On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:43:00 +0100, Robin wrote:

snip

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

It seems to me an old CH system that requires at least one radiator
without a TRV is not particularly funny - unlike, say, a know-it-all who
has never heard of such systems (albeit the latter may of course really
be an occasion for regret, especially if it arises from a traumatic
brain injury caused by DIY).

What?

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:54:24 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:39:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

TRVs are noisy when not fully open

'Some' TRV's might be noisy, these ones seem silent.

and don't regulate the temperature
properly.

'Some' TRV's might not, these seem, to work as hoped, still. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:40:06 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

8

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.


A TVR can only change the upper temp of the room.

'Moderate' but that's the whole point isn't it. ;-)

It can't make the boiler fire if the room gets too cold like a
thermostat can.

Unless its installed in a cr@p system that is always circulating hot water.

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.


This should be funny ...

If you say so.

No, it was funny as expected ... but thanks for playing. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 23/10/2019 17:47, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:43:00 +0100, Robin wrote:

snip

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

It seems to me an old CH system that requires at least one radiator
without a TRV is not particularly funny - unlike, say, a know-it-all who
has never heard of such systems (albeit the latter may of course really
be an occasion for regret, especially if it arises from a traumatic
brain injury caused by DIY).

What?


You want more? Seriously?

OK, then since you ask so nicely:

1. The boiler requires (in the absence of an internal or external
bypass) at least one radiator without TRV.

2. The temperature in the room with that radiator (or those radiators)
cannot be managed (to use your term) by TRVs.

3. The temperature in said room can be managed with a thermostat (which
controls the "call for heat").



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Robin wrote:
1. The boiler requires (in the absence of an internal or external
bypass) at least one radiator without TRV.

Towel rail in the bathroom?

2. The temperature in the room with that radiator (or those radiators)
cannot be managed (to use your term) by TRVs.

A towel rail with towels doesn't heat the room by much.

3. The temperature in said room can be managed with a thermostat (which
controls the "call for heat").

--
*If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

charles wrote:

no, any sensible boiler will shut down if heat is not removed from
the circulating water

if it doesn't it'll soon boil over into the F&E tank

On 23/10/2019 18:35, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Robin wrote:
1. The boiler requires (in the absence of an internal or external
bypass) at least one radiator without TRV.

Towel rail in the bathroom?

2. The temperature in the room with that radiator (or those radiators)
cannot be managed (to use your term) by TRVs.

A towel rail with towels doesn't heat the room by much.

3. The temperature in said room can be managed with a thermostat (which
controls the "call for heat").


Fine *if* the system has a heated towel rail installed separate from the
bathroom radiator. I've not seen a lot of those on older systems.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:48 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 23/10/2019 17:47, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:43:00 +0100, Robin wrote:

snip

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

It seems to me an old CH system that requires at least one radiator
without a TRV is not particularly funny - unlike, say, a know-it-all who
has never heard of such systems (albeit the latter may of course really
be an occasion for regret, especially if it arises from a traumatic
brain injury caused by DIY).

What?


You want more? Seriously?

I'd like something coherent that wasn't already pretty obvious, yes.

OK, then since you ask so nicely:

1. The boiler requires (in the absence of an internal or external
bypass) at least one radiator without TRV.

Yes, and?

2. The temperature in the room with that radiator (or those radiators)
cannot be managed (to use your term) by TRVs.

No, and?

3. The temperature in said room can be managed with a thermostat (which
controls the "call for heat").

It can, yes, and?

Sorry, I thought you were going to explain that you had an actual
point?

It's like you have just researched it yourself and found some nooby
d-i-y site that warns about not providing some form of bypass?

Luckily, others have already explained it all to you ...and in this
(and my Mums case) it's provided by a towel rail.


Cheers, T i m

On 23/10/2019 21:29, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 18:07:48 +0100, Robin wrote:

On 23/10/2019 17:47, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:43:00 +0100, Robin wrote:

snip

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

It seems to me an old CH system that requires at least one radiator
without a TRV is not particularly funny - unlike, say, a know-it-all who
has never heard of such systems (albeit the latter may of course really
be an occasion for regret, especially if it arises from a traumatic
brain injury caused by DIY).

