On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 03:16:40 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

The diode that produces the light.

Talking of light, is still dark outside in Australia at 03:16 am, you
abnormal senile idiot who gets up every night between 1 and 4 am, just so he
can continue with his pathological trolling without too long a break!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

"NY" wrote in message
...
"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

True, but it's the LEDs themselves that are the warmest, and also the
most susceptible to heat.

But if you feel a Philips Hue bulb which is the size of an old tungsten
100W bulb, the part that gives off light (presumably where the LEDs are)
is cool.

Mine isnt, its warmer than me.

It is the neck, near the fitting, which gets hot - and I presume that's
where the PSU is.

Likewise for GU10 bulbs (Philips Hue or ordinary non-dimmable LED) the
front and conical sides don't get hot, whereas the neck near the fitting
gets hot.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert, another brain dead,
troll-feeding, seinile idiot, blathered:


Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

Yet another senile idiot who doesn't get what's going on here! BG

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:50:02 +0100, NY, the notorious, troll-feeding senile
idiot, blathered again:


But if you feel a Philips Hue bulb which is the size of an old tungsten 100W
bulb, the part that gives off light (presumably where the LEDs are) is cool.
It is the neck, near the fitting, which gets hot - and I presume that's
where the PSU is.

Likewise for GU10 bulbs (Philips Hue or ordinary non-dimmable LED) the front
and conical sides don't get hot, whereas the neck near the fitting gets hot.

So, for how long will you idiots still go on like that again? Until the
sociopathic attention whore is fed up with you again? Will you troll-feeding
senile idiots NEVER learn?

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 04:35:29 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


We already do and wear the lower efficiency.

Are "we" talking about your and his brain, you idiots?

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 05:12:47 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


But if you feel a Philips Hue bulb which is the size of an old tungsten
100W bulb, the part that gives off light (presumably where the LEDs are)
is cool.

Mine isnt, its warmer than me.

LOL! Auto-contradicting senile idiot! Let's all hope that you'll SOON reach
room temperature!

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 19:50:02 +0100, NY wrote:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

True, but it's the LEDs themselves that are the warmest, and also the most
susceptible to heat.

But if you feel a Philips Hue bulb which is the size of an old tungsten 100W
bulb, the part that gives off light (presumably where the LEDs are) is cool.
It is the neck, near the fitting, which gets hot - and I presume that's
where the PSU is.

Or where the heatsink from the LEDs is.

Likewise for GU10 bulbs (Philips Hue or ordinary non-dimmable LED) the front
and conical sides don't get hot, whereas the neck near the fitting gets hot.

On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 22:21:00 +0100, Colonel Edmund J. Burke wrote:

On 10/3/2019 6:49 AM, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:29:30 +0100, Commander Kinsey wrote:

Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?

I got useful answers from Quora:

"LEDs are ever more and more efficient. In the last 40 years, tremendous strides have been made. They generate heat because they are conducting electricity through semiconductors. Unlike metals which have very little resistance to electric currents, semiconductors offer more resistance. Not as much as true nonmetals, but still more than metals. It is the resistance of the semiconductor layers, both N and P, and the resistance of the junction itself, that generate the heat."

"Every electronic device is less than 100 percent efficient. On a low level, it is due to the law of probability, or as the physicists call it, entropy. The odds of all those electrons conveying their energy into photons is very low. Some are always making random transitions, generating heat instead of light."

I wish you'd make a "random transition" the **** outa here, limey asshole!

Learn to use a killfile.

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86 and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 03/10/2019 17:03, Max Demian wrote:

snip

You can have red, green and blue LEDs to make up white...

They make something which looks white for many or maybe most purposes,
but they don't make white. They don't make anything above blue, so no
violet, and nothing below 'normal' red, so no deep red, and there are
significant gaps between the colours.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 15:57:17 UTC+1, Peeler wrote:
On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 06:37:34 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when curremnt passes through it.

And will we ever make them more efficient?

