"Jim GM4DHJ ..." wrote in message
...
this is the one I remember ..no give way lines ....



I'm surprised that the pedestrian crossing just before the roundabout
doesn't appear to be signposted in advance (in absence of the flashing
bollards that a UK zebra crossing has) - there's only the white hatched zone
to denote it. When I was driving in the small towns north of Boston (eg
Ipswich) I was baffled by signs "PED XING" until I worked out that it was an
abbreviation for Pedestrian Crossing.

That roundabout does have give way lines across the road and YIELD written
just before them. One problem I found (and there was a junction somewhere in
the centre of Ipswich which was an example of this) is a side road which
joins a major road on the outside of a bend, and has no give way lines to
show where you should stop. When a road is straight it is easy enough to
continue the kerb of the major road as an imaginary line across the side
road, but that's a lot more difficult when the major road is on a sharp
bend. I found I stopped further back than I should, and got peeped at, as if
to say "move forwards a foot". This is a sketch
https://i.postimg.cc/pXmV6bnV/img495.png - I've drawn in orange the white
lines which would be present on a UK road but which were not marked in any
way (with the markings as if for LHD traffic).

"Davidm" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 22 Apr 2019 15:50:49 +0100, "Jim GM4DHJ ..."
wrote:

It happened again today as it has happened countless times before three
vehicles approach at the same time and all stop at the give way line at
a three way mini roundabout....we all sit there wondering who has right
of way...so feck it I blasted on around leaving them sitting....fed up
with everybody stopping and wondering who should go....any body else
found this? ....
Much more fun when you have 6 mini roundabouts around the 6 roads
leading into a big roundabout, like the so called "magic roundabout"
in Hemel Hempstead (I think there may be others around the country
now). I was working in Hemel at the time that roundabout was built - I
had great fun )


The Hemel one looks a bit weird when you see the signs on the approach, and
the first time you do it, it takes balls of steel to go the wrong way round
the big central roundabout although the right way round the mini
roundabouts. At least it's logical and geometric.

The Magic Roundabout in Swindon is *much* worse because the roundabouts are
plonked at random and I find I can never work out where traffic is going to
come from next. I still prefer one big roundabout which only makes me give
way once as I enter; once I am on the roundabout, everyone else has to give
way to me, instead of me having to give way at every side road to traffic
that wants to join. Maybe it's because I visualise it as one big junction
rather than lots of mini-roundabouts which just happen to be right next to
each other.

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Which includes "Vehicles entering the junction must give way to vehicles
approaching from the right, circulating the central island." - i.e.
priority only exists once there is a vehicle on the roundabout.

True, but it's like a pedestrian crossing where the official rules are that
you only have to stop when someone has actually set foot on the crossing. In
the *real* world you need to anticipate when the car (in the case of a mini
roundabout) or pedestrian (in the case of a zebra) is about to do so, and
slow down in anticipation - or keep going at the same speed (without
accelerating) if you judge that you will not make the car/person have to
change speed/course, and will be clear of their path by the time they
arrive.

"Tim+" wrote in message
...

Tim Streater wrote:
Which is a complete pigs ear. The French had this due to Priorite a
droite. So everyone can enter the roundabout and anyone already on it
has to give way to people entering.

Spotted the obvious flaw with this?

The roundabout at the Arc de Triomphe comes to mind.


To add to the fun, the rules in France can vary depending on which town
youre in. Bloody nightmare.

That used to be the case but the high level of prangs led to nationalisation
:-
https://www.eurorap.org/wp-content/u...oundabouts.pdf

If French cars already on the roundabout have to give-way, this would lead
to a lot of gridlocks? (already mentioned).

A gridlocked roundabout is a safe roundabout, which would lead to lower
accident statistics but won't include the increase in stress level. I wonder
if the suicide rate of French taxi drivers has gone up?

On 23/04/2019 09:18, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

yes mini roundabouts just don't work...

Yet millions of people negotiate them with ease every day.

I wonder where the problem lies?

"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
A gridlocked roundabout is one where people will get out of their cars
and start biffing each other. It's also a *stupid* roundabout.

You still get gridlocked roundabouts in the UK if one of the exits gets
blocked further down the road and people queue across the entry so other
traffic is blocked from going in a direction other than the one that is
tailing back. But it's much less common than in countries which give
priority to traffic joining over traffic on the roundabout.

I'd though that it was the Netherlands which had that rule, rather than
France, but I agree that it would go hand-in-hand with the French
priorité-a-droit rule which is equally nonsensical. Anyone who gives
priority to a farm tractor pulling out of a farm track, over traffic that is
bombing along (the equivalent of) an A road, needs their head examining.
I've never understood why Australia and/or NZ have the rule that
right-turning traffic on a fast road has priority over oncoming fast
traffic, but I suppose it is to minimise the time that right-turners are
stuck in the middle of the road being a hazard to everyone else.

On 23/04/2019 13:22, NY wrote:
Anyone who gives priority to a farm tractor pulling out of a farm track,
over traffic that is bombing along (the equivalent of) an A road, needs
their head examining.

115mph, Opel Manta. Citroen pulls out in front. Dual carriageway. sees
me moves, to fast lane as I move to fast lane he ducks back as I duck
back..and fortunately stays put.




--
The lifetime of any political organisation is about three years before
its been subverted by the people it tried to warn you about.

Anon.

On 23/04/2019 11:30, NY wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Which includes "Vehicles entering the junction must give way to
vehicles approaching from the right, circulating the central island."
- i.e. priority only exists once there is a vehicle on the roundabout.

True, but it's like a pedestrian crossing where the official rules are
that you only have to stop when someone has actually set foot on the
crossing. In the *real* world you need to anticipate when the car (in
the case of a mini roundabout) or pedestrian (in the case of a zebra) is
about to do so, and slow down in anticipation - or keep going at the
same speed (without accelerating) if you judge that you will not make
the car/person have to change speed/course, and will be clear of their
path by the time they arrive.

Not quite the same though. If you driving onto a mini-roundabout means
that someone approaching on your right, but not yet on the roundabout
has to brake or even stop, that is just as legitimate as you doing so
for them, as no priority exists. Of course you have to be aware of their
proximity and approach speed and may well decide that asserting your
right to continue is not sensible.

