On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 19:48:14 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile asshole's latest troll****

What does it take to make you shut your stupid senile gob, you 85-year-old
senile pest? A good dose of Nembutal? BG

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:

In article ,
williamwright wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the UK, it is
1 in 66.


That sounds interesting. What programme?

It was an aside from a presenter on LBC.

--
*Ah, I see the f**k-up fairy has visited us again

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
On 24/02/2020 19:38, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


And yet we ended up with Boris.

We are very lucky - we could have ended up with Jeremy.

I'd rather we weren't in the situation of having to vote for the least
worst choice. But that's modern politics for you.

--
*Haunted French pancakes give me the crepes.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Cheap unhygenic East European farms that do not (have to) comply with EU
health and humane treatement regulations.

There are now exceptions for some EU countries to EU standards, then?

--
*Geeks shall inherit the earth *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the UK, it is
1 in 66.

Not the figures I've seen/ Care to give a citation - and for Germany
also.

OK, then. Give the 'true' figures.

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the UK,
it is 1 in 66.

Yet we want to import cheap food from the US. Always knew Brexiteers
had a death wish.


It would of course help to know what station and at roughly what time so
we could check for ourselves exactly what was said and - crucially - by
whom.

In the meantime that seems a repeat of the claim last year on which

https://fullfact.org/health/food-poisoning-US-UK/

concluded

"These estimates are both correct based on government figures, but
they�re not comparable due to differences in methodology and how the
data was collected."

For every single 'fact' anywhere, there will be an 'expert' who disagrees
with it.

That's what we tried to tell you repeatedly since 2016.

I'm quite happy to accept a margin of error with any statistics.

But it would have to bee quite some error in this case.

--
*Honk if you love peace and quiet*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
bert wrote:
By all means point out the way something is measured may effect the true
figures, especially where that also allows those who want to to ignore a
trend. But to have credence, you'd also have to say fully what the
differences are in how the figures are collected.

Well come on then. That's what we are waiting for. You started this
thread.

The figures in both cases come from government statistics. Up to you to
show where they are flawed.

--
*Home cooking. Where many a man thinks his wife is.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Robin wrote:
On 24/02/2020 19:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
For every single 'fact' anywhere, there will be an 'expert' who disagrees
with it.


But if you told us where and when you heard it we could judge for
ourselves the authority you chose to report. As it stands we don't
know if it was any more than - say - a known hard activist seeking to
recycle old "fake news" to damage HMG.

Crikey. Any more conspiracy theories you'd like to air while you're at
it?

I fail to see a conspiracy theory in my post given the evidence in this
thread of people opposed to the current government making false
comparisons of UK and US food poisoning stats. It also seems to me a
simple fact that you are unwilling to say where and when you heard the
figures on the radio today - or, which would be sadder, are unable to do
so.

Have you actually been reading this thread? Others have said where the
statistics come from. So just who or what reported it on the radio
therefore totally irrelevant. But I'll give you a clue. I wasn't listening
to the BBC. ;-)

But carry on with your conspiracy hopes.

--
*Horn broken. - Watch for finger.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
After serious thinking Dave Plowman (News) wrote :
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the UK, it is
1 in 66.

You don't suppose the difference might be due to parts of the US being
much hotter than the UK, plus some places being much more remote than
the UK, hence more opportunities for food to spoil?

No. Not with such vastly different figures.

But then if the distance and time are important as regards food safety,
all the more reason not to import it from the other side of the world?

--
*Generally speaking, you aren't learning much if your lips are moving.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
"These estimates are both correct based on government figures, but
they�re not comparable due to differences in methodology and how the
data was collected."

For every single 'fact' anywhere, there will be an 'expert' who disagrees
with it.

That's what we tried to tell you repeatedly since 2016.

The BBC have their own select band of preferred experts with an obvious
left wing bias that they regularly wheel out.

Ah - right. The likes of you assume I heard it on a BBC radio broadcast?

