Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).

On 08/09/18 01:38, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).


Save a lot of time and effort, let the fox have a snack.

On 08/09/2018 06:40, Richard wrote:
On 08/09/18 01:38, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).


Save a lot of time and effort, let the fox have a snack.
Sadly foxes are not satisfied with a snack, they will kill them all and
take away what they need.

On 08/09/2018 08:08, Broadback wrote:
On 08/09/2018 06:40, Richard wrote:
On 08/09/18 01:38, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).


Save a lot of time and effort, let the fox have a snack.
Sadly foxes are not satisfied with a snack, they will kill them all and
take away what they need.


That makes them almost human.

--
Adam

On 08/09/2018 01:38, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?


PIR and an electric fence? Forget it. Ring fencing around the whole
rabbit pen that is on 24hours a day is needed if the pen is not secure.



--
Adam

HI Tim

We have similar situation - with us it's the chickens that the foxes are
after.

Foxes aren't daft - we found that an ordinary cattle fencer attached to
a piece of the 'electric' fencing ribbon about 8" off the ground, on
insulating stand-offs outside the run around the chicken-wire mesh
pretty soon convinced the fox to go and raid somebody-else's henhouse.

Took one of our dogs three goes to work it out though.... he never was
the sharpest knife in the box!

Adrian

On 08/09/2018 01:38, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).

On Saturday, 8 September 2018 01:38:04 UTC+1, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).

Foxes will dig under fences overnight. The run needs a wire mesh floor, or if too big for that, a bit of the fence wire turned outwards horizontally along the ground. (buried preferably).
They can jump a six foot high fence.

In message , T i m
writes
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Foxes are opportunists. Chances are it will look elsewhere tonight.

Don't assume they only hunt at night.

Cheapest electric fence is single strand with woven in conductors. The
horse world use tape because it is more visible.
For a lot more money, you can get electrified sheep netting.
Foxes are good jumpers: 4' or so.

I think commercial fence energisers are 6kV .

Don't know about ground wire. Most livestock have at least 3 feet on the
ground when in contact.
--
Tim Lamb

I'd be more worried about the foxes digging down well below the bottom of
the fences if any area of it is on soil.
Normally electric fencing is pulsed at a very high voltage, but current
limited so it cannot do any harm. You often find a kind of conductive tape
stuff as well. I have had shocks off them but apart from a curse they seem
to do no harm to us. I guess its due to the voltage since there is no real
earth return of such.

The trouble with foxes are that if you remove the ones in the immediate
vicinity, there are now so many another lot move in in a few months.

One side effect of the pulsed fences can be electrical interference though,
as effectively you are putting a long aerial not a pulsed high voltage
spike, so ticking noises happen and this can cause break up of digital tv or
noise on radios nearby.

Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"T i m" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).

If you are feeding the foxes and many people do that is why they come in the
first place!
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Richard" wrote in message
news
On 08/09/18 01:38, T i m wrote:
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Apparently, along with the sound of the fox crying in frustration, the
other noise was the rabbits 'thumping' the floor of the hutch (it
sounds like a nailgun). ;-)

So, assuming that now the fox knows there are there (well, the are
indoors tonight) it might come back for another go ... plus thoughts
of similar in the future, does anyone here who has experience of
electric fences or anti fox protection have any tips for us please?

Googling around it seems that to deter a fox you need between 3 to 5kV
and I was thinking of either running some wire round the hutch on
standoffs (so the rabbits couldn't get to it from the inside).

If I was to protect the top, would I have to also provide some earthed
wires and would (potentially) dry concrete provide a good enough earth
on the ground in the first place?

I could (and still might) attach some stronger galv steel mesh to the
outside of the cage parts (the existing mesh is on the inside of the
frame) but that might not deter them from trying and annoying the
neighbours (and ****ing off the rabbits).

Any electric protection could be on some PIR's so it would only arm
when movement was detected outside the hutch and even dusk to dawn?

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).


Save a lot of time and effort, let the fox have a snack.

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 08:36:42 +0100, ARW
wrote:

snip

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.



PIR and an electric fence? Forget it.

Ok.

Ring fencing around the whole
rabbit pen that is on 24hours a day is needed if the pen is not secure.

I may not have explained it properly but it might not make any
difference ...

My question was really about their fully enclosed, wood framed, square
mesh wire (not chicken wire) in-filled high level hutch on a similarly
constructed ground level ground floor 'run', all standing on concrete.