Probably.

Trust that you senile ****** will be the first to take that
attention-starved ******'s latest bait! tsk

It's called education when student(s) ask me Qs I'm meant to answer them.
I'm so used to it, I sort of do it automatically.

Yesterday I was asked one Q about 4 times.

Student(s) :- Where do you keep the croc clips. ?
Me : I've hidden them in the draw labled croc clips (with a picture of a croc clip and a croc clip stuck to the draw handle.


Student :- What's the differnce between a 5mm LED and a 2mm LED
Me :- 2mm

I doubt you're the only one wanting that. When they become avaible you be able to buy them, but for now it seems the more effiecient something is the more it costs, so don't expect them to be on ebay 100 for £1 or whatever.




On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:38:56 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
That's different, that's asking for generating power from nothing. I just want something that changes electricity into light and nothing else. Or virtually nothing else, like 1% of it wasted. Current LEDs I'm told waste 60%.

On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 16:35:03 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

One obviously has inefficiencies or the perpetual motion machine would be
everywhere.

Brian

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86 and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you are not billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but my neighbour has an inductive load, so they even out. You don't get extra heat generated from a low power factor.

Well huge strides have been made already, so I guess more will happen later on.


On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 11:38:26 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

I doubt you're the only one wanting that. When they become avaible you be able to buy them, but for now it seems the more effiecient something is the more it costs, so don't expect them to be on ebay 100 for £1 or whatever.




On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:38:56 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
That's different, that's asking for generating power from nothing. I just want something that changes electricity into light and nothing else. Or virtually nothing else, like 1% of it wasted. Current LEDs I'm told waste 60%.

On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 16:35:03 +0100, Brian Gaff wrote:

One obviously has inefficiencies or the perpetual motion machine would be
everywhere.

Brian

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander KinseyÂ* wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials.Â* And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance?Â* It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically have a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make white.Â* Is
there a reason this can't be done?Â* An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors?Â* There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+W although you can generate while light from red, blue & green it is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.


Magenta Growlights that only have blue and red LEDs are also now fairly
common. No point in having any green since chlorophyll reflects it.

true handy for growing peppers or so I've heard.



--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 15:17:47 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials. And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance? It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically have a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make white. Is
there a reason this can't be done? An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors? There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+W although you can generate while light from red, blue & green it is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.


Magenta Growlights that only have blue and red LEDs are also now fairly
common. No point in having any green since chlorophyll reflects it.

true handy for growing peppers or so I've heard.

I found them good for recovering damaged plants my cats have broken, like spider plants which they love to sit on. They're also allegedly good for marijuana :-)

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86 and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W. Yes I know that's an absurdly high voltage, but I live opposite the substation so it's higher than the rest of the street, and they won't do anything about it. I consequently run my computer, lights, etc off a UPS, which automatically chops 10 or 20V off when needed.
It's the cool white, 9W version of this (not necessarily from this seller, but they look identical): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262915986742
They contain a pretty decent looking switched mode PSU, unlike some other bulbs I've seen which have a very simple capacitor dropper.
If any health and softy people want to be annoyed, then be aware that I don't earth them. A couple of them made a humming noise when I did. If I touch the metal casing of an unearthed unit, and rub my finger along it, I feel a slight vibration. I guess something is jumping across by induction.

On Friday, 4 October 2019 15:23:49 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 15:17:47 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials. And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance? It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically have a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make white. Is
there a reason this can't be done? An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors? There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+W although you can generate while light from red, blue & green it is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.


Magenta Growlights that only have blue and red LEDs are also now fairly
common. No point in having any green since chlorophyll reflects it.

true handy for growing peppers or so I've heard.

I found them good for recovering damaged plants my cats have broken, like spider plants which they love to sit on. They're also allegedly good for marijuana :-)

Not that I have heard they just don't have the intensity or the longer blue wavelenghs.