What?


You want more? Seriously?

I'd like something coherent that wasn't already pretty obvious, yes.

OK, then since you ask so nicely:

1. The boiler requires (in the absence of an internal or external
bypass) at least one radiator without TRV.

Yes, and?

2. The temperature in the room with that radiator (or those radiators)
cannot be managed (to use your term) by TRVs.

No, and?

3. The temperature in said room can be managed with a thermostat (which
controls the "call for heat").

It can, yes, and?

Sorry, I thought you were going to explain that you had an actual
point?

It's like you have just researched it yourself and found some nooby
d-i-y site that warns about not providing some form of bypass?

Luckily, others have already explained it all to you ...and in this
(and my Mums case) it's provided by a towel rail.



And if there's no towel rail plumbed separate from the bathroom radiator?

Anyhow, let's get back to your original question:

"Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room?"

Do you understand how in my example the stat is functioning in a
different way from a TRC to control the room's temperature?

If you saw such a system would you tell the owner they /must/ rip out
the stat, fit TRVs and also fit a bypass heated towel rail because that
is the only right way?









--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 23/10/2019 10:20, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 09:55:24 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

snip

Mad setup to have no room stat.

There are effectively stats in every room?

Its a rubbish system.

shrug

Even one with a room stat is pretty well rubbish.

Ok ...

For room stats to work there has to be a pump running and the boiler
running.

True.

If neither is true you won't get any heat even if its icing in the rooms.

It is true.

If you set the pump and boiler to run all the time you are wasting gas
and electricity and wearing out the system when there is no need for heat.

Possibly but surely isn't that the owners choice? FWIW, 'the system'
is probably over 30 years old (maybe 40) and I don't believe has much
in the way of attention, servicing or repair?

My mates Valliant system is new by comparison and is about to have a
new gas valve and main PCB because of an F62 error.

Mums CH / HW system doesn't even have rad stat valves or a room stat
and the boiler was bought second hand probably 40 years ago and again,
hasn't 'cost' anything with engineer service visits in that entire
time.

At least with a room stat there is a bit of control as neither will be
on if the room with the stat is warm saving a fortune compared to the
cost of fitting it.

And if that room is 'warm enough' none of the other rooms get any
heat. Crazy.

I think proper controls should be mandated, ie. zones with stats and timers.

I think every room needs to be on a different zone with it's own stat
and valve whilst possible and wouldn't cost that much more to do at
installation, isn't something I understand is generally done, even in
2019.

That's exactly what we have (for the last 16-1/2 years) - although they
are combined timer/stats, so each room has its own temperature *and*
time settings.

And now with a modern boiler that can modulate down for low demand to
avoid excessive cycling.

If we can have the inside of a car at two different temperatures on
either side then a complete room should be very easy.

It is.

I went for battery powered timer/stats, switching 12V ac (provided by an
isolated safety transformer) and using relays to operate the mains
powered valves. That way I could use thin alarm cable for the
timer/stats and so run it up doorframes or the like until such time as
each room is re-decorated and I can sink in a box and trunking. It also
meant that we could have one in the bathroom.

The hot water cylinder has one end of a mains, dual central heating
timer and a cylinder stat operating its valve and the other end
operating a relay to switch on the immersion heater - allowing us to use
the boiler to provide hot water normally, but boost with both boiler and
immersion if required. Also letting us use the immersion timed if we had
the central heating out of action for any reason.

SteveW

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:39:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 00:22:17 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

It's a Y plan system but with no room stat, relying on thermostatic
rad valves and the boiler stat for CH. Simple and seems to work fairly
well, all be it not very 'adjustable' (but she rarely has the need to
adjust it it seems).

One way to stop the Mrs fiddling with the room stat is to not have
one. ;-)

We don't have one either, but then we don't have CH ...



