On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

"fred" wrote in message
...
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on the
right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the right of
way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to
traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees
there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

There are three cases:

- driver on right gets there first: he has priority and you must give way to
him

- you and driver on right get there at the same time: he has priority and
you must give way to him

- you get there before other driver: you don not have to give way, but
should aim to be clear of the roundabout so he can pass behind you without
having to brake more harshly than needed for negotiating the curve of the
roundabout

There is no obligation *always* to give way to traffic on your right (on the
roundabout or about to join) if you will be clear and will not affect them.
Consider the case of a car on your right that is 100 yards away from the
roundabout as you arrive. You don't have to stop (and it would be bad
driving to do so) just because he is visible in the distance; you will have
exited the roundabout on the far side long before he even crosses his
give-way line.

Obviously there are boundary cases where people cut it very fine and *do*
make the driver on your right brake hard to avoid hitting you. On a busy
road where I can see traffic queueing to join, I expect that cars might cut
it fairly fine even though I have priority over them, and I am prepared to
brake harder than normal (and give them a warning hoot!) just in case.
Roundabouts don't work well if there is far more traffic going in one
direction, such that traffic coming from the left never gets chance to join
the roundabout because there is never a large enough gap to do so: that is
when peak-hours traffic lights are needed.

On 13/01/2020 11:52, fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.


The requirement for vehicles entering a normal roundabout* is to comply
with the legal definition of give way:

'No vehicle is to cross the transverse line ... so as to be likely to
endanger any person, or to cause the driver of another vehicle to change
its speed or course in order to avoid an accident.'

* There are roundabouts where the traffic in the roundabout has to give
way to traffic entering. E.g. the A24 northbound has priority at the
B2209 roundabout.

--
Colin Bignell

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 03:52:12 -0800 (PST), fred
wrote:

On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

Highway Code Rule 185
When reaching the roundabout you should:
* give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless
directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
* check whether road markings allow you to enter the roundabout
without giving way. If so, proceed, but still look to the right before
joining
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all
* look forward before moving off to make sure traffic in front has
moved off.

The words 'give priority to traffic approaching from your right' are
not qualified by the words 'provided that such vehicle is already on
the roundabout'. However 'give way' does not mean stop so I think the
test would be whether the other drive is forced to change speed or
direction.

Straight from the highway code

give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights.

Basically anyone approaching from your right and that might be straight ahead on a 3 road roundabout has priority, however you have to make a judgement call regards have you time to clear the way before someone approaching from the right reaches you. Essentially you should not enter if a vehicle or other means of transport has to brake in order to let you through.

Richard

"Scott" wrote in message
...
The words 'give priority to traffic approaching from your right' are
not qualified by the words 'provided that such vehicle is already on
the roundabout'. However 'give way' does not mean stop so I think the
test would be whether the other driver is forced to change speed or
direction.

Yes, in the same way as you are not *always* required to stop at a give-way
junction (eg a minor road at a T junction or crossroads), even if there is
traffic coming from your left or right, providing it is far enough away that
you can turn and join/cross that stream of traffic without making it slow
down.

This is in contrast to a stop junction where you must come to a complete
halt (and maybe put the handbrake on for a microsecond if you are taking
your test!) even if there is no traffic in sight.


If I am on a major road and I see a car waiting to pull out from a minor
road, I *may* take pity on them and give them a double-flash of my
headlights (two flashes to make it clear I haven't accidentally caught the
switch!) while I am still far enough away that they have time to get out and
up to speed without me having to do more than slow down slightly. There
really does need to be a proper, unambiguous signal (no headlamp flashing)
to communicate this, which would silence all the people who wibble on about
"but flashing headlights has only one meaning - a visible warning that you
are present". It's just as much as signal as an indicator, in that it lets
the other driver know your intentions (indicating left implies that another
car can safely pull out from the road you're turning into; flashing your
headlights (or whatever signal is used) implies that you are letting the car
pull out ahead of you and will avoid him.

What I don't do is flash someone out if there's nothing behind me: he can
wait an extra few seconds and pull out behind me.

