https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649


anybody used one of these or similar ?...

"Jim GM4DHJ ..." Wrote in message:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649


anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The description says it's not what you think it is....

I'd put the 40 odd quid towards the cost of finding & fixing the
leak(s).
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 05/07/2020 09:19, Jimk wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." Wrote in message:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649


anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The description says it's not what you think it is....

I'd put the 40 odd quid towards the cost of finding & fixing the
leak(s).

but mine has lost pressure over 13 years....just need to top it up...I
would try the leak stuff if it doesn't hold....

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On 05/07/2020 08:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649



anybody used one of these or similar ?...


It possibly will not help if your A/C does not work at all as that may
indicate other problems such as a leak maybe because seals have dried
out during a lengthy period of not using the AC.

For me, a few years back I went down this route on an old car and didn't
work as expected on a A/C system that hadn't been maintained for years.
Depending where the access points to A/C are it can be a bit of a PITA.
On my previous car it was wheel off, wheel arch liner removal and
limited access afterwards. Possibly a lot more access if the car was on
a lift but not when working on a driveway

My local car A/C recon service charged £60 (incl VAT) to do it properly.
They had the equipment to automatically evacuate the old gas, vacuum dry
the system as well as recharging with gas, oil and to add (leak) trace
dye. They said that they added the dye to every recharge cover any short
term returns where the dye highlights any problems that may not have
been found during the recharge.

It's the intermediate processes of getting any water out and drying the
system that is as important as the re-gassing. I was lucky on my
previous car that no leak was detected but the amount of gas in the
system was very low. I got a print-out of gas out, gas in and other
various parameters measured during the process.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 05/07/2020 09:19, Jimk wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." Wrote in message:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649


anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The description says it's not what you think it is....

I'd put the 40 odd quid towards the cost of finding & fixing the
leak(s).


Very confusing listing
Is it the hose only as per detailed in two places in the description?
Only at the bottom of the listing does it indicate you get a can of gas.
Its not R134A

And is one can of gas enough for the task - add one more can and you
have the price of of a professional service.

Quick check on "who can fix my car" web site - average quote for a A/C
service is £63 based on a sample of 67,000 quotes. As a main dealer will
probably charge another arm and leg for this service shopping around may
result in a cheaper price. I assume that the quotes are for the standard
service using a machine that automatically goes through all the stages
(including gas) taking around 30 to 40 minutes - and not for the repair
of any faults found during the process.


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On 05/07/2020 10:04, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 09:19, Jimk wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." Wrote in message:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649



anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The description says it'sÂ* not what you think it is....

I'd put the 40 odd quid towards the cost of finding & fixing the
Â* leak(s).


Very confusing listing
Is it the hose only as per detailed in two places in the description?
Only at the bottom of the listing does it indicate you get a can of gas.
Its not R134A

And is one can of gas enough for the task - add one more can and you
have the price of of a professional service.

Quick check on "who can fix my car" web site - average quote for a A/C
service is £63 based on a sample of 67,000 quotes. As a main dealer will
probably charge another arm and leg for this service shopping around may
result in a cheaper price. I assume that the quotes are for the standard
service using a machine that automatically goes through all the stages
(including gas) taking around 30 to 40 minutes - and not for the repair
of any faults found during the process.


well I have sent for the connector with pressure meter for £8 from china
just need a bottle of R134A replacement gas for about £20 now...just
wondered if anybody has tried it...you obviously haven't....

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On 05/07/2020 09:45, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649



anybody used one of these or similar ?...


It possibly will not help if your A/C does not work at all as that may
indicate other problems such as a leak maybe because seals have dried
out during a lengthy period of not using the AC.

For me, a few years back I went down this route on an old car and didn't
work as expected on a A/C system that hadn't been maintained for years.
Depending where the access points to A/C are it can be a bit of a PITA.
On my previous car it was wheel off, wheel arch liner removal and
limited access afterwards. Possibly a lot more access if the car was on
a lift but not when working on a driveway

My local car A/C recon service charged £60 (incl VAT) to do it properly.
They had the equipment to automatically evacuate the old gas, vacuum dry
the system as well as recharging with gas, oil and to add (leak) trace
dye. They said that they added the dye to every recharge cover any short
term returns where the dye highlights any problems that may not have
been found during the recharge.

It's the intermediate processes of getting any water out and drying the
system that is as important as the re-gassing. I was lucky on my
previous car that no leak was detected but the amount of gas in the
system was very low. I got a print-out of gas out, gas in and other
various parameters measured during the process.

well I think it has lost pressure through seals over a long period so
I'm hoping there are no leaks ...worth a punt for about £30 small bottle
should do one car big bottle should do three cars...wagon r has the
connectors high and low very accessable...

--
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On 05/07/2020 10:41, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 09:45, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649



anybody used one of these or similar ?...


It possibly will not help if your A/C does not work at all as that may
indicate other problems such as a leak maybe because seals have dried
out during a lengthy period of not using the AC.

For me, a few years back I went down this route on an old car and
didn't work as expected on a A/C system that hadn't been maintained
for years. Depending where the access points to A/C are it can be a
bit of a PITA. On my previous car it was wheel off, wheel arch liner
removal and limited access afterwards. Possibly a lot more access if
the car was on a lift but not when working on a driveway

My local car A/C recon service charged £60 (incl VAT) to do it
properly. They had the equipment to automatically evacuate the old
gas, vacuum dry the system as well as recharging with gas, oil and to
add (leak) trace dye. They said that they added the dye to every
recharge cover any short term returns where the dye highlights any
problems that may not have been found during the recharge.

It's the intermediate processes of getting any water out and drying
the system that is as important as the re-gassing. I was lucky on my
previous car that no leak was detected but the amount of gas in the
system was very low. I got a print-out of gas out, gas in and other
various parameters measured during the process.

well I think it has lost pressure through seals over a long period so
I'm hoping there are no leaks ...worth a punt for about £30 small bottle
should do one car big bottle should do three cars...wagon r has the
connectors high and low very accessable...



I found when using the can method I was still left with a lot in the
can, less than I started with but still a lot. Subsequently getting it
done by a re-gas service showed that the system was still very low on
gas. Perhaps the pressure in the can alone isn't enough to recharge the
complete system? When the machines do the task first they generate a
vacuum both to dry the system and detect leaks and use this vacuum to
help replace the gas.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 05/07/2020 11:18, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 10:41, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 09:45, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649



anybody used one of these or similar ?...


It possibly will not help if your A/C does not work at all as that
may indicate other problems such as a leak maybe because seals have
dried out during a lengthy period of not using the AC.

For me, a few years back I went down this route on an old car and
didn't work as expected on a A/C system that hadn't been maintained
for years. Depending where the access points to A/C are it can be a
bit of a PITA. On my previous car it was wheel off, wheel arch liner
removal and limited access afterwards. Possibly a lot more access if
the car was on a lift but not when working on a driveway

My local car A/C recon service charged £60 (incl VAT) to do it
properly. They had the equipment to automatically evacuate the old
gas, vacuum dry the system as well as recharging with gas, oil and to
add (leak) trace dye. They said that they added the dye to every
recharge cover any short term returns where the dye highlights any
problems that may not have been found during the recharge.

It's the intermediate processes of getting any water out and drying
the system that is as important as the re-gassing. I was lucky on my
previous car that no leak was detected but the amount of gas in the
system was very low. I got a print-out of gas out, gas in and other
various parameters measured during the process.

well I think it has lost pressure through seals over a long period so
I'm hoping there are no leaks ...worth a punt for about £30 small
bottle should do one car big bottle should do three cars...wagon r has
the connectors high and low very accessable...



I found when using the can method I was still left with a lot in the
can, less than I started with but still a lot. Subsequently getting it
done by a re-gas service showed that the system was still very low on
gas.Â* Perhaps the pressure in the can alone isn't enough to recharge the
complete system? When the machines do the task first they generate a
vacuum both to dry the system and detect leaks and use this vacuum to
help replace the gas.

oh well I will give it a go ...

--
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On 05/07/2020 08:37:53, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649

anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The listing says, "the gas is not R134a but a direct substitute natural
gas".

Without knowing what this "natural gas" is I won't be buying any.

On 05/07/2020 12:11, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37:53, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649

anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The listing says, "the gas is not R134a but a direct substitute natural
gas".

Without knowing what this "natural gas" is I won't be buying any.

I will as you can't easily buy R134a ....

--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

On 05/07/2020 10:41, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 09:45, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649



anybody used one of these or similar ?...