On Friday, 4 October 2019 15:32:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86 and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:24:12 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 15:23:49 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 15:17:47 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials. And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance? It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically have a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make white. Is
there a reason this can't be done? An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors? There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+W although you can generate while light from red, blue & green it is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.


Magenta Growlights that only have blue and red LEDs are also now fairly
common. No point in having any green since chlorophyll reflects it.

true handy for growing peppers or so I've heard.

I found them good for recovering damaged plants my cats have broken, like spider plants which they love to sit on. They're also allegedly good for marijuana :-)

Not that I have heard they just don't have the intensity or the longer blue wavelenghs.

Well I can confirm they resurrected several damaged houseplants (including spider plants and cactuses), which grew faster than they would have done on a windowledge, and plenty websites recommend them for marijuana growth.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:28:06 +0100, whisky-dave wrote:

On Friday, 4 October 2019 15:32:22 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86 and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of 1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.


I doubt that it's just the LED, you shouldn't include the PSU in such calculations especailly if running off mains AC, because you're including the LED+PSU so not really gettign any info about the actual LED.

Why should I not include the whole unit? Surely that's all that matters.

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 03:32:54 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


Trust that you senile ****** will be the first to take that
attention-starved ******'s latest bait! tsk

It's called education when student(s) ask me Qs

No, it's called TROLL-FEEDING, you demented senile idiot!

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 03:38:26 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:

I doubt you're the only one wanting that.

ALL he wants is for some senile idiot to come running along and feed him
every time and for as long as he wants to be fed, senile idiot!

On 04/10/2019 15:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander KinseyÂ* wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials.Â* And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance?Â* It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically have a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make white.Â* Is
there a reason this can't be done?Â* An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors?Â* There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+W although you can generate while light from red, blue & green it is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.

Why, as the white is really just blue doped with a fluorescent pigment,
and doesn't produce a continuous spectrum?

--
Max Demian

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:49:25 +0100, Max Demian wrote:

On 04/10/2019 15:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave
wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials. And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance? It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically have a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make white. Is
there a reason this can't be done? An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors? There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+W although you can generate while light from red, blue & green it is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.

Why, as the white is really just blue doped with a fluorescent pigment,
and doesn't produce a continuous spectrum?

I think the phosphor produces a wider spectrum than an LED? To make a nice white with just LEDs, perhaps we'd need several of them. Your eye might only pick up three wavelengths, but a lot of objects in the room may not reflect those specific three very well, so we need the inbetween ones aswell.

Max Demian wrote:

the white is really just blue doped with a fluorescent pigment, and
doesn't produce a continuous spectrum?

It's more continuous than separate R,G & B peaks, there's a blue peak
and then a broad green to red hump

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode#/media/File:White_LED.png

On 04/10/2019 16:49, Max Demian wrote:
On 04/10/2019 15:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin BrownÂ* wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander KinseyÂ* wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials.Â* And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance?Â* It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically
have a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make
white.Â* Is
there a reason this can't be done?Â* An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors?Â* There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+WÂ*Â* although you can generate while lightÂ* from red, blue & green
it is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.

Why, as the white is really just blue doped with a fluorescent pigment,
and doesn't produce a continuous spectrum?

Because the actual spectrum is broader


--
"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding".

Marshall McLuhan

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 08:24:12 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


I found them good for recovering damaged plants my cats have broken, like
spider plants which they love to sit on. They're also allegedly good
for marijuana :-)

Not that I have heard they just don't have the intensity or the longer blue wavelenghs.

You two subnormal driveling idiots really need to get a hotel room! tsk

On Fri, 4 Oct 2019 08:28:06 -0700 (PDT), whisky-depraved, the notorious,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blabbered again:


I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of
1.00, at 256V, 9.8W.

I doubt that it's

Do you, you endlessly driveling troll-feeding senile asshole?

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you are not
billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but my neighbour
has an inductive load, so they even out.