SteveW

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 23/04/2019 11:30, NY wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Which includes "Vehicles entering the junction must give way to vehicles
approaching from the right, circulating the central island." - i.e.
priority only exists once there is a vehicle on the roundabout.

True, but it's like a pedestrian crossing where the official rules are
that you only have to stop when someone has actually set foot on the
crossing. In the *real* world you need to anticipate when the car (in the
case of a mini roundabout) or pedestrian (in the case of a zebra) is
about to do so, and slow down in anticipation - or keep going at the same
speed (without accelerating) if you judge that you will not make the
car/person have to change speed/course, and will be clear of their path
by the time they arrive.

Not quite the same though. If you driving onto a mini-roundabout means
that someone approaching on your right, but not yet on the roundabout has
to brake or even stop, that is just as legitimate as you doing so for
them, as no priority exists. Of course you have to be aware of their
proximity and approach speed and may well decide that asserting your right
to continue is not sensible.

I would never be so arrogant as to pull out in front a car that was
approaching from the right, thinking that it was acceptable to make him
brake hard simply because he hadn't yet crossed the line. In both the case
of a roundabout and of a zebra crossing, I'd say that the rule should begin
some way before the line, so that you judge where the person will be in
relation to the line when you arrive at the roundabout or crossing, and be
prepared to stop for them if they have priority. If I pulled out from a
roundabout to turn right (which requires driving fairly slowly) and a car
that was going faster because it was taking the straight through route had
to brake to avoid hitting me, I'd deserve every decibel of his horn, on the
basis of "never do anything that would make another road user have to slow
down, stop or change course to avoid you". On a full size roundabout, it is
reasonable to use the "crossing the line" rule, because there are several
car lengths between the line and my car if I set off from the driver's left;
on a mini-roundabout there's much less than a car length so the decision
point has to be further back if approach speeds are similar.

On 23/04/2019 14:07, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/04/2019 13:22, NY wrote:
Anyone who gives priority to a farm tractor pulling out of a farm
track, over traffic that is bombing along (the equivalent of) an A
road, needs their head examining.

115mph,Â* Opel Manta. Citroen pulls out in front. Dual carriageway. sees
me moves, to fast lane as I move to fast lane he ducks back as I duck
back..and fortunately stays put.





Drives like an idiot too.

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:27:29 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 23/04/2019 11:30, NY wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Which includes "Vehicles entering the junction must give way to vehicles
approaching from the right, circulating the central island." - i.e.
priority only exists once there is a vehicle on the roundabout.

True, but it's like a pedestrian crossing where the official rules are
that you only have to stop when someone has actually set foot on the
crossing. In the *real* world you need to anticipate when the car (in the
case of a mini roundabout) or pedestrian (in the case of a zebra) is
about to do so, and slow down in anticipation - or keep going at the same
speed (without accelerating) if you judge that you will not make the
car/person have to change speed/course, and will be clear of their path
by the time they arrive.

Not quite the same though. If you driving onto a mini-roundabout means
that someone approaching on your right, but not yet on the roundabout has
to brake or even stop, that is just as legitimate as you doing so for
them, as no priority exists. Of course you have to be aware of their
proximity and approach speed and may well decide that asserting your right
to continue is not sensible.

I would never be so arrogant as to pull out in front a car that was
approaching from the right, thinking that it was acceptable to make him
brake hard simply because he hadn't yet crossed the line. In both the case
of a roundabout and of a zebra crossing, I'd say that the rule should begin
some way before the line, so that you judge where the person will be in
relation to the line when you arrive at the roundabout or crossing, and be
prepared to stop for them if they have priority. If I pulled out from a
roundabout to turn right (which requires driving fairly slowly) and a car
that was going faster because it was taking the straight through route had
to brake to avoid hitting me, I'd deserve every decibel of his horn, on the
basis of "never do anything that would make another road user have to slow
down, stop or change course to avoid you". On a full size roundabout, it is
reasonable to use the "crossing the line" rule, because there are several
car lengths between the line and my car if I set off from the driver's left;
on a mini-roundabout there's much less than a car length so the decision
point has to be further back if approach speeds are similar.

Just three comments. If you extend this to its logical conclusion,
all the vehicles would have to stop then we would be back where this
discussion started, deciding who should go first. So far as another
vehicle having to slow down is concerned, I thought drivers were
supposed to approach road junctions and other hazards with caution.
And finally, I thought the point of mini-roundabouts was that the
rules were *exactly* the same as for any other roundabout.

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 11:36:34 AM UTC+1, Bertie Doe wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message
....

Tim Streater wrote:
Which is a complete pigs ear. The French had this due to Priorite a
droite. So everyone can enter the roundabout and anyone already on it
has to give way to people entering.

Spotted the obvious flaw with this?

The roundabout at the Arc de Triomphe comes to mind.


To add to the fun, the rules in France can vary depending on which town
youre in. Bloody nightmare.

That used to be the case but the high level of prangs led to nationalisation


Looks like that's the case now. I've been looking at street view in the town that I remember and priority looks "conventional" now. Oddly though, on street view, Google have blurred out the "Priority a droit" text on many of the give way signs.

Tim

"Scott" wrote in message
...
So far as another
vehicle having to slow down is concerned, I thought drivers were
supposed to approach road junctions and other hazards with caution.

Yes: approach with caution and be prepared either to stop or to keep going
once you're read the road and worked out, based on the latest sighting of
other cars, whether you need to stop (because the other car is too close) or
can keep going (because he's a comfortable margin outside the threshold
go/no-go decision point). Sometimes you can see immediately that you will
definitely have to stop. Sometimes, if there is *good* (*) visibility of the
road coming from your right, you can see that you can almost certainly go
without needing to slow down beyond a speed to negotiate the roundabout.
Usually it's somewhere between these two points and you have to defer the
decision until you get closer, mindful of the fact that the closer you get,
the shorter is the distance that remains in which you will be able to stop
if you decide it's necessary (and therefore the slower you need to be
going).

And finally, I thought the point of mini-roundabouts was that the
rules were *exactly* the same as for any other roundabout.