It possibly will not help if your A/C does not work at all as that may
indicate other problems such as a leak maybe because seals have dried
out during a lengthy period of not using the AC.

For me, a few years back I went down this route on an old car and
didn't work as expected on a A/C system that hadn't been maintained
for years. Depending where the access points to A/C are it can be a
bit of a PITA. On my previous car it was wheel off, wheel arch liner
removal and limited access afterwards. Possibly a lot more access if
the car was on a lift but not when working on a driveway

My local car A/C recon service charged £60 (incl VAT) to do it
properly. They had the equipment to automatically evacuate the old
gas, vacuum dry the system as well as recharging with gas, oil and to
add (leak) trace dye. They said that they added the dye to every
recharge cover any short term returns where the dye highlights any
problems that may not have been found during the recharge.

It's the intermediate processes of getting any water out and drying
the system that is as important as the re-gassing. I was lucky on my
previous car that no leak was detected but the amount of gas in the
system was very low. I got a print-out of gas out, gas in and other
various parameters measured during the process.

well I think it has lost pressure through seals over a long period so
I'm hoping there are no leaks ...worth a punt for about £30 small bottle
should do one car big bottle should do three cars...wagon r has the
connectors high and low very accessable...


Why do you need aircon in Glasgow ? :-)

On 05/07/2020 12:54, Andrew wrote:



Why do you need aircon in Glasgow ? :-)


You need A/C to dry the air before super-heating it to get a comfortable
temperature in Scotchland.

--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 12:11, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37:53, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649

anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The listing says, "the gas is not R134a but a direct substitute
natural gas".

Without knowing what this "natural gas" is I won't be buying any.

I will as you can't easily buy R134a ....


Why would an advert *not* mention the can contents ?
Well, you're going to find out.

The gas is butane or propane or methane. They don't
want you to know they're putting a non-A1 gas in your
system!

Now are you going to put that in your car ?

What if the butane or propane or methane all leaks
out while you're parked in a garage, you enter the
room, use a light switch, there is the usual tiny
spark and *boom*, you're sent into outer space.

These are the concerns about buying "just any olde gas
in a can to fill my stinking car".

The worst case would be if the gas is propane (HC-290).

The unfortunate part, is refrigerators for the kitchen
now use some of these flammable refrigerants instead of
a safe one. There are some pictures around of the damage
to a kitchen when such refrigerators are used. Do you have
fire alarms ? Well, you should if you get a new fridge.
You should also find out what they're charged with, in
the spec sheet.

*******

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/13...ng-with-r-134a

For many years, hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-134a was the alternate refrigerant
of choice to replace chlorofluorocarbon (CFC)-12 in many medium- and
high-temperature stationary refrigeration, air conditioning, and automotive
air conditioning applications. The pressure/temperature relationship and the
latent heat values of R-134a are very similar to those of R-12. Also, R-134a
is a very safe refrigerant with an ASHRAE safety classification of A1. ===

This means it is not flammable and has very low toxicity levels. Because
HFC-134a has no chlorine in its molecule, it has a zero ozone-depletion
potential (ODP) and doesnt deplete the stratospheric ozone layer.

R-134a is not a refrigerant blend. It is considered a pure compound and has
only one molecule. The R-134a molecule is ethane-based and consists of
carbon (C), fluorine (F), and hydrogen (H).

EVAPORATOR TEMPERATURE APPLICATION

As a medium- and high-temperature refrigerant, R-134a is not usually used in
low-temperature applications. R-134a loses some capacity when compared to R-12
in low-temperature applications. At lower temperatures, R-134a has a slightly
lower pressure than R-12, and at higher temperatures, R-134a has a bit of a
higher pressure when compared to R-12. Otherwise, both refrigerants
pressure/temperature relationships closely compare.

R-134a often operates with a very low pressure €” if not a slight vacuum €” in
low-temperature applications. At about minus 15°F evaporating temperature,
R-134a starts to fall into a vacuum. These lower pressures in lower temperature
applications cause higher compression ratios, higher discharge temperatures, and
low efficiencies €” not to mention added stress on a systems compressor.

LUBRICANT

R-134a refrigeration systems use synthetic polyolester (POE) lubricants
while the automotive industry typically has used polyalkylene glycol (PAG)
lubricants. Polarity differences between commonly used organic mineral oils
and HFC refrigerants make R-134a insoluble, thus incompatible with mineral oils
that were used in many refrigeration and air conditioning applications. R-134a
was never intended to be a direct drop-in replacement for any refrigerant, and
retrofit guidelines had to be followed when retrofitting a system to R-134a.

GLOBAL WARMING LEGISLATION

R-134a has a global-warming potential (GWP) of 1,430. This means it traps 1,430
times as much heat per kilogram as carbon dioxide does over a 100-year period.
Because R-134a has such a high GWP, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency
(EPA) listed R-134a as an "unacceptable" refrigerant for certain refrigeration
and air conditioning applications under its Significant New Alternatives Policy
(SNAP) program. These applications include:

New light-duty motor vehicle air conditioning, starting in 2021, with a few narrow
use limit exceptions. The exceptions are for newly manufactured light-duty
vehicles destined for use in countries that do not have infrastructures in place
for servicing with other acceptable refrigerants. The narrow use limit will
continue through model year 2025;

Beginning in model year 2026, R-134a will be unacceptable for use in all newly
manufactured light-duty vehicles;

New vending machines as of Jan. 1, 2019;

New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor capacity below
2,200 Btuh not containing a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2019; and
New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor capacity equal to
or greater than 2,200 Btuh and stand-alone medium-temperature units containing
a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2020.

SOME R-134a REPLACEMENT OPTIONS

There are a number of candidates to replace R-134a in the applications for which
it will be deemed unacceptable by the EPA.

HFO-1234yf €” Hydrofluoroolefin (HFO)-1234yf is a low-GWP replacement for R-134a
intended for use in mobile air conditioning systems in the
automotive industry. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP of 4.
HFO-1234yfs GWP is more than 300 times less than that of R-134a.
Many European and some U.S. car manufacturers are currently using
HFO-1234yf for mobile air conditioning applications. HFO-1234yf
has one of the lowest switching cost for automakers compared to
other alternatives. It is classified as a low-toxicity but

slightly flammable ===

refrigerant by ASHRAE with an A2L safety classification. The
continued development of standards and codes for safe use of mildly
flammable A2L refrigerants is very important. HFO-1234yf is miscible
in POE lubricants. The miscibility of HFOs with POE lubricants is
comparable to that of R-134a. HFOs are not soluble in mineral oil or
alkylbenzene lubricants.

HFO-1234ze €” HFO-1234ze can be used in vending machines, refrigerators, beverage
dispensers, air dryers, and carbon dioxide cascade systems in
commercial refrigeration. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP of 6. Other
applications include both air- and water-cooled chillers in
supermarkets and commercial buildings. HFO-1234ze offers excellent
energy efficiency, is cost-effective, and can be used in existing
equipment design with minimal changes. HFO-1234ze also offers
advantages over R-32, which has a medium GWP, an A2 refrigerant
safety rating, and high discharge temperatures. The miscibility of
HFO-1234ze with POE lubricants is comparable to that of R-134a.

HC-290 (Propane) €” Hydrocarbon (HC)-290 has an A3 safety group classification,
meaning it is highly flammable. ===

Its molecule contains nothing but hydrogen and carbon. It has
an ODP of zero and a GWP of 3. As long as the refrigerant
charge doesnt exceed 5.3 ounces (150 grams), it can be used
in freezers, household refrigerators, combination refrigerators
and freezers, room air conditioners, and vending machines. As
with the A2L refrigerants, the continued development of
standards and codes for safe use of flammable refrigerants
is very important.

HC-600a (Isobutane) €” Like HC-290, HC-600a has an A3 (highly flammable) ===
safety group classification. Its molecule contains hydrogen
and carbon. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP of 3. As long as
the refrigerant charge does not exceed 2 ounces (57 grams),
it can be used in vending machines and retail food
refrigeration (stand-alone commercial refrigerators and
freezers). Again, the continued development of standards and
codes for the safe use of HCs is very important.

R-513A €” R-513A is an HFO/HFC blend with an ODP of zero and a GWP of 631. R-513A
has a close performance match to R-134a for new and retrofitted systems.
It is the lowest GWP refrigerant in the A1 safety classification to === safe
replace R-134a in stationary systems.

