote: On Saturday, 26 September 2020 18:16:14 UTC+1, John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger. It's an alternating danger then is it? :-) As long as it doesn't get rectifried. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On Saturday, 26 September 2020 20:48:07 UTC+1, Chris Green wrote:
I'd quote for a job that included rectifying the danger. It's an alternating danger then is it? :-) If the customer is resistant how can you direct them? And are dodgy capacitors any more dangerous than falling under a bus on the way ohm? Owain |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. Walk away. It isn't worth the hassle. "My insurance would be invalid if I did an incomplete repair, so I'm sorry, but I can't touch it." This is a common situation with aerial and dish work. They want it 'patching up'. You can't do it. It could fall and kill somebody. This is also a nightmare for the vehicle repairers. Bill |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On 26/09/2020 20:12, michael adams wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message ... On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting any risks resulting. But the customer clearly doesn't believe John; who has already explained how dangerous he believes it is. He simply thinks John is trying to charge him for extra work. Simply getting him to sign a piece of paper isn't going to convince him either that John is right or of the danger. If it did, having read it, he'd pay for the extra work to be done. And neither is it going to make the deck any more safe. In the event of the customer's house burning or one of his loved ones being electrocuted, all John's signed piece of paper will indicate is that he was the last person to work on that deck. And that he succeeded in getting some idiot to sign a piece of paper supposedly absolving him, John, of all responsibility for what he John suspected might well happen. As explained on the piece of paper, It's hardly good publicity for his business either, is it ? Its a judgement call. How confident are you that its actually unsafe right now? Do you expect other professionals would be of the same opinion? How about a case where you take your car to have the tracking adjusted, and the garage do the requested work, but also give you a notification that the brake pads are close to the wear limit, and are unlikely to last until the next service and, after another couple of k miles, would not pass a MoT either? In some cases its more clear cut, say a customer wanted a circuit extended, and an electrician highlighted that they could only do the work legally if they also upgraded the substandard main equipotential bonding while doing the work. The customer may be of the same opinion that this is just a money making ruse, but the electrician can at least point at the rules, and also be fairly confident that should the customer go elsewhere they will get a similar response. Making it less likely the customer will then go round bad mouthing the first chap as a rip off merchant. In general I am not a fan of playing nanny however if it really looks like the customer is a danger to himself and a potential PITA, then by all means decline the work. If its less clear cut, then make it clear you believe there may be risks, and make sure there is an audit trail that shows you made it clear! -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:34:19 +0100, williamwright wrote:
On 26/09/2020 18:16, John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. Walk away. It isn't worth the hassle. "My insurance would be invalid if I did an incomplete repair, so I'm sorry, but I can't touch it." This is a common situation with aerial and dish work. They want it 'patching up'. You can't do it. It could fall and kill somebody. This is also a nightmare for the vehicle repairers. Bill +1 |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:48:06 +0100, John Rumm wrote:
In general I am not a fan of playing nanny however if it really looks like the customer is a danger to himself and a potential PITA, then by all means decline the work. +1 If its less clear cut, then make it clear you believe there may be risks, and make sure there is an audit trail that shows you made it clear! And be prepared to sign your house, savings, investments, etc over to the lawyers arguing about it. This is in the "professional" scenario, ie the repairer is set up to do the work, advertises their services, makes a significant (FSVO "significant") part of their income from the repairs, etc. A "volunteer" say in Repair Cafe, you invoke "best endeavours" and insist that all clients sign a disclaimer that also includes a refuse to repair, no guarantee, etc, clauses. -- Cheers Dave. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
In article 2020092618160936988-nospam@nospamcom,
John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. There are plenty of examples of old valve gear which wouldn't pass modern safety checks even when perfect. -- *Do paediatricians play miniature golf on Wednesdays? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On 27/09/2020 09:37, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sat, 26 Sep 2020 21:48:06 +0100, John Rumm wrote: In general I am not a fan of playing nanny however if it really looks like the customer is a danger to himself and a potential PITA, then by all means decline the work. +1 If its less clear cut, then make it clear you believe there may be risks, and make sure there is an audit trail that shows you made it clear! And be prepared to sign your house, savings, investments, etc over to the lawyers arguing about it. This is in the "professional" scenario, ie the repairer is set up to do the work, advertises their services, makes a significant (FSVO "significant") part of their income from the repairs, etc. I'd just add that it seems to me further complicated by the statutory bar on terms which try to exclude or limit a trader's liability in the event of a consumer's death/injury from something the trader did or omitted to do. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
John Rumm wrote:
Well you could do as asked, but ask them to sign a waiver / memo that explains the problem with the kit and the associated risks. SO they understand they are accepting any risks resulting. Return it with a fuse removed, and refer to that in the waiver, so by re-inserting it they accept liability? |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
No don't lie, I have to say when I were young and sighted, many people were
blissfully unaware of the danger that was lurking, and were only too glad to pay to get the whole thing fixed up. I'd not say all are idiots, by any means, just not appreciative of the dangers, that is all. Brian -- -- This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please Note this Signature is meaningless.! "michael adams" wrote in message ... "John Smith" wrote in message news:2020092618160936988-nospam@nospamcom... This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. You're clearly not dealing with a sensible person. As such he's to be avoided as much as possible, and is certainly not someone you really want to have any business dealings with. Regardless of any legal liability, if anything goes does wrong who do you think is the first person he's going to blame ? Himself or you ? What sort of profit do you hope to make if you do as he asked ? Assuming you get enough business dealing with sensible people as it is, is it really worth the extra grief ? Of course this may leave the problem as to how to resolve the situation. Maybe the sudden unavailability of an essential component due to Covid, may fit the bill. michael adams ... |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