They are. All I was saying was that because the distance between you and the
give way line on your right is closer, your decision point for the position
of the car on your right may be before the give way line on a mini
roundabout, whereas it may be after the give way line on a big roundabout.


(*) Sadly more and more roundabouts have a sign board or just a little fence
to spoil your view of approaching traffic from the right in the last few
seconds, meaning that you have to stop in a situation where if you hadn't
had your view blocked by the sign/fence in the last couple of seconds you
could have worked out that it was safe to continue. That's done for "safety
reasons", which is the "anyone can be safe if they are forced to stop"
school of rule-making :-) https://goo.gl/maps/WxBTd5FZJRGqnNUJ8 is an
interesting one. That photo was taken in 2012. Now the chevrons have been
moved closer to the roundabout. Looking at the more recent aerial photo,
it's between the lamp post and the rear of the hard standing (which looks
like somewhere for the police to wait to nab people). Just where you need to
be looking to see how fast the car is going that has emerged from behind the
larch-lap fencing under the bridge. That's a full-size roundabout, not a
mini one, although the (deliberately) badly-placed sign can apply to a mini
roundabout as well,

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 5:10:00 PM UTC+1, Tim+ wrote:

Oddly though, on street view, Google have blurred out the "Priority a droit" text on many of the give way signs.


Oh ********. I meant "Cedez le passage".

Tim

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:19:40 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
So far as another
vehicle having to slow down is concerned, I thought drivers were
supposed to approach road junctions and other hazards with caution.

Yes: approach with caution and be prepared either to stop or to keep going
once you're read the road and worked out, based on the latest sighting of
other cars, whether you need to stop (because the other car is too close) or
can keep going (because he's a comfortable margin outside the threshold
go/no-go decision point). Sometimes you can see immediately that you will
definitely have to stop. Sometimes, if there is *good* (*) visibility of the
road coming from your right, you can see that you can almost certainly go
without needing to slow down beyond a speed to negotiate the roundabout.
Usually it's somewhere between these two points and you have to defer the
decision until you get closer, mindful of the fact that the closer you get,
the shorter is the distance that remains in which you will be able to stop
if you decide it's necessary (and therefore the slower you need to be
going).

In other words, the 'other' vehicle (to your right) is expected to
slow down and to exercise caution and your suggestion that it is
somehow wrong to cause another vehicle to slow down is misconceived.

And finally, I thought the point of mini-roundabouts was that the
rules were *exactly* the same as for any other roundabout.

They are. All I was saying was that because the distance between you and the
give way line on your right is closer, your decision point for the position
of the car on your right may be before the give way line on a mini
roundabout, whereas it may be after the give way line on a big roundabout.

Are you saying that priority starts before the vehicle enters the
roundabout (on a reading of Rule 161)? This is not what others are
saying. I would be interested to know how others interpret 'give
priority to traffic approaching from your right' in Rule 161.

(*) Sadly more and more roundabouts have a sign board or just a little fence
to spoil your view of approaching traffic from the right in the last few
seconds, meaning that you have to stop in a situation where if you hadn't
had your view blocked by the sign/fence in the last couple of seconds you
could have worked out that it was safe to continue. That's done for "safety
reasons", which is the "anyone can be safe if they are forced to stop"
school of rule-making :-) https://goo.gl/maps/WxBTd5FZJRGqnNUJ8 is an
interesting one. That photo was taken in 2012. Now the chevrons have been
moved closer to the roundabout. Looking at the more recent aerial photo,
it's between the lamp post and the rear of the hard standing (which looks
like somewhere for the police to wait to nab people). Just where you need to
be looking to see how fast the car is going that has emerged from behind the
larch-lap fencing under the bridge. That's a full-size roundabout, not a
mini one, although the (deliberately) badly-placed sign can apply to a mini
roundabout as well,

"Scott" wrote in message
...
Are you saying that priority starts before the vehicle enters the
roundabout (on a reading of Rule 161)? This is not what others are
saying. I would be interested to know how others interpret 'give
priority to traffic approaching from your right' in Rule 161.

At a roundabout, I would always regard the vehicle coming from my right,
irrespective of where it is, as being the one which has priority over me -
in the sense that if I misjudge the speed and distance of the car on my
right, any collision is 100% my fault. Irrespective of what the Highway Code
may say, I don't regard traffic coming from my right as being equal priority
to me and then magically change as it crosses the line; by the time it
crosses the line I've already decided whether I can pull out ahead of it or
will have to wait, based on his speed and position, so I've already thought
"this is the traffic which I must give way to if it proves to be necessary".

All junctions have one stream that has priority and one or more streams that
must give way to that priority stream. according to standard rules. The
priorities are dependent on:

- priority to traffic on your right, on a roundabout

- priority to traffic that is on a major road (cross roads or T-junction
sign only), when on a minor road (give way signs and dash lines across the
road)

- when turning from a major road into a minor road, or at a green traffic
light, priority to oncoming traffic that is coming towards me

- priority to traffic that has a green traffic light: obviously this changes
in rotation to give everyone a turn

- priority to traffic that is already on a motorway or dual carriageway,
over traffic that is joining at a slip road

Are there any junctions in the UK where, at any instant, more than one
stream has equal priority and therefore no-one knows who must give way to
whom? The nearest example I can think of is the American 4-way stop
junction, but even that has rules of precedence, based on time (order of
arrival) rather than space (position on road, road markings etc).

On 23/04/2019 14:27, NY wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 23/04/2019 11:30, NY wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Which includes "Vehicles entering the junction must give way to
vehicles approaching from the right, circulating the central
island." - i.e. priority only exists once there is a vehicle on the
roundabout.

True, but it's like a pedestrian crossing where the official rules
are that you only have to stop when someone has actually set foot on
the crossing. In the *real* world you need to anticipate when the car
(in the case of a mini roundabout) or pedestrian (in the case of a
zebra) is about to do so, and slow down in anticipation - or keep
going at the same speed (without accelerating) if you judge that you
will not make the car/person have to change speed/course, and will be
clear of their path by the time they arrive.

