A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

Not sure I'm afraid, but St Luke's local to me do PAT test, and will
therefore take most things.

What they don't do, though, is check that they actually work

--
Cheers, Rob

On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:08:12 UTC+1, ss wrote:

A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and

no. Not unless you buy the equipment, do the course and are already familiar with basic electrical concepts. And tbh the courses seem often open to question.

what checks are required,

PAT test

as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

either give them to a charity that sells electrical goods, or pay to have them pat tested. It's not much.


NT

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 18:08:09 +0100, ss wrote:

A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

British Heart Foundation take electrical goods, at least down here in the
Surrey/Sussex area.

HTH.

--
TOJ.

On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

PAT testing: worth posting on FB if there is a local page, and asking
around if you have any contacts in Rotary, U3A, British Legion, Lions,
etc. I have a couple of mates who have the kit and qualifications, one
because his wife used to have a shop, the other who has a small
business. Both found it worth doing from the business viewpoint, and
they are now happy to do it free for friends, family, and good causes.

"ss" wrote in message
...
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice

Yes, but that won't satisfy the charity shops.

and
what checks are required,

The standard PAT tests

as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

Usually they need a proper PAT to be resold by the shop. Some have
access to a tame tester, but many don't.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:31:45 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
What they don't do, though, is check that they actually work

Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?

Owain

The Other John Wrote in message:
On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 18:08:09 +0100, ss wrote:

A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

British Heart Foundation take electrical goods, at least down here in the
Surrey/Sussex area.


Ditto here in Cambridgeshire, so probably standard?
--
Chris French

On 15/10/2018 20:27, John Rumm wrote:
On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc
some elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being
tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in
case there are faults although items still work ok.

Usually they need a proper PAT to be resold by the shop. Some have
access to a tame tester, but many don't.

They have tried several places and they wouldnt take electrical goods,
I think most are low income and wont be able to afford to pay for
testing but just want to help others.

John Rumm wrote:
On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc
some elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being
tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in
case there are faults although items still work ok.

Usually they need a proper PAT to be resold by the shop. Some have
access to a tame tester, but many don't.

And what about those who do not care if it works and just want it for
spares?

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 06:24:16 +1100, samchunk, better known as cantankerous
trolling senile geezer Rot Speed, wrote:

and
what checks are required,

The standard PAT tests

That answer was already provided! Once again: what makes you think an answer
is only valid when YOU confirm it, you pathological sociopathic idiot? tsk

--
Bill Wright to Rot Speed:
"That confirms my opinion that you are a despicable little ****."
MID:

On 15/10/2018 21:14, FMurtz wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc
some elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being
tested.

Problem solved the local councillor is taking them to distribute to
those in need.

On 15/10/2018 20:34, wrote:
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:31:45 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
What they don't do, though, is check that they actually work

Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?

If the item is a computer, are they going to test every function?

--
Max Demian

On Monday, 15 October 2018 22:47:25 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?
If the item is a computer, are they going to test every function?

From an electrical point of view a computer just needs to be switched on to be considered fully functional.

Something like a food processor needs to be tested for safety interlocks etc working. This is not just for "PAT Testing" but also for product safety where the item is to be sold.

Owain

Well, how long is a piece of string, and how long have you got.


Basically, if its got a moulded on plug and the correct fuse is in it and
there is no sign of damage, then you can sell stuff, and I've done so
myself, showing it working.
However it gets more complicated for charities and shops. I think shops
like cash converters and real second hand shops do test for insulation and
any problems or if the device has been recalled and the item they have was
not modified.


Personally, if you are giving to charity shops, and the device is older than
about 10 years or was not bought in this country, best not to do much with
it.
Things like lights can and do lead a rough life and the wiring has to be
double insulated. I mean I have a table lamp. its made of granite and
plastic, yet its cable is only single insulated two core. Nobody wants it.



I guess its insurance for small companies and charity shops. they do not
have it.