R-450A €” R-450A is a near-azeotropic refrigerant blend containing an HFO
refrigerant designed to replace R-134a in commercial and industrial
refrigerators as well as air conditioning and chillers. It has a very
low temperature glide and can be used in direct expansion or flooded
evaporator systems. It is compatible with POE lubricants.

Publication date: 6/5/2017

*******

I first learned of some of these alternatives, when reading articles
about three stage refrigeration systems used for computer overclocking.
Some of these cost around $5000 to construct by a professional, and
the operating temperature is around -110F. That's why there are three
stages, each stage removing a little more of the heat.

The guy building the thing (hobbyists can order one and cut a cheque
for $5000 to him), he said "I can charge or blend a gas for one of
the stages that is flammable, but then you could only keep this
machine in your garage. In other words, if the machine leaked, using
one of the flammable gases would fill the living area with a flammable
gas. At the time I read that, there was *zero* use of flammable gases
in most deployed equipment. It was considered as unethical as a politician
telling you to drink bleach.

Today, it seems the little guy, the consumer, is the only sane person
left in the room :-/ And that can of ****-me-over gas is a prime example.

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Paul

On 05/07/2020 14:05, Paul wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 12:11, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37:53, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649

anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The listing says, "the gas is not R134a but a direct substitute
natural gas".

Without knowing what this "natural gas" is I won't be buying any.

I will as you can't easily buy R134a ....


Why would an advert *not* mention the can contents ?
Well, you're going to find out.

The gas is butane or propane or methane. They don't
want you to know they're putting a non-A1 gas in your
system!

Now are you going to put that in your car ?

What if the butane or propane or methane all leaks
out while you're parked in a garage, you enter the
room, use a light switch, there is the usual tiny
spark and *boom*, you're sent into outer space.

These are the concerns about buying "just any olde gas
in a can to fill my stinking car".

The worst case would be if the gas is propane (HC-290).

The unfortunate part, is refrigerators for the kitchen
now use some of these flammable refrigerants instead of
a safe one. There are some pictures around of the damage
to a kitchen when such refrigerators are used. Do you have
fire alarms ? Well, you should if you get a new fridge.
You should also find out what they're charged with, in
the spec sheet.

*******

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/13...ng-with-r-134a

Â*Â* For many years, hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-134a was the alternate
refrigerant
Â*Â* of choice to replace chlorofluorocarbon (CFC)-12 in many medium- and
Â*Â* high-temperature stationary refrigeration, air conditioning, and
automotive
Â*Â* air conditioning applications. The pressure/temperature relationship
and the
Â*Â* latent heat values of R-134a are very similar to those of R-12.
Also, R-134a
Â*Â* is a very safe refrigerant with an ASHRAE safety classification of
A1.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â* This means it is not flammable and has very low toxicity levels.
Because
Â*Â* HFC-134a has no chlorine in its molecule, it has a zero ozone-depletion
Â*Â* potential (ODP) and doesnt deplete the stratospheric ozone layer.

Â*Â* R-134a is not a refrigerant blend. It is considered a pure compound
and has
Â*Â* only one molecule. The R-134a molecule is ethane-based and consists of
Â*Â* carbon (C), fluorine (F), and hydrogen (H).

Â*Â* EVAPORATOR TEMPERATURE APPLICATION

Â*Â* As a medium- and high-temperature refrigerant, R-134a is not usually
used in
Â*Â* low-temperature applications. R-134a loses some capacity when
compared to R-12
Â*Â* in low-temperature applications. At lower temperatures, R-134a has a
slightly
Â*Â* lower pressure than R-12, and at higher temperatures, R-134a has a
bit of a
Â*Â* higher pressure when compared to R-12. Otherwise, both refrigerants
Â*Â* pressure/temperature relationships closely compare.

Â*Â* R-134a often operates with a very low pressure €” if not a slight
vacuum €” in
Â*Â* low-temperature applications. At about minus 15°F evaporating
temperature,
Â*Â* R-134a starts to fall into a vacuum. These lower pressures in lower
temperature
Â*Â* applications cause higher compression ratios, higher discharge
temperatures, and
Â*Â* low efficiencies €” not to mention added stress on a systems
compressor.

Â*Â* LUBRICANT

Â*Â* R-134a refrigeration systems use synthetic polyolester (POE) lubricants
Â*Â* while the automotive industry typically has used polyalkylene glycol
(PAG)
Â*Â* lubricants. Polarity differences between commonly used organic
mineral oils
Â*Â* and HFC refrigerants make R-134a insoluble, thus incompatible with
mineral oils
Â*Â* that were used in many refrigeration and air conditioning
applications. R-134a
Â*Â* was never intended to be a direct drop-in replacement for any
refrigerant, and
Â*Â* retrofit guidelines had to be followed when retrofitting a system to
R-134a.

Â*Â* GLOBAL WARMING LEGISLATION

Â*Â* R-134a has a global-warming potential (GWP) of 1,430. This means it
traps 1,430
Â*Â* times as much heat per kilogram as carbon dioxide does over a
100-year period.
Â*Â* Because R-134a has such a high GWP, the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency
Â*Â* (EPA) listed R-134a as an "unacceptable" refrigerant for certain
refrigeration
Â*Â* and air conditioning applications under its Significant New
Alternatives Policy
Â*Â* (SNAP) program. These applications include:

Â*Â* New light-duty motor vehicle air conditioning, starting in 2021,
with a few narrow
Â*Â* use limit exceptions. The exceptions are for newly manufactured
light-duty
Â*Â* vehicles destined for use in countries that do not have
infrastructures in place
Â*Â* for servicing with other acceptable refrigerants. The narrow use
limit will
Â*Â* continue through model year 2025;

Â*Â* Beginning in model year 2026, R-134a will be unacceptable for use in
all newly
Â*Â* manufactured light-duty vehicles;

Â*Â* New vending machines as of Jan. 1, 2019;

Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor capacity
below
Â*Â* 2,200 Btuh not containing a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2019; and
Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor capacity
equal to
Â*Â* or greater than 2,200 Btuh and stand-alone medium-temperature units
containing
Â*Â* a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2020.

Â*Â* SOME R-134a REPLACEMENT OPTIONS

Â*Â* There are a number of candidates to replace R-134a in the
applications for which
Â*Â* it will be deemed unacceptable by the EPA.

Â*Â* HFO-1234yf €” Hydrofluoroolefin (HFO)-1234yf is a low-GWP replacement
for R-134a
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* intended for use in mobile air conditioning systems in the
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* automotive industry. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP of 4.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yfs GWP is more than 300 times less than that
of R-134a.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Many European and some U.S. car manufacturers are
currently using
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yf for mobile air conditioning applications.
HFO-1234yf
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has one of the lowest switching cost for automakers
compared to
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* other alternatives. It is classified as a low-toxicity but

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* slightly flammable ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant by ASHRAE with an A2L safety
classification. The
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* continued development of standards and codes for safe
use of mildly
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* flammable A2L refrigerants is very important.
HFO-1234yf is miscible
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in POE lubricants. The miscibility of HFOs with POE
lubricants is
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* comparable to that of R-134a. HFOs are not soluble in
mineral oil or
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* alkylbenzene lubricants.

Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze €” HFO-1234ze can be used in vending machines,
refrigerators, beverage
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* dispensers, air dryers, and carbon dioxide cascade
systems in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* commercial refrigeration. It has an ODP of zero and a
GWP of 6. Other
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* applications include both air- and water-cooled
chillers in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* supermarkets and commercial buildings. HFO-1234ze
offers excellent
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* energy efficiency, is cost-effective, and can be used
in existing
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* equipment design with minimal changes. HFO-1234ze also
offers
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* advantages over R-32, which has a medium GWP, an A2
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* safety rating, and high discharge temperatures. The
miscibility of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze with POE lubricants is comparable to that
of R-134a.

Â*Â*Â* HC-290 (Propane) €” Hydrocarbon (HC)-290 has an A3 safety group
classification,
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* meaning it is highly
flammable.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Its molecule contains nothing but hydrogen and
carbon. It has
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* an ODP of zero and a GWP of 3. As long as the
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* charge doesnt exceed 5.3 ounces (150 grams), it
can be used
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in freezers, household refrigerators,
combination refrigerators
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* and freezers, room air conditioners, and vending
machines. As
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* with the A2L refrigerants, the continued
development of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* standards and codes for safe use of flammable
refrigerants
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* is very important.