--
*Forget the Joneses, I keep us up with the Simpsons.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25/02/2020 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2020 10:45, Andrew wrote:
On 24/02/2020 16:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:52, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the
UK, it is
1 in 66.

Yet we want to import cheap food from the US. Always knew
Brexiteers had a
death wish.


Could we not just choose to buy English food/chicken rather than US.

I find it more unbelievable that Plow**** is still banging on about
something he knows he knows nothing about.

COVID-19 is a far bigger threat than Brexit.

Only to a small percentage of the over-populated world

With luck being out of Schengen and out of the EU may let us ride
that one out...



Only if we shut down eurostar and the UK aviation industry.

That might happen.

Easyjets share price dropped 17% yesterday alone.

I am sobbing in my cornflakes. Not.



You must have a guaranteed public service pension

On 25/02/2020 10:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 22:48, Steve Walker wrote:

I've never got this argument.

Yep, I fully understand that EU bureaucrats are corrupt,
incompetents lining their own pockets. The thing is that Westminster
bureaucrats are the same. Local councils too, for that matter.

But the citizens of the UK can vote out councillors or a government
that they feel is itself incompetent or corrupt or who fail to
adequately direct and control bureaucrats who are like that. Our
votes had little effect on the EU.


I'm a citizen of London, England, The UK, and formerly the EU. To be
honest I have felt more at home in New York or Amsterdam than I have
in rural villages in the UK.

yep. urban people are totally unable to function in or comprehend life
outside of a completely man made environment


My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in
safe seats. It is inevitable that If I am a part of any large group my
say will count for little. In the UK we are largely controlled by
bureaucrats and the super rich.

I too have lived in safe seats. The only parties I have voted for in te
last 20 years have been the ones that Nigel Farage was in. He never
gained a Westminster seat and yet my vote was not wasted. I had it from
a Tory activist that it was in fact being 'scared of UKIP' that brought
the referendum at all.

I believe in personal freedom, I believe local communities should be
given freedom, devolution of power, but we need some wider rules and
controls, otherwise we often end up in a race to the bottom.

Well, so you are firmly in favour of Brexit then?

No I was a remainer, but given we are where we are I support Boris.

I think we have to accept no-deal followed by a much tighter alignment
with the USA. I never saw any point in a soft Brexit.

It is risky but in the long run being more dynamic may allow us to out
perform an EU which has proved ineffective at dealing with its problems.

It is possible the EU will offer us a deal, but I think from now on it
is pragmatic to think of it as a cold war type relationship.


I don't see why these wider controls should stop at Westminster.

So I really can't understand the distinction you are trying to draw.

And I can't understand your distinction either. It seems obvious to me
that nothing is perfect and ideological solutions are worst of all: But
then I don't see politics as an exercise in morality, but as an
engineer, in terms of functional effectiveness in bring health and
happiness to the people that comprise nations.
That implies we need structures and organisations appropriate to the
levels at which they deployed: what we don't need is micro management
from Brussels.

But there are advantages to large free trade areas.

If we have large free trade areas we need common rules and oversight. We
also almost certainly need additional mechanisms for balancing wealth
distribution, between areas. We have all this in the UK. Without common
rules we need tariffs, to gives us control over the consequences of
foreign regulatory environments.

The problem is that the UK isn't big enough to offer some of the
economies of scale offered by the EU.


Still less do we need political decisions taken by
teenage Swedes or a bunch of activists digging up Trinity College.
Nothing wrong with *an* EU. Everything wrong with the *current* EU.
Functionally pointless organisation.

It might be bad but there is a lot of point to it.

Likewise city dwellers, who, as you have admitted, don't have a clue
about rural matters, where all their food, energy, water and wealth
comes from and where all their **** and waste rubbishÂ* goes to, should
not seek to impose their faux morality on people who underpin their
existence.

Gay cockerels end up in pies, for instance, not because they are morally
abhorrent, but because they are bloody useless for anything else.


I'm not eating gay cockerels! Not unless they are washed in chlorine first.