It has been my experience though that the most dangerous things in the
electrical goods line is the wall wart.
I've had them come apart, go literally up in smoke and flames and the wires
to the appliance actually catch fire. In one case a psu managed to weld
itself to a coffee table.
Another dell laptop supply set fire to the carpet.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"ss" wrote in message
...
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they would
prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case there
are faults although items still work ok.

I think its very complicated. If its a very complex device, say a set top
box smart tv or computer, asll they can really do is prove it powers up and
does something and is safe..
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
wrote in message
...
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:31:45 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
What they don't do, though, is check that they actually work

Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?

Owain

Yes well OK but I do hope he has public liability cover or he might find
him/herself being sued for damages or manslaughter if its fatal.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"ss" wrote in message
...
On 15/10/2018 21:14, FMurtz wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.

Problem solved the local councillor is taking them to distribute to those
in need.

On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:08:12 UTC+1, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK at that instant in time.
Which is better than nothing.
A proper additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is much better but the same rule applies.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:08:12 UTC+1, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK at
that instant in time.
Which is better than nothing.

A proper additional inspection, especially of any earth
wires and safety is much better but the same rule applies.

No the same rule doesnt apply. Its trivial to see that
it hasnt deteriorated and will not fail any time soon.

On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:
Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time.

They do not, and the appliance must be inspected BEFORE it is tested, to ensure (as far as reasonably practicable, in accordance with the guidelines) that it is safe to test without harming the person doing the testing.

Owain

On 16/10/2018 09:26, harry wrote:
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:08:12 UTC+1, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and
what checks are required, as they are binning quite a few that they
would prefer to pass on to someone but are slightly panicky now in case
there are faults although items still work ok.

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK at that instant in time.
Which is better than nothing.
A proper additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is much better but the same rule applies.

Proper inspection of the item is part of the PAT testing process. That
includes both visual and electrical checks on the cable condition and
earth continuity.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 15 Oct 2018 15:10:33 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Monday, 15 October 2018 22:47:25 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?
If the item is a computer, are they going to test every function?

From an electrical point of view a computer just needs to be
switched on to be considered fully functional.

Something like a food processor needs to be tested for safety
interlocks etc working. This is not just for "PAT Testing" but
also for product safety where the item is to be sold.

And to be able to answer (truly) the inevitable question "Does it
work?"

On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 07:59:06 UTC+1, Brian Gaff wrote:
Yes well OK but I do hope he has public liability cover or he might find
him/herself being sued for damages or manslaughter if its fatal.
Brian

good point unless those 'in need' are the local euthanasia club. ;-)




...
On 15/10/2018 21:14, FMurtz wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
On 15/10/2018 18:08, ss wrote:
A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.

Problem solved the local councillor is taking them to distribute to those
in need.

On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 10:56:50 UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:
Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time.

They do not, and the appliance must be inspected BEFORE it is tested, to ensure (as far as reasonably practicable, in accordance with the guidelines) that it is safe to test without harming the person doing the testing.

Owain

I don;t think that is true and deosn;t make any sense anyway.
The reason for PAT testing nis to make sure something is safe to use.
The poerson that uses a PAT tested must be qualified to use it and knnow what they are doing. If you want something tested you may have no idea whether it will pass or fail or be really dangerous, that is what the PAT machine and the person doing the test is meant to find out, NOT the person that wants the applience checked.

On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK at that instant in time.
Which is better than nothing.
A proper additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is much better but the same rule applies.

I take it you don't know what a PAT test consists of


NT

On 15/10/2018 20:34, wrote:
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:31:45 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
What they don't do, though, is check that they actually work

Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?


I don't think so - I made a casual comment about what's to go wrong when
I bought a hifi turntable recently, and he made the point that they
don't test if they work, just that they're safe.

In the case of the turntable, the platter doesn't spin (idler wheel
doesn't engage, not got round to looking at it yet) - so would have
failed the most basic test! Don't have the heart to take it back.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 15/10/2018 19:14, wrote:
PAT test

Portable Appliance Test test?