Also if you are chasing around so fast you cannot stop before hitting the
car in front you are either too fast or too close or both!
Cyclists seem to think they have priority too, even over poor pedestrians,
since if they can at a junction they zoom up the crossing and go onto the
footway.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Chris Hogg" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 03:52:12 -0800 (PST), fred
wrote:

On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on the
right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the right of
way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to
traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees
there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

The Highway Code doesn't seem to be clear on this, either. In the
section on Roundabouts, it says "When reaching a roundabout you
should:
Always give priority to the traffic coming from the right, unless
you have been directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic
lights"

and so on.
https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/chan...r-roundabouts#

But it doesn't stipulate whether 'the traffic coming from the right'
is actually on the roundabout, about to come onto the roundabout, or
approaching the roundabout and fifty yards away.

I guess you have to use your common sense, much like at any road
junction, along the lines of 'can I safely get out onto the roundabout
before the traffic coming from the right reaches the space I'm about
to occupy'.

--

Chris

In article ,
fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on
the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the
right of way?

Assuming you can negotiate the roundabout without interfering with his
progress, carry on. But not if you would force him to slow down.


Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to traffic
on the right?

On the roundabout is IIRC what the HC says.

I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout
sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

Perhaps the odd car from the right crashing into him might make him change
his ways?

--
*I don't suffer from insanity -- I'm a carrier

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/01/2020 11:52, fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road
on the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has
the right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout
or give way to traffic on the right? I see so many cases where
because the driver entering the roundabout sees there is no traffic
on his right he assumes he has right of way.

He has.

You should if you cant get way without causing him to brake or get
close, wait.



--
Ideas are more powerful than guns. We would not let our enemies have
guns, why should we let them have ideas?

Josef Stalin

In article ,
NY wrote:
The words 'give priority to traffic approaching from your right' are
not qualified by the words 'provided that such vehicle is already on
the roundabout'. However 'give way' does not mean stop so I think the
test would be whether the other driver is forced to change speed or
direction.

Yes, in the same way as you are not *always* required to stop at a
give-way junction (eg a minor road at a T junction or crossroads), even
if there is traffic coming from your left or right, providing it is far
enough away that you can turn and join/cross that stream of traffic
without making it slow down.

The key phrase is 'give way'. If you don't force the other vehicle to slow
or brake, then he is not giving way to you.

This is in contrast to a stop junction where you must come to a complete
halt (and maybe put the handbrake on for a microsecond if you are taking
your test!) even if there is no traffic in sight.

Denoted by a solid, rather than broken, white line. If it is still visible.

--
*Virtual reality is its own reward*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim Streater wrote:

As far as I'm concerned it's traffic already on the roundabout.
Although if some loony is approaching it at 900mph from my right I
wooden push the issue.

On the approaches to this roundabout:

http://goo.gl/maps/k1xYx

a barrier has been erected so that you can't see traffic already
on the roundabout until the last minute, presumably with the
intention of making you approach the give way line more slowly,
rather than speeding through if you think it is clear.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK
@ChrisJDixon1

Plant amazing Acers.

Chris J Dixon wrote:

a barrier has been erected so that you can't see traffic already
on the roundabout until the last minute, presumably with the
intention of making you approach the give way line more slowly,
rather than speeding through if you think it is clear.

Th council here tried a similar trick, presumably it had the opposite
effect on accidents as they removed it after a couple of years

On 13/01/2020 11:52, fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.


Nightjar's post gives what I feel is the plain meaning of the words
"give way".

In addition compare the Highway Code's:

"give priority to traffic approaching from your right" with

"watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout".

Evidence that if they meant "give priority to traffic already on the
roundabout on your right" they'd have said so.


--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

"Scott" wrote in message
...
Highway Code Rule 185
When reaching the roundabout you should:
* give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless
directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights
* check whether road markings allow you to enter the roundabout
without giving way. If so, proceed, but still look to the right before
joining
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all
* look forward before moving off to make sure traffic in front has
moved off.

Has the give-way-to-traffic-on-the-right rule on roundabouts always applied?
I ask because there's a Youtube video of a film made in 1963 by the
Institute of Advanced Motorists https://youtu.be/YIgskqk5PB4?t=220 in which
their chief examiner is commenting as he drives from London to Bath via the
A4. When he gets to a roundabout in Newbury he has priority over traffic
coming up the high street to join the A4 (because he's coming from its
right).

But there's a car in front of him who has stopped on the roundabout to let
several cars join the roundabout, and he makes no comment about this, and
then he says "there's a driver [from my left] slowing down and signalling me
to go, so I shall thank him and proceed" as if it wasn't a foregone
conclusion that traffic from his left should stop.