On Monday, 24 February 2020 18:06:56 UTC, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Monday, 24 February 2020 14:03:41 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the UK,
it is 1 in 66.

Yet we want to import cheap food from the US. Always knew Brexiteers
had a death wish.


Could we not just choose to buy English food/chicken rather than US.

You could, although many will just go for what the supermarket has on the
shelf at the best price - assuming they even get the choice. As with so
much else, many require protection from themselves. But do realise that
won't go down well with many on this group where making a fast buck is all
that matters.

One of the issues is that it is unlikely we would all have the choice. That requires adequate labelling and describing. Not just in supermarkets but in restaurants and takeaways and everywhere else.

Unless they are using it as a selling point, few outlets even tell what country their chicken comes from.

So buy from those outlets and not teh others, simple isn't it ?
It's only when those outlets lie or make mistakes that a problem might arise.
It's like ordering from a dodgy seller on ebay or anywhere you pay your money and take your chances.

On Monday, 24 February 2020 19:38:37 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
For every single 'fact' anywhere, there will be an 'expert' who disagrees
with it.


But if you told us where and when you heard it we could judge for
ourselves the authority you chose to report. As it stands we don't know
if it was any more than - say - a known hard activist seeking to recycle
old "fake news" to damage HMG.

Crikey. Any more conspiracy theories you'd like to air while you're at it?

I'm still undecided about PETA.

And I mean the animal rights group not the other.

On 24/02/2020 22:52, #Paul wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
I lived 12 years in the US, yet, oddly, didn't get food poisoning once.

"CDC estimates 48 million people get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized,
and 3,000 die from foodborne diseases each year in the United States. "

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/index.html



#Paul

3000 people die in the UK alone with skin cancer from exposure to the
sun. The biggest death count from radiation in the world.

"The Food Standards Agency's current best estimate suggests that there
are around one million cases of foodborne illness in the UK each year,
resulting in 20,000 hospital admissions and contributing to around 500
deaths."

So in fact pro rata a similar amount die from food poisoning in the USA
with five times the population, than in the UK. Although more possibly
get sick.

However no one knows how a given person actually catches a stomach bug.
Could be not washing your hands after using a public toilet.
Some time ago I had a GF. she got eaten alive by mosquitoes in Mexico, I
didn't, I ended up having to stop the car and crap in a ditch, she
didnt. IN Africa she got the squits and I didn't.

You are FAR more likely to get a bug in a hotter climate. The USA has a
lot of hot climate.



--
There is nothing a fleet of dispatchable nuclear power plants cannot do
that cannot be done worse and more expensively and with higher carbon
emissions and more adverse environmental impact by adding intermittent
renewable energy.

On 25/02/2020 10:53, Pancho wrote:
On 25/02/2020 10:25, alan_m wrote:
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in
safe seats.

No such thing as a safe seat as the last general election and many
council elections have shown. If a UK Government (or main opposition)
or council make a complete mess of their policies things WILL change.


erm yes, the seats I have lived in have always returned the same party
throughout my lifetime. Some seats always Conservative, some always
Labour. Seems pretty safe to me.


In the case of the EU the UK voters could replace very single MEP and
nothing would change as a result!


And in the Last UK GE London voted approximately twice as many Labour
MPs as Conservative and yet we have a conservative Government.

Should London leave the UK?

If only. Then it would have to survive without being subsidised by the
rural parts of Britain.


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

In article ,
#Paul wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
I lived 12 years in the US, yet, oddly, didn't get food poisoning once.

"CDC estimates 48 million people get sick, 128,000 are hospitalized,
and 3,000 die from foodborne diseases each year in the United States. "

Source: https://www.cdc.gov/foodborneburden/index.html


But that will be simply another agency whose express purpose is to
discredit the UK government. If you believe many on here.

And the 'fact check' charity whose largest provider of funds is Google.
And we all know just how important facts are to them. After money, of
course.

--
*Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are (usually) unnecessary *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
alan_m wrote:
No such thing as a safe seat as the last general election and many
council elections have shown. If a UK Government (or main opposition) or
council make a complete mess of their policies things WILL change.