Â*Â*Â* HC-600a (Isobutane) €” Like HC-290, HC-600a has an A3 (highly
flammable)Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* safety group classification. Its molecule
contains hydrogen
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* and carbon. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 3. As long as
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* the refrigerant charge does not exceed 2
ounces (57 grams),
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* it can be used in vending machines and retail
food
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigeration (stand-alone commercial
refrigerators and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* freezers). Again, the continued development
of standards and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* codes for the safe use of HCs is very important.

Â*Â*Â* R-513A €” R-513A is an HFO/HFC blend with an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 631. R-513A
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has a close performance match to R-134a for new and
retrofitted systems.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* It is the lowest GWP refrigerant in the A1 safety
classification toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â* === safe
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* replace R-134a in stationary systems.

Â*Â*Â* R-450A €” R-450A is a near-azeotropic refrigerant blend containing
an HFO
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant designed to replace R-134a in commercial and
industrial
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerators as well as air conditioning and chillers. It
has a very
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* low temperature glide and can be used in direct expansion
or flooded
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* evaporator systems. It is compatible with POE lubricants.

Â*Â*Â* Publication date: 6/5/2017

*******

I first learned of some of these alternatives, when reading articles
about three stage refrigeration systems used for computer overclocking.
Some of these cost around $5000 to construct by a professional, and
the operating temperature is around -110F. That's why there are three
stages, each stage removing a little more of the heat.

The guy building the thing (hobbyists can order one and cut a cheque
for $5000 to him), he said "I can charge or blend a gas for one of
the stages that is flammable, but then you could only keep this
machine in your garage. In other words, if the machine leaked, using
one of the flammable gases would fill the living area with a flammable
gas. At the time I read that, there was *zero* use of flammable gases
in most deployed equipment. It was considered as unethical as a politician
telling you to drink bleach.

Today, it seems the little guy, the consumer, is the only sane person
left in the room :-/ And that can of ****-me-over gas is a prime example.

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Â*Â* Paul
oh dear thanks for the heads up ......can I just use propane or butane
then...save some cash? ...

On 05/07/2020 14:05, Paul wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 12:11, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37:53, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649

anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The listing says, "the gas is not R134a but a direct substitute
natural gas".

Without knowing what this "natural gas" is I won't be buying any.

I will as you can't easily buy R134a ....


Why would an advert *not* mention the can contents ?
Well, you're going to find out.

The gas is butane or propane or methane. They don't
want you to know they're putting a non-A1 gas in your
system!

Now are you going to put that in your car ?

What if the butane or propane or methane all leaks
out while you're parked in a garage, you enter the
room, use a light switch, there is the usual tiny
spark and *boom*, you're sent into outer space.

These are the concerns about buying "just any olde gas
in a can to fill my stinking car".

The worst case would be if the gas is propane (HC-290).

The unfortunate part, is refrigerators for the kitchen
now use some of these flammable refrigerants instead of
a safe one. There are some pictures around of the damage
to a kitchen when such refrigerators are used. Do you have
fire alarms ? Well, you should if you get a new fridge.
You should also find out what they're charged with, in
the spec sheet.

*******

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/13...ng-with-r-134a

Â*Â* For many years, hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-134a was the alternate
refrigerant
Â*Â* of choice to replace chlorofluorocarbon (CFC)-12 in many medium- and
Â*Â* high-temperature stationary refrigeration, air conditioning, and
automotive
Â*Â* air conditioning applications. The pressure/temperature relationship
and the
Â*Â* latent heat values of R-134a are very similar to those of R-12.
Also, R-134a
Â*Â* is a very safe refrigerant with an ASHRAE safety classification of
A1.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â* This means it is not flammable and has very low toxicity levels.
Because
Â*Â* HFC-134a has no chlorine in its molecule, it has a zero ozone-depletion
Â*Â* potential (ODP) and doesnt deplete the stratospheric ozone layer.

Â*Â* R-134a is not a refrigerant blend. It is considered a pure compound
and has
Â*Â* only one molecule. The R-134a molecule is ethane-based and consists of
Â*Â* carbon (C), fluorine (F), and hydrogen (H).

Â*Â* EVAPORATOR TEMPERATURE APPLICATION

Â*Â* As a medium- and high-temperature refrigerant, R-134a is not usually
used in
Â*Â* low-temperature applications. R-134a loses some capacity when
compared to R-12
Â*Â* in low-temperature applications. At lower temperatures, R-134a has a
slightly
Â*Â* lower pressure than R-12, and at higher temperatures, R-134a has a
bit of a
Â*Â* higher pressure when compared to R-12. Otherwise, both refrigerants
Â*Â* pressure/temperature relationships closely compare.

Â*Â* R-134a often operates with a very low pressure €” if not a slight
vacuum €” in
Â*Â* low-temperature applications. At about minus 15°F evaporating
temperature,
Â*Â* R-134a starts to fall into a vacuum. These lower pressures in lower
temperature
Â*Â* applications cause higher compression ratios, higher discharge
temperatures, and
Â*Â* low efficiencies €” not to mention added stress on a systems
compressor.

Â*Â* LUBRICANT

Â*Â* R-134a refrigeration systems use synthetic polyolester (POE) lubricants
Â*Â* while the automotive industry typically has used polyalkylene glycol
(PAG)
Â*Â* lubricants. Polarity differences between commonly used organic
mineral oils
Â*Â* and HFC refrigerants make R-134a insoluble, thus incompatible with
mineral oils
Â*Â* that were used in many refrigeration and air conditioning
applications. R-134a
Â*Â* was never intended to be a direct drop-in replacement for any
refrigerant, and
Â*Â* retrofit guidelines had to be followed when retrofitting a system to
R-134a.

Â*Â* GLOBAL WARMING LEGISLATION

Â*Â* R-134a has a global-warming potential (GWP) of 1,430. This means it
traps 1,430
Â*Â* times as much heat per kilogram as carbon dioxide does over a
100-year period.
Â*Â* Because R-134a has such a high GWP, the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency
Â*Â* (EPA) listed R-134a as an "unacceptable" refrigerant for certain
refrigeration
Â*Â* and air conditioning applications under its Significant New
Alternatives Policy
Â*Â* (SNAP) program. These applications include:

Â*Â* New light-duty motor vehicle air conditioning, starting in 2021,
with a few narrow
Â*Â* use limit exceptions. The exceptions are for newly manufactured
light-duty
Â*Â* vehicles destined for use in countries that do not have
infrastructures in place
Â*Â* for servicing with other acceptable refrigerants. The narrow use
limit will
Â*Â* continue through model year 2025;

Â*Â* Beginning in model year 2026, R-134a will be unacceptable for use in
all newly
Â*Â* manufactured light-duty vehicles;

Â*Â* New vending machines as of Jan. 1, 2019;

Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor capacity
below
Â*Â* 2,200 Btuh not containing a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2019; and
Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor capacity
equal to
Â*Â* or greater than 2,200 Btuh and stand-alone medium-temperature units
containing
Â*Â* a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2020.

Â*Â* SOME R-134a REPLACEMENT OPTIONS

Â*Â* There are a number of candidates to replace R-134a in the
applications for which
Â*Â* it will be deemed unacceptable by the EPA.

Â*Â* HFO-1234yf €” Hydrofluoroolefin (HFO)-1234yf is a low-GWP replacement
for R-134a
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* intended for use in mobile air conditioning systems in the
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* automotive industry. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP of 4.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yfs GWP is more than 300 times less than that
of R-134a.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Many European and some U.S. car manufacturers are
currently using
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yf for mobile air conditioning applications.
HFO-1234yf
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has one of the lowest switching cost for automakers
compared to
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* other alternatives. It is classified as a low-toxicity but

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* slightly flammable ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant by ASHRAE with an A2L safety
classification. The
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* continued development of standards and codes for safe
use of mildly
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* flammable A2L refrigerants is very important.
HFO-1234yf is miscible
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in POE lubricants. The miscibility of HFOs with POE
lubricants is
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* comparable to that of R-134a. HFOs are not soluble in
mineral oil or
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* alkylbenzene lubricants.

Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze €” HFO-1234ze can be used in vending machines,
refrigerators, beverage
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* dispensers, air dryers, and carbon dioxide cascade
systems in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* commercial refrigeration. It has an ODP of zero and a
GWP of 6. Other
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* applications include both air- and water-cooled
chillers in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* supermarkets and commercial buildings. HFO-1234ze
offers excellent
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* energy efficiency, is cost-effective, and can be used
in existing
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* equipment design with minimal changes. HFO-1234ze also
offers
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* advantages over R-32, which has a medium GWP, an A2
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* safety rating, and high discharge temperatures. The
miscibility of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze with POE lubricants is comparable to that
of R-134a.