But things were a lot more leisurely. Later on, in Marlborough at
https://youtu.be/YIgskqk5PB4?t=424 the road curves round to the right and a
car is waiting on a side road that joins on the outside of that bend.
"There's a car coming out of that turning on my left. He's waiting for me so
I'm going to accept his courtesy". It's not really courtesy; it's complying
with the rules of the road that you wait at a give way or stop junction for
traffic on the main road to go past.

However it's not all courtesy and good manners. Look at
https://youtu.be/YIgskqk5PB4?t=70, in which he's following another car that
overtaking in Lane 2 of the M4 (when it only had 2 lanes!). It stays in Lane
2 and doesn't move over to let him past, so he gives several long blasts on
his horn, which comes over as surprisingly aggressive - not surprising that
the other driver gives him a V sign "I can't think why he should think I'm
interested in his politics!".

fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

In Australia the rule is clear, you should give way to traffic already
in the roundabout, I would imagine that your rules are similar,there is
no give way to the right, give way means that if there is a danger of
them hitting you or have to brake you should give way, it does not mean
you have to wait for an empty round about
In your case you would have the right but would be silly to force the
issue resulting in an accident even though they would be in the wrong

On 13/01/2020 16:15, FMurtz wrote:
fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on
the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the
right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or
give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout
sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

In Australia the rule is clear, you should give way to traffic already
in the roundabout, I would imagine that your rules are similar,

but /significantly/ different in that you have the restriction to
"already on" that we don't.

And which seems to me a recipe for fun at mini-roundabouts as whoever
gets there first has priority.




--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/01/20 12:22, Scott wrote:
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

When did it become the rule not to signal when entering the roundabout
but only when leaving (or not at all)?

Another Dave
--
Change nospam to techie

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 04:24:18 -0800 (PST), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

Straight from the highway code

give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights.

Basically anyone approaching from your right and that might be straight ahead on a 3 road roundabout has priority, however you have to make a judgement call regards have you time to clear the way before someone approaching from the right reaches you. Essentially you should not enter if a vehicle or other means of transport has to brake in order to let you through.

Quite so. I think it is 'speed or direction' rather than just speed,

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:33:35 +0000, Another Dave
wrote:

On 13/01/20 12:22, Scott wrote:
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

When did it become the rule not to signal when entering the roundabout
but only when leaving (or not at all)?

The rule round here seems to be not at all. You are then left waiting
to give way to some c**t that is intending to leave the roundabout.

On Monday, 13 January 2020 16:15:07 UTC, NY wrote:

However it's not all courtesy and good manners. Look at
https://youtu.be/YIgskqk5PB4?t=70, in which he's following another car that
overtaking in Lane 2 of the M4 (when it only had 2 lanes!).

The M4 still only has two lanes.

Well, the bit I was on the other day. :-)

On Monday, 13 January 2020 15:08:09 UTC, NY wrote:


What I don't do is flash someone out if there's nothing behind me: he can
wait an extra few seconds and pull out behind me.

In the recent past I have often wished that someone had not flashed or waved me in. When reasonably quiet, I am usually mentally prepared to wait so I'd actually prefer to wait. It is when it is busy I'd appreciate being let out, and no bugger does.

On 13/01/2020 18:16, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 04:24:18 -0800 (PST), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

Straight from the highway code

give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights.

Basically anyone approaching from your right and that might be straight ahead on a 3 road roundabout has priority, however you have to make a judgement call regards have you time to clear the way before someone approaching from the right reaches you. Essentially you should not enter if a vehicle or other means of transport has to brake in order to let you through.

Quite so. I think it is 'speed or direction' rather than just speed,




That used to be called velocity in my school day:-)

--
Adam

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 18:49:41 +0000, ARW
wrote:

On 13/01/2020 18:16, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 04:24:18 -0800 (PST), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

Straight from the highway code

give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights.

Basically anyone approaching from your right and that might be straight ahead on a 3 road roundabout has priority, however you have to make a judgement call regards have you time to clear the way before someone approaching from the right reaches you. Essentially you should not enter if a vehicle or other means of transport has to brake in order to let you through.