In article ,
Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote: Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable? I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit. Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-) -- *When you get a bladder infection urine trouble.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote: Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable? I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit. Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-) You'll be giving someone an idea now. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
In article ,
newshound wrote: On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote: Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable? I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit. Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-) You'll be giving someone an idea now. I did once have a tape deck that needed valves for the transport. Had DC brakes, provided by a valve rectifier. But I'd guess oscillator rather than mains locked record decks are a bit newer than valves. -- *The older you get, the better you realize you were. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On Sunday, 27 September 2020 12:42:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote: Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable? I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit. Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-) You'll be giving someone an idea now. It was done before record players got electronics. The needle moved a grating over another grating, acting as a valve modulating a stream of compressed air. Feed that into a horn and the output was LOUD. Lots of hiss was a downside. NT |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
I think the OPs questions has been pretty well answered. Someone suggested that at least in electrics, you could be confident that if you told a customer certain safety features were needed, at least if he went to another electrician they would just confirm this. I have to say, having seen some "Electricans' work and also having seen them discuss stuff in other threads, this is far from the case. I recently saw an advert for a local electrician who was showing off a recent "Fuse Box" (his words) install. I can't remember precisely, but if there was an RCD / RCBO in it, there was only one (so a maximum one for the whole install). I also saw a discussion where some thought it was ok to leave a wylex rewirable fuse CU in situ and add a whole house RCD in front of it, and others who said it had to come out and a 17th / 18th edition CU go in (can't remember how long ago this was). Strictly, I suppose if the house was old enough, it wasn't a requirement to fit an RCD at all.
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Duty of care as a repairer - safety
In article ,
wrote: On Sunday, 27 September 2020 12:42:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote: On 27/09/2020 11:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Brian Gaff \(Sofa\) wrote: Well, why would they be bringing the amp if its the turntable? I assumed it was an old record player. All in one unit. Never ever seen a turntable that had valves. ;-) You'll be giving someone an idea now. It was done before record players got electronics. The needle moved a grating over another grating, acting as a valve modulating a stream of compressed air. Feed that into a horn and the output was LOUD. Lots of hiss was a downside. That is not the turntable, though. It is the pickup device. NT -- *I will always cherish the initial misconceptions I had about you Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On 28/09/2020 10:39, Chris Holmes wrote:
I think the OPs questions has been pretty well answered. Someone suggested that at least in electrics, you could be confident that if you told a customer certain safety features were needed, at least if he went to another electrician they would just confirm this. I have Perhaps I should have said another "reputable" electrician. Yup there are sure to be chancers available that will do what you ask even if not sensible or legal, and take your money. to say, having seen some "Electricans' work and also having seen them discuss stuff in other threads, this is far from the case. I recently saw an advert for a local electrician who was showing off a recent "Fuse Box" (his words) install. I can't remember precisely, but if there was an RCD / RCBO in it, there was only one (so a maximum one for the whole install). See above, although keep in mind you don't know if the CU was actually a house CU or say one in a garage, where one RCD may be acceptable. I also saw a discussion where some thought it was ok to leave a wylex rewirable fuse CU in situ and add a whole house RCD in front of it, and others who said it had to come out and a 17th / 18th edition CU go in (can't remember how long ago this was). Strictly, I suppose if the house was old enough, it wasn't a requirement to fit an RCD at all. Unless doing other work like adding a socket. Now you could do that with a RCD socket, but if attaching a normal one to the circuit then it would need a RCD now. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
John Smith wrote:
This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. Not electrical, but Ive just watched an old episode of The Repair Shop where they renovated an old home-made babys cot. It was obvious to me that the bar spacing was *way* over modern spec but the cot was supposedly being restored to be used again (and indeed they showed a baby in it at the end). Now maybe off camera they advised against using it but I thought it was a bit remiss not to air the point that old cots can be dangerous. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
On Monday, 28 September 2020 22:05:56 UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:
John Smith wrote: This has come up on another forum. Let's say you specialise in repairing/servicing vintage hi-fi. A customer brings a system to you to repair the record deck but you see that the high voltage valve/capacitor components are in a dangerous state. The customer says just service the deck. Do you have any duty to decline the repair/service as you can't return the system in a safe state? Or any liability if you do? I appreciate this isn't the same as say a gas boiler. Not electrical, but Ive just watched an old episode of The Repair Shop where they renovated an old home-made babys cot. It was obvious to me that the bar spacing was *way* over modern spec but the cot was supposedly being restored to be used again (and indeed they showed a baby in it at the end). Now maybe off camera they advised against using it but I thought it was a bit remiss not to air the point that old cots can be dangerous. Tim They can, but way over modern spacing also means they won't get their head stuck. NT |
Duty of care as a repairer - safety
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