Not quite the same though. If you driving onto a mini-roundabout means
that someone approaching on your right, but not yet on the roundabout
has to brake or even stop, that is just as legitimate as you doing so
for them, as no priority exists. Of course you have to be aware of
their proximity and approach speed and may well decide that asserting
your right to continue is not sensible.

I would never be so arrogant as to pull out in front a car that was
approaching from the right, thinking that it was acceptable to make him
brake hard simply because he hadn't yet crossed the line.

No-one said brake hard. I said "you have to be aware of their proximity
and approach speed and may well decide that asserting your right to
continue is not sensible." The other driver should also be approaching
at a speed that enables them to stop.

In both the
case of a roundabout and of a zebra crossing, I'd say that the rule
should begin some way before the line, so that you judge where the
person will be in relation to the line when you arrive at the roundabout
or crossing, and be prepared to stop for them if they have priority. If
I pulled out from a roundabout to turn right (which requires driving
fairly slowly) and a car that was going faster because it was taking the
straight through route had to brake to avoid hitting me, I'd deserve
every decibel of his horn, on the basis of "never do anything that would
make another road user have to slow down, stop or change course to avoid
you".

Except of course that the other driver continuing is doing exactly that
to you, unless they are already over the line, in which case they have
priority.

SteveW

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
To add to the fun, the rules in France can vary depending on which town
youre in. Bloody nightmare.

That used to be the case but the high level of prangs led to
nationalisation


Looks like that's the case now. I've been looking at street view in the
town that I remember and priority looks "conventional" now. Oddly though,
on street view, Google have blurred out the "Priority a droit" text on
many of the give way signs.

I wonder how long it will be before the French authorities decide that all
the drivers who grew up with prioirté a droit have died out, so signs
countermanding that previous convention are no longer necessary.

Does France still mandate the use of those horrible yellow headlights, which
required non-French visitors to paint their headlamps with yellow paint,
under pain of causing French drivers to have apoplectic fits if they
encounter a car with white (tungsten or HID) headlights?


I was intrigued to see a 1963 "commentary drive" by a member of the IAM as
he drove from London to Bath along the A4. At one point in Newbury there was
(and still is) a roundabout where the high street joins the A4. Several cars
pull out from the side road into the A4 at the roundabout and the driver on
the A4 makes no comment about this (though he's fairly scathing of other
faults that he observes on his journey). I wonder if the rule about giving
way to traffic coming from your right on a roundabout was less mandatory
than it is now.

https://youtu.be/YIgskqk5PB4?t=220 - the car in front gives way to about 5
vehicles coming from his left (without any "what's this idiot doing stopping
on a roundabout" comment) and then the commentator says "and there's a
driver slowing down and signalling me to go, so I shall thank him" as if the
car joining the roundabout had priority but chose to let the commentator go
in spite of that. How times have changed!

Likeways at https://youtu.be/YIgskqk5PB4?t=423 there's a car waiting to pull
out from a side road, and the commentator says "he's waiting for me, so I'm
going to accept his courtesy", as if there was any doubt that he would wait:
it's the law, so why wouldn't he wait? I'd only comment if someone *didn't*
wait - or at least say "watch that car and make sure he doesn't look as if
he's creeping forwards" rather than acting all surprised that someone has
actually obeyed the law.

One interesting thing about that run: he's very aggressive by modern
standards at https://youtu.be/YIgskqk5PB4?t=52 when he encounters a car that
won't move over from Lane 2 to Lane 1. He flashes his headlights twice and
sounds his horn twice in long blasts. I'm not sure I'd have been *quite* as
pushy as that, for fear of provoking a road rage attack: but then road rage
probably didn't exist in those days, even though the driver did (not
surprisingly) give him a V sign. I like his comment about "I'm keeping a lot
of distance from him because we are travelling about 55" - I suppose that
was quite fast in those days, although motorways actually had no speed limit
in those days so you may well have encountered some high-performance cars
going a *lot* faster than that.

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 19:54:12 +0100, "NY" wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
.. .
Are you saying that priority starts before the vehicle enters the
roundabout (on a reading of Rule 161)? This is not what others are
saying. I would be interested to know how others interpret 'give
priority to traffic approaching from your right' in Rule 161.

At a roundabout, I would always regard the vehicle coming from my right,
irrespective of where it is, as being the one which has priority over me -
in the sense that if I misjudge the speed and distance of the car on my
right, any collision is 100% my fault. Irrespective of what the Highway Code
may say, I don't regard traffic coming from my right as being equal priority
to me and then magically change as it crosses the line; by the time it
crosses the line I've already decided whether I can pull out ahead of it or
will have to wait, based on his speed and position, so I've already thought
"this is the traffic which I must give way to if it proves to be necessary".

Actually, I agree that is the prudent approach. However, it does not
resolve the conundrum at the start of the discussions: what happens if
more than one vehicle is stationary at the same time? Who goes first?

All junctions have one stream that has priority and one or more streams that
must give way to that priority stream. according to standard rules. The
priorities are dependent on:

Are there no unmarked junctions anywhere in the UK any longer? I
would be surprised.

- priority to traffic on your right, on a roundabout

- priority to traffic that is on a major road (cross roads or T-junction
sign only), when on a minor road (give way signs and dash lines across the
road)

- when turning from a major road into a minor road, or at a green traffic
light, priority to oncoming traffic that is coming towards me

- priority to traffic that has a green traffic light: obviously this changes
in rotation to give everyone a turn

- priority to traffic that is already on a motorway or dual carriageway,
over traffic that is joining at a slip road

Are there any junctions in the UK where, at any instant, more than one
stream has equal priority and therefore no-one knows who must give way to
whom? The nearest example I can think of is the American 4-way stop
junction, but even that has rules of precedence, based on time (order of
arrival) rather than space (position on road, road markings etc).

Stop signs on approaches at both sides of a crossroads. If I am
turning left and the other driver (on the opposite side) is turning
right, conventionally I think I would be expected to go first, being
closer to my intended lane, but I suspect this is not supported by any
rule.

"Scott" wrote in message
...

Stop signs on approaches at both sides of a crossroads. If I am
turning left and the other driver (on the opposite side) is turning
right, conventionally I think I would be expected to go first, being
closer to my intended lane, but I suspect this is not supported by any
rule.