Quite so. I think it is 'speed or direction' rather than just speed,

That used to be called velocity in my school day:-)

Indeed. And we were chastised for confusing mass and weight.

"Scott" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:33:35 +0000, Another Dave
wrote:

On 13/01/20 12:22, Scott wrote:
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

When did it become the rule not to signal when entering the roundabout
but only when leaving (or not at all)?

The rule round here seems to be not at all. You are then left waiting
to give way to some c**t that is intending to leave the roundabout.

I indicate as I approach if I'm turning left or right (but not if I'm going
straight ahead), and then indicate left as I've just passed the exit before
I want to leave - waiting until my left signal can't be misinterpreted as
being for that previous exit. If I'm turning right, I leave my right
indicator on until I have just passed the straight-on exit, then change it
to left indicator and then move across from lane 2 to lane 1 on the
roundabout in preparation for leaving.

If a roundabout only has a right-hand exit (maybe because other roads for
left and straight ahead haven't been built, indicating is probably
superfluous but I still indicate...

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
NY
Has the give-way-to-traffic-on-the-right rule on roundabouts always
applied?

I think that rule was made firm under Barbara Castle. BICBW.

So who was defined to have priority over whom before Barbara Castle? Was it
one of those dreaded cases (which are now very rare) where no-one had
priority and it was a free-for-all, based on politeness. If there was no
defined priority from the right at a roundabout, then I can imagine it would
lead to all the faffing around and stopping on the middle of a roundabout
that we saw in the IAM video.

"polygonum_on_google" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 13 January 2020 15:08:09 UTC, NY wrote:


What I don't do is flash someone out if there's nothing behind me: he can
wait an extra few seconds and pull out behind me.

In the recent past I have often wished that someone had not flashed or
waved me in. When reasonably quiet, I am usually mentally prepared to wait
so I'd actually prefer to wait. It is when it is busy I'd appreciate being
let out, and no bugger does.

When I'm stopped at a junction I'm always in gear and ready to set off at a
moment's notice if someone takes pity on me. It's rare that I get caught
with my pants down, in neutral and/or with the engine auto-stopped.

"Robin" wrote in message
...
On 13/01/2020 16:15, FMurtz wrote:
fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on
the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the
right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give
way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout
sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

In Australia the rule is clear, you should give way to traffic already in
the roundabout, I would imagine that your rules are similar,

but /significantly/ different in that you have the restriction to "already
on" that we don't.

And which seems to me a recipe for fun at mini-roundabouts as whoever gets
there first has priority.

Reality is that it works fine.

In article , fred
writes
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on
the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the
right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or give
way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout
sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.
What a dumb question.

--
bert

On Tue, 14 Jan 2020 06:40:50 +1100, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Reality is that it works fine.

Reality is that you are a self-important, self-opinionated trolling asshole
from Oz!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

In article , fred
writes
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout sees
there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

He *does* have "right of way" to the extent that he can go if it is safe
because there is no other car on his right (on the approach or the
roundabout) which is close enough that it would have to brake to avoid him.
Otherwise everyone would stop at a roundabout and stay stopped because there
was a car several hundred yards away on his right.

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:30:32 -0000, "NY" wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:33:35 +0000, Another Dave
wrote:

On 13/01/20 12:22, Scott wrote:
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

When did it become the rule not to signal when entering the roundabout
but only when leaving (or not at all)?

The rule round here seems to be not at all. You are then left waiting
to give way to some c**t that is intending to leave the roundabout.

I indicate as I approach if I'm turning left or right (but not if I'm going
straight ahead), and then indicate left as I've just passed the exit before
I want to leave - waiting until my left signal can't be misinterpreted as
being for that previous exit. If I'm turning right, I leave my right
indicator on until I have just passed the straight-on exit, then change it
to left indicator and then move across from lane 2 to lane 1 on the
roundabout in preparation for leaving.

If a roundabout only has a right-hand exit (maybe because other roads for
left and straight ahead haven't been built, indicating is probably
superfluous but I still indicate...

This would seem to be a model of rectitude.

On 13/01/2020 15:50, Andy Burns wrote:
Chris J Dixon wrote:

a barrier has been erected so that you can't see traffic already
on the roundabout until the last minute, presumably with the
intention of making you approach the give way line more slowly,
rather than speeding through if you think it is clear.

