On Friday, 25 October 2019 15:50:11 UTC+1, Roger Hayter wrote:
So does sitting at home in your overcoat all day to save the climate -
but I don't do it.

I do.

I don't care about the climate, but I do care about my electricity bill.

Owain

On 24/10/2019 20:36, Robin wrote:
On 24/10/2019 19:25, ARW wrote:


Remember the Ideal Mexico?


No! My ignorance is almost immaculate. It's not just that I'd never
heard of the Ideal Mexico.Â* When I Googled for it I fully expected to
see results from local waxing centres.


It's a big metal lump that could absorb the excess heat without a pump
overrun and a bypass.

Probably full of asbestos as well.

It would take three of me to move one.

--
Adam

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 19:19:26 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 24/10/2019 01:14, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:10:17 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Yup. ;-(

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.

Yup. So, more complexity than TRV / no room stat arrangement and
energy wasted on the valves, if electric?

Hardly complex.

We will see.

Each timer/stat simply switches a valve.

So, extra timer/stats and special valves. How many parts in each
compared with a wax pellet type TRV?

All the valve
limit switches are connected together, so any open valve energises the
boiler.

Ah, all self powered and wireless then, or do you actually have to
have more complexity than a straight TRV?

The valves waste very little energy, they are rated at only 6W each and
are only energised when heat is required, so unlikely to be totally
wasted energy anyway - it's a tiny bit more heat ending up in the house.

Ok.

I had TRVs originally and making each room its own zone is far more
flexible.

By flexible I'm not sure how much more flexible you need other than to
have each room set at whatever temperature you like independently of
any other?

eg. I set each room up for her about 5 years ago and she's not asked
me or changed them herself ever since?

I'm not saying that having ultimate control isn't a 'nice / good
idea', just that I question how many people would ever make full /
regular use of it or miss the 'flexibility' over straight TRV's?

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 09:17:52 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

Nope, because as soon as the timer calls for central heating the
boiler and pump are turned on? If you want heat outside that you set
it to Continuous.

On a cold frosty morning and the temperature is low a room thermostat
can tell the boiler and the pump to switch on.

See above?

Cheers, T i m

On 25/10/2019 23:09, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 19:19:26 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 24/10/2019 01:14, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:10:17 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Yup. ;-(

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.

Yup. So, more complexity than TRV / no room stat arrangement and
energy wasted on the valves, if electric?

Hardly complex.

We will see.

Each timer/stat simply switches a valve.

So, extra timer/stats and special valves. How many parts in each
compared with a wax pellet type TRV?

Yes, extra timer/stats and valves. The timer/stats were £14 each at
Maplin at the time and the valves (normal Honeywell 2-port) were less
than £20 each during a clearance at B&Q.

All the valve
limit switches are connected together, so any open valve energises the
boiler.

Ah, all self powered and wireless then, or do you actually have to
have more complexity than a straight TRV?

The valves are bunched together at the manifold points, so junction box
to valve wiring 2' max. The wiring for the stats is just alarm cable,
easy to run along edges and so on, with no great disruption (that's why
I chose to use 12V).

The valves waste very little energy, they are rated at only 6W each and
are only energised when heat is required, so unlikely to be totally
wasted energy anyway - it's a tiny bit more heat ending up in the house.

Ok.

I had TRVs originally and making each room its own zone is far more
flexible.

By flexible I'm not sure how much more flexible you need other than to
have each room set at whatever temperature you like independently of
any other?

Well, the bathroom and living room are set to heat up earlier than the
rest of the house during the week, for me getting up and going to work
early. The bathroom is also heated for part of the evening, but not
during the day or the rest of the night and it shuts off well before the
rest of the rooms. The kids bedrooms are heated in the evenings, as they
spend time playing or programming there, but not in the day, except at
the weekends. The conservatory is heated in the evenings, as we eat
there and and at the weekends, as our middle son has his computer there.
Kids bedrooms and conservatory go off before the living room, because we
stay up a lot later than them. Our bedroom is heated during the day, as
my wife is ill and spends a lot of time lying down there, but dressed
and not actually in bed. When the system was originally put in, it was
used to keep the boxroom warm enough for our first son as a baby and
later to do the same with the front bedroom for both of our younger
children.

Basically allowing each room to be heated at a time when it is useful,
rather than all rooms being heated just for the sake of one.

eg. I set each room up for her about 5 years ago and she's not asked
me or changed them herself ever since?

