Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

On 30/08/2019 18:12, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of
bricks (atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't
simply stick the damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the
same adhesive. Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you
can manage it, but for some jobs there are better alternatives.

most people think building is easy...seen so many people try to build a
house by themselves and ending up bankrupt due to bodging it and to not
realising that real skills are required ........

On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

The secret is in an even bed of cement and plenty of plasticiser in the mix.
You can get a special tool that lays an even cement bed. eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBJyn_-Bns

Sticking brickwork, at least for simple jobs, seems to an acceptable
approach in the US: I've seen online references to "construction adhesive"
which I assume is on the same lines at the sticks-all type stuff available
here.

I'm under no illusions as to the skills required for good bricklaying!

"harry" wrote:

The secret is in an even bed of cement and plenty of plasticiser in the
mix.
You can get a special tool that lays an even cement bed. eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBJyn_-Bns

I like the look of that and if I were planning to do much more, I'd get one.
But I rather suspect that the core secret is in getting the right mix of
mortar in the first place, something I always find difficult for some
reason.

Bert Coules wrote:
I'm under no illusions as to the skills required for good bricklaying!

A few months ago I happened across an archive film on one of the
more obscure freesat channels, it was from 1950-ish, and on how
to build a brick wall. The general brick lining-up and mortar
trowelling was so elegantly done it was a joy to behold.



#Paul

On 30/08/2019 18:22, harry wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

The secret is in an even bed of cement and plenty of plasticiser in the mix.
You can get a special tool that lays an even cement bed. eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBJyn_-Bns

I've got one of those and it is pretty good. However I soon managed to
work well enough without. I went from struggling to neatly replace three
or four bricks with even joints to laying 125 blocks and around 950
bricks for my conservatory in no time!

I've just come in from laying a few bricks for a new step as it happens.

SteveW

On 30/08/2019 18:28, Bert Coules wrote:
I like the look of that and if I were planning to do much more, I'd get
one. But I rather suspect that the core secret is in getting the right
mix of mortar in the first place, something I always findÂ* difficult for
some reason.

I would probably make something similar from wood if it was a one off
and not a lot of bricklaying to do.

On 30/08/2019 19:19, wrote:
Bert Coules wrote:
I'm under no illusions as to the skills required for good bricklaying!

A few months ago I happened across an archive film on one of the
more obscure freesat channels, it was from 1950-ish, and on how
to build a brick wall. The general brick lining-up and mortar
trowelling was so elegantly done it was a joy to behold.



#Paul

I remember the generation game decades ago had a demonstration by a
bricklayer using plasticiser and the contestants were obviously given
none so they would make a bigger hash of it ....

On 30/08/2019 18:28, Bert Coules wrote:
"harry" wrote:

The secret is in an even bed of cement and plenty of plasticiser in
the mix.
You can get a special tool that lays an even cement bed. eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBJyn_-Bns

I like the look of that and if I were planning to do much more, I'd get
one. But I rather suspect that the core secret is in getting the right
mix of mortar in the first place, something I always findÂ* difficult for
some reason.

and the right amount of washing up liquid ....

"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

And the right amount of washing up liquid ....

Would you add plasticiser (or washing up liquid) to shed-bought ready-mixed
mortar? That's what I used on this latest effort, but with nothing added.

On 31/08/2019 09:39, Bert Coules wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

And the right amount of washing up liquid ....

Would you add plasticiser (or washing up liquid) to shed-bought
ready-mixed mortar?Â* That's what I used on this latest effort, but with
nothing added.

yes. All you have bought is premixed sand and cement.

Andrew wrote:

Yes. All you have bought is premixed sand and cement.

Then that probably contributed to my failure, though it was surely not the
only factor, sadly. Thanks.

On 31/08/2019 12:23, Andrew wrote:
On 31/08/2019 09:39, Bert Coules wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

And the right amount of washing up liquid ....

Would you add plasticiser (or washing up liquid) to shed-bought
ready-mixed mortar?Â* That's what I used on this latest effort, but
with nothing added.

yes. All you have bought is premixed sand and cement.

not necessarily. Eg the widely available Blue Circle "Quality Assured
Mortar Mix" is a traditional 6:1:1 sand/cement/lime mortar and lime is a
time-served plasticiser.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of
bricks (atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't
simply stick the damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of
the same adhesive. Centuries-old technology may be all well and good
if you can manage it, but for some jobs there are better alternatives.

I have one of those little decorative garden walls. One with sort of hollow
larger than brick things and a thin concrete trim on top. I don't know what
to call it.
One of the trims was insecure so I blasted some silicone under it. Mr Know
It All next door thought this was hilarious. 11 years later the trim is
still there and still secure.

"Jim GM4DHJ ..." writes:

On 30/08/2019 18:28, Bert Coules wrote:
"harry" wrote:

The secret is in an even bed of cement and plenty of plasticiser in
the mix.
You can get a special tool that lays an even cement bed. eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBJyn_-Bns

I like the look of that and if I were planning to do much more, I'd
get one. But I rather suspect that the core secret is in getting the
right mix of mortar in the first place, something I always find*
difficult for some reason.

and the right amount of washing up liquid ....

This seems the right point to say that you can easily add too
much washing up liquid.

A 'professional' builder did this when building a barbecue for a
friend. The result was a mortar so crumbly it could be brushed
out of the joints. The builder admitted the cause and rebuilt the
barbecue.

For more than a brick or two, I'd go for the purpose-designed
products where there is some indication of how much to add.

--
David

In article ,
Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of
bricks (atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't
simply stick the damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of
the same adhesive. Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if
you can manage it, but for some jobs there are better alternatives.

Have you worked out the costs of a suitable adhesive? ;-)

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

Have you worked out the costs of a suitable adhesive? ;-)

No, but compared to the unequal, endless, depressing struggle that is me
versus bricks-laid-with-mortar I suspect it's well worth it, whatever it is.

Bert Coules wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

Have you worked out the costs of a suitable adhesive? ;-)

No, but compared to the unequal, endless, depressing struggle that is me
versus bricks-laid-with-mortar I suspect it's well worth it, whatever it
is.

CT1

A soldier course of paving blocks around my drive were dodgily bedded
in/on cement by whoever installed them, they started to give way after a
few months of driving the car on/off the drive and the remaining blocks
were free to "walk" sideways, has been fine for about 3 years since
"gluing" them back in place with CT1.

In 10 years time when the wall is demolished it will be harder to recycle the mix of glue and brick.

Did you wet the bricks and wall before cementing?

Did you use small amounts of readymix from B&Q, travis etc?

[g]


On Friday, August 30, 2019 at 6:12:38 PM UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

George Miles wrote:

In 10 years time when the wall is demolished
it will be harder to recycle the mix of glue and brick.

That doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Did you wet the bricks and wall before cementing?

I did.

Did you use small amounts of readymix from B&Q, travis etc?

I used Hansen "Sand Cement Mortar" (to quote the bag) which I think came
from Wickes. According to the label, "A portion of the cement... has been
replaced with Regen ground granulated blast furnace slag". I've no idea
why, or what effect, if any, that will have had on its effectiveness.

Robin wrote:

All you have bought is premixed sand and cement.

Not necessarily...

I used Hansen "Sand Cement Mortar" (to quote the bag) which I think came
from Wickes. According to the label, "A portion of the cement... has been
replaced with Regen ground granulated blast furnace slag". No mention of
plasticiser, natural or otherwise.

On 31/08/2019 09:39, Bert Coules wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

And the right amount of washing up liquid ....

Would you add plasticiser (or washing up liquid) to shed-bought
ready-mixed mortar?Â* That's what I used on this latest effort, but with
nothing added.
don't know would never do that what is so difficult about one to three
mix sand cement ?...and a dash of squeezy

On 31/08/2019 12:30, Bert Coules wrote:
Andrew wrote:

Yes. All you have bought is premixed sand and cement.

Then that probably contributed to my failure, though it was surely not
the only factor, sadly.Â* Thanks.
big factor in the workability stakes ...

On 31/08/2019 13:17, Robin wrote:
On 31/08/2019 12:23, Andrew wrote:
On 31/08/2019 09:39, Bert Coules wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

And the right amount of washing up liquid ....

Would you add plasticiser (or washing up liquid) to shed-bought
ready-mixed mortar?Â* That's what I used on this latest effort, but
with nothing added.

yes. All you have bought is premixed sand and cement.

not necessarily.Â* Eg the widely available Blue Circle "Quality Assured
Mortar Mix" is a traditional 6:1:1 sand/cement/lime mortar and lime is a
time-served plasticiser.

after a hundred years you can pick out the bricks in a lime mortar wall.....

On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

Brickwork is not hard to assemble, the skill is mainly in getting the alignment accurate & not getting it smeared on the brick face. The usual mortar mix is 1:1:6 or 1:6 plus plasticiser.


NT

Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

On 31/08/2019 13:17, Robin wrote:
On 31/08/2019 12:23, Andrew wrote:
On 31/08/2019 09:39, Bert Coules wrote:
"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote:

And the right amount of washing up liquid ....

Would you add plasticiser (or washing up liquid) to shed-bought
ready-mixed mortar? That's what I used on this latest effort, but
with nothing added.

yes. All you have bought is premixed sand and cement.

not necessarily. Eg the widely available Blue Circle "Quality Assured
Mortar Mix" is a traditional 6:1:1 sand/cement/lime mortar and lime is a
time-served plasticiser.

after a hundred years you can pick out the bricks in a lime mortar wall.....

6:1:1 made with hydraulic lime behaves like cement mortar and is strong
enough for ordinary bricks. It isn't permeable like proper lime mortar.

--

Roger Hayter

On 31/08/2019 17:36, Bert Coules wrote:
George Miles wrote:

In 10 years time when the wall is demolished
it will be harder to recycle the mix of glue and brick.

That doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Did you wet the bricks and wall before cementing?

I did.

I thought bricks should always be kept dry ?. The brick
sucks moisture out of the mortar and causes the stiction effect.

If the brick is wet, water contaminated with mortar runs down
the face and stains it.

Did you use small amounts of readymix from B&Q, travis etc?

I used Hansen "Sand Cement Mortar" (to quote the bag) which I think came
from Wickes.Â* According to the label, "A portion of the cement... has
been replaced with Regen ground granulated blast furnace slag".Â* I've no
idea why, or what effect, if any, that will have had on its effectiveness.


Wickes plasticiser is dirt cheap, or was the last time I bought some.

On 01/09/2019 11:09, Andrew wrote:
On 31/08/2019 17:36, Bert Coules wrote:
George Miles wrote:

In 10 years time when the wall is demolished
it will be harder to recycle the mix of glue and brick.

That doesn't bother me in the slightest.

Did you wet the bricks and wall before cementing?

I did.

I thought bricks should always be kept dry ?. The brick
sucks moisture out of the mortar and causes the stiction effect.

If the brick is wet, water contaminated with mortar runs down
the face and stains it.

Did you use small amounts of readymix from B&Q, travis etc?

I used Hansen "Sand Cement Mortar" (to quote the bag) which I think
came from Wickes.Â* According to the label, "A portion of the cement...
has been replaced with Regen ground granulated blast furnace slag".
I've no idea why, or what effect, if any, that will have had on its
effectiveness.


Wickes plasticiser is dirt cheap, or was the last time I bought some.
so is squeezy...

Andrew wrote:

I thought bricks should always be kept dry ?. The brick
sucks moisture out of the mortar and causes the stiction effect.

The instructions on the Hansen bag are to wet the bricks.

Bert Coules wrote:

Andrew wrote:

I thought bricks should always be kept dry ?. The brick
sucks moisture out of the mortar and causes the stiction effect.

The instructions on the Hansen bag are to wet the bricks.

Absorbent bricks (any except the hardest engineering bricks) should be
damp, but there should be no visible water left on fthe surface. How
long before use you wet them depends on the weather.

--

Roger Hayter

Roger Hayter wrote:

Absorbent bricks (any except the hardest engineering bricks) should be
damp, but there should be no visible water left on the surface.

That was exactly the situation and I still managed to make an
only-just-about-acceptable hash of the job: bricklaying and me simply don't
go together. For anything other than a single topping-off course I would
never have attempted it (and in fact even for such a simple project
contemplated having it done by a professional). I'm happy to acknowledge my
limits.

On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

My best attempt was when I managed to get the mortar just right. Not just adding water but chopping and folding and so on. When it has the right amount of air incorporated, it seems to work much more easily.

Also, frog up or frog down? I believe they should usually be frog down with the frog fully filled.

On 01/09/2019 22:03, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

My best attempt was when I managed to get the mortar just right. Not just adding water but chopping and folding and so on. When it has the right amount of air incorporated, it seems to work much more easily.

Also, frog up or frog down? I believe they should usually be frog down with the frog fully filled.

No.
The point of the frog is to have somewhere for mortar to go when tamping
the brick down.
So it should have a large air gap.


--
"I am inclined to tell the truth and dislike people who lie consistently.
This makes me unfit for the company of people of a Left persuasion, and
all women"

On Sunday, 1 September 2019 22:03:44 UTC+1, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

My best attempt was when I managed to get the mortar just right. Not just adding water but chopping and folding and so on. When it has the right amount of air incorporated, it seems to work much more easily.

Also, frog up or frog down? I believe they should usually be frog down with the frog fully filled.

Brick manufacturers tell you frog up. (Stronger job)
Brickies lay them frog down to make them easier to lay.

You hardly ever see frogs these days anyway, they come on pressed bricks.
Most bricks are extruded and wire cut nowadays.

On Sunday, 1 September 2019 22:03:44 UTC+1, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

My best attempt was when I managed to get the mortar just right. Not just adding water but chopping and folding and so on. When it has the right amount of air incorporated, it seems to work much more easily.

Also, frog up or frog down? I believe they should usually be frog down with the frog fully filled.

https://www.ibstockbrick.co.uk//wp-c...UP-OR-DOWN.pdf

On 02/09/2019 07:29, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 1 September 2019 22:03:44 UTC+1, polygonum_on_google wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

My best attempt was when I managed to get the mortar just right. Not just adding water but chopping and folding and so on. When it has the right amount of air incorporated, it seems to work much more easily.

Also, frog up or frog down? I believe they should usually be frog down with the frog fully filled.

Brick manufacturers tell you frog up. (Stronger job)
Brickies lay them frog down to make them easier to lay.

You hardly ever see frogs these days anyway, they come on pressed bricks.
Most bricks are extruded and wire cut nowadays.

and some have to be laid cut direction down so the face doesn't hold
water... ....

On Friday, August 30, 2019 at 6:22:45 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert Coules wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

The secret is in an even bed of cement and plenty of plasticiser in the mix.
You can get a special tool that lays an even cement bed. eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tBJyn_-Bns

I had one of those for building my extension. I gave up after a short while and (slowly) used the tradition method. The trouble is it lays a flat layer of mortar which does not really allow the bricks to bed in - nothing goes into the frogs or holes. If everying is perfectly flat it sort of works but you could certainly end up with a weak wall.

Simon.

On 02/09/2019 13:01, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
On 02/09/2019 07:29, harry wrote:
On Sunday, 1 September 2019 22:03:44 UTC+1, polygonum_on_googleÂ* wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2019 18:12:38 UTC+1, Bert CoulesÂ* wrote:
Having just made my usual abject mess of laying a single course of
bricks
(atop an existing low wall) I seriously wonder why I didn't simply
stick the
damn things in place and fill the gaps with more of the same adhesive.
Centuries-old technology may be all well and good if you can manage
it, but
for some jobs there are better alternatives.

My best attempt was when I managed to get the mortar just right. Not
just adding water but chopping and folding and so on. When it has the
right amount of air incorporated, it seems to work much more easily.

Also, frog up or frog down? I believe they should usually be frog
down with the frog fully filled.

Brick manufacturers tell you frog up. (Stronger job)
Brickies lay them frog down to make them easier to lay.

You hardly ever see frogs these days anyway, they come on pressed bricks.
Most bricks are extruded and wire cut nowadays.

and some have to be laid cut direction down so the face doesn't hold
water...Â* ....

Cheapskate brickies lay them frog down because it saves a lot on
mortar. They frog stays more or less empty.

causes all manner of swearing if you try and attach something like
a new door frame with frame anchors and you drill into a stonking
great void.

You hardly ever see frogs these days anyway, they come on pressed
bricks.
Most bricks are extruded and wire cut nowadays.

and some have to be laid cut direction down so the face doesn't hold
water... ....

Cheapskate brickies lay them frog down because it saves a lot on
mortar. They frog stays more or less empty.

causes all manner of swearing if you try and attach something like
a new door frame with frame anchors and you drill into a stonking
great void.
#
wasn't talking about bricks with frogs...