Th council here tried a similar trick, presumably it had the opposite
effect on accidents as they removed it after a couple of years

The very large business park that I work on has access from the
motorway. The junction serves only the park and a small commercial waste
site.

Bushes and trees planted at the top force drivers coming up the
slip-road to almost stop, with the result that they are going too slowly
to take advantage of gaps in the traffic coming around the roundabout.
All the vehicles stopping or nearly stopping causes a tailback, which
sometimes trails right back onto the motorway, causing stationary
traffic in the first lane.

The stupid thing is that removing the bushes and trees would allow
drivers to adjust their speed and slot in (as roundabouts were always
intended to be used).

Even worse is that they have just widened the road from the roundabout
to the business park to a dual-carriageway, but did not take the
opportunity to make the (newly constructed) left lane separate from the
roundabout, allowing exiting motorway traffic to flow without hindrance.

SteveW

On 13/01/2020 21:20, NY wrote:
In article ,
fred writes
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout
sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.

He *does* have "right of way" to the extent that he can go if it is safe
because there is no other car on his right (on the approach or the
roundabout) which is close enough that it would have to brake to avoid
him. Otherwise everyone would stop at a roundabout and stay stopped
because there was a car several hundred yards away on his right.

The rubric to "General rules, techniques and advice for all drivers and
riders" in the Highway Code deals with "right of way":

"The rules in The Highway Code do not give you the right of way in any
circumstance, but they advise you when you should give way to others."



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 13/01/2020 16:10, Robin wrote:
On 13/01/2020 11:52, fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road on
the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has the
right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout or
give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout
sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.


Nightjar's post gives what I feel is the plain meaning of the words
"give way".

In addition compare the Highway Code's:

"give priority to traffic approaching from your right" with

"watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout".

Evidence that if they meant "give priority to traffic already on the
roundabout on your right" they'd have said so.

Except that with a roundabout, if you enter before someone to your right
enters, the fact that it is a circle means that you are on *his* right,
but additionally are on the roundabout.

I did once train as a driving instructor (never started teaching though
as other work cam along) and we were taught that it means give way to
traffic that is on the roundabout and to your right. Until someone has
crossed the line, everyone has equal priority.

SteveW

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 21:33:12 +0000, Scott wrote:

On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:30:32 -0000, "NY" wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:33:35 +0000, Another Dave
wrote:

On 13/01/20 12:22, Scott wrote:
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

When did it become the rule not to signal when entering the roundabout
but only when leaving (or not at all)?

The rule round here seems to be not at all. You are then left waiting
to give way to some c**t that is intending to leave the roundabout.

I indicate as I approach if I'm turning left or right (but not if I'm
going straight ahead), and then indicate left as I've just passed the
exit before I want to leave - waiting until my left signal can't be
misinterpreted as being for that previous exit. If I'm turning right, I
leave my right indicator on until I have just passed the straight-on
exit, then change it to left indicator and then move across from lane 2
to lane 1 on the roundabout in preparation for leaving.

If a roundabout only has a right-hand exit (maybe because other roads
for left and straight ahead haven't been built, indicating is probably
superfluous but I still indicate...

This would seem to be a model of rectitude.

There were arguments on a local discussion group about whether one should
indicate right when (if entering at the 6 o'clock position) the intended
exits were at 9, 1 and 3, and one wanted the 1 o'clock one. There is a
roundabout like that here that I use every day.




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On 13/01/2020 19:34, NY wrote:
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
NY
Has the give-way-to-traffic-on-the-right rule on roundabouts always
applied?

I think that rule was made firm under Barbara Castle. BICBW.

So who was defined to have priority over whom before Barbara Castle? Was
it one of those dreaded cases (which are now very rare) where no-one had
priority and it was a free-for-all, based on politeness. If there was no
defined priority from the right at a roundabout, then I can imagine it
would lead to all the faffing around and stopping on the middle of a

roundabout that we saw in the IAM video.

How many roundabouts were there before Barbara?

That was a big period of post war road building

In any case I think there were usually give way signs before that.

Wiki

"Widespread use of the modern roundabout began when the UK's Transport
Research Laboratory engineers re-engineered and standardised circular
intersections during the 1960s. Frank Blackmore led the development of
the "Priority Rule" and subsequently invented the mini-roundabout to
overcome capacity and safety limitations. The priority rule was found to
improve traffic flow by up to 10%.[15] The design became mandatory in
the United Kingdom for all new roundabouts in November 1966"

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On 13/01/2020 17:33, Another Dave wrote:
On 13/01/20 12:22, Scott wrote:
* watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout; be
aware they may not be signalling correctly or at all

When did it become the rule not to signal when entering the roundabout
but only when leaving (or not at all)?


