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Old February 14th 20, 02:51 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW


This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW


Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in
from underground ?.

If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth
cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it.

The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem
to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB
an older name for RCD ?. Not sure.

Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion.
I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know.


The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the
corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road.
tw

  #22   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 02:53 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW


This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd
rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to
advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to
the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw
  #23   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 03:27 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 943
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 13:53, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:25, Robin wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and
onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag
on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?



That looks promising (but also a bit of a dog's breakfast).Â* But I'd
rather leave it to those who have seen an awful lot more of them to
advise the next step.

On a point of detail, can you see/work out where the wire connected to
the copper pipe comes from?

No, it comes from the gaps between the joists.
tw


Don't worry about that, it's trivial compared with your earthing.

The news that you have an overhead supply combined with the "dog's
breakfast" aspect makes me more inclined to suspect a "DIY PME"
installation. That is, someone has come along and connected the earth
cable between the incomer and the consumer unit to make it look as if
you have TN-C-S/PME when in fact you have TT.

It doesn't follow that you have an exceedingly dangerous setup. And
there might be an earth rod somewhere. But when looked at alongside the
consumer unit (with it's mix of brands and lack of RCD protection on
some circuits) I'd be bothered. I think you should have it looked at.
But others will know more and better than me.

In the meantime be careful.



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid
  #24   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 04:44 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote:


Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation.


But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this
clamp was merely equipotential bonding?



Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky around
asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have mentioned
is a very dangerous installation.


Although *if* it is a reasonably recent installation, the supplier's
main fuse or switch may bear the magic letters "PME".

That said, mine did when I moved in, but the earth was not in fact
connected to the neutral, but to a fairly feeble looking earth rod right
by the front door.

As someone else suggested, a photo of the fuse box and surrounds would
let us advise better.
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Old February 14th 20, 04:49 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 85
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW


This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW


It is not possible from the photo posted to say definitively what type
of earthing system you have here.

You would need to get a competent electrician to determine that.

You may be able to speak to your DNO (distribution network operator) to
determine if their network in your area has PME (protective multiple
earting) available.

Re Your original question about the 'earth wire' connected to the water
pipe, this is most likely to be a bonding connection.


  #26   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 04:59 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 3,685
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 13:51, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and
onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag
on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW


Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in
from underground ?.

If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth
cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it.

The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem
to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB
an older name for RCD ?. Not sure.

Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion.
I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know.


The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the
corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road.
tw


I wonder why there is an earth cable going into the company fuse
block then ?. I thought overhead supply was phase and neutral only and
you had to have a separate earthing arrangement.

There is another earth cable coming out of the company fuse block
and it droops down but doesn't seem to go anywhere ?. Is this
correct ?.
  #27   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 05:09 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 23,217
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 15:44, newshound wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:10, Tim Watts wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:06, Tim Watts wrote:
On 13/02/2020 22:35, TimW wrote:


Earth rod and required RCD measures if you are a TT installation.


But are you maybe a TN-C-S or TN-S (supplier provided earth) and this
clamp was merely equipotential bonding?



Going to add - if you can't work it out, best call a local sparky
around asap to check it out. The worst case scenario as others have
mentioned is a very dangerous installation.


Although *if* it is a reasonably recent installation, the supplier's
main fuse or switch may bear the magic letters "PME".

That said, mine did when I moved in, but the earth was not in fact
connected to the neutral, but to a fairly feeble looking earth rod right
by the front door.


Indeed the sticker alone is not solid evidence that the install is
actually using the PME earth.

My cutout has the PME sticker, but it would seem that the upgrade to a
PME capable supply occurred after the house was previously re-wired.

Hence the installation is TT (as would be typical for many rural
properties with overhead supplies).




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #28   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 05:39 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 23,217
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into my
house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the stairs.
There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe and onto the
copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a tag on saying
"Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in the
plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW


This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box of
trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old economy 7
circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?


That superficially at least looks like a TN-C-S install. There is a
yellow sticker on the side of the cutout, does that say PME by any chance?

If it is as it appears, then the connection to the water main was just
an equipotential bond. It still needs to be connected back to the
incoming cold supply just after your stop tap if your internal pipework
is metal, but it does not pose as serious a risk as not having a main
earth.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #29   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 05:40 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Posts: 23,217
Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 15:59, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 13:51, TimW wrote:
On 14/02/2020 12:39, Andrew wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:
On 13/02/2020 21:59, TimW wrote:
There was an ancient (1950s) steel pipe bringing mains water into
my house under the front room and then up in the cup'd under the
stairs. There there was a stop cock and it went into copper pipe
and onto the copper a large sleeved earth wire was connected with a
tag on saying "Do Not Remove".

The steel pipe was leaking so I have taken it all out and replaced
with blue plastic pipe. Was looking at the earth arrangement and
wondering if I need to earth the wiring in another way, into the
ground or something, or are we still earthed through the water in
the plastic pipe out to the outside world?

TW

This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the
box of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the
old economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW

Does the black cable that feeds the companies 80 amp fuse come in
from underground ?.

If so, you probably have a PME arrangement. In fact the 10mm earth
cable going into that 80 amp fuse block seems to confirm it.

The CU and meter look reasonably modern (-ish). The ring mains seem
to be protected by a residual current device of some sort. Is RCCB
an older name for RCD ?. Not sure.

Curiously there are Wylex MCBs and an MK one for the immersion.
I didn't think they were physically compatible. Adam will know.


The black cable is the end of the overhead power line, attached to the
corner of the house, coming from a pole across the road.
tw


I wonder why there is an earth cable going into the company fuse
block then ?. I thought overhead supply was phase and neutral only and
you had to have a separate earthing arrangement.


Historically that was the case, but many overhead supplies have been
upgraded with PME capability over the years. (sometimes looking at the
polls will give a clue - they may have earthing conductors running down
the side of every few)

There is another earth cable coming out of the company fuse block
and it droops down but doesn't seem to go anywhere ?. Is this
correct ?.


Probably a left over from the now removed time switched CU.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/
  #30   Report Post  
Old February 14th 20, 05:50 PM posted to uk.d-i-y
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Default Earthing through plastic pipe

On 14/02/2020 15:49, Tufnell Park wrote:
On 14/02/2020 11:23, TimW wrote:


This is the supply in the porch:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZhguWVyk5kZkbs1X9
Two substantial earth cables from the black box, one going to the box
of trip switches, the other just dangling, redundant from the old
economy 7 circuit or something.

Can wiser eyes than mine declare the type of earthing arrangement?

RW


It is not possible from the photo posted to say definitively what type
of earthing system you have here.

You would need to get a competent electrician to determine that.


I would say if Tim can confirm the presence of the PME sticker (assuming
this is a UK installation) on the left of the cutout, there is a very
strong likelihood of it being TN-C-S.

To be certain he could, turn off the power, pull the main fuse, and take
the cover off the cutout (with the normal warnings about access to live
parts etc). A TN-C-S install would have a metal bridge between the
neutral and earth terminal blocks in the cutout:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...ePMECutout.jpg

The same style of cutout can be used for other supply types. Say it were
TN-S you may see something like:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...PMECutout3.jpg

(Note the missing link, and the separate earth feed from a split
concentric cable)

You may be able to speak to your DNO (distribution network operator) to
determine if their network in your area has PME (protective multiple
earting) available.


Yup, they should be able to tell you what its capable off even if not
what your actual installation is.

Re Your original question about the 'earth wire' connected to the water
pipe, this is most likely to be a bonding connection.


I would concur.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


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