I'm pretty sure no fox could open nor force their way into this
structure but I was initially looking to provide some anti-fox
interest-deterrent. The same logic as spraying a cat with water etc?

The primary reason for something that might quickly dissuade a fox is
because of the resultant noise (fox and rabbits stomping) and it
annoying the neighbours.

Now, it's quite possible (I'm only guessing) that that fox (those
foxes) had already given up as no one or thing sent them on their way,
but we put the rabbits inside the house (in a temporary run / hutch)
to avoid any issues for now and before we rig up anything else (be it
a CCTV / intruder system possibly with remote activity alert (this is
round my Mums and she's fairly deaf) or electric defences etc).

Now, in addition to this hutch / run on the concrete (which also has a
larger modular steel boundary / patio then can be have access to if
the weather isn't nice) plus they have a bigger open topped modular
steel fenced area on the grass that can be moved around (and different
shapes at the same time because of it's modular 'panel' nature).

Whilst we had considered the security of this open run on the lawn,
Mum is generally about when the rabbits are out on the lawn run and
(FWIW and things may have changed now) never seen a fox in the back
garden in the 50 years she has lived there.

If this fox risk is now increased it may be that we have to build a
large rigid run for the lawn and could easily have a perimeter
electric wire barrier (I can 3D print all sorts of insulated standoffs
etc) that could protect down close to the ground (to defeat digging)
and further up the sides and over the top (run infill mesh could be
grounded).

Cheers, T i m

On 08/09/18 09:52, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 08:36:42 +0100, ARW
wrote:

snip

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.



PIR and an electric fence? Forget it.

Ok.

Ring fencing around the whole
rabbit pen that is on 24hours a day is needed if the pen is not secure.

I may not have explained it properly but it might not make any
difference ...

My question was really about their fully enclosed, wood framed, square
mesh wire (not chicken wire) in-filled high level hutch on a similarly
constructed ground level ground floor 'run', all standing on concrete.

I'm pretty sure no fox could open nor force their way into this
structure but I was initially looking to provide some anti-fox
interest-deterrent. The same logic as spraying a cat with water etc?

The primary reason for something that might quickly dissuade a fox is
because of the resultant noise (fox and rabbits stomping) and it
annoying the neighbours.

Now, it's quite possible (I'm only guessing) that that fox (those
foxes) had already given up as no one or thing sent them on their way,
but we put the rabbits inside the house (in a temporary run / hutch)
to avoid any issues for now and before we rig up anything else (be it
a CCTV / intruder system possibly with remote activity alert (this is
round my Mums and she's fairly deaf) or electric defences etc).

Now, in addition to this hutch / run on the concrete (which also has a
larger modular steel boundary / patio then can be have access to if
the weather isn't nice) plus they have a bigger open topped modular
steel fenced area on the grass that can be moved around (and different
shapes at the same time because of it's modular 'panel' nature).

Whilst we had considered the security of this open run on the lawn,
Mum is generally about when the rabbits are out on the lawn run and
(FWIW and things may have changed now) never seen a fox in the back
garden in the 50 years she has lived there.

If this fox risk is now increased it may be that we have to build a
large rigid run for the lawn and could easily have a perimeter
electric wire barrier (I can 3D print all sorts of insulated standoffs
etc) that could protect down close to the ground (to defeat digging)
and further up the sides and over the top (run infill mesh could be
grounded).

Cheers, T i m


https://www.electricfence-online.co....for/foxes.html

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 08:38:39 +0100, Adrian Brentnall
wrote:

HI Tim

Hi Adrian. ;-)

We have similar situation - with us it's the chickens that the foxes are
after.

Ah.

Foxes aren't daft

Well, they are Canidae aren't they. ;-)

Yes, my sister lost a pair of runner ducks to foxes. They managed to
slide open the fairly heavy (and not smooth running) wooden lid of
their bedroom area. ;-(

- we found that an ordinary cattle fencer attached to
a piece of the 'electric' fencing ribbon about 8" off the ground, on
insulating stand-offs outside the run around the chicken-wire mesh
pretty soon convinced the fox to go and raid somebody-else's henhouse.

That was the though here Adrian. I watched a Youtube video yesterday
where someone had put some electric fencing around a vineyard to deter
foxes (and other animals) and the foxes were jumping over it and
straight into the vines. So they put netting over the vines beside the
fence and they still jumped into it but couldn't get any further so
bounced back out and went elsewhere

Took one of our dogs three goes to work it out though.... he never was
the sharpest knife in the box!

You do get them. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 00:41:08 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

snip

Foxes will dig under fences overnight.