Or even for give way signs rather than stop: like you I'd expect left turn
(me) to have priority over the oncoming car that is turning right to go the
same way as me. If it's not enshrined in the HC, it ought to be.

What does the HC say about a car that is turning right at a give way/stop
sign having to give way to an oncoming car that is going straight across?
Everyone does it, but is it written in the HC anywhere?

Thinking of stop signs always reminds me of my grandpa telling me a story
about how he failed his first driving test (probably not long after they
were introduced). Even 50 years later, he was still a bit miffed. He was
approaching a crossroads with no sign in his direction. He treated it as a
give way, and the examiner failed him for not stopping *at a sign that
wasn't there*, maintaining that it was possible to see the shape of the back
of the stop sign for traffic coming towards him, and deduce that if *he* had
a stop sign, there should have been one (which had fallen down) for my
grandpa's direction. Grandpa was not best pleased, especially as the
examiner said when he got back to the test centre that it was grandpa's only
fault.

I wonder if there are any cross roads with a stop sign only for traffic
approaching the major road from the minor road in one direction, and not in
the opposite direction? Can you always infer that if the opposite traffic
has a stop sign, you will/should do as well? Or was the examiner being
unfair and too clever by half?

NY wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message


I wonder how long it will be before the French authorities decide that all
the drivers who grew up with prioirté a droit have died out, so signs
countermanding that previous convention are no longer necessary.

Does France still mandate the use of those horrible yellow headlights, which
required non-French visitors to paint their headlamps with yellow paint,
under pain of causing French drivers to have apoplectic fits if they
encounter a car with white (tungsten or HID) headlights?




Not since 1993 though you may still find the odd vehicle from before then
fitted with them.
It was the dastardly EU that told them to conform and not allow yellow for
new vehicles after that year.

There was is a school of thought that yellow wasnt as dazzling though the
French are alleged to have introduced them to identify home vehicles from
foreign ones.

What ever the reason before that date travelling in France at night was a
bit strange with a yellow gloom
everywhere with sodium road lighting and the yellow vehicle lights.

GH

On 23 Apr 2019 20:10:53 GMT, Marland
wrote:

NY wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message


I wonder how long it will be before the French authorities decide that all
the drivers who grew up with prioirté a droit have died out, so signs
countermanding that previous convention are no longer necessary.

Does France still mandate the use of those horrible yellow headlights, which
required non-French visitors to paint their headlamps with yellow paint,
under pain of causing French drivers to have apoplectic fits if they
encounter a car with white (tungsten or HID) headlights?




Not since 1993 though you may still find the odd vehicle from before then
fitted with them.
It was the dastardly EU that told them to conform and not allow yellow for
new vehicles after that year.

There was is a school of thought that yellow wasn’t as dazzling though the
French are alleged to have introduced them to identify home vehicles from
foreign ones.

I thought foreign vehicles visiting France had to be fitted with
yellow filters, or tinted yellow. so all would look the same.

NY wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...
Are you saying that priority starts before the vehicle enters the
roundabout (on a reading of Rule 161)? This is not what others are
saying. I would be interested to know how others interpret 'give
priority to traffic approaching from your right' in Rule 161.

At a roundabout, I would always regard the vehicle coming from my right,
irrespective of where it is, as being the one which has priority over me -
in the sense that if I misjudge the speed and distance of the car on my
right, any collision is 100% my fault. Irrespective of what the Highway Code
may say, I don't regard traffic coming from my right as being equal priority
to me and then magically change as it crosses the line; by the time it
crosses the line I've already decided whether I can pull out ahead of it or
will have to wait, based on his speed and position, so I've already thought
"this is the traffic which I must give way to if it proves to be necessary".

All junctions have one stream that has priority and one or more streams that
must give way to that priority stream. according to standard rules. The
priorities are dependent on:

- priority to traffic on your right, on a roundabout

- priority to traffic that is on a major road (cross roads or T-junction
sign only), when on a minor road (give way signs and dash lines across the
road)

- when turning from a major road into a minor road, or at a green traffic
light, priority to oncoming traffic that is coming towards me

- priority to traffic that has a green traffic light: obviously this changes
in rotation to give everyone a turn

- priority to traffic that is already on a motorway or dual carriageway,
over traffic that is joining at a slip road

Are there any junctions in the UK where, at any instant, more than one
stream has equal priority and therefore no-one knows who must give way to
whom? The nearest example I can think of is the American 4-way stop
junction, but even that has rules of precedence, based on time (order of
arrival) rather than space (position on road, road markings etc).

Where two lanes merge into one, and any tendency to think one lane has
precedence due to direction or road markings is negated by a "merge in
turn" sign?

--

Roger Hayter

NY wrote:

"Scott" wrote in message
...

Stop signs on approaches at both sides of a crossroads. If I am
turning left and the other driver (on the opposite side) is turning
right, conventionally I think I would be expected to go first, being
closer to my intended lane, but I suspect this is not supported by any
rule.

Or even for give way signs rather than stop: like you I'd expect left turn
(me) to have priority over the oncoming car that is turning right to go the
same way as me. If it's not enshrined in the HC, it ought to be.

What does the HC say about a car that is turning right at a give way/stop
sign having to give way to an oncoming car that is going straight across?
Everyone does it, but is it written in the HC anywhere?

Thinking of stop signs always reminds me of my grandpa telling me a story
about how he failed his first driving test (probably not long after they
were introduced). Even 50 years later, he was still a bit miffed. He was
approaching a crossroads with no sign in his direction. He treated it as a
give way, and the examiner failed him for not stopping *at a sign that
wasn't there*, maintaining that it was possible to see the shape of the back
of the stop sign for traffic coming towards him, and deduce that if *he* had
a stop sign, there should have been one (which had fallen down) for my
grandpa's direction. Grandpa was not best pleased, especially as the
examiner said when he got back to the test centre that it was grandpa's only
fault.

I wonder if there are any cross roads with a stop sign only for traffic
approaching the major road from the minor road in one direction, and not in
the opposite direction? Can you always infer that if the opposite traffic
has a stop sign, you will/should do as well? Or was the examiner being
unfair and too clever by half?