Given so many seats in traditional Labour constituencies (and relatively
poor ones too) swung over to Tory, it must be assumed the voters there
were very happy with Tory policies over the last 10 years or so? And want
more of the same cuts etc to their services?

--
*Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 13:33:09 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 25/02/2020 10:53, Pancho wrote:
On 25/02/2020 10:25, alan_m wrote:
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in
safe seats.

No such thing as a safe seat as the last general election and many
council elections have shown. If a UK Government (or main opposition)
or council make a complete mess of their policies things WILL change.


erm yes, the seats I have lived in have always returned the same party
throughout my lifetime. Some seats always Conservative, some always
Labour. Seems pretty safe to me.


In the case of the EU the UK voters could replace very single MEP and
nothing would change as a result!


And in the Last UK GE London voted approximately twice as many Labour
MPs as Conservative and yet we have a conservative Government.

Should London leave the UK?

If only. Then it would have to survive without being subsidised by the
rural parts of Britain.

Also a wall would perhaps have to be built round it, with customs & excise
ports in it. After all, London would no longer be part of Britain, would
it.


--
Debian 10.2 "Buster"

On 25/02/2020 11:22, Andrew wrote:
On 25/02/2020 10:51, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2020 10:45, Andrew wrote:
On 24/02/2020 16:36, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:52, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the
UK, it is
1 in 66.

Yet we want to import cheap food from the US. Always knew
Brexiteers had a
death wish.


Could we not just choose to buy English food/chicken rather than US.

I find it more unbelievable that Plow**** is still banging on about
something he knows he knows nothing about.

COVID-19 is a far bigger threat than Brexit.

Only to a small percentage of the over-populated world

With luck being out of Schengen and out of the EU may let us ride
that one out...



Only if we shut down eurostar and the UK aviation industry.

That might happen.

Easyjets share price dropped 17% yesterday alone.

I am sobbing in my cornflakes. Not.



You must have a guaranteed public service pension

I have no pension at all

Just savings


--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

On 25/02/2020 13:58, Martyn Barclay wrote:


Also a wall would perhaps have to be built round it, with customs & excise
ports in it. After all, London would no longer be part of Britain, would
it.


A wall! Good idea, it would keep the riff raff out.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Should London leave the UK?

If only. Then it would have to survive without being subsidised by the
rural parts of Britain.

Turnip's been reading his Ladybird books again. Might get his nurse to
explain them, though.

--
*You're never too old to learn something stupid.
Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25/02/2020 11:28, Pancho wrote:
On 25/02/2020 10:42, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 22:48, Steve Walker wrote:

I've never got this argument.

Yep, I fully understand that EU bureaucrats are corrupt,
incompetents lining their own pockets. The thing is that
Westminster bureaucrats are the same. Local councils too, for that
matter.

But the citizens of the UK can vote out councillors or a government
that they feel is itself incompetent or corrupt or who fail to
adequately direct and control bureaucrats who are like that. Our
votes had little effect on the EU.


I'm a citizen of London, England, The UK, and formerly the EU. To be
honest I have felt more at home in New York or Amsterdam than I have
in rural villages in the UK.

yep. urban people are totally unable to function in or comprehend life
outside of a completely man made environment


My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in
safe seats. It is inevitable that If I am a part of any large group
my say will count for little. In the UK we are largely controlled by
bureaucrats and the super rich.

I too have lived in safe seats. The only parties I have voted for in
te last 20 years have been the ones that Nigel Farage was in. He never
gained a Westminster seat and yet my vote was not wasted. I had it
from a Tory activist that it was in fact being 'scared of UKIP' that
brought the referendum at all.

I believe in personal freedom, I believe local communities should be
given freedom, devolution of power, but we need some wider rules and
controls, otherwise we often end up in a race to the bottom.

Well, so you are firmly in favour of Brexit then?

No I was a remainer, but given we are where we are I support Boris.