In article ,
wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time. Which is better than nothing. A proper
additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is
much better but the same rule applies.

I take it you don't know what a PAT test consists of

Sadly, to a great many people the test consists of pluging the appliance
into the test box and getting a red or green light,

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 18:34:04 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time. Which is better than nothing. A proper
additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is
much better but the same rule applies.

I take it you don't know what a PAT test consists of

Sadly, to a great many people the test consists of pluging the appliance
into the test box and getting a red or green light,

Those must be confused if they get a red and a green.


NT

On 16/10/2018 18:18, mm0fmf wrote:
On 15/10/2018 19:14, wrote:
PAT test

Portable Appliance Test test?

It's one of those odd ones. Just saying, "I need to do a PAT," sounds
silly and "PA test" sounds like you're going to do a sound check.

SteveW

In article ,
writes:
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:31:45 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
What they don't do, though, is check that they actually work

Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?

No, but it often makes sense to do that too, depending
on the reason for the test (e.g. periodic, or once off
after repair or prior to putting on the market, etc).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
writes:
On Monday, 15 October 2018 22:47:25 UTC+1, Max Demian wrote:
Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?
If the item is a computer, are they going to test every function?

From an electrical point of view a computer just needs to be switched on to be considered fully functional.

Something like a food processor needs to be tested for safety interlocks etc working. This is not just for "PAT Testing" but also for product safety where the item is to be sold.

Interlocks and other safety features are part of a PAT test,
as is suitability of the piece of equipment for the purpose
it's being used (e.g. a hot air paint stripper with nothing
wrong with it would be a fail if it was provided to dry hair)
but a functional test isn't strictly part of a PAT test - the
appliance doesn't actually need to work - it just needs to be
safe.

Generally speaking, a functional test will require different
tools/test equipment and more specific knowledge of the appliance.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
writes:
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:08:12 UTC+1, ss wrote:

A few people on local facebook trying to give to charity shops etc some
elctrical goods, they are being refused due to items not being tested.
Is the checking of household electrical items DIYable for a novice and

no. Not unless you buy the equipment, do the course and are already familiar with basic electrical concepts. And tbh the courses seem often open to question.

You need the two C&G 2377 certificates, which are specifically intended
to be accessible to non-electricians (e.g. in most offices, you will
find someone who knows ohms law, the difference between milliohms and
megohms, and how to wire a plug, which is pretty much what's required
as a prerequisite). The course and exam are usually taught over two days,
one exam at the end of each day. Anyone in this newsgroup is likely to
find it a doddle.

Secondly, you need a PAT tester and it will need periodic calibration.

Finally, you need insurance cover.

The last two items can be covered by the charity shop if they have
enough throughput to justify doing electrical appliances, purchase a
tester, and check with their insurer for cover, which shouldn't be a
problem if the person doing the test has the C&G 2377 certificates.

I have put together some notes here for Repair Cafes (which is a similer
use case): https://wiki.restarters.net/PAT_testing

I occasionally do PAT training for Repair Cafe volunteers.
Unfortunately, my presentation material contains copyright information
which I only got permission to use in my training sessions. The Restart
Project was looking to get permission from the copyright holder to make
it public, but I didn't hear any more about that so maybe they failed
or didn't get around to it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 18:08:18 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
On 15/10/2018 20:34, wrote:
On Monday, 15 October 2018 18:31:45 UTC+1, RJH wrote:
What they don't do, though, is check that they actually work

Isn't a functional test part of the inspection and testing procedure?


I don't think so - I made a casual comment about what's to go wrong when
I bought a hifi turntable recently, and he made the point that they
don't test if they work, just that they're safe.

In the case of the turntable, the platter doesn't spin (idler wheel
doesn't engage, not got round to looking at it yet) - so would have
failed the most basic test! Don't have the heart to take it back.