I think the latter. It is at least possible that the sight lines and
road layout could enable a give way one side. OTOH, if your
grandfather failed to stop at a sold white line (did they have them in
those days?) he was on shaky ground.
--

Roger Hayter

Scott wrote:
On 23 Apr 2019 20:10:53 GMT, Marland
wrote:

NY wrote:
"Tim+" wrote in message


I wonder how long it will be before the French authorities decide that all
the drivers who grew up with prioirté a droit have died out, so signs
countermanding that previous convention are no longer necessary.

Does France still mandate the use of those horrible yellow headlights, which
required non-French visitors to paint their headlamps with yellow paint,
under pain of causing French drivers to have apoplectic fits if they
encounter a car with white (tungsten or HID) headlights?




Not since 1993 though you may still find the odd vehicle from before then
fitted with them.
It was the dastardly EU that told them to conform and not allow yellow for
new vehicles after that year.

There was is a school of thought that yellow wasnÂ’t as dazzling though the
French are alleged to have introduced them to identify home vehicles from
foreign ones.

I thought foreign vehicles visiting France had to be fitted with
yellow filters, or tinted yellow. so all would look the same.


It wasnt compulsory AFAIK,but advisable otherwise you had to put up with
being flashed ,hooted,swore at,set on fire depending on how bad a mood a
nearby Frenchman was in.
The French introduced their regs just before WW2 and soon had some trouble
with tear away drivers from a neighbouring country whom they just could
not persuade to follow local conventions, many mucked about ruining fields
while indulging in a bit of off-roading as well.

GH

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. .
A gridlocked roundabout is one where people will get out of their cars
and start biffing each other. It's also a *stupid* roundabout.

You still get gridlocked roundabouts in the UK if one of the exits gets
blocked further down the road and people queue across the entry so other
traffic is blocked from going in a direction other than the one that is
tailing back. But it's much less common than in countries which give
priority to traffic joining over traffic on the roundabout.

We arent allowed to enter a roundabout if it isnt possible to get
thru it. That avoids gridlocked roundabouts and works very well.

I'd though that it was the Netherlands which had that rule, rather than
France, but I agree that it would go hand-in-hand with the French
priorité-a-droit rule which is equally nonsensical. Anyone who gives
priority to a farm tractor pulling out of a farm track, over traffic that
is bombing along (the equivalent of) an A road, needs their head
examining.

I've never understood why Australia and/or NZ have the rule that right
-turning traffic on a fast road has priority over oncoming fast traffic,

Australia doesnt and I dont believe that NZ does either.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/r...ive-way-rules/

but I suppose it is to minimise the time that right-turners are stuck in
the middle of the road being a hazard to everyone else.

That can't fly either because you dont get to enter the fast
road if you can't move off with the rest of the traffic on it.

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
On 23/04/2019 11:30, NY wrote:
"Steve Walker" wrote in message
...
Which includes "Vehicles entering the junction must give way to
vehicles approaching from the right, circulating the central island." -
i.e. priority only exists once there is a vehicle on the roundabout.

True, but it's like a pedestrian crossing where the official rules are
that you only have to stop when someone has actually set foot on the
crossing. In the *real* world you need to anticipate when the car (in
the case of a mini roundabout) or pedestrian (in the case of a zebra) is
about to do so, and slow down in anticipation - or keep going at the
same speed (without accelerating) if you judge that you will not make
the car/person have to change speed/course, and will be clear of their
path by the time they arrive.

Not quite the same though. If you driving onto a mini-roundabout means
that someone approaching on your right, but not yet on the roundabout has
to brake or even stop, that is just as legitimate as you doing so for
them, as no priority exists. Of course you have to be aware of their
proximity and approach speed and may well decide that asserting your
right to continue is not sensible.

I would never be so arrogant as to pull out in front a car that was
approaching from the right, thinking that it was acceptable to make him
brake hard simply because he hadn't yet crossed the line. In both the case
of a roundabout and of a zebra crossing, I'd say that the rule should
begin some way before the line, so that you judge where the person will be
in relation to the line when you arrive at the roundabout or crossing, and
be prepared to stop for them if they have priority. If I pulled out from a
roundabout to turn right (which requires driving fairly slowly) and a car
that was going faster because it was taking the straight through route had
to brake to avoid hitting me, I'd deserve every decibel of his horn, on
the basis of "never do anything that would make another road user have to
slow down, stop or change course to avoid you". On a full size roundabout,
it is reasonable to use the "crossing the line" rule, because there are
several car lengths between the line and my car if I set off from the
driver's left; on a mini-roundabout there's much less than a car length so
the decision point has to be further back if approach speeds are similar.

We do it by judging who will enter the roundabout first given the
speed the cars are travelling at, and that works fine without any
specific rule on that.

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:23:14 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

We do it by

Who's that "we" you are constantly hallucinating about, senile Rodent? Is
that you, your senility and your psychopathy? That's three of you, so far.
Did I miss any of yous? BG

--
dennis@home to retarded senile Rot:
"sod off rod you don't have a clue about anything."
Message-ID:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:14:18 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH senile Ozzie asshole's latest troll****

SO many posts of you in this thread again ...and NOBODY gives a ****, senile
Rodent! Isn't it exactly as in your real life? LMAO

--
Sqwertz to Rot Speed:
"This is just a hunch, but I'm betting you're kinda an argumentative
asshole.
MID:

On 23/04/2019 20:31, NY wrote:

Does France still mandate the use of those horrible yellow headlights,
which
required non-French visitors to paint their headlamps with yellow paint,
under pain of causing French drivers to have apoplectic fits if they
encounter a car with white (tungsten or HID) headlights?

No.

All I needed last time was a beam shade sticker.

--
Email does not work

On 23/04/2019 20:35, Scott wrote:

Actually, I agree that is the prudent approach. However, it does not
resolve the conundrum at the start of the discussions: what happens if
more than one vehicle is stationary at the same time? Who goes first?