I think we have to accept no-deal followed by a much tighter alignment
with the USA. I never saw any point in a soft Brexit.

It is risky but in the long run being more dynamic may allow us to out
perform an EU which has proved ineffective at dealing with its problems.

It is possible the EU will offer us a deal, but I think from now on it
is pragmatic to think of it as a cold war type relationship.


I don't see why these wider controls should stop at Westminster.

So I really can't understand the distinction you are trying to draw.

And I can't understand your distinction either. It seems obvious to me
that nothing is perfect and ideological solutions are worst of all:
But then I don't see politics as an exercise in morality, but as an
engineer, in terms of functional effectiveness in bring health and
happiness to the people that comprise nations.
That implies we need structures and organisations appropriate to the
levels at which they deployed: what we don't need is micro management
from Brussels.

But there are advantages to large free trade areas.
Th4 EU is not a large free trade area., It is a large political entity
that coincidentally has to have free trade within it because it
practices isolationist policies with respect to the free world, and
trade is the only incentive it found to make anyone want to join it,
beyond bribing and blackmailing national politicians of course

If we have large free trade areas we need common rules and oversight.

No we dont.

We
also almost certainly need additional mechanisms for balancing wealth
distribution, between areas. We have all this in the UK. Without common
rules we need tariffs, to gives us control over the consequences of
foreign regulatory environments.

No we don't

The problem is that the UK isn't big enough to offer some of the
economies of scale offered by the EU.

There are no economies of scale offered by the EU.


Still less do we need political decisions taken by teenage Swedes or a
bunch of activists digging up Trinity College.
Nothing wrong with *an* EU. Everything wrong with the *current* EU.
Functionally pointless organisation.

It might be bad but there is a lot of point to it.

It is purely profit and power motivated bull**** that she has been
indoctrinated with.

Likewise city dwellers, who, as you have admitted, don't have a clue
about rural matters, where all their food, energy, water and wealth
comes from and where all their **** and waste rubbishÂ* goes to, should
not seek to impose their faux morality on people who underpin their
existence.

Gay cockerels end up in pies, for instance, not because they are
morally abhorrent, but because they are bloody useless for anything else.


I'm not eating gay cockerels! Not unless they are washed in chlorine first.

How would you know?


--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

On 25/02/2020 13:58, Martyn Barclay wrote:
On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 13:33:09 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 25/02/2020 10:53, Pancho wrote:
On 25/02/2020 10:25, alan_m wrote:
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in
safe seats.

No such thing as a safe seat as the last general election and many
council elections have shown. If a UK Government (or main opposition)
or council make a complete mess of their policies things WILL change.


erm yes, the seats I have lived in have always returned the same party
throughout my lifetime. Some seats always Conservative, some always
Labour. Seems pretty safe to me.


In the case of the EU the UK voters could replace very single MEP and
nothing would change as a result!


And in the Last UK GE London voted approximately twice as many Labour
MPs as Conservative and yet we have a conservative Government.

Should London leave the UK?

If only. Then it would have to survive without being subsidised by the
rural parts of Britain.

Also a wall would perhaps have to be built round it, with customs & excise
ports in it. After all, London would no longer be part of Britain, would
it.


Excellent. All for it.


--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
€“ H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On 25/02/2020 14:02, Pancho wrote:
On 25/02/2020 13:58, Martyn Barclay wrote:


Also a wall would perhaps have to be built round it, with customs &
excise
ports in it. After all, London would no longer be part of Britain, would
it.


A wall! Good idea, it would keep the riff raff out.

A wall! Good idea, it would keep the riff raff in.

--
The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to
rule.
€“ H. L. Mencken, American journalist, 1880-1956

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 14:15:06 +0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Also a wall would perhaps have to be built round it, with customs
&
excise ports in it. After all, London would no longer be part of
Britain, would it.

A wall! Good idea, it would keep the riff raff out.

A wall! Good idea, it would keep the riff raff in.

+1

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You must have a guaranteed public service pension

I have no pension at all

Just savings

Meaning you avoided paying NI all your life? No surprise there.