Mad setup to have no room stat.

There are effectively stats in every room?

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.

SteveW

On 23/10/2019 22:10, Steve Walker wrote:
snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.


Do you happen to know of a way to have a timer and stat per room but
adjust centrally the temperatures - or even just adjust them all up or
down by the same amount? I ask as IMLE one advantage of TRVs and a
single room stat is that if the stat is set lower than usual then (with
a reasonably balanced system) the rooms with the TRVs also stabilise at
a lower temperature than the TRVs would maintain. It's useful for
people who have days when they want the house warm and days when they
want to the house very warm.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 23/10/2019 22:42, Robin wrote:
On 23/10/2019 22:10, Steve Walker wrote:
snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is
too cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other
rooms are too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same
times of day.

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well
as temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler
and pump when there is no demand.


Do you happen to know of a way to have a timer and stat per room but
adjust centrally the temperatures - or even just adjust them all up or
down by the same amount?Â* I ask as IMLE one advantage of TRVs and a
single room stat is that if the stat is set lower than usual then (with
a reasonably balanced system) the rooms with the TRVs also stabilise at
a lower temperature than the TRVs would maintain.Â* It's useful for
people who have days when they want the house warm and days when they
want to the house very warm.

Yes and no. I have actually been thinking of replacing all ours with
ethernet equipped Arduinos (not a separate shield) with touch screens
and 1-wire temperature sensors.

Another couple of Arduinos to operate the relay boxes upstairs and
downstairs and probably another one as central controller/webserver.

The idea being that settings, boost, etc. for any room could be brought
up in any other room or PC or phone.

I was also planning wi-fi alarm clocks, so the bathroom and living room
would adjust to come on before the alarms go off rather than at a fixed
time.

Whether I'll actually get around to it I don't know - although I have
just bought a touch-screen to experiment with one of the Arduinos that I
already have.

SteveW

On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:10:17 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Yup. ;-(

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.

Yup. So, more complexity than TRV / no room stat arrangement and
energy wasted on the valves, if electric?

Cheers, T i m

On 23/10/2019 23:35, Steve Walker wrote:
On 23/10/2019 22:42, Robin wrote:
snip
Do you happen to know of a way to have a timer and stat per room but
adjust centrally the temperatures - or even just adjust them all up or
down by the same amount?Â* I ask as IMLE one advantage of TRVs and a
single room stat is that if the stat is set lower than usual then
(with a reasonably balanced system) the rooms with the TRVs also
stabilise at a lower temperature than the TRVs would maintain.Â* It's
useful for people who have days when they want the house warm and days
when they want to the house very warm.

Yes and no. I have actually been thinking of replacing all ours with
ethernet equipped Arduinos (not a separate shield) with touch screens
and 1-wire temperature sensors.

Another couple of Arduinos to operate the relay boxes upstairs and
downstairs and probably another one as central controller/webserver.

The idea being that settings, boost, etc. for any room could be brought
up in any other room or PC or phone.



Thanks. Sounds ideal. But my learning curve would very probably exceed
my life expectancy

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 14:43:17 UTC+1, Robin wrote:
On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:39:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 00:22:17 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

It's a Y plan system but with no room stat, relying on thermostatic
rad valves and the boiler stat for CH. Simple and seems to work fairly
well, all be it not very 'adjustable' (but she rarely has the need to
adjust it it seems).

One way to stop the Mrs fiddling with the room stat is to not have
one. ;-)

We don't have one either, but then we don't have CH ...



Mad setup to have no room stat.

There are effectively stats in every room?

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

It seems to me an old CH system that requires at least one radiator
without a TRV is not particularly funny - unlike, say, a know-it-all who
has never heard of such systems (albeit the latter may of course really
be an occasion for regret, especially if it arises from a traumatic
brain injury caused by DIY).


But would it be a right or left brain injury :-}

On 23/10/2019 17:54, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:54:24 +0100, Max Demian
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:39:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

TRVs are noisy when not fully open

'Some' TRV's might be noisy, these ones seem silent.

and don't regulate the temperature
properly.