I'm not saying that having ultimate control isn't a 'nice / good
idea', just that I question how many people would ever make full /
regular use of it or miss the 'flexibility' over straight TRV's?

And how much energy is used heating all the rooms, even those that
aren't going to be used really for most of the day, while trying to heat
a particular one or two that are?

SteveW

On 25/10/2019 23:14, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 09:17:52 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

Nope, because as soon as the timer calls for central heating the
boiler and pump are turned on?

Then the water in the pipes/bypass gets hot the boiler switches off,
then the pipes/bypass cool down and the boiler switches on.
Repeat wasting fuel and wearing the system out.

Do this on warm days when no heat is needed too.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
No! My ignorance is almost immaculate. It's not just that I'd never
heard of the Ideal Mexico. When I Googled for it I fully expected to
see results from local waxing centres.


It's a big metal lump that could absorb the excess heat without a pump
overrun and a bypass.

My original boiler was a BE RS Potterton Kingfisher. Big cast iron lump.
If that was switched off by the timer etc when at full belt - so also
switching off the pump - it would make some rather nasty noises. So
designed and built a pump over-run, which sorted it.

--
*Snowmen fall from Heaven unassembled*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 23:54:32 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 25/10/2019 23:09, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 19:19:26 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

On 24/10/2019 01:14, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:10:17 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Yup. ;-(

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.

Yup. So, more complexity than TRV / no room stat arrangement and
energy wasted on the valves, if electric?

Hardly complex.

We will see.

Each timer/stat simply switches a valve.

So, extra timer/stats and special valves. How many parts in each
compared with a wax pellet type TRV?

Yes, extra timer/stats and valves. The timer/stats were £14 each at
Maplin at the time and the valves (normal Honeywell 2-port) were less
than £20 each during a clearance at B&Q.

So, not only 'more complex' by any normal persons definition of the
installation but more expensive?

All the valve
limit switches are connected together, so any open valve energises the
boiler.

Ah, all self powered and wireless then, or do you actually have to
have more complexity than a straight TRV?

The valves are bunched together at the manifold points, so junction box
to valve wiring 2' max.

These are the valves you wouldn't even need in a basic TRV solution?

The wiring for the stats is just alarm cable,
easy to run along edges and so on, with no great disruption (that's why
I chose to use 12V).

Lovely, cables running along skirting boards and architraves etc. Very
'pretty' I'm sure. Cable you wouldn't need to run all over the house
with conventional TRV's.

The valves waste very little energy, they are rated at only 6W each and
are only energised when heat is required, so unlikely to be totally
wasted energy anyway - it's a tiny bit more heat ending up in the house.

Ok.

I had TRVs originally and making each room its own zone is far more
flexible.

By flexible I'm not sure how much more flexible you need other than to
have each room set at whatever temperature you like independently of
any other?

Well, the bathroom and living room are set to heat up earlier than the
rest of the house during the week, for me getting up and going to work
early.

Have you ever been camping? ;-)

The bathroom is also heated for part of the evening, but not
during the day or the rest of the night and it shuts off well before the
rest of the rooms.

Is all this up and down temperature a good idea, especially in a well
insulated house?

The kids bedrooms are heated in the evenings, as they
spend time playing or programming there,

[1]

but not in the day, except at
the weekends.

To get them outdoors in the fresh air right. ;-)

The conservatory is heated in the evenings, as we eat
there and and at the weekends, as our middle son has his computer there.

Is it cooled in the summer, given you are obviously keen on fine
temperature control across the whole house?

Kids bedrooms and conservatory go off before the living room, because we
stay up a lot later than them. Our bedroom is heated during the day, as
my wife is ill and spends a lot of time lying down there, but dressed
and not actually in bed. When the system was originally put in, it was
used to keep the boxroom warm enough for our first son as a baby and
later to do the same with the front bedroom for both of our younger
children.

Would it be better to just have blown hot air and occupancy sensors as
it's seems that's close to what you have in any case?

Basically allowing each room to be heated at a time when it is useful,
rather than all rooms being heated just for the sake of one.

Depending if you aren't going for the idea of it being better to keep
the whole house at some levelish temperature?

eg. I set each room up for her about 5 years ago and she's not asked
me or changed them herself ever since?

I'm not saying that having ultimate control isn't a 'nice / good
idea', just that I question how many people would ever make full /
regular use of it or miss the 'flexibility' over straight TRV's?

And how much energy is used heating all the rooms, even those that
aren't going to be used really for most of the day, while trying to heat
a particular one or two that are?