--
*If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Th4 EU is not a large free trade area., It is a large political entity
that coincidentally has to have free trade within it because it
practices isolationist policies with respect to the free world, and
trade is the only incentive it found to make anyone want to join it,
beyond bribing and blackmailing national politicians of course

You've just described, in the main, Trump's USA.

Not only do they impose trade embargoes on those countries they see as
their 'enemies' but try to force others to do the same. By any means at
their disposal.

But they'll be a wonderful and honest partner to the UK. In your dreams.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
You must have a guaranteed public service pension

I have no pension at all

Just savings

Meaning you avoided paying NI all your life? No surprise there.


Er...?
--
Jimk


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , alan_m
wrote:

On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in
safe seats.

No such thing as a safe seat as the last general election and many council
elections have shown. If a UK Government (or main opposition) or council
make a complete mess of their policies things WILL change.

In the case of the EU the UK voters could replace very single MEP and
nothing would change as a result!

And in fact, we pretty much did last May. And it had no effect at all.

But that's the point about the EU Parliament: it's window dressing, not
for real. That's as intended by the framers of the EU. They never
intended that the people should ever have any say in achieving a United
States of Europe. So they copied their own ****ty PR election methods.

I've seen it said that the use of PR generally across Europe causes
unchangeable, largely centrist, coalitions to exist more or less
permanently.

Clearly not true of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Norway etc etc etc.

And that this is why people resort to extremist parties at
the polls (something you don't see here), because people have no other
way of effecting change.

Thats silly too.

--
The truth of the matter is that we Scots have always been more divided
amongst
ourselves than pitted against the English. Scottish history before the
Union of
Parliaments is a gloomy, violent tale of murders, feuds, and tribal
revenge.
Only after the Act of Union did Highlanders and Lowlanders, Picts and
Celts,
begin to recognise one another as fellow citizens.

Tam Dalyell

"Pancho" wrote in message
...
On 24/02/2020 22:48, Steve Walker wrote:

I've never got this argument.

Yep, I fully understand that EU bureaucrats are corrupt, incompetents
lining their own pockets. The thing is that Westminster bureaucrats are
the same. Local councils too, for that matter.

But the citizens of the UK can vote out councillors or a government that
they feel is itself incompetent or corrupt or who fail to adequately
direct and control bureaucrats who are like that. Our votes had little
effect on the EU.


I'm a citizen of London, England, The UK, and formerly the EU. To be
honest I have felt more at home in New York or Amsterdam than I have in
rural villages in the UK.

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect,

Have always had no effect.

I have lived in safe seats. It is inevitable that If I am a part of any
large group my say will count for little.

For nothing unless you get to decide the policy of the group.

In the UK we are largely controlled by bureaucrats and the super rich.

Thats bull****. Its actually controlled by what the pollys
propose policy wise to get the votes they need.

I believe in personal freedom, I believe local communities should be given
freedom, devolution of power, but we need some wider rules and controls,
otherwise we often end up in a race to the bottom.

I don't see why these wider controls should stop at Westminster.

So I really can't understand the distinction you are trying to draw.

"alan_m" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in safe
seats.

No such thing as a safe seat as the last general election and many council
elections have shown.

There are still some safe seats that will
not change in a general election.

If a UK Government (or main opposition) or council make a complete mess of
their policies things WILL change.

In the case of the EU the UK voters could replace very single MEP and
nothing would change as a result!

Because the EP cant even initiate legislation or amend existing legislation.
All it can do is rubber stamp what the unelected bureaucrats present to it
or reject it and in theory wack the whole lot of them.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 24/02/2020 18:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/02/2020 16:59, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 16:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/02/2020 14:10, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 13:47, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the
UK,
it is 1 in 66.

Yet we want to import cheap food from the US. Always knew
Brexiteers
had a death wish.


Could we not just choose to buy English food/chicken rather than US.