Understood.

The run needs a wire mesh floor, or if too big for that, a bit of the fence wire turned outwards horizontally along the ground. (buried preferably).

And or 5000V on a wire or two. ;-)

They can jump a six foot high fence.

They / it would have to have to have done that to get into Mums back
garden in the first place!

I've had an alternative / additional thought for the outside / day
run.

To build the rabbits a secure 'bolt hole', a heavy (1" x 8" sawn
pine?) wooden box (bunker) that has a rabbit sized opening in the
front going straight onto a right-angled baffle and then another
rabbit sized opening at either end to give access into the main 'box'.
It could have small (10mm) viewing / ventilation holes around the
sides and a latched removable lid to allow us to get them out.

The thought is that rabbits successfully defend themselves from foxes
in their burrows / warren so a synthetic one might do the same?

These three rabbits seem to be very fast, are pretty alert and have
good eyes and ears (all part of being a prey animal I guess) and we
have seen them attack each other and magpies and wouldn't want to be
on the end of that ourselves (especially when you see what they can
bite clean through).

The idea was that as long as the path between the entrance to the box
(that could have a tube added) was only navigable by the rabbits they
should be able to look after themselves?

I think rabbits can nearly turn back on themselves so that they can
turn round in their burrow? Whilst flexible I'm not sure a fox would
be quite as good and probably wouldn't want to commit to something
like that with no clear way of escape?

Cheers, T i m

On Saturday, 8 September 2018 08:43:30 UTC+1, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , T i m
writes
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Foxes are opportunists. Chances are it will look elsewhere tonight.

Don't assume they only hunt at night.

Cheapest electric fence is single strand with woven in conductors. The
horse world use tape because it is more visible.
For a lot more money, you can get electrified sheep netting.
Foxes are good jumpers: 4' or so.

I think commercial fence energisers are 6kV .

Don't know about ground wire. Most livestock have at least 3 feet on the
ground when in contact.
--
Tim Lamb

An electric fencer needs earthing to complete the circuit. It often is the steel rod that it comes with.

Jonathan

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 08:43:13 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes
Hi all,

Mums neighbour mentioned that it was quite noisy in her back garden
last night as there was a fox (or foxes) trying to get to daughters
rescue rabbits that live in Mums back garden.

The hutch / run is a commercial jobby with a large square wired in run
at the bottom and a hutch half the size of the run on the top,
accessed by a ramp on the inside.

I don't *think* a fox could get in as the wire mesh is pretty strong
and the frame and staples fairly new.

Foxes are opportunists. Chances are it will look elsewhere tonight.

Well they would be disappointed it they did anyway as they indoors.
;-)

Don't assume they only hunt at night.

Understood.

Cheapest electric fence is single strand with woven in conductors. The
horse world use tape because it is more visible.

Ah, makes sense.

For a lot more money, you can get electrified sheep netting.

Yes, I have since seen various styles and designs of such fencing with
wires threaded within. Even especially for keeping rabbits in or out.

Foxes are good jumpers: 4' or so.

And more it's been suggested.


I think commercial fence energisers are 6kV .

I saw a tester that went up to 10kV so that makes sense. A chary I saw
suggested to deter a fox it needed to be between 3 to 5 kV. (it was
lower for some animals).

Don't know about ground wire. Most livestock have at least 3 feet on the
ground when in contact.

Sure, the issue was more of 'what about concrete' that might be less
conductive than typical 'earth / soil' ground, even when 'dry'?

The energiser units seem to range from about 50 quid on eBay to
several times that for a more 'commercial' one (often with dual power
supply options). I might ring around and see if any of the Agri /
Equestrian suppliers (thanks for the tip) have a second hand one they
want to get rid of cheap? I'm about to check out the diy options. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 09:56:34 +0100, Richard
wrote:

snip

If this fox risk is now increased it may be that we have to build a
large rigid run for the lawn and could easily have a perimeter
electric wire barrier (I can 3D print all sorts of insulated standoffs
etc) that could protect down close to the ground (to defeat digging)
and further up the sides and over the top (run infill mesh could be
grounded).


https://www.electricfence-online.co....for/foxes.html


Thanks for that. It adds some specific detail to my generic thoughts.
;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 02:50:01 -0700 (PDT), Jonathan
wrote:

snip

Don't know about ground wire. Most livestock have at least 3 feet on the
ground when in contact.
--
Tim Lamb

An electric fencer needs earthing to complete the circuit. It often is the steel rod that it comes with.