I was looking at freegle and someone was offering an item that wasnlt working TV/monitor of similar and stated that it might just need a soldering iron to fix it.
I'm not sure if free things need to be PAT tested. But one of the reasons we don't let people borrow equipemnt outside the lab is electrical safety evenm if they have been PAT tested.

On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 18:34:04 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time. Which is better than nothing. A proper
additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is
much better but the same rule applies.

I take it you don't know what a PAT test consists of

Sadly, to a great many people the test consists of pluging the appliance
into the test box and getting a red or green light,

So what is so wring in that.

https://www.rapidonline.com/seaward-...est-50-90-4320

or are yuo saying that there is only one type of PAT tester that can be brought or that they all do the ssame .

https://www.rapidonline.com/seaward

above is a list of products depending on what needs testing and that's just one 'make'

On 17/10/2018 13:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 18:34:04 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time. Which is better than nothing. A proper
additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is
much better but the same rule applies.

I take it you don't know what a PAT test consists of

Sadly, to a great many people the test consists of pluging the appliance
into the test box and getting a red or green light,

So what is so wring in that.

The problem is the bit of the test you do before you even reach for the
test equipment, will find the vast majority of your failures. So if you
rely only on the machine, you will pass lots of dangerous stuff.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 17/10/2018 13:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 18:34:04 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time. Which is better than nothing. A proper
additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is
much better but the same rule applies.

I take it you don't know what a PAT test consists of

Sadly, to a great many people the test consists of pluging the appliance
into the test box and getting a red or green light,

So what is so wring in that.

The problem is the bit of the test you do before you even reach for the
test equipment, will find the vast majority of your failures. So if you
rely only on the machine, you will pass lots of dangerous stuff.

Indeed.
When you see someone starting off by reaching for the PAT tester,
it's a sure sign they haven't got a clue what they're doing.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Wednesday, 17 October 2018 22:21:44 UTC+1, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 17/10/2018 13:14, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 18:34:04 UTC+1, charles wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 16 October 2018 09:26:21 UTC+1, harry wrote:

Purely electrical tests (eg PAT tester) show that the appliance is OK
at that instant in time. Which is better than nothing. A proper
additional inspection, especially of any earth wires and safety is
much better but the same rule applies.

I take it you don't know what a PAT test consists of

Sadly, to a great many people the test consists of pluging the appliance
into the test box and getting a red or green light,

So what is so wring in that.

The problem is the bit of the test you do before you even reach for the
test equipment, will find the vast majority of your failures. So if you
rely only on the machine, you will pass lots of dangerous stuff.

Indeed.
When you see someone starting off by reaching for the PAT tester,
it's a sure sign they haven't got a clue what they're doing.

Yup. Most of the PAT test does not involve the insulation/earth test.


NT

On Tue, 16 Oct 2018 11:06:08 +0100, John Rumm
wrote:

Proper inspection of the item is part of the PAT testing process. That
includes both visual and electrical checks on the cable condition and
earth continuity.

I was asked the following question, by someone who has the testing gear and the
certificate and course to use it. He inspected and tested a hair straightening
iron (resistive heater, knob thermostat -- so an unusual waveform is unlikely,
it's probably a on-off bimetal control).

Visually all is in order, the unit gets hot but not smoking hot, the thermostat
cycles as expected. Tester shows "all lights green".

However: set to the highest temperature of 180°C, the tester shows an electrical
load of 400 Watts. The device is marked "Max. 40W".

Pass or fail?

(Mind, this is strictly speaking VDE0700/0701, not PAT.) First, I thought he did
a good job and used his head and eyes.

Second, I think "Max. 40W" means the maximum is 40 Watts, and cannot ever mean
"400 Watts and a duty cycle of 10%" -- not with a bang-bang bimetal thermostat
cycling in minutes.

Still, I don't know the correct answer: the device is out of spec, as listed on
the device itself, on the plate with the Class marking, the CE symbol, etc.

However, googling for similar devices, 400 W is a reasonable value, 40 W seems
very low. So it may be a typo on the rating.


Thomas Prufer