You could, although many will just go for what the supermarket has on
the
shelf at the best price - assuming they even get the choice. As with
so
much else, many require protection from themselves. But do realise
that
won't go down well with many on this group where making a fast buck
is all
that matters.

Personal freedom counts. The right to protect ourselves from
incompetent, corrupt bureaucrats. They say they do it for our own good
but they line their own pockets while "protecting" us.

Which is why we had to leave the EU


I've never got this argument.

Yep, I fully understand that EU bureaucrats are corrupt, incompetents
lining their own pockets. The thing is that Westminster bureaucrats are
the same. Local councils too, for that matter.

You are too stupid to live in a free country. We can sack the ones in
Westminster and the local councils






How do we sack Dominic ?.

By voting Labour into govt.

"Andrew" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 22:48, Steve Walker wrote:

I've never got this argument.

Yep, I fully understand that EU bureaucrats are corrupt, incompetents
lining their own pockets. The thing is that Westminster bureaucrats are
the same. Local councils too, for that matter.

But the citizens of the UK can vote out councillors or a government that
they feel is itself incompetent or corrupt or who fail to adequately
direct and control bureaucrats who are like that. Our votes had little
effect on the EU.


I'm a citizen of London, England, The UK, and formerly the EU. To be
honest I have felt more at home in New York or Amsterdam than I have in
rural villages in the UK.

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in safe
seats. It is inevitable that If I am a part of any large group my say
will count for little. In the UK we are largely controlled by bureaucrats
and the super rich.


But if it bothered you then you could always move to a marginal seat.

And his one vote would still be irrelevant if he did that.

I believe in personal freedom, I believe local communities should be
given freedom, devolution of power, but we need some wider rules and
controls, otherwise we often end up in a race to the bottom.

I don't see why these wider controls should stop at Westminster.

So I really can't understand the distinction you are trying to draw.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:
On 24/02/2020 22:48, Steve Walker wrote:

I've never got this argument.

Yep, I fully understand that EU bureaucrats are corrupt, incompetents
lining their own pockets. The thing is that Westminster bureaucrats are
the same. Local councils too, for that matter.

But the citizens of the UK can vote out councillors or a government that
they feel is itself incompetent or corrupt or who fail to adequately
direct and control bureaucrats who are like that. Our votes had little
effect on the EU.


I'm a citizen of London, England, The UK, and formerly the EU. To be
honest I have felt more at home in New York or Amsterdam than I have in
rural villages in the UK.

yep. urban people are totally unable to function in or comprehend life
outside of a completely man made environment


My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in safe
seats. It is inevitable that If I am a part of any large group my say
will count for little. In the UK we are largely controlled by bureaucrats
and the super rich.

I too have lived in safe seats. The only parties I have voted for in te
last 20 years have been the ones that Nigel Farage was in. He never gained
a Westminster seat and yet my vote was not wasted. I had it from a Tory
activist that it was in fact being 'scared of UKIP' that brought the
referendum at all.

I believe in personal freedom, I believe local communities should be
given freedom, devolution of power, but we need some wider rules and
controls, otherwise we often end up in a race to the bottom.

Well, so you are firmly in favour of Brexit then?

I don't see why these wider controls should stop at Westminster.

So I really can't understand the distinction you are trying to draw.

And I can't understand your distinction either. It seems obvious to me
that nothing is perfect and ideological solutions are worst of all: But
then I don't see politics as an exercise in morality, but as an engineer,
in terms of functional effectiveness in bring health and happiness to the
people that comprise nations.
That implies we need structures and organisations appropriate to the
levels at which they deployed: what we don't need is micro management from
Brussels. Still less do we need political decisions taken by teenage
Swedes or a bunch of activists digging up Trinity College.
Nothing wrong with *an* EU. Everything wrong with the *current* EU.
Functionally pointless organisation.
Likewise city dwellers, who, as you have admitted, don't have a clue about
rural matters, where all their food, energy, water and wealth comes from

Thats not true of wealth.

and where all their **** and waste rubbish goes to, should
not seek to impose their faux morality on people who underpin their
existence.