The car with the hardest looking blokes in it :-

--
Email does not work

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
You still get gridlocked roundabouts in the UK if one of the exits gets
blocked further down the road and people queue across the entry so other
traffic is blocked from going in a direction other than the one that is
tailing back. But it's much less common than in countries which give
priority to traffic joining over traffic on the roundabout.

We arent allowed to enter a roundabout if it isnt possible to get
thru it. That avoids gridlocked roundabouts and works very well.

That sounds like a good idea. I presume it works better for mini roundabouts
where you can see across the centre painted/raised circle to the exit on the
far side; it must be more difficult if it's a full size roundabout where
there is a large raised mound in the centre (*) which obscures your view of
whether the traffic is queued back on the far side.

Does it have the same problem that box junctions have, that if you are going
straight on, you find that as soon as a space becomes available, a car on
your left that is turning left takes the space because they are closer to it
and can reach it sooner? I was once stopped by the police for stopping on a
box junction, but the police believed me when I said that I set off as soon
as a space became available, but when I was half-way across the box, a car
on my left "stole" the gap that I had been aiming for.

What we tend to have in the UK on some very busy roundabouts are box zones
on the roundabout itself at each entry point, so you are allowed to enter,
but are not allowed to queue across the exit, preventing someone else
entering the roundabout. That works well - as long as people honour the box,
of course, which is always a problem.

Australia doesnt and I dont believe that NZ does either.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/r...ive-way-rules/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...road-rule.html
is the closest I can find to a description of what *used* to be the case
until 2012. A car which is on a major road and is turning left had to give
way to an oncoming car that was turning right into the same road. That
certainly sounds counter-intuitive. It's not quite what I *thought* the rule
was - I thought even a car that was going straight on along the major road
had to give way to the oncoming car that was turning right across its path,
but I probably misunderstood. ;-) I can see why they used to have that
rule - to minimise how long the oncoming car has to wait in the centre of
the road before it can turn - but it sounds scary if you aren't expecting
it. I bet there was utter confusion for a few days after it, as people
forgot that the rule no longer applied...


(*) In the UK, some roundabouts in rural areas have sculptures on the
central grassy circle to brighten the place up a bit - there's one near me
that has a shepherd and sheep dog tending a flock of a few sheep (all
artificial) which is slightly unnerving when you first see it ;-)
https://www.bridlingtonfreepress.co....bout-1-3261803

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 10:43:14 +0100, NY, an especially retarded,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:


We arent allowed to enter a roundabout if it isnt possible to get
thru it. That avoids gridlocked roundabouts and works very well.

That sounds like a good idea.

Wow! What a load of senile bull**** from you again, you despicable notorious
sucker of troll cock!

FLUSH all your usual lengthy senile drivel unread again

NY wrote
Rod Speed wrote

You still get gridlocked roundabouts in the UK if one of the exits gets
blocked further down the road and people queue across the entry so other
traffic is blocked from going in a direction other than the one that is
tailing back. But it's much less common than in countries which give
priority to traffic joining over traffic on the roundabout.

We arent allowed to enter a roundabout if it isnt possible to get
thru it. That avoids gridlocked roundabouts and works very well.

That sounds like a good idea. I presume it works better for mini
roundabouts where you can see across the centre painted/raised circle to
the exit on the far side;

Yes, I was only talking about those. Ours have all been
added in the last decade so we dont have any of the
full sized roundabouts because those can't easily be
added later because they are so much bigger. A few
places like Canberra have always had the big ones
but thats very uncommon here.

it must be more difficult if it's a full size roundabout where there is a
large raised mound in the centre (*) which obscures your view of whether
the traffic is queued back on the far side.

I can't think of any of our large roundabouts that have anything
much in the middle so you can't see if its congested. Ours all look
like that large one of yours you posted where you can see over
the center section easily. And even with when you cant see over
the center, you would always be able to see cars stopped in the
roundabout itself near where your road enters it anyway.

Does it have the same problem that box junctions have, that if you are
going straight on, you find that as soon as a space becomes available, a
car on your left that is turning left takes the space because they are
closer to it and can reach it sooner?

Not clear what you mean by box junctions, post a link to one
please. All our major junctions which arent mini roundabouts,
normally because a mini roundabout wont fit there now, have
lights and so the queuing happens behind the light white line.

They dont work as well as the mini roundabouts because
with lights there is inevitably quite a bit of time with no traffic
moving thru the junction at all when the lights are changing.

I was once stopped by the police for stopping on a box junction, but the
police believed me when I said that I set off as soon as a space became
available, but when I was half-way across the box, a car on my left
"stole" the gap that I had been aiming for.

Doesnt usually happen here because those
junctions are normally controlled by lights.

What we tend to have in the UK on some very busy roundabouts are box zones
on the roundabout itself at each entry point,

A link to one of those too please.

so you are allowed to enter, but are not allowed to queue across the exit,
preventing someone else entering the roundabout. That works well - as long
as people honour the box, of course, which is always a problem.

Australia doesnt and I dont believe that NZ does either.
https://www.nzta.govt.nz/resources/r...ive-way-rules/

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring...road-rule.html
is the closest I can find to a description of what *used* to be the case
until 2012. A car which is on a major road and is turning left had to give
way to an oncoming car that was turning right into the same road.

OK, never come across that one and clearly the link
I posted isnt relevant because of the change in 2012.

That certainly sounds counter-intuitive. It's not quite what I *thought*
the rule was - I thought even a car that was going straight on along the
major road had to give way to the oncoming car that was turning right
across its path, but I probably misunderstood. ;-)

Yeah, that was never the case in Victoria Australia.

I can see why they used to have that rule - to minimise how long the
oncoming car has to wait in the centre of the road before it can turn -
but it sounds scary if you aren't expecting it.

Particularly if its unique in the world,
would be a hell of a problem for tourists.

I bet there was utter confusion for a few days after it, as people forgot
that the rule no longer applied...

I dont recall any talk about it.