Well why would you signal; to ENTER a roundabout?
Since you can only go one way?


Another Dave


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On 13/01/2020 22:01, Steve Walker wrote:
On 13/01/2020 16:10, Robin wrote:
On 13/01/2020 11:52, fred wrote:
On a fairly open roundabout I can see a car approaching from a road
on the right. Given that I will be on the roundabout first who has
the right of way? Is the rule give way to traffic on the roundabout
or give way to traffic on the right?
I see so many cases where because the driver entering the roundabout
sees there is no traffic on his right he assumes he has right of way.


Nightjar's post gives what I feel is the plain meaning of the words
"give way".

In addition compare the Highway Code's:

"give priority to traffic approaching from your right" with

"watch out for all other road users already on the roundabout".

Evidence that if they meant "give priority to traffic already on the
roundabout on your right" they'd have said so.

Except that with a roundabout, if you enter before someone to your right
enters, the fact that it is a circle means that you are on *his* right,
but additionally are on the roundabout.

I did once train as a driving instructor (never started teaching though
as other work cam along) and we were taught that it means give way to
traffic that is on the roundabout and to your right. Until someone has
crossed the line, everyone has equal priority.


That sent me looking for judgments, and in the only published case I
found the Court of Appeal agreed with you, but left the door open for
argument in exceptional cases:

"In the paradigm case of a typical "full" roundabout €“ which is the
apparent subject of para. 185 of the Code (which indeed contains an
illustration of such a roundabout) €“ the distances involved, and the
speeds of approach dictated by the configuration of the roundabout, are
such that drivers approaching it will not normally be "inconvenienced"
by another driver entering ahead of them from the next road on the left;
and "priority" will thus only be a realistic issue as regards vehicles
already on the roundabout. I accept that there may be cases €“ most
obviously on a mini-roundabout, where the distances are much shorter €“
where a driver who has not yet reached the roundabout may be
inconvenienced by a vehicle entering the roundabout before him from the
next entrance to the left, but that is only likely to be the case if he
is approaching at an inappropriate speed: any driver approaching a
roundabout should be doing so at a moderate speed which enables him €“ as
the experts agreed in their joint statement (see para. 27) €“ to stop if
necessary. The truth is that in a case where two drivers are approaching
a mini-roundabout, one being closer but the other travelling faster, the
rules about priority may not give a black-and-white answer: which ought
to accommodate the other will, as was apparently accepted at trial,
involve an exercise of judgement on the part of each drivers, with each
being prepared to stop at the give way line if there is room for doubt
about the other's intentions."



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On Monday, 13 January 2020 18:49:46 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 13/01/2020 18:16, Scott wrote:
On Mon, 13 Jan 2020 04:24:18 -0800 (PST), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

Straight from the highway code

give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights.

Basically anyone approaching from your right and that might be straight ahead on a 3 road roundabout has priority, however you have to make a judgement call regards have you time to clear the way before someone approaching from the right reaches you. Essentially you should not enter if a vehicle or other means of transport has to brake in order to let you through.

Quite so. I think it is 'speed or direction' rather than just speed,




That used to be called velocity in my school day:-)

Velocity has speed AND direction.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
When did it become the rule not to signal when entering the roundabout
but only when leaving (or not at all)?


Well why would you signal; to ENTER a roundabout?
Since you can only go one way?

You are telling other traffic which way (left, straight ahead or right) you
intend to go once you have entered the roundabout.

This is particularly important with roundabouts that have a clear line of
sight (ie no raised central mound) where traffic approaching from other
directions can see you are you approach. Consider two cars approaching a
roundabout from opposite directions. If Driver A is indicating left (or is
not indicating), Driver B knows that he can join the roundabout because A
will not be turning right across his path once he is on the roundabout; if A
is indicating right, B knows that he will have to wait. OK, so if A isn't
indicating it may still mean that he is turning right but has forgotten to
indicate; in that situation I (as driver B) tend to be more cautious that if
A has explicitly indicated left.