Â*Â*Â* HC-290 (Propane) €” Hydrocarbon (HC)-290 has an A3 safety group
classification,
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* meaning it is highly
flammable.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Its molecule contains nothing but hydrogen and
carbon. It has
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* an ODP of zero and a GWP of 3. As long as the
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* charge doesnt exceed 5.3 ounces (150 grams), it
can be used
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in freezers, household refrigerators,
combination refrigerators
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* and freezers, room air conditioners, and vending
machines. As
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* with the A2L refrigerants, the continued
development of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* standards and codes for safe use of flammable
refrigerants
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* is very important.

Â*Â*Â* HC-600a (Isobutane) €” Like HC-290, HC-600a has an A3 (highly
flammable)Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* safety group classification. Its molecule
contains hydrogen
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* and carbon. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 3. As long as
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* the refrigerant charge does not exceed 2
ounces (57 grams),
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* it can be used in vending machines and retail
food
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigeration (stand-alone commercial
refrigerators and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* freezers). Again, the continued development
of standards and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* codes for the safe use of HCs is very important.

Â*Â*Â* R-513A €” R-513A is an HFO/HFC blend with an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 631. R-513A
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has a close performance match to R-134a for new and
retrofitted systems.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* It is the lowest GWP refrigerant in the A1 safety
classification toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â* === safe
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* replace R-134a in stationary systems.

Â*Â*Â* R-450A €” R-450A is a near-azeotropic refrigerant blend containing
an HFO
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant designed to replace R-134a in commercial and
industrial
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerators as well as air conditioning and chillers. It
has a very
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* low temperature glide and can be used in direct expansion
or flooded
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* evaporator systems. It is compatible with POE lubricants.

Â*Â*Â* Publication date: 6/5/2017

*******

I first learned of some of these alternatives, when reading articles
about three stage refrigeration systems used for computer overclocking.
Some of these cost around $5000 to construct by a professional, and
the operating temperature is around -110F. That's why there are three
stages, each stage removing a little more of the heat.

The guy building the thing (hobbyists can order one and cut a cheque
for $5000 to him), he said "I can charge or blend a gas for one of
the stages that is flammable, but then you could only keep this
machine in your garage. In other words, if the machine leaked, using
one of the flammable gases would fill the living area with a flammable
gas. At the time I read that, there was *zero* use of flammable gases
in most deployed equipment. It was considered as unethical as a politician
telling you to drink bleach.

Today, it seems the little guy, the consumer, is the only sane person
left in the room :-/ And that can of ****-me-over gas is a prime example.

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Â*Â* Paul
do you think that is what caused the fire in Grenfel ? ...

On 05/07/2020 15:05, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 14:05, Paul wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 12:11, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37:53, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649

anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The listing says, "the gas is not R134a but a direct substitute
natural gas".

Without knowing what this "natural gas" is I won't be buying any.

I will as you can't easily buy R134a ....


Why would an advert *not* mention the can contents ?
Well, you're going to find out.

The gas is butane or propane or methane. They don't
want you to know they're putting a non-A1 gas in your
system!

Now are you going to put that in your car ?

What if the butane or propane or methane all leaks
out while you're parked in a garage, you enter the
room, use a light switch, there is the usual tiny
spark and *boom*, you're sent into outer space.

These are the concerns about buying "just any olde gas
in a can to fill my stinking car".

The worst case would be if the gas is propane (HC-290).

The unfortunate part, is refrigerators for the kitchen
now use some of these flammable refrigerants instead of
a safe one. There are some pictures around of the damage
to a kitchen when such refrigerators are used. Do you have
fire alarms ? Well, you should if you get a new fridge.
You should also find out what they're charged with, in
the spec sheet.

*******

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/13...ng-with-r-134a

Â*Â*Â* For many years, hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-134a was the alternate
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â* of choice to replace chlorofluorocarbon (CFC)-12 in many medium- and
Â*Â*Â* high-temperature stationary refrigeration, air conditioning, and
automotive
Â*Â*Â* air conditioning applications. The pressure/temperature
relationship and the
Â*Â*Â* latent heat values of R-134a are very similar to those of R-12.
Also, R-134a
Â*Â*Â* is a very safe refrigerant with an ASHRAE safety classification of
A1.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â*Â* This means it is not flammable and has very low toxicity levels.
Because
Â*Â*Â* HFC-134a has no chlorine in its molecule, it has a zero
ozone-depletion
Â*Â*Â* potential (ODP) and doesnt deplete the stratospheric ozone layer.

Â*Â*Â* R-134a is not a refrigerant blend. It is considered a pure
compound and has
Â*Â*Â* only one molecule. The R-134a molecule is ethane-based and
consists of
Â*Â*Â* carbon (C), fluorine (F), and hydrogen (H).

Â*Â*Â* EVAPORATOR TEMPERATURE APPLICATION

Â*Â*Â* As a medium- and high-temperature refrigerant, R-134a is not
usually used in
Â*Â*Â* low-temperature applications. R-134a loses some capacity when
compared to R-12
Â*Â*Â* in low-temperature applications. At lower temperatures, R-134a has
a slightly
Â*Â*Â* lower pressure than R-12, and at higher temperatures, R-134a has a
bit of a
Â*Â*Â* higher pressure when compared to R-12. Otherwise, both refrigerants
Â*Â*Â* pressure/temperature relationships closely compare.

Â*Â*Â* R-134a often operates with a very low pressure €” if not a slight
vacuum €” in
Â*Â*Â* low-temperature applications. At about minus 15°F evaporating
temperature,
Â*Â*Â* R-134a starts to fall into a vacuum. These lower pressures in
lower temperature
Â*Â*Â* applications cause higher compression ratios, higher discharge
temperatures, and
Â*Â*Â* low efficiencies €” not to mention added stress on a systems
compressor.

Â*Â*Â* LUBRICANT

Â*Â*Â* R-134a refrigeration systems use synthetic polyolester (POE)
lubricants
Â*Â*Â* while the automotive industry typically has used polyalkylene
glycol (PAG)
Â*Â*Â* lubricants. Polarity differences between commonly used organic
mineral oils
Â*Â*Â* and HFC refrigerants make R-134a insoluble, thus incompatible with
mineral oils
Â*Â*Â* that were used in many refrigeration and air conditioning
applications. R-134a
Â*Â*Â* was never intended to be a direct drop-in replacement for any
refrigerant, and
Â*Â*Â* retrofit guidelines had to be followed when retrofitting a system
to R-134a.

Â*Â*Â* GLOBAL WARMING LEGISLATION

Â*Â*Â* R-134a has a global-warming potential (GWP) of 1,430. This means
it traps 1,430
Â*Â*Â* times as much heat per kilogram as carbon dioxide does over a
100-year period.
Â*Â*Â* Because R-134a has such a high GWP, the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency
Â*Â*Â* (EPA) listed R-134a as an "unacceptable" refrigerant for certain
refrigeration
Â*Â*Â* and air conditioning applications under its Significant New
Alternatives Policy
Â*Â*Â* (SNAP) program. These applications include:

Â*Â*Â* New light-duty motor vehicle air conditioning, starting in 2021,
with a few narrow
Â*Â*Â* use limit exceptions. The exceptions are for newly manufactured
light-duty
Â*Â*Â* vehicles destined for use in countries that do not have
infrastructures in place
Â*Â*Â* for servicing with other acceptable refrigerants. The narrow use
limit will
Â*Â*Â* continue through model year 2025;

Â*Â*Â* Beginning in model year 2026, R-134a will be unacceptable for use
in all newly
Â*Â*Â* manufactured light-duty vehicles;

Â*Â*Â* New vending machines as of Jan. 1, 2019;

Â*Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor
capacity below
Â*Â*Â* 2,200 Btuh not containing a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2019;
and
Â*Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor
capacity equal to
Â*Â*Â* or greater than 2,200 Btuh and stand-alone medium-temperature
units containing
Â*Â*Â* a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2020.

Â*Â*Â* SOME R-134a REPLACEMENT OPTIONS

Â*Â*Â* There are a number of candidates to replace R-134a in the
applications for which
Â*Â*Â* it will be deemed unacceptable by the EPA.

Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yf €” Hydrofluoroolefin (HFO)-1234yf is a low-GWP
replacement for R-134a
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* intended for use in mobile air conditioning systems
in the
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* automotive industry. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 4.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yfs GWP is more than 300 times less than
that of R-134a.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Many European and some U.S. car manufacturers are
currently using
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yf for mobile air conditioning applications.
HFO-1234yf
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has one of the lowest switching cost for automakers
compared to
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* other alternatives. It is classified as a
low-toxicity but

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* slightly flammable ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant by ASHRAE with an A2L safety
classification. The
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* continued development of standards and codes for safe
use of mildly
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* flammable A2L refrigerants is very important.
HFO-1234yf is miscible
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in POE lubricants. The miscibility of HFOs with POE
lubricants is
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* comparable to that of R-134a. HFOs are not soluble in
mineral oil or
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* alkylbenzene lubricants.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze €” HFO-1234ze can be used in vending machines,
refrigerators, beverage
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* dispensers, air dryers, and carbon dioxide cascade
systems in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* commercial refrigeration. It has an ODP of zero and
a GWP of 6. Other
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* applications include both air- and water-cooled
chillers in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* supermarkets and commercial buildings. HFO-1234ze
offers excellent
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* energy efficiency, is cost-effective, and can be
used in existing
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* equipment design with minimal changes. HFO-1234ze
also offers
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* advantages over R-32, which has a medium GWP, an A2
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* safety rating, and high discharge temperatures. The
miscibility of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze with POE lubricants is comparable to that
of R-134a.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HC-290 (Propane) €” Hydrocarbon (HC)-290 has an A3 safety group
classification,
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* meaning it is highly
flammable.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Its molecule contains nothing but hydrogen and
carbon. It has
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* an ODP of zero and a GWP of 3. As long as the
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* charge doesnt exceed 5.3 ounces (150 grams),
it can be used
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in freezers, household refrigerators,
combination refrigerators
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* and freezers, room air conditioners, and
vending machines. As
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* with the A2L refrigerants, the continued
development of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* standards and codes for safe use of flammable
refrigerants
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* is very important.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HC-600a (Isobutane) €” Like HC-290, HC-600a has an A3 (highly
flammable)Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* safety group classification. Its molecule
contains hydrogen
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* and carbon. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 3. As long as
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* the refrigerant charge does not exceed 2
ounces (57 grams),
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* it can be used in vending machines and
retail food
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* refrigeration (stand-alone commercial
refrigerators and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* freezers). Again, the continued development
of standards and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* codes for the safe use of HCs is very
important.

Â*Â*Â*Â* R-513A €” R-513A is an HFO/HFC blend with an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 631. R-513A
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has a close performance match to R-134a for new and
retrofitted systems.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* It is the lowest GWP refrigerant in the A1 safety
classification toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â* === safe
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* replace R-134a in stationary systems.

Â*Â*Â*Â* R-450A €” R-450A is a near-azeotropic refrigerant blend containing
an HFO
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant designed to replace R-134a in commercial and
industrial
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerators as well as air conditioning and chillers.
It has a very
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* low temperature glide and can be used in direct
expansion or flooded
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* evaporator systems. It is compatible with POE lubricants.

Â*Â*Â*Â* Publication date: 6/5/2017

*******

I first learned of some of these alternatives, when reading articles
about three stage refrigeration systems used for computer overclocking.
Some of these cost around $5000 to construct by a professional, and
the operating temperature is around -110F. That's why there are three
stages, each stage removing a little more of the heat.

The guy building the thing (hobbyists can order one and cut a cheque
for $5000 to him), he said "I can charge or blend a gas for one of
the stages that is flammable, but then you could only keep this
machine in your garage. In other words, if the machine leaked, using
one of the flammable gases would fill the living area with a flammable
gas. At the time I read that, there was *zero* use of flammable gases
in most deployed equipment. It was considered as unethical as a
politician
telling you to drink bleach.

Today, it seems the little guy, the consumer, is the only sane person
left in the room :-/ And that can of ****-me-over gas is a prime example.

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Â*Â*Â* Paul
oh dear thanks for the heads up ......can I just use propane or butane
then...save some cash? ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

I trust Scotty...think I will get it done professional for me....

On 05/07/2020 15:14, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

I trust Scotty...think I will get it done professional for me....
thanks for everybody's help ....

On 05/07/2020 15:16, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:14, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

I trust Scotty...think I will get it done professional for me....
thanks for everybody's help ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm56tV5BbJk

interesting

On 05/07/2020 15:07:38, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 14:05, Paul wrote:

snip

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Â*Â*Â* Paul
do you think that is what caused the fire in Grenfel ? ...

That's an interesting assertion. Most recent refrigerants are flammable.

On 05/07/2020 15:18:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:16, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:14, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

I trust Scotty...think I will get it done professional for me....
thanks for everybody's help ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm56tV5BbJk

interesting

Most leaks are very slow. If you can get the vapour above 700C then you
might have an issue.

One advantage of R-1234YF is it's very similar to R-134a and to my
knowledge uses the same PAG oil.

On 05/07/2020 16:00, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:18:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:16, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:14, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

I trust Scotty...think I will get it done professional for me....
thanks for everybody's help ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm56tV5BbJk

interesting

Most leaks are very slow. If you can get the vapour above 700C then you
might have an issue.

One advantage of R-1234YF is it's very similar to R-134a and to my
knowledge uses the same PAG oil.
but it's inflammable...

Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:16, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:14, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

I trust Scotty...think I will get it done professional for me....
thanks for everybody's help ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm56tV5BbJk

interesting

One of the reasons CO2 is not viable, is building
the compressor and plumbing. "CO2 doesn't want to be
a refrigerator gas" :-) It has excellent pollution
characteristics (compared to R12). But it's a
nightmare for the person trying to design a fridge
with it.

R12 was beautiful stuff. The refrigeration works at
relatively low pressure. The units could function
for years. My central air with R12, it lasted for 40 years,
and in the 20 years I used it, it *never* needed to be
recharged.

This means, while the "badness rating" might be 9000,
it hardly ever leaked.

The newer ones, they run at higher pressure, a charge
doesn't stay in the unit, but, the "badness rating"
is lower. The only part getting dinged, is your wallet.
(To recharge the central air of the current system,
cost me $1000 including a new "A" coil to replace the
brand new one in a four year old system.)

The recovery equipment, uses a zeolite cannister. The
vacuum pump to evacuate the old material, that part
probably doesn't change from one refrigerant to another.
Perhaps a separate machine could be used, to avoid
contamination from one system design to another. I
don't really see why that's necessary though, except
for people who aren't HVAC trained and "just want to
run a machine".

You would need a different zeolite for R1234 versus R134a.
The neat thing about the zeolite, is the gas bonds to it
very well, so by the time it's "pulled" by the vacuum pump,
the zeolite has absorbed all of it. You hardly have to
screw the cap on the bottle. Back at the factory, the zeolite
is "cooked" to release the gas back into the factory
vacuum tree. The purpose of zeolite, is so whatever
refrigerant is being used, it *doesn't* go into the
atmosphere.

But based on the leakage rate, and the number of times
these systems need to be refilled, using zeolite is
pretty silly. It was different in the R12 era, because
when they would recover the charge, the machine was
probably still full and you could recover it without
any pollution at all. Whereas today, the modern higher
pressure refrigerants, they're just continually leaking
through tiny pinholes in the copper. The pinholes
come from stuff like exposure to formic acid.

*******

When it comes to flammable gases, each gas when it
explodes, has a different level of "shock wave". I
tried to Google, but can't find a table right now
of typical values. Some materials you can take inside
a house or garage, can "launch you through a window"
when they go off. For example, some idiots who took
a car petrol tank into the living room, they flew
fifty feet through the livingroom window... and survived.
There's less damage in buildings, if there are windows
to release the pressure. There have been a few incidents
here though, where houses were reduced to splinters by
an explosion inside. And shock damage to all the adjacent
houses (in some cases those are a write-off too).

This is one of the reasons, the "size of charge" in the
table, the number of grams or ounces, matters. They're
attempting to prevent trouble, by reducing the fuel load.
Maybe one cannister, if injected into the car system, wouldn't
be a deadly disaster if it leaked. But if you did 100%
of the charge with the flammable gas, there'd be more
potential for trouble (you vacuumed down the car system
and did a 100% fill with something nasty).

When you blend gases like that, one gas may preferentially
liquify compared to the other. And this changes the
temperature behavior of the system. A professional
would know more about the outcome than I would, but
there's going to be some sort of phase diagram to
predict the outcome.