'Some' TRV's might not, these seem, to work as hoped, still. ;-)

Cheers, T i m


If they are noisy the pump is probably set too high.

On 23/10/2019 16:29, charles wrote:
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

8

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.


A TVR can only change the upper temp of the room. It can't make the
boiler fire if the room gets too cold like a thermostat can. Unless its
installed in a cr@p system that is always circulating hot water.

no, any sensible boiler will shut down if heat is not removed from
thecirculating water


Rubbish, they will have to keep cycling to heat the water or no heat
will ever be put into the rooms even if the TRVs are open.

A room stat may reduce this but it still happens.

A properly zoned system will only call for heat if one of the zones
requires it.
This is usually done by end switches on the valves wired as an "OR" gate.

On 23/10/2019 18:00, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:40:06 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

8

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.


A TVR can only change the upper temp of the room.

'Moderate' but that's the whole point isn't it. ;-)

It can't make the boiler fire if the room gets too cold like a
thermostat can.

Unless its installed in a cr@p system that is always circulating hot water.

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.

Functional doesn't mean it isn't cr@p.

You could wire your house lights in bell wire and it would be functional
and cr@p.



This should be funny ...

If you say so.

No, it was funny as expected ... but thanks for playing. ;-)

The only things funny here are your replies and not funny ha ha.

On 23/10/2019 22:42, Robin wrote:
On 23/10/2019 22:10, Steve Walker wrote:
snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is
too cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other
rooms are too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same
times of day.

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well
as temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler
and pump when there is no demand.


Do you happen to know of a way to have a timer and stat per room but
adjust centrally the temperatures - or even just adjust them all up or
down by the same amount?Â* I ask as IMLE one advantage of TRVs and a
single room stat is that if the stat is set lower than usual then (with
a reasonably balanced system) the rooms with the TRVs also stabilise at
a lower temperature than the TRVs would maintain.Â* It's useful for
people who have days when they want the house warm and days when they
want to the house very warm.


Hive, but its expensive. Something like £100 for the stat and boiler
switch and £40 per room for the replacement "TRV". There are others.
I don't know if you need the stat but you need the hub and its the
cheapest way to get the hub and boiler switch installed when there are
specials available, like now you can get a hive stat, hub, boiler switch
and a "free" echo dot for £99 installed if you can sign up for BG rewards.


Any other IOT enabled stat if its zoned.

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:40:26 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

snip

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.

Functional doesn't mean it isn't cr@p.

You could wire your house lights in bell wire and it would be functional
and cr@p.

If it was 'utility' (where aesthetics didn't come into it) and
functional (where that covered all practical issues covered by the
term 'functional'), why would it be cr@p?

What facets are you also considering outside of functional?

Cheers, T i m

On 24/10/2019 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:40:26 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

snip

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.

Functional doesn't mean it isn't cr@p.

You could wire your house lights in bell wire and it would be functional
and cr@p.

If it was 'utility' (where aesthetics didn't come into it) and
functional (where that covered all practical issues covered by the
term 'functional'), why would it be cr@p?

What facets are you also considering outside of functional?

Cheers, T i m


Well its not functional is it!
Its also not efficient!

You carry on arguing but you are still wrong.

I don't know who you are going to argue with though, maybe your other
half of a brain?

On Thursday, 24 October 2019 14:40:30 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 23/10/2019 18:00, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 15:40:06 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

8

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.


A TVR can only change the upper temp of the room.

'Moderate' but that's the whole point isn't it. ;-)

It can't make the boiler fire if the room gets too cold like a
thermostat can.

Unless its installed in a cr@p system that is always circulating hot water.

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.

Functional doesn't mean it isn't cr@p.

You could wire your house lights in bell wire and it would be functional
and cr@p.

bellwire lighting could be functional, safe and not crap.


This should be funny ...

If you say so.