And whilst that would be pretty easy on the lawn, I'm not sure a
ground rod in the soil under the concrete would provide a sufficiently
good electrical path when the concrete is very dry?

However, it looks like my though's re a combination of live wires over
an earthed mesh (the rabbit hutch / run itself) aren't unreasonable so
that should do it. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 09:25:07 +0100, "Brian Gaff"
wrote:

I'd be more worried about the foxes digging down well below the bottom of
the fences if any area of it is on soil.

Understood. See my additional thoughts for a 'rabbit bunker' for when
they are out on the lawn. ;-)

Normally electric fencing is pulsed at a very high voltage, but current
limited so it cannot do any harm.

Understood.

You often find a kind of conductive tape
stuff as well.

Apparently more used with horses where they need to see it easier.

I have had shocks off them but apart from a curse they seem
to do no harm to us.

Likewise (especially when a kid). ;-)

I guess its due to the voltage since there is no real
earth return of such.

Or current available in the high voltage supply.

The trouble with foxes are that if you remove the ones in the immediate
vicinity, there are now so many another lot move in in a few months.

That was my concern and why it might be 'about time' we provided some
sort of defence solution. I think they have been out like this (open
topped run on the lawn during the day) for a couple of years now.

One side effect of the pulsed fences can be electrical interference though,
as effectively you are putting a long aerial not a pulsed high voltage
spike, so ticking noises happen and this can cause break up of digital tv or
noise on radios nearby.

I wondered about that (and some energiser units boast a wire length of
120km!) but it looks like the voltage may ramp quickly up and down so
may help reduce the radiation of electrical noise?

Cheers, T i m

On 08/09/18 11:02, T i m wrote:
On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 09:56:34 +0100, Richard
wrote:

snip

If this fox risk is now increased it may be that we have to build a
large rigid run for the lawn and could easily have a perimeter
electric wire barrier (I can 3D print all sorts of insulated standoffs
etc) that could protect down close to the ground (to defeat digging)
and further up the sides and over the top (run infill mesh could be
grounded).


https://www.electricfence-online.co....for/foxes.html


Thanks for that. It adds some specific detail to my generic thoughts.
;-)

Cheers, T i m


YVW.
Should your need to deter other insurgents like, perhaps wolves, or
bears, rabbits etc.

https://www.gallagher.eu/en_gb/keeping-animals-out

On Saturday, 8 September 2018 13:14:08 UTC+1, Richard wrote:

YVW.
Should your need to deter other insurgents like, perhaps wolves, or
bears, rabbits etc.

https://www.gallagher.eu/en_gb/keeping-animals-out

the teddy bears can be pretty wild round here


NT

On Sat, 8 Sep 2018 13:14:06 +0100, Richard
wrote:

snip


Should your need to deter other insurgents like, perhaps wolves, or
bears, rabbits etc.

https://www.gallagher.eu/en_gb/keeping-animals-out

Thanks.

Cheers, T i m

I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).


Save a lot of time and effort, let the fox have a snack.

?You must be the only person who can aim a PIR Lamp low. Most are aimed to
light up the sky.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2018 13:51:36 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:


I might rig up a spare CCTV system round there just to see if they
come back (the neighbour also complained that mums PIR flood lamp was
going on and off (it is set very low and points away from their houses
so it was only incidental light)).


Save a lot of time and effort, let the fox have a snack.

?You must be the only person who can aim a PIR Lamp low. Most are aimed to
light up the sky.

Well, Mum has two (we only have solar PIR 'lamps' that you can just
see by), one on the front of the conservatory and that has quite a
long 'peak' and I set that to basically cutoff by the bottom of her
(not particularly long) garden and one fairly high on the garage set
nearly facing downwards over mostly her parking area (and some of next
doors).

We used to have one on the house opposite that was set nearly
horizontally! ;-(

Cheers, T i m

We used to have one on the house opposite that was set nearly
horizontally! ;-(

Cheers, T i m




A house near me had a couple of coach lamps each side of the front door -
possibly 25watts. Someone has bought the house and replaced them with god
knows what wattage flood lights. Looks horrid - dazzles people - stupid.

On Sun, 09 Sep 2018 08:38:42 GMT, DerbyBorn
wrote:



We used to have one on the house opposite that was set nearly
horizontally! ;-(

A house near me had a couple of coach lamps each side of the front door -
possibly 25watts. Someone has bought the house and replaced them with god
knows what wattage flood lights. Looks horrid - dazzles people - stupid.

I have seen similar a