Most neighbours don't have much long term inductive load anymore.

You don't get extra heat generated from a low power factor.

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 04:17:46 +1000, AlexK, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:

FLUSH senile asshole's latest troll****

So WHAT makes you get out of bed and start trolling EVERY NIGHT between 1
and 4 am, you abnormal senile cretin? It IS your unbearable loneliness,
right, you cantankerous, abnormal senile pest?

--
Bod addressing abnormal senile quarreller Rot:
"Do you practice arguing with yourself in an empty room?"
MID:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of
1.00, at 256V, 9.8W. Yes I know that's an absurdly high voltage, but I
live opposite the substation so it's higher than the rest of the street,
and they won't do anything about it. I consequently run my computer,
lights, etc off a UPS, which automatically chops 10 or 20V off when
needed.
It's the cool white, 9W version of this (not necessarily from this seller,
but they look identical): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262915986742
They contain a pretty decent looking switched mode PSU, unlike some other
bulbs I've seen which have a very simple capacitor dropper.
If any health and softy people want to be annoyed, then be aware that I
don't earth them. A couple of them made a humming noise when I did. If I
touch the metal casing of an unearthed unit, and rub my finger along it, I
feel a slight vibration. I guess something is jumping across by
induction.

More likely the capacitance effect you get with double insulated stuff.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:17:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you are not
billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but my neighbour
has an inductive load, so they even out.

Most neighbours don't have much long term inductive load anymore.

I don't see why it would have reduced. Inductive load is from motors - mowers, washing machines, vacuum cleaners, etc. This hasn't changed.

You don't get extra heat generated from a low power factor.

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:56:29 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is 0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

I just tested one of mine with a meter, and it gave a power factor of
1.00, at 256V, 9.8W. Yes I know that's an absurdly high voltage, but I
live opposite the substation so it's higher than the rest of the street,
and they won't do anything about it. I consequently run my computer,
lights, etc off a UPS, which automatically chops 10 or 20V off when
needed.
It's the cool white, 9W version of this (not necessarily from this seller,
but they look identical): http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/262915986742
They contain a pretty decent looking switched mode PSU, unlike some other
bulbs I've seen which have a very simple capacitor dropper.
If any health and softy people want to be annoyed, then be aware that I
don't earth them. A couple of them made a humming noise when I did. If I
touch the metal casing of an unearthed unit, and rub my finger along it, I
feel a slight vibration. I guess something is jumping across by
induction.

More likely the capacitance effect you get with double insulated stuff.

Could be. Would that also cause the buzzing when earthed?

On 10/3/19 1:29 PM, Robert wrote:
On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

I have a LED bulb (60W equivalent) in a lamp here. The bulb itself
doesn't get hot like an incandescent bulb does. What gets hot is an area
around the base.

--
82 days until the winter celebration (Wed, Dec 25, 2019 12:00:00 AM for
1 day).

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"You didn't hear it You didn't see it..." ...how absurd it all seems
without any proof" -- from "Tommy" by 'The Who'

On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 20:32:33 +0100, Mark Lloyd wrote:

On 10/3/19 1:29 PM, Robert wrote:
On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

I have a LED

That irritates me, why don't you write "an LED"? How do you say "LED"? I say "Ell Eee Dee", not "Light Emitting Diode". So it needs an "an", not an "a".

bulb (60W equivalent) in a lamp here.

60W? Are you a Klingon and love darkness? I use 100W and 150W bulbs only. And lots of them. My living room (7 metres by 4 metres) contains 13 90W bulbs.

The bulb itself
doesn't get hot like an incandescent bulb does. What gets hot is an area
around the base.

Through the heatsink probably, most of the heat is generated by the LEDs, not the far more efficient power supply.

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 04:56:29 +1000, AlexK, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rodent Speed, wrote:


More likely the capacitance effect you get with double insulated stuff.

Even more likely he's a trolling piece of **** like you, senile Rodent!