No, it was funny as expected ... but thanks for playing. ;-)

The only things funny here are your replies and not funny ha ha.

some things aren't worth replying to.


NT

On Thursday, 24 October 2019 16:44:29 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/10/2019 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:40:26 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.

Functional doesn't mean it isn't cr@p.

You could wire your house lights in bell wire and it would be functional
and cr@p.

If it was 'utility' (where aesthetics didn't come into it) and
functional (where that covered all practical issues covered by the
term 'functional'), why would it be cr@p?

What facets are you also considering outside of functional?

Cheers, T i m

It could be either. I've seen bellwire fed lights in a pub with the wire draped down the wall and an uninsulated chocblock about 3' from the ground. That's crap. Or the bellwire could be all out of reach where it doesn't need double insulation & is not in any way crap.


Well its not functional is it!
Its also not efficient!

bellwire is both

You carry on arguing but you are still wrong.

I don't know who you are going to argue with though, maybe your other
half of a brain?

On 24/10/2019 01:14, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 22:10:17 +0100, Steve Walker
wrote:

snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Yup. ;-(

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.

Yup. So, more complexity than TRV / no room stat arrangement and
energy wasted on the valves, if electric?

Hardly complex. Each timer/stat simply switches a valve. All the valve
limit switches are connected together, so any open valve energises the
boiler.

The valves waste very little energy, they are rated at only 6W each and
are only energised when heat is required, so unlikely to be totally
wasted energy anyway - it's a tiny bit more heat ending up in the house.

I had TRVs originally and making each room its own zone is far more
flexible.

SteveW

On 23/10/2019 18:07, Robin wrote:
On 23/10/2019 17:47, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 14:43:00 +0100, Robin wrote:

snip

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

It seems to me an old CH system that requires at least one radiator
without a TRV is not particularly funny - unlike, say, a know-it-all who
has never heard of such systems (albeit the latter may of course really
be an occasion for regret, especially if it arises from a traumatic
brain injury caused by DIY).

What?


You want more? Seriously?

OK, then since you ask so nicely:

1.Â*Â*Â* The boiler requires (in the absence of an internal or external
bypass) at least one radiator without TRV.

2.Â*Â*Â* The temperature in the room with that radiator (or those
radiators) cannot be managed (to use your term) by TRVs.

3.Â*Â*Â* The temperature in said room can be managed with a thermostat
(which controls the "call for heat").




Remember the Ideal Mexico?

That had no pump over run and did not need a bypass:-)




--
Adam

On 23/10/2019 22:10, Steve Walker wrote:
On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:39:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 00:22:17 UTC+1, T i mÂ* wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

It's a Y plan system but with no room stat, relying on thermostatic
rad valves and the boiler stat for CH. Simple and seems to work
fairly
well, all be it not very 'adjustable' (but she rarely has the need to
adjust it it seems).

One way to stop the Mrs fiddling with the room stat is to not have
one. ;-)

We don't have one either, but then we don't have CH ...



Mad setup to have no room stat.

There are effectively stats in every room?

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over and
over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is too
cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other rooms are
too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same times of day.

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well as
temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler and
pump when there is no demand.


Of course any cat owner will tell you that this does not matter as all
doors must be left open at all times so all the rooms are the same
temperatu-)


--
Adam

On Thursday, 24 October 2019 19:28:10 UTC+1, ARW wrote:
Of course any cat owner will tell you that this does not matter as all
doors must be left open at all times so all the rooms are the same
temperatu-)

No, the doors must be left open at all times so the cat can walk from a warm room to a cold room because he's too hot, then ask you to turn the heating up in the cold room until it's warmer than the warm room...

Owain

On 24/10/2019 14:46, dennis@home wrote:
On 23/10/2019 22:42, Robin wrote:
On 23/10/2019 22:10, Steve Walker wrote:
snip

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is
too cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other
rooms are too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same
times of day.

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well
as temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down
boiler and pump when there is no demand.


Do you happen to know of a way to have a timer and stat per room but
adjust centrally the temperatures - or even just adjust them all up or
down by the same amount?Â* I ask as IMLE one advantage of TRVs and a
single room stat is that if the stat is set lower than usual then
(with a reasonably balanced system) the rooms with the TRVs also
stabilise at a lower temperature than the TRVs would maintain.Â* It's
useful for people who have days when they want the house warm and days
when they want to the house very warm.


Hive, but its expensive. Something like £100 for the stat and boiler
switch and £40 per room for the replacement "TRV". There are others.
I don't know if you need the stat but you need the hub and its the
cheapest way to get the hub and boiler switch installed when there are
specials available, like now you can get a hive stat, hub, boiler switch
and a "free" echo dot for £99 installed if you can sign up for BG rewards.

I've not had hands on a Hive system with radiator valves but from the
manuals and comments online I thought one could only adjust them one by
one. What I want - and should have made clearer - is the means to
adjust several at once. Ideally several that are not all set at the
same temperature but move up and down in step. If it means going
through several it won't get done.

The need to replace batteries every so often also militates against them
for the user I have in mind. (The more so if, as some users seem to
find, 2 years from one set of batteries is optimistic.)



--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 24/10/2019 20:21, Robin wrote:

I've not had hands on a Hive system with radiator valves but from the
manuals and comments online I thought one could only adjust them one by
one.Â* What I want - and should have made clearer - is the means to
adjust several at once.Â* Ideally several that are not all set at the
same temperature but move up and down in step.Â* If it means going
through several it won't get done.

Alexa routines?

On 24/10/2019 19:25, ARW wrote:


Remember the Ideal Mexico?


No! My ignorance is almost immaculate. It's not just that I'd never
heard of the Ideal Mexico. When I Googled for it I fully expected to
see results from local waxing centres.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 24/10/2019 19:28, ARW wrote:
On 23/10/2019 22:10, Steve Walker wrote:
On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 23 Oct 2019 03:39:58 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, 23 October 2019 00:22:17 UTC+1, T i mÂ* wrote:
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 10:31:14 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:

snip

It's a Y plan system but with no room stat, relying on thermostatic
rad valves and the boiler stat for CH. Simple and seems to work
fairly
well, all be it not very 'adjustable' (but she rarely has the
need to
adjust it it seems).

One way to stop the Mrs fiddling with the room stat is to not have
one. ;-)

We don't have one either, but then we don't have CH ...



Mad setup to have no room stat.

There are effectively stats in every room?

no, TRVs are not equivalent to room stats. We must have been over
and over that on here.

You might have been but I haven't.

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

TRVs and single room stat only run the system while that one room is
too cold. Once it heats up, the whole system stops, even if other
rooms are too cold. The whole system only runs or stops at the same
times of day.

Timer/stat per room allows each room to have different times as well
as temperatures, runs while any room is too cold and shuts down boiler
and pump when there is no demand.


Of course any cat owner will tell you that this does not matter as all
doors must be left open at all times so all the rooms are the same
temperatu-)

We have three. They are not normally allowed upstairs and only the
kitten is fast enough to dive through when someone goes in or out.

SteveW

On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:49:55 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, 24 October 2019 16:44:29 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/10/2019 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:40:26 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.

Functional doesn't mean it isn't cr@p.

You could wire your house lights in bell wire and it would be functional
and cr@p.

If it was 'utility' (where aesthetics didn't come into it) and
functional (where that covered all practical issues covered by the
term 'functional'), why would it be cr@p?

What facets are you also considering outside of functional?

Cheers, T i m

It could be either. I've seen bellwire fed lights in a pub with the wire draped down the wall and an uninsulated chocblock about 3' from the ground. That's crap. Or the bellwire could be all out of reach where it doesn't need double insulation & is not in any way crap.

Quite. Not ideal, not to code but could easily be perfectly functional
and (therefore) not cr@p as a means to an end.


Well its not functional is it!
Its also not efficient!

bellwire is both

Again, of course it is.

You carry on arguing but you are still wrong.

I don't know who you are going to argue with though, maybe your other
half of a brain?

The problem with Dennis is he is a left brainer and so has to do, and
can only consider, everything strictly 'by the book', even when that
isn't part of the question.

Cheers, T i m

On 23/10/2019 13:37, Andrew wrote:

Â*And the more hot air they generate the more they collect in
subsidies. (DUP and NI Woodchip boilers).

While one incompetent person may have drafted the legislation an
incompetent assembly passed it without realising what they had signed up to.


--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

On a cold frosty morning and the temperature is low a room thermostat
can tell the boiler and the pump to switch on.



--
mailto : news {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

alan_m wrote:

On 23/10/2019 13:37, Andrew wrote:

And the more hot air they generate the more they collect in
subsidies. (DUP and NI Woodchip boilers).

While one incompetent person may have drafted the legislation an
incompetent assembly passed it without realising what they had signed up to.

That is, of course, the more charitable explanation. One has, then, to
assume that the fact that many of the beneficiaries were DUP supporters
and patrons was pure coincidence.

--

Roger Hayter

alan_m wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

On a cold frosty morning and the temperature is low a room thermostat
can tell the boiler and the pump to switch on.

That is to assume that there is any point in the boiler being off in the
heating season.

--

Roger Hayter

On Thursday, 24 October 2019 23:41:51 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 10:49:55 -0700 (PDT), tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 24 October 2019 16:44:29 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 24/10/2019 16:01, T i m wrote:
On Thu, 24 Oct 2019 14:40:26 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

By cr@p you mean it's actually functional and you don't have an answer
to my question.

Functional doesn't mean it isn't cr@p.

You could wire your house lights in bell wire and it would be functional
and cr@p.

If it was 'utility' (where aesthetics didn't come into it) and
functional (where that covered all practical issues covered by the
term 'functional'), why would it be cr@p?

What facets are you also considering outside of functional?

Cheers, T i m

It could be either. I've seen bellwire fed lights in a pub with the wire draped down the wall and an uninsulated chocblock about 3' from the ground.. That's crap. Or the bellwire could be all out of reach where it doesn't need double insulation & is not in any way crap.

Quite. Not ideal, not to code but could easily be perfectly functional
and (therefore) not cr@p as a means to an end.


Well its not functional is it!
Its also not efficient!

bellwire is both

Again, of course it is.

5A circuits became the norm in days of filament lamps. One 5A circuit = 1250W, enough to run a flat's filament lighting. Medium houses had 2 such circuits.

Now with LEDs we don't need anywhere near that. 240W of LEDs is equivalent to a bit under 2kW of filament light, and efficacy improvements are driving that figure up over time. Since pretty much every house now has 2 or more lighting circuits, that's around 4kW, more than enough.


NT

On 25/10/2019 09:33, Roger Hayter wrote:
alan_m wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

On a cold frosty morning and the temperature is low a room thermostat
can tell the boiler and the pump to switch on.

That is to assume that there is any point in the boiler being off in the
heating season.


If everything is up to temperature it stops the boiler cycling which
saves fuel and wear.

You know it makes sense.

dennis@home wrote:

On 25/10/2019 09:33, Roger Hayter wrote:
alan_m wrote:

On 23/10/2019 14:24, T i m wrote:

Ignoring the binary / analogue action, what is the (functional /
thermal control) differences between a thermostatic rad valve and a
room stat / room? And we are only talking about the ability to manage
the temperature in the room, nothing else / irreverent thanks.

This should be funny ...

On a cold frosty morning and the TRV is fully open it cannot tell the
boiler and the pump to switch on to provide heat. The room remains cold.

On a cold frosty morning and the temperature is low a room thermostat
can tell the boiler and the pump to switch on.

That is to assume that there is any point in the boiler being off in the
heating season.


If everything is up to temperature it stops the boiler cycling which
saves fuel and wear.

You know it makes sense.

So does sitting at home in your overcoat all day to save the climate -
but I don't do it.

--

Roger Hayter