Paul

On 05/07/2020 15:09, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI


I've seen some of his other videos. It may be wise to take ANYTHING he
shouts with a large pince of salt. He may be correct in this case but.....


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 05/07/2020 16:22:34, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 16:00, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:18:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:16, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:14, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI

I trust Scotty...think I will get it done professional for me....
thanks for everybody's help ....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wm56tV5BbJk

interesting

Most leaks are very slow. If you can get the vapour above 700C then
you might have an issue.

One advantage of R-1234YF is it's very similar to R-134a and to my
knowledge uses the same PAG oil.
but it's inflammable...

With difficulty.

On 05/07/2020 15:57:27, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:07:38, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 14:05, Paul wrote:

snip

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Â*Â*Â* Paul
do you think that is what caused the fire in Grenfel ? ...

That's an interesting assertion. Most recent refrigerants are flammable.

https://www.hfmmagazine.com/articles...hrae-standards

"The most notable fire involving a refrigerator with flammable
refrigerant was in London at the Grenfell Tower, which killed 72
occupants. This fire apparently originated with a refrigerator; however,
subsequent reporting on Nov. 27, 2018, by BBC News quotes Dr. J Duncan
Glover, "The overheating connector in my opinion was the first event
that started burning the insulation on the wires that led to the short
circuit."

So perhaps not a major contributory cause.

On 05/07/2020 17:06:24, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:09, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI


I've seen some of his other videos. It may be wise to take ANYTHING he
shouts with a large pince of salt. He may be correct in this case but.....

I suspect most of comment is justified. It was a stitch-up between
interested parties to use R-1234YF to make loadsamoney. It's why most
have moved to hydrocarbons rather than an alternative protected by patent.

When the patent runs out I'm sure there'll be some reason to use
something more exotic.

Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

do you think that is what caused the fire in Grenfel ? ...

You'd have to ask the fire department that.

The pictures I've seen so far of fridges charged with
a flammable gas, the damage is usually limited to the kitchen.
I don't know if any houses have burned down because of it.

If you do choose to add a flammable gas to the car system,
and later you decide to take it for an AC service, don't
forget to tell the guy what you added. The vacuum pump,
normally nothing would come out of the vacuum pump
exhaust pipe (no R134A) because that gas is captured
in the zeolite cylinder. But the propane would not be
captured by the zeolite, and so the propane comes out
the vacuum pump exhaust tube at a slow rate. And you would
not want the vacuum pump exhaust tube to "vent" into the
service bay. It should vent outdoors. And preferably not
in an area where the mechanics have their smoke break.

Paul

On 05/07/2020 17:25, Paul wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

do you think that is what caused the fire in Grenfel ? ...

You'd have to ask the fire department that.

The pictures I've seen so far of fridges charged with
a flammable gas, the damage is usually limited to the kitchen.
I don't know if any houses have burned down because of it.

If you do choose to add a flammable gas to the car system,
and later you decide to take it for an AC service, don't
forget to tell the guy what you added. The vacuum pump,
normally nothing would come out of the vacuum pump
exhaust pipe (no R134A) because that gas is captured
in the zeolite cylinder. But the propane would not be
captured by the zeolite, and so the propane comes out
the vacuum pump exhaust tube at a slow rate. And you would
not want the vacuum pump exhaust tube to "vent" into the
service bay. It should vent outdoors. And preferably not
in an area where the mechanics have their smoke break.

Â*Â* Paul
gone off the idea

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On 05/07/2020 17:11, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:57:27, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:07:38, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 14:05, Paul wrote:

snip

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Â*Â*Â* Paul
do you think that is what caused the fire in Grenfel ? ...

That's an interesting assertion. Most recent refrigerants are flammable.

https://www.hfmmagazine.com/articles...hrae-standards


"The most notable fire involving a refrigerator with flammable
refrigerant was in London at the Grenfell Tower, which killed 72
occupants. This fire apparently originated with a refrigerator; however,
subsequent reporting on Nov. 27, 2018, by BBC News quotes Dr. J Duncan
Glover, "The overheating connector in my opinion was the first event
that started burning the insulation on the wires that led to the short
circuit."

So perhaps not a major contributory cause.
oh right

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On 05/07/2020 17:23, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 17:06:24, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:09, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI


I've seen some of his other videos. It may be wise to take ANYTHING he
shouts with a large pince of salt. He may be correct in this case
but.....

I suspect most of comment is justified. It was a stitch-up between
interested parties to use R-1234YF to make loadsamoney. It's why most
have moved to hydrocarbons rather than an alternative protected by patent.

When the patent runs out I'm sure there'll be some reason to use
something more exotic.
scotty is never wrong

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On 05/07/2020 17:06, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 15:09, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IBFLMYZEzI


I've seen some of his other videos. It may be wise to take ANYTHING he
shouts with a large pince of salt. He may be correct in this case but.....


nope can't fault him.....

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On 05/07/2020 09:45, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649



anybody used one of these or similar ?...


It possibly will not help if your A/C does not work at all as that may
indicate other problems such as a leak maybe because seals have dried
out during a lengthy period of not using the AC.

For me, a few years back I went down this route on an old car and didn't
work as expected on a A/C system that hadn't been maintained for years.
Depending where the access points to A/C are it can be a bit of a PITA.
On my previous car it was wheel off, wheel arch liner removal and
limited access afterwards. Possibly a lot more access if the car was on
a lift but not when working on a driveway

My local car A/C recon service charged £60 (incl VAT) to do it properly.
They had the equipment to automatically evacuate the old gas, vacuum dry
the system as well as recharging with gas, oil and to add (leak) trace
dye. They said that they added the dye to every recharge cover any short
term returns where the dye highlights any problems that may not have
been found during the recharge.

It's the intermediate processes of getting any water out and drying the
system that is as important as the re-gassing. I was lucky on my
previous car that no leak was detected but the amount of gas in the
system was very low. I got a print-out of gas out, gas in and other
various parameters measured during the process.

+1, my car mechanic has the kit and is *very* fussy about doing it properly.

On 05/07/2020 13:47, alan_m wrote:
On 05/07/2020 12:54, Andrew wrote:



Why do you need aircon in Glasgow ? :-)


You need A/C to dry the air before super-heating it to get a comfortable
temperature in Scotchland.

that's it ....

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On 6/7/20 12:05 am, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 14:05, Paul wrote:
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 05/07/2020 12:11, Fredxx wrote:
On 05/07/2020 08:37:53, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CAR-Airco...53.m1438.l2649

anybody used one of these or similar ?...


The listing says, "the gas is not R134a but a direct substitute
natural gas".

Without knowing what this "natural gas" is I won't be buying any.

I will as you can't easily buy R134a ....


Why would an advert *not* mention the can contents ?
Well, you're going to find out.

The gas is butane or propane or methane. They don't
want you to know they're putting a non-A1 gas in your
system!

Now are you going to put that in your car ?

What if the butane or propane or methane all leaks
out while you're parked in a garage, you enter the
room, use a light switch, there is the usual tiny
spark and *boom*, you're sent into outer space.

These are the concerns about buying "just any olde gas
in a can to fill my stinking car".

The worst case would be if the gas is propane (HC-290).

The unfortunate part, is refrigerators for the kitchen
now use some of these flammable refrigerants instead of
a safe one. There are some pictures around of the damage
to a kitchen when such refrigerators are used. Do you have
fire alarms ? Well, you should if you get a new fridge.
You should also find out what they're charged with, in
the spec sheet.

*******

https://www.achrnews.com/articles/13...ng-with-r-134a

Â*Â*Â* For many years, hydrofluorocarbon (HFC)-134a was the alternate
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â* of choice to replace chlorofluorocarbon (CFC)-12 in many medium- and
Â*Â*Â* high-temperature stationary refrigeration, air conditioning, and
automotive
Â*Â*Â* air conditioning applications. The pressure/temperature
relationship and the
Â*Â*Â* latent heat values of R-134a are very similar to those of R-12.
Also, R-134a
Â*Â*Â* is a very safe refrigerant with an ASHRAE safety classification of
A1.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â*Â* This means it is not flammable and has very low toxicity levels.
Because
Â*Â*Â* HFC-134a has no chlorine in its molecule, it has a zero
ozone-depletion
Â*Â*Â* potential (ODP) and doesnt deplete the stratospheric ozone layer.

Â*Â*Â* R-134a is not a refrigerant blend. It is considered a pure
compound and has
Â*Â*Â* only one molecule. The R-134a molecule is ethane-based and
consists of
Â*Â*Â* carbon (C), fluorine (F), and hydrogen (H).