--
Website (from 2007) dedicated to the 85-year-old trolling senile
cretin from Oz:
https://www.pcreview.co.uk/threads/r...d-faq.2973853/

"Max Demian" wrote in message
...
On 04/10/2019 15:17, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 3 October 2019 16:58:03 UTC+1, Martin Brown wrote:
On 03/10/2019 15:16, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 15:08:43 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:45, Commander Kinsey wrote:
On Thu, 03 Oct 2019 14:37:34 +0100, whisky-dave

wrote:

On Thursday, 3 October 2019 14:29:30 UTC+1, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient".

That is the technical answer just lioke why does a wire get hot when
curremnt passes through it.

No, the technical answer would explain what part of it has resistance
and if it can be overcome by using different materials. And are you

It is resistance in the sense that there is some frictional losses to
the movement of current in the crystal lattice. Early LEDs you could
bump up the quantum efficiency by stiffening it - immersing in LN2
worked a few times before thermal cycling killed it stone dead.

sure it's even resistance? It could be some photons are reabsorbed
before they escape the LED, generating heat.

White LEDs rely on a yellow phosphor absorbing and re-emitting blue
photons to make a perceived white light. Coloured LEDs typically have
a
forward voltage related to the energy of photon that they emit.

There is a hit for doing that that limits ultimate efficiency to
something like 40% of power consumed out as useful light.

I didn't realise that, I thought white LEDs were designed to directly
emit a handful of different visible light wavelengths to make white.
Is
there a reason this can't be done? An LED can make anything in the
visible light spectrum, so surely a mixture of them would be more
efficient than using phosphors? There could even be seperate LEDs
within the housing, like growlamps which have visible, IR, and UV LEDs.

Tricolour can also be done but at the moment super efficient blue photon
production and then down convert to yellow to get white is best.

You can get tricolour high power LEDs that can be mixed to generate any
colour in consumer grade and theatre grade lighting systems too.

Don't forget the 4 colour ones we are using.

RGB+W although you can generate while light from red, blue & green it
is better to have a dedicated white LED in the package.

Why, as the white is really just blue doped with a fluorescent pigment,
and doesn't produce a continuous spectrum?

Because that generates more that looks white more efficiently.

On Sat, 5 Oct 2019 05:52:30 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:


Because that generates more that looks white more efficiently.

It certainly can't generate as much bull**** as you keep doing here every
day, cretin!

--
addressing nym-shifting senile Rodent:
"You on the other hand are a heavyweight bull****ter who demonstrates
your particular prowess at it every day."
MID:

"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 19:17:46 +0100, AlexK wrote:



"Commander Kinsey" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 04 Oct 2019 09:41:25 +0100, PeterC

wrote:

On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 19:29:42 +0100, Robert wrote:

On 03/10/2019 14:29, Commander Kinsey wrote:
Why do LEDs generate heat? I want a technical answer not "because
they're inefficient". And will we ever make them more efficient?
Besides the inefficiencies in the LED itself which other posters have
covered, LED lamps have some current regulation or power supply
built-in
which will not be 100% efficient and thus generates heat.

If my meter is correct, all the LEDs that I've measured have a PF of
approx.
0.5 - not a good start.
One TV has a PF of 0.97 and is barely warm over the PSU; another is
0.86
and
is luke warm. The real warmth in the 2nd. one is around the inputs
though -
SPDIF, USB and HDMI.

Is power factor that important? In a domestic building, you are not
billed for power factor. I might have a capacitive load, but my
neighbour
has an inductive load, so they even out.

Most neighbours don't have much long term inductive load anymore.

I don't see why it would have reduced.

It has anyway.

Inductive load is from motors - mowers, washing machines, vacuum cleaners,
etc. This hasn't changed.

The type of motor used in those has tho. Far fewer of the original
motors with a power factor problem now in domestic appliances.

You don't get extra heat generated from a low power factor.