Gay cockerels end up in pies, for instance, not because they are morally
abhorrent, but because they are bloody useless for anything else.



--
"Corbyn talks about equality, justice, opportunity, health care, peace,
community, compassion, investment, security, housing...."
"What kind of person is not interested in those things?"

"Jeremy Corbyn?"

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 25/02/2020 10:43, alan_m wrote:
On 25/02/2020 07:49, Brian Gaff (Sofa 2) wrote:
Of course it could be they are just not so careful with hygene in some
places. I think a lot of the worry about US food is part of the way they
make the food safe is hardly going to improve its taste or nutrient
potential. Cardboard chicken and all that.

That assumes that the taste and nutrient potential of the food we
currently eat is of a higher standard. In all processed food the
deficiencies in taste are enhanced with handfuls of salt, sugar and
artificial flavour enhancers.

I haven't bough Cadbury's chocolate since the takeover.

A lot of fruit from worldwide sources
seems to have been grown for "class 1" looks rather than any flavour.
Anyone for nice red early Spanish strawberries that taste of absolutely
NOTHING?


they taste a bit of strawberries.
But that's the price you pay for big fruit grown in a climate hotter than
it evolved in.

No its not, ours are delicious in a hotter climate than Spain.

When I lived in Jo'burg the potatoes were massive floury and tasteless

Ours in a similar climate arent.

and so were the tomatoes.

Not here with the best varieties.

On the other hand mangoes pineapples and squashes were to die for.

As were all citrus fruits peaches and so on.



--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
bert wrote:
In article , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
Seems 1 in 6 will get food poisoning in the US each year. In the UK, it
is
1 in 66.

Not the figures I've seen/ Care to give a citation - and for Germany
also.

OK, then. Give the 'true' figures.

Not even possible given the different measures used and no formal reporting
of all food poisoning incidents
with most not even bothering to see a doctor about food poisoning.

On 25/02/2020 17:27, John_j wrote:


"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
In article , alan_m
wrote:

On 25/02/2020 09:51, Pancho wrote:

My votes in the UK have almost always had no effect, I have lived in
safe seats.

No such thing as a safe seat as the last general election and many
council elections have shown. If a UK Government (or main opposition)
or council make a complete mess of their policies things WILL change.

In the case of the EU the UK voters could replace very single MEP and
nothing would change as a result!

And in fact, we pretty much did last May. And it had no effect at all.

But that's the point about the EU Parliament: it's window dressing, not
for real. That's as intended by the framers of the EU. They never
intended that the people should ever have any say in achieving a United
States of Europe. So they copied their own ****ty PR election methods.

I've seen it said that the use of PR generally across Europe causes
unchangeable, largely centrist, coalitions to exist more or less
permanently.

Clearly not true of Italy, Spain, Portugal, Greece, Norway etc etc etc.

And that this is why people resort to extremist parties at
the polls (something you don't see here), because people have no other
way of effecting change.

Thats silly too.

It may be silly, but its what people are doing


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
bert wrote:
By all means point out the way something is measured may effect the true
figures, especially where that also allows those who want to to ignore a
trend. But to have credence, you'd also have to say fully what the
differences are in how the figures are collected.

Well come on then. That's what we are waiting for. You started this
thread.

The figures in both cases come from government statistics.

But werent statistics of the same thing. In one case it is
confirmed tested examples of food poisoning, in the
other it was just an estimate of what might have
happened and hadn't been reported to anyone.

Up to you to show where they are flawed.

It’s the comparison between apples and oranges that is the flaw.

--
*Home cooking. Where many a man thinks his wife is.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 25/02/2020 18:01, John_j wrote:
Likewise city dwellers, who, as you have admitted, don't have a clue
about rural matters, where all their food, energy, water and wealth
comes from

Thats not true of wealth.

Cites no longer create any tangible wealth,. The factories are all
elsewhere.

They are dormitories for zombies in public sector employment or
financial parasites in that sector.


--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher