On Sat, 08 Jun 2019 21:25:35 +0100, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article ,
says...

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...


If the device doesn't require an earth you don't need a metal pin
but the plastic pin has to be present to open the shutters on a 13A
socket.



which is a pain as they seem to break off too easily .....

Whilst I agree that the can be snapped off, I've never had it happen to
me - and I can be really clumsy at times.

Of course, if you abuse anything sufficiently badly it will break ...

had two go recently...pain inthe butt...who stocks 13amp plugs these
days .....

I needed half a dozen last week. Somewhere I have some old ones. I ended
up buying a box of 20 as it was cheaper! (first I had to fond some with
proper cord grips)



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in directly without the
need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong.
The same is true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are too
small.
You might get away with it or you might overheat the thing and cause a
fire later when someone plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there has been no
shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is unlikely to cause any harm
due to the very low charging current. More worrying is that in a fault
case the very thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the
32A MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads. Lack of fusing
is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging shaver
or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not going to happen,
so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

.... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads. Sheesh.

On 10/06/2019 19:02, wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in directly without the
need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong.
The same is true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are too
small.
You might get away with it or you might overheat the thing and cause a
fire later when someone plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there has been no
shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is unlikely to cause any harm
due to the very low charging current. More worrying is that in a fault
case the very thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the
32A MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads. Lack of fusing
is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging shaver
or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not going to happen,
so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads. Sheesh.


But it doesn't.
Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc and that damages the
contacts in the socket and then it becomes a fire risk when someone
plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in directly without the
need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong.
The same is true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are too
small.
You might get away with it or you might overheat the thing and cause a
fire later when someone plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there has been no
shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is unlikely to cause any harm
due to the very low charging current. More worrying is that in a fault
case the very thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the
32A MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads. Lack of fusing
is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging shaver
or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not going to happen,
so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads. Sheesh.


But it doesn't.
Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc and that damages the
contacts in the socket and then it becomes a fire risk when someone
plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins. That's ok at low current.

Plugging them only into 2A or 3A fused extension leads was how I fused them.. (I'm not recomending using that approach now, it's hardly ideal.)


NT

On 09/06/2019 22:25, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
On 07/06/2019 23:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 07/06/2019 18:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article , briang1
@blueyonder.co.uk says...

Yes and the cable out of the other side. If you look carefully at
these,
there is normally a flat twistable plate on the bottom
containing the
pins
and one can simply twist it off and twist on one for another land
entirely,
as the ground is at the bottom in effect they assume all
sockets are
earth
down of course.

I've seen one or two of those but they are rare.

Some of course do not even bother with the earth simply
putting in a
plastic
pin instead.

If the device doesn't require an earth you don't need a metal
pin but the plastic pin has to be present to open the shutters
on a 13A socket.



which is a pain as they seem to break off too easily .....

I've just looked and MK seem to have changed their socket design
to a
more conventional one. They used to use a shutter mechanism that
turned around a pivot point between the live and neutral pins and
had
ramps in opposite directions on the two holes, so they didn't
need an
earth pin to open them.

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in directly without the
need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong.
The same is true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are
too
small.
You might get away with it or you might overheat the thing and cause a
fire later when someone plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there has been no
shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is unlikely to cause any harm
due to the very low charging current. More worrying is that in a fault
case the very thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the
32A MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads. Lack of
fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging shaver
or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not going to happen,
so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

The problem is less what happens to your appliance with the wrong plug,
and more what happens to the next hapless person along with a high load
appliance and proper plug using a socket which now has (potentially)
damaged contacts.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 11/06/2019 10:59, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in
directly without the need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong. The same is
true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are
too small. You might get away with it or you might
overheat the thing and cause a fire later when someone
plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there
has been no shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is
unlikely to cause any harm due to the very low charging
current. More worrying is that in a fault case the very
thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the
32A MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't have
the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on insertion? Are
you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that can be inserted at
an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 08/06/2019 21:05, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...


If the device doesn't require an earth you don't need a metal
pin but the plastic pin has to be present to open the shutters
on a 13A socket.



which is a pain as they seem to break off too easily .....

Whilst I agree that the can be snapped off, I've never had it
happen to me - and I can be really clumsy at times.

Ordered an additional 18V battery charger the other day - turned up with
the earth pin snapped off! (it was well packaged and wrapped up, but the
plug had been located in the packaging such that its pins were resting
against the charger. Must have got a knock in just the wrong direction)

Of course, if you abuse anything sufficiently badly it will
break ...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 08/06/2019 21:05, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...


If the device doesn't require an earth you don't need a metal
pin but the plastic pin has to be present to open the shutters
on a 13A socket.



which is a pain as they seem to break off too easily .....

Whilst I agree that the can be snapped off, I've never had it
happen to me - and I can be really clumsy at times.

Ordered an additional 18V battery charger the other day - turned up with
the earth pin snapped off! (it was well packaged and wrapped up, but the
plug had been located in the packaging such that its pins were resting
against the charger. Must have got a knock in just the wrong direction)

and they say that never happens...tee hee

On 12/06/2019 02:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@homeÂ* wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in
directly without the need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong. The same is
true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are
too small. You might get away with it or you might
overheat the thing and cause a fire later when someone
plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there
has been no shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is
unlikely to cause any harm due to the very low charging
current. More worrying is that in a fault case the very
thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the 32A MCB
or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't have
the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on insertion? Are
you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that can be inserted at
an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)

--
Max Demian

On 12/06/2019 10:32, Max Demian wrote:
On 12/06/2019 02:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@homeÂ* wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in
directly without the need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong. The same is
true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are
too small. You might get away with it or you might
overheat the thing and cause a fire later when someone
plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there
has been no shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is
unlikely to cause any harm due to the very low charging
current. More worrying is that in a fault case the very
thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the 32A
MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't have
the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on insertion?
Are you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that can be
inserted at an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)

Its not a pointless discussion since ISTM that people are missing one of
the key problems with doing this...

Yes from the point of view of the user poking things into the socket, it
will "work", its unlikely to result in immediate Armageddon etc. The
main concern is that the socket gets damaged in the process, and that
then causes problems for later users of the socket.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/06/2019 08:27, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 08/06/2019 21:05, Terry Casey wrote:
In article ,
says...

"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...


If the device doesn't require an earth you don't need a metal
pin but the plastic pin has to be present to open the shutters
on a 13A socket.



which is a pain as they seem to break off too easily .....

Whilst I agree that the can be snapped off, I've never had it
happen to me - and I can be really clumsy at times.

Ordered an additional 18V battery charger the other day - turned up with
the earth pin snapped off! (it was well packaged and wrapped up, but the
plug had been located in the packaging such that its pins were resting
against the charger. Must have got a knock in just the wrong direction)

and they say that never happens...tee hee

Its the first time I have had a pin snapped of a proper 13A moulded on
plug, rather than say a wallwart.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 12/06/2019 10:32, Max Demian wrote:

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)


An old style plug without the plastic sheath is better (for some value
of "better").
I wouldn't do it these days its easy to pop a new plug on or a proper EU
to 13A convertor and they are pence.

In message , Max
Demian writes
On 12/06/2019 02:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home* wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker* wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in
directly without the need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong. The same is
true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are
too small. You might get away with it or you might
overheat the thing and cause a fire later when someone
plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there
has been no shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is
unlikely to cause any harm due to the very low charging
current. More worrying is that in a fault case the very
thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the 32A
MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.
They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't
have the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on
insertion? Are you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that
can be inserted at an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)

You can often get away with poking a low-current EU 2-pin plug Type-C
(2.5A max) in a UK socket (provided the thin pins make contact - which
they usually do).

However, never Never NEVER insert the 16A Type-E (the normal sort of
European domestic plug) and similar. The diameter of the pins tends to
be a bit more than the height of the slots in the face of a UK 13A
socket, and it's usually an obvious tight fit when you try to insert it.

But the real danger is what it does inside to the 13A socket fingers.
There's a good chance that they will be permanently splayed - and if you
later insert a UK plug, the fingers may make no (or very poor) contact
with the pins. Back in the 1980s I recall a cable TV 30-channnel headend
where the customer kept complaining that some of the channels kept going
off and on - to the constant annoyance of the customers. It turned out
that much of the original equipment was of European manufacture - and
the Type-E plugs that everything was fitted with were simply forced into
the UK multiway strips sockets. When the headend was later updated, and
the old equipment replaced with new units fitted with 13A plugs, it was
act of God what, whether and when anything worked (or not).
--
Ian

On 12/06/2019 12:04, dennis@home wrote:
On 12/06/2019 10:32, Max Demian wrote:

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)


An old style plug without the plastic sheath is better (for some value
of "better").
I wouldn't do it these days its easy to pop a new plug on or a proper EU
to 13A convertor and they are pence.

I don't think that the point is to save money. It is because people need
to plug something in straight away and either nowhere is open or they
just don't want to make a trip out to get an adapter there and then.
Equally, they don't want to modify the existing lead, as they need that
intact when they are travelling.

SteveW

On 12/06/2019 02:12, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/06/2019 22:25, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
On 07/06/2019 23:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 07/06/2019 18:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article , briang1
@blueyonder.co.uk says...

Yes and the cable out of the other side. If you look
carefully at
these,
there is normally a flat twistable plate on the bottom
containing the
pins
and one can simply twist it off and twist on one for another
land
entirely,
as the ground is at the bottom in effect they assume all
sockets are
earth
down of course.

I've seen one or two of those but they are rare.

Some of course do not even bother with the earth simply
putting in a
plastic
pin instead.

If the device doesn't require an earth you don't need a metal
pin but the plastic pin has to be present to open the shutters
on a 13A socket.



which is a pain as they seem to break off too easily .....

I've just looked and MK seem to have changed their socket design
to a
more conventional one. They used to use a shutter mechanism that
turned around a pivot point between the live and neutral pins
and had
ramps in opposite directions on the two holes, so they didn't
need an
earth pin to open them.

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in directly without the
need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong.
The same is true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins
are too
small.
You might get away with it or you might overheat the thing and
cause a
fire later when someone plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there has been no
shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is unlikely to cause any
harm
due to the very low charging current. More worrying is that in a fault
case the very thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the
32A MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads. Lack of
fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging shaver
or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not going to happen,
so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

The problem is less what happens to your appliance with the wrong plug,
and more what happens to the next hapless person along with a high load
appliance and proper plug using a socket which now has (potentially)
damaged contacts.

The likelihood of damage using a shaver plug is pretty low. They are
narrower than the proper pins, so shouldn't splay the contacts; they
have rounded ends, so shouldn't catch on the contacts, even at an angle;
and the current is low, so a poor contact shouldn't cause damage by
heating. Even more so, it is usually something that is only done once or
twice before a proper load or adapter is obtained.

SteveW

On 12/06/2019 20:38, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/06/2019 02:12, John Rumm wrote:
On 09/06/2019 22:25, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 11:10, Max Demian wrote:
On 07/06/2019 23:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 07/06/2019 18:37, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"Terry Casey" wrote in message
...
In article , briang1
@blueyonder.co.uk says...

Yes and the cable out of the other side. If you look
carefully at
these,
there is normally a flat twistable plate on the bottom
containing the
pins
and one can simply twist it off and twist on one for another
land
entirely,
as the ground is at the bottom in effect they assume all
sockets are
earth
down of course.

I've seen one or two of those but they are rare.

Some of course do not even bother with the earth simply
putting in a
plastic
pin instead.

If the device doesn't require an earth you don't need a metal
pin but the plastic pin has to be present to open the shutters
on a 13A socket.



which is a pain as they seem to break off too easily .....

I've just looked and MK seem to have changed their socket
design to a
more conventional one. They used to use a shutter mechanism that
turned around a pivot point between the live and neutral pins
and had
ramps in opposite directions on the two holes, so they didn't
need an
earth pin to open them.

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in directly without the
need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong.
The same is true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins
are too
small.
You might get away with it or you might overheat the thing and
cause a
fire later when someone plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there has been no
shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is unlikely to cause any
harm
due to the very low charging current. More worrying is that in a
fault
case the very thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by
the
32A MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads. Lack of
fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not going to
happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

The problem is less what happens to your appliance with the wrong
plug, and more what happens to the next hapless person along with a
high load appliance and proper plug using a socket which now has
(potentially) damaged contacts.

The likelihood of damage using a shaver plug is pretty low. They are
narrower than the proper pins, so shouldn't splay the contacts; they
have rounded ends, so shouldn't catch on the contacts, even at an angle;
and the current is low, so a poor contact shouldn't cause damage by
heating. Even more so, it is usually something that is only done once or
twice before a proper load or adapter is obtained.

SteveW

That should have read "lead", not "load."

On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 02:15:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't have
the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on insertion? Are
you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that can be inserted at
an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?

I see its BS o'clock.


NT

On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 10:32:32 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)

a mains plug beats matchsticks, it used to get used in lieu of a 2 way adaptor, or when something had no plug.


NT

On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 11:08:01 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/06/2019 10:32, Max Demian wrote:
On 12/06/2019 02:15, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@homeÂ* wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve WalkerÂ* wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 8 June 2019 15:20:05 UTC+1, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 08/06/2019 12:46, dennis@home wrote:

You could also plug a "continental" two pin in
directly without the need for a shaving adapter.


Risky though as the pin sizes are wrong. The same is
true of plugging them into shaver adapters the pins are
too small. You might get away with it or you might
overheat the thing and cause a fire later when someone
plugs an electric fire in.

Indeed.

I have done it with a shaver needing a charge when there
has been no shaver socket or adapter. In that case it is
unlikely to cause any harm due to the very low charging
current. More worrying is that in a fault case the very
thin flex and the shaver itself is only protected by the 32A
MCB or even 30A fuse for the ring.

SteveW

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't have
the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on insertion?
Are you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that can be
inserted at an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)

Its not a pointless discussion since ISTM that people are missing one of
the key problems with doing this...

Yes from the point of view of the user poking things into the socket, it
will "work", its unlikely to result in immediate Armageddon etc. The
main concern is that the socket gets damaged in the process, and that
then causes problems for later users of the socket.

That may be your concern. I explained many posts up why it doesn't happen. If you don't wish to accept that that is your right, but not my concern.


NT

On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 20:38:18 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/06/2019 02:12, John Rumm wrote:

The problem is less what happens to your appliance with the wrong plug,
and more what happens to the next hapless person along with a high load
appliance and proper plug using a socket which now has (potentially)
damaged contacts.

The likelihood of damage using a shaver plug is pretty low. They are
narrower than the proper pins, so shouldn't splay the contacts; they
have rounded ends, so shouldn't catch on the contacts, even at an angle;
and the current is low, so a poor contact shouldn't cause damage by
heating. Even more so, it is usually something that is only done once or
twice before a proper load or adapter is obtained.

SteveW

they're more rounded than a 13A plug's pins


NT

On 12/06/2019 21:10, wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 20:38:18 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/06/2019 02:12, John Rumm wrote:

The problem is less what happens to your appliance with the wrong plug,
and more what happens to the next hapless person along with a high load
appliance and proper plug using a socket which now has (potentially)
damaged contacts.

The likelihood of damage using a shaver plug is pretty low. They are
narrower than the proper pins, so shouldn't splay the contacts; they
have rounded ends, so shouldn't catch on the contacts, even at an angle;
and the current is low, so a poor contact shouldn't cause damage by
heating. Even more so, it is usually something that is only done once or
twice before a proper load or adapter is obtained.

SteveW

they're more rounded than a 13A plug's pins

To be fair, 13A plug pins don't need to be rounded. You can't put them
in at an angle and the tip is much thinner than the gap between the
contacts, so two flat, sloping faces work fine and are cheap and simple
to make.

SteveW

On 12/06/2019 20:34, Steve Walker wrote:
On 12/06/2019 12:04, dennis@home wrote:
On 12/06/2019 10:32, Max Demian wrote:

This is a pointless discussion as obviously plugging a continental
2-round-pin plug into a 3-square-pin socket (if we are still talking
about that) isn't quite the correct thing to do, but you can get away
with it in many cases, like sticking bare wires into the socket and
relying on the shutter to hold them in place. (You used to need
matchsticks.)