Â*Â*Â* EVAPORATOR TEMPERATURE APPLICATION

Â*Â*Â* As a medium- and high-temperature refrigerant, R-134a is not
usually used in
Â*Â*Â* low-temperature applications. R-134a loses some capacity when
compared to R-12
Â*Â*Â* in low-temperature applications. At lower temperatures, R-134a has
a slightly
Â*Â*Â* lower pressure than R-12, and at higher temperatures, R-134a has a
bit of a
Â*Â*Â* higher pressure when compared to R-12. Otherwise, both refrigerants
Â*Â*Â* pressure/temperature relationships closely compare.

Â*Â*Â* R-134a often operates with a very low pressure €” if not a slight
vacuum €” in
Â*Â*Â* low-temperature applications. At about minus 15°F evaporating
temperature,
Â*Â*Â* R-134a starts to fall into a vacuum. These lower pressures in
lower temperature
Â*Â*Â* applications cause higher compression ratios, higher discharge
temperatures, and
Â*Â*Â* low efficiencies €” not to mention added stress on a systems
compressor.

Â*Â*Â* LUBRICANT

Â*Â*Â* R-134a refrigeration systems use synthetic polyolester (POE)
lubricants
Â*Â*Â* while the automotive industry typically has used polyalkylene
glycol (PAG)
Â*Â*Â* lubricants. Polarity differences between commonly used organic
mineral oils
Â*Â*Â* and HFC refrigerants make R-134a insoluble, thus incompatible with
mineral oils
Â*Â*Â* that were used in many refrigeration and air conditioning
applications. R-134a
Â*Â*Â* was never intended to be a direct drop-in replacement for any
refrigerant, and
Â*Â*Â* retrofit guidelines had to be followed when retrofitting a system
to R-134a.

Â*Â*Â* GLOBAL WARMING LEGISLATION

Â*Â*Â* R-134a has a global-warming potential (GWP) of 1,430. This means
it traps 1,430
Â*Â*Â* times as much heat per kilogram as carbon dioxide does over a
100-year period.
Â*Â*Â* Because R-134a has such a high GWP, the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency
Â*Â*Â* (EPA) listed R-134a as an "unacceptable" refrigerant for certain
refrigeration
Â*Â*Â* and air conditioning applications under its Significant New
Alternatives Policy
Â*Â*Â* (SNAP) program. These applications include:

Â*Â*Â* New light-duty motor vehicle air conditioning, starting in 2021,
with a few narrow
Â*Â*Â* use limit exceptions. The exceptions are for newly manufactured
light-duty
Â*Â*Â* vehicles destined for use in countries that do not have
infrastructures in place
Â*Â*Â* for servicing with other acceptable refrigerants. The narrow use
limit will
Â*Â*Â* continue through model year 2025;

Â*Â*Â* Beginning in model year 2026, R-134a will be unacceptable for use
in all newly
Â*Â*Â* manufactured light-duty vehicles;

Â*Â*Â* New vending machines as of Jan. 1, 2019;

Â*Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor
capacity below
Â*Â*Â* 2,200 Btuh not containing a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2019;
and
Â*Â*Â* New stand-alone, medium-temperature units with a compressor
capacity equal to
Â*Â*Â* or greater than 2,200 Btuh and stand-alone medium-temperature
units containing
Â*Â*Â* a flooded evaporator as of Jan. 1, 2020.

Â*Â*Â* SOME R-134a REPLACEMENT OPTIONS

Â*Â*Â* There are a number of candidates to replace R-134a in the
applications for which
Â*Â*Â* it will be deemed unacceptable by the EPA.

Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yf €” Hydrofluoroolefin (HFO)-1234yf is a low-GWP
replacement for R-134a
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* intended for use in mobile air conditioning systems
in the
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* automotive industry. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 4.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yfs GWP is more than 300 times less than
that of R-134a.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Many European and some U.S. car manufacturers are
currently using
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234yf for mobile air conditioning applications.
HFO-1234yf
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has one of the lowest switching cost for automakers
compared to
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* other alternatives. It is classified as a
low-toxicity but

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* slightly flammable ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant by ASHRAE with an A2L safety
classification. The
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* continued development of standards and codes for safe
use of mildly
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* flammable A2L refrigerants is very important.
HFO-1234yf is miscible
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in POE lubricants. The miscibility of HFOs with POE
lubricants is
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* comparable to that of R-134a. HFOs are not soluble in
mineral oil or
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* alkylbenzene lubricants.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze €” HFO-1234ze can be used in vending machines,
refrigerators, beverage
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* dispensers, air dryers, and carbon dioxide cascade
systems in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* commercial refrigeration. It has an ODP of zero and
a GWP of 6. Other
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* applications include both air- and water-cooled
chillers in
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* supermarkets and commercial buildings. HFO-1234ze
offers excellent
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* energy efficiency, is cost-effective, and can be
used in existing
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* equipment design with minimal changes. HFO-1234ze
also offers
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* advantages over R-32, which has a medium GWP, an A2
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* safety rating, and high discharge temperatures. The
miscibility of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* HFO-1234ze with POE lubricants is comparable to that
of R-134a.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HC-290 (Propane) €” Hydrocarbon (HC)-290 has an A3 safety group
classification,
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* meaning it is highly
flammable.Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===

Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Its molecule contains nothing but hydrogen and
carbon. It has
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* an ODP of zero and a GWP of 3. As long as the
refrigerant
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* charge doesnt exceed 5.3 ounces (150 grams),
it can be used
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* in freezers, household refrigerators,
combination refrigerators
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* and freezers, room air conditioners, and
vending machines. As
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* with the A2L refrigerants, the continued
development of
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* standards and codes for safe use of flammable
refrigerants
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* is very important.

Â*Â*Â*Â* HC-600a (Isobutane) €” Like HC-290, HC-600a has an A3 (highly
flammable)Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* ===
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* safety group classification. Its molecule
contains hydrogen
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* and carbon. It has an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 3. As long as
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* the refrigerant charge does not exceed 2
ounces (57 grams),
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* it can be used in vending machines and
retail food
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* refrigeration (stand-alone commercial
refrigerators and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* freezers). Again, the continued development
of standards and
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* Â* codes for the safe use of HCs is very
important.

Â*Â*Â*Â* R-513A €” R-513A is an HFO/HFC blend with an ODP of zero and a GWP
of 631. R-513A
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* has a close performance match to R-134a for new and
retrofitted systems.
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* It is the lowest GWP refrigerant in the A1 safety
classification toÂ*Â*Â*Â*Â* === safe
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* replace R-134a in stationary systems.

Â*Â*Â*Â* R-450A €” R-450A is a near-azeotropic refrigerant blend containing
an HFO
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerant designed to replace R-134a in commercial and
industrial
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* refrigerators as well as air conditioning and chillers.
It has a very
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* low temperature glide and can be used in direct
expansion or flooded
Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â*Â* evaporator systems. It is compatible with POE lubricants.

Â*Â*Â*Â* Publication date: 6/5/2017

*******

I first learned of some of these alternatives, when reading articles
about three stage refrigeration systems used for computer overclocking.
Some of these cost around $5000 to construct by a professional, and
the operating temperature is around -110F. That's why there are three
stages, each stage removing a little more of the heat.

The guy building the thing (hobbyists can order one and cut a cheque
for $5000 to him), he said "I can charge or blend a gas for one of
the stages that is flammable, but then you could only keep this
machine in your garage. In other words, if the machine leaked, using
one of the flammable gases would fill the living area with a flammable
gas. At the time I read that, there was *zero* use of flammable gases
in most deployed equipment. It was considered as unethical as a
politician
telling you to drink bleach.

Today, it seems the little guy, the consumer, is the only sane person
left in the room :-/ And that can of ****-me-over gas is a prime example.

Why would you *not* list the gas ? That's the information a
professional *needs* to use a gas for **** sake. Nobody services
these things on a "the gas I'm giving you is our little secret"
basis. If the wrong gas is used, and it buggers the lubricant, you
could be replacing the compressor and plumbing next.

Â*Â*Â* Paul
oh dear thanks for th aThe gas will be R290 which is LPG or a mixture of LPG and butane (
R600a) which will work as a replacement for R 134a.
In Australia we are not supposed to be able to buy R134a unless licensed
and can be fined large amounts if we let it loose if we are licensed.but
we can buy cans of air duster some of which is really R134a and we can
blow it everywhere