(*) In the UK, some roundabouts in rural areas have sculptures on the
central grassy circle to brighten the place up a bit -

Never seen that here. We do have some intersections with
fancy things commemorating the massive WW1 casualtys
and they are certainly tall enough so you cant see over them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:L...r_Memorial.jpg

there's one near me that has a shepherd and sheep dog tending a flock of
a few sheep (all artificial) which is slightly unnerving when you first
see it ;-)
https://www.bridlingtonfreepress.co....bout-1-3261803

We do have a plague of BIG things that the town is famous for
but they arent ever in the middle of roundabouts because they
are normally a building you can go inside etc.
https://edge.alluremedia.com.au/m/l/.../BigMerino.jpg

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 03:38:54 +1000, cantankerous trolling geezer Rodent
Speed, the auto-contradicting senile sociopath, blabbered, again:

FLUSH 113 lines of absolutely idiotic and off topic bull**** unread


--
The Natural Philosopher about senile Rot:
"Rod speed is not a Brexiteer. He is an Australian troll and arsehole."
Message-ID:

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Does it have the same problem that box junctions have, that if you are
going straight on, you find that as soon as a space becomes available, a
car on your left that is turning left takes the space because they are
closer to it and can reach it sooner?

Not clear what you mean by box junctions, post a link to one
please. All our major junctions which arent mini roundabouts,
normally because a mini roundabout wont fit there now, have
lights and so the queuing happens behind the light white line.

Ah, I wasn't sure whether box junctions had made it over to Oz - maybe they
have under a different name.

Here's an example https://goo.gl/maps/k2vJWLxesJS9F5GS7 The traffic which is
queuing for the traffic lights has to leave the side road on the left clear
so cars can turn left towards the lights or right towards the camera. The
rule is rather like your roundabouts: you can't enter the yellow hatched
zone unless your exit is clear so you won't have to stop on the hatching.

The problem that I was describing with box junctions is illustrated by the
silver car on the left. Supposing I was stopped immediately short of the box
(roughly level with the "C" of the Castlegate label), wanting to follow the
dark estate car through the lights. Suppose the silver car was wanting to
turn left to go in the same direction as me. If the estate car moved
forwards and made a space there would be a "race" between me going straight
on and the silver car turning left, which the silver car may win because he
is slightly closer. Now suppose there is a whole queue of cars behind the
silver and black cars which *all* turn left; I would then never get chance
to cross the box because every time a space beyond the box becomes available
it is immediately taken by a left-turning car. Sometimes people don't have
much sense of fair play: they should alternate between one car from my
direction and one car from the left hand road.

In article , NY
writes
"ss" wrote in message
...
On 22/04/2019 16:01, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Er, priority to the right ?

I was going to say the same, but then....
All 3 drivers have someone to their right.

That is one of the failure modes of mini roundabouts: they are prone to
deadlock when no-one can go because all three/four streams of traffic
have equal priority when everyone has someone to their right. What is
needed is a sign at one of the entrance roads to imply that this road
has priority over the others when there is deadlock. Once one car has
gone (assuming there isn't anyone behind that car) then one of the
streams no longer has anyone to its right and can go, and once that car
has gone, the one in the third direction can go, and so on.
With a Land Rover Defender I have never found it a problem.
--
bert

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:21:45 +0100, NY, an especially retarded,
troll-feeding, senile idiot, blathered:

Not clear what you mean by box junctions, post a link to one
please. All our major junctions which arent mini roundabouts,
normally because a mini roundabout wont fit there now, have
lights and so the queuing happens behind the light white line.

Ah, I wasn't sure whether box junctions had made it over to Oz - maybe they
have under a different name.

I'm not sure, but I'm guessing now that you must be about as old and senile
as your Australian senile counterpart who is 85 years old, you troll-feeding
senile idiot. BG

bert wrote:
In article , NY
writes
"ss" wrote in message
...
On 22/04/2019 16:01, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Er, priority to the right ?

I was going to say the same, but then....
All 3 drivers have someone to their right.

That is one of the failure modes of mini roundabouts: they are prone to
deadlock when no-one can go because all three/four streams of traffic
have equal priority when everyone has someone to their right. What is
needed is a sign at one of the entrance roads to imply that this road
has priority over the others when there is deadlock. Once one car has
gone (assuming there isn't anyone behind that car) then one of the
streams no longer has anyone to its right and can go, and once that car
has gone, the one in the third direction can go, and so on.

With a Land Rover Defender I have never found it a problem.

Prince Phillip in his Land Rover thought the same till the Kia hit him.

GH

"NY" wrote in message
o.uk...
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
Does it have the same problem that box junctions have, that if you are
going straight on, you find that as soon as a space becomes available, a
car on your left that is turning left takes the space because they are
closer to it and can reach it sooner?

Not clear what you mean by box junctions, post a link to one
please. All our major junctions which arent mini roundabouts,
normally because a mini roundabout wont fit there now, have
lights and so the queuing happens behind the light white line.

Ah, I wasn't sure whether box junctions had made it over to Oz - maybe
they have under a different name.

Cant say I have ever noticed one here.

Here's an example https://goo.gl/maps/k2vJWLxesJS9F5GS7 The traffic which
is queuing for the traffic lights has to leave the side road on the left
clear so cars can turn left towards the lights or right towards the
camera.

Yeah, looks like a useful idea. We do in fact have an intersection like that
here that I use about half the time I head out, and its likely got a similar
volume of traffic to the one you posted a link too. No box junction tho,
and some do stop across the intersection. Not a huge amount of traffic
coming out of the side road tho.

The rule is rather like your roundabouts: you can't enter the yellow
hatched zone unless your exit is clear so you won't have to stop on the
hatching.

The problem that I was describing with box junctions is illustrated by the
silver car on the left. Supposing I was stopped immediately short of the
box (roughly level with the "C" of the Castlegate label), wanting to
follow the dark estate car through the lights. Suppose the silver car was
wanting to turn left to go in the same direction as me. If the estate car
moved forwards and made a space there would be a "race" between me going
straight on and the silver car turning left, which the silver car may win
because he is slightly closer. Now suppose there is a whole queue of cars
behind the silver and black cars which *all* turn left; I would then never
get chance to cross the box because every time a space beyond the box
becomes available it is immediately taken by a left-turning car. Sometimes
people don't have much sense of fair play: they should alternate between
one car from my direction and one car from the left hand road.

Yeah, I normally do let the cars entering do so even tho legally I dont
have to.