An old style plug without the plastic sheath is better (for some value
of "better").
I wouldn't do it these days its easy to pop a new plug on or a proper
EU to 13A convertor and they are pence.

I don't think that the point is to save money. It is because people need
to plug something in straight away and either nowhere is open or they
just don't want to make a trip out to get an adapter there and then.
Equally, they don't want to modify the existing lead, as they need that
intact when they are travelling.

SteveW


That would be why I keep spares.

On 12/06/2019 21:03, wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 02:15:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't have
the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on insertion? Are
you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that can be inserted at
an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?

I see its BS o'clock.

Well you are the expert.

Might I suggest you go study figure 4a an on in BS1363-1.

You will note that the dimensions, profiles and tolerances for plug pins
are very carefully specified - such that they will mate with and make
good contact with matching sockets reliably without risk of damaging the
contacts.

If you believe that you can go stuffing foreign objects into a socket,
and have them make a good and safe contact, then you would be right -
sometimes.

If you believe that you can however do it repeatedly without any risk,
then you are deluding yourself.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 13 June 2019 02:53:42 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/06/2019 21:03, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 02:15:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current loads.
Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a charging
shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor contact is not
going to happen, so it wouldn't matter. Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such loads.
Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can make it arc
and that damages the contacts in the socket and then it becomes a
fire risk when someone plugs in a real plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined the
mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs & sockets
extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets gripping the pins.
That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which don't have
the proper profile will not displace or bend a contact on insertion? Are
you confident that a smaller diameter pin which that can be inserted at
an angle will not hit the leading edge of a contact?

I see its BS o'clock.

Well you are the expert.

Might I suggest you go study figure 4a an on in BS1363-1.

You will note that the dimensions, profiles and tolerances for plug pins
are very carefully specified - such that they will mate with and make
good contact with matching sockets reliably without risk of damaging the
contacts.

If you believe that you can go stuffing foreign objects into a socket,
and have them make a good and safe contact, then you would be right -
sometimes.

If you believe that you can however do it repeatedly without any risk,
then you are deluding yourself.

Figure 4a describes plug pins as being from 3.90mm to 4.05mm thick. This implies that BS 13a sockets must connect reliably to pins 3.90 to 4.05mm thick. I'd say that's a pretty good match for 4mm diameter round pins wouldn't you?

Having seen the innards of numerous 13A sockets, I've never found a BS compliant one that fails to make a secure connection with a 4mm pin. I'm not recommending doing it for a few reasons, but it certainly works. If you think a socket that grips 3.90-4.05mm pins can't handle a 4mm pin, I'm sure you're entitled to your opinion but to call anyone that disagrees with it delusional is a tad silly.


NT

On 13/06/2019 04:23, wrote:
On Thursday, 13 June 2019 02:53:42 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/06/2019 21:03, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 02:15:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current
loads. Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a
charging shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor
contact is not going to happen, so it wouldn't matter.
Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such
loads. Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can
make it arc and that damages the contacts in the socket and
then it becomes a fire risk when someone plugs in a real
plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined
the mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs &
sockets extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets
gripping the pins. That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which
don't have the proper profile will not displace or bend a
contact on insertion? Are you confident that a smaller diameter
pin which that can be inserted at an angle will not hit the
leading edge of a contact?

I see its BS o'clock.

Well you are the expert.

Might I suggest you go study figure 4a an on in BS1363-1.

You will note that the dimensions, profiles and tolerances for plug
pins are very carefully specified - such that they will mate with
and make good contact with matching sockets reliably without risk
of damaging the contacts.

If you believe that you can go stuffing foreign objects into a
socket, and have them make a good and safe contact, then you would
be right - sometimes.

If you believe that you can however do it repeatedly without any
risk, then you are deluding yourself.

Figure 4a describes plug pins as being from 3.90mm to 4.05mm thick.
This implies that BS 13a sockets must connect reliably to pins 3.90
to 4.05mm thick. I'd say that's a pretty good match for 4mm diameter
round pins wouldn't you?

Why are you assuming 4mm?

So far "continental" 2 pin plugs, shaver plugs, and bare wires /
screwdrivers have been discussed.

Shaver plugs to BS4573 have a pin diameter of 5.1mm and a spacing of
16.7mm, euro plugs have 4mm pins on a spacing of 19mm. Others like CEE
7/6 have 4.8mm on 19mm spacing.

With a bit of determination you could stuff them all into a BS1363 socket.

Having seen the innards of numerous 13A sockets, I've never found a
BS compliant one that fails to make a secure connection with a 4mm
pin. I'm not recommending doing it for a few reasons, but it
certainly works. If you think a socket that grips 3.90-4.05mm pins
can't handle a 4mm pin,

Ah yes, Reductio Ad Absurdum - nice try.

I'm sure you're entitled to your opinion but
to call anyone that disagrees with it delusional is a tad silly.

That would be a woosh then...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Thursday, 13 June 2019 12:07:27 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 13/06/2019 04:23, tabbypurr wrote:
On Thursday, 13 June 2019 02:53:42 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 12/06/2019 21:03, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 June 2019 02:15:23 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 11/06/2019 10:59, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 June 2019 10:26:46 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 10/06/2019 19:02, tabbypurr wrote:
On Sunday, 9 June 2019 22:25:24 UTC+1, Steve Walker
wrote:
On 09/06/2019 09:42, dennis@home wrote:
On 08/06/2019 23:29, tabbypurr wrote:

Pin size is fine, those plugs are on low current
loads. Lack of fusing is more an issue.


NT


The pin size is not fine.

No it is not. However, with the low current drawn by a
charging shaver or toothbrush, overheating due to poor
contact is not going to happen, so it wouldn't matter.
Higher loads would.

... which makes the pin size absolutely fine for such
loads. Sheesh.


But it doesn't. Even with small loads any vibration can
make it arc and that damages the contacts in the socket and
then it becomes a fire risk when someone plugs in a real
plug with a load on it.

I conclude you've either not used the method or not examined
the mechanics behind the faceplate. I used such plugs &
sockets extensively as a kid. I looked to find the sockets
gripping the pins. That's ok at low current.

They grip ok, but how do you guarantee that the pins which
don't have the proper profile will not displace or bend a
contact on insertion? Are you confident that a smaller diameter
pin which that can be inserted at an angle will not hit the
leading edge of a contact?

I see its BS o'clock.

Well you are the expert.

Might I suggest you go study figure 4a an on in BS1363-1.

You will note that the dimensions, profiles and tolerances for plug
pins are very carefully specified - such that they will mate with
and make good contact with matching sockets reliably without risk
of damaging the contacts.

If you believe that you can go stuffing foreign objects into a
socket, and have them make a good and safe contact, then you would
be right - sometimes.

If you believe that you can however do it repeatedly without any
risk, then you are deluding yourself.

Figure 4a describes plug pins as being from 3.90mm to 4.05mm thick.
This implies that BS 13a sockets must connect reliably to pins 3.90
to 4.05mm thick. I'd say that's a pretty good match for 4mm diameter
round pins wouldn't you?

Why are you assuming 4mm?

I'm not assuming 4mm, the plug pins in question _are_ 4mm.

So far "continental" 2 pin plugs, shaver plugs, and bare wires /
screwdrivers have been discussed.

Shaver plugs to BS4573 have a pin diameter of 5.1mm and a spacing of
16.7mm,

they don't fit

euro plugs have 4mm pins on a spacing of 19mm. Others like CEE
7/6 have 4.8mm on 19mm spacing.

With a bit of determination you could stuff them all into a BS1363 socket.

can't say I've tried other types.

Having seen the innards of numerous 13A sockets, I've never found a
BS compliant one that fails to make a secure connection with a 4mm
pin. I'm not recommending doing it for a few reasons, but it
certainly works. If you think a socket that grips 3.90-4.05mm pins
can't handle a 4mm pin,

Ah yes, Reductio Ad Absurdum - nice try.

just pointing out the facts

I'm sure you're entitled to your opinion but
to call anyone that disagrees with it delusional is a tad silly.

That would be a woosh then...

oh yeah.


NT