I'd say very little (as they are generally set at a lower temp) and if
the house is well insulated, retain that heat well as well.

eg. After setting up our neighbours TRV's for her, she or no visitor
has even mentioned that the temperature wasn't perfectly acceptable (I
asked).

And this is accepting that environmental temperature is often a fairly
personal thing.

The Mrs has always been hot, often not needing a coat when most are
wearing one but since / whilst still going though the change, has
temperature fluctuations going all over the place. The room might be a
constant 20 degrees but she will be cardi on, cardi off, fan flapping,
'are you hot or is it me (flapping her fan)', 'are you cold or is it
me' and all the time it's been 20 Deg and I've been sitting there
'just comfortable'.

But then I can seem to 'tolerate' (put up with?) a greater range of
temperatures than her. This may be from many hours on motorcycles when
you rarely have an optimum temperature and have to just deal with
sometimes being freezing cold or boiling hot.

So, have a room at 20 DegC and 5 people and you are bound to have some
that are too hot and others that are too cold but it's for *them* to
deal with it accordingly with their clothing.

Central heating often seems to be used like people did when they first
got colour televisions. EG, they would turn the colour right up to
prove the point. I've been to many houses where the temperature is way
too hot (for me even) and everyone is walking about dressed like they
were on holiday in Spain. Then when they go outside they are 'freezing
cold'.

Cheers, T i m

[1] Programming the central heating no doubt! ;-)

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 09:18:09 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 25/10/2019 23:14, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 09:17:52 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

Nope, because as soon as the timer calls for central heating the
boiler and pump are turned on?

Then the water in the pipes/bypass gets hot the boiler switches off,
then the pipes/bypass cool down and the boiler switches on.

Yup.

Repeat wasting fuel and wearing the system out.

So, they aren't asking you to pay for it and it's been pretty trouble
free for 40+ years so ... ?

Do this on warm days when no heat is needed too.

Except the chances are the duty cycle will be very long and hot water
is needed on warm days in any case.

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 26 Oct 2019 11:52:05 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
ARW wrote:
No! My ignorance is almost immaculate. It's not just that I'd never
heard of the Ideal Mexico. When I Googled for it I fully expected to
see results from local waxing centres.


It's a big metal lump that could absorb the excess heat without a pump
overrun and a bypass.

My original boiler was a BE RS Potterton Kingfisher. Big cast iron lump.
If that was switched off by the timer etc when at full belt - so also
switching off the pump - it would make some rather nasty noises. So
designed and built a pump over-run, which sorted it.

The boiler I initially installed in here ... then took out before
actually using it (and installed in my Uncles house) was a 'Radiation
Fuelsaver' (I think, from memory) which was a low capacity balanced
flue wall mounted jobby with a copper heat exchanger. I did the same
as you and powered the pump via a octal based delay relay, giving the
system some over-run to stop the boiler 'kettling' etc.

It worked fine for years.

Cheers, T i m

dennis@home wrote:

On 25/10/2019 23:14, T i m wrote:
On Fri, 25 Oct 2019 09:17:52 +0100, alan_m
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

Nope, because as soon as the timer calls for central heating the
boiler and pump are turned on?

Then the water in the pipes/bypass gets hot the boiler switches off,
then the pipes/bypass cool down and the boiler switches on.
Repeat wasting fuel and wearing the system out.

Do this on warm days when no heat is needed too.

Between November and March there are *never* days warm enough for me not
to want the heating on. And they are pretty rare for another four
months, sufficiently so that operating the CH off switch occasionally is
not a burden. My only problem with TRVs is that they represent the
room temperature less well than thermostats with varying outside
temperatures (unless perhaps you get the 'remote' ones) so need
occasional adjustment. But I think I'd be doing that with room
thermostats too, perhaps less often.

--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Roger Hayter wrote:
Between November and March there are *never* days warm enough for me not
to want the heating on. And they are pretty rare for another four
months, sufficiently so that operating the CH off switch occasionally is
not a burden. My only problem with TRVs is that they represent the
room temperature less well than thermostats with varying outside
temperatures (unless perhaps you get the 'remote' ones) so need
occasional adjustment. But I think I'd be doing that with room
thermostats too, perhaps less often.

Just how well TRVs work depends on lots of things. If they are really bad
in one particular room, chances are there's a big differential in
temperature in that room too.

FWIW, I find fitting them horizontally tends to help a bit. Slightly
further away from the rad itself. But more likely to get bashed by things.

--
*I want it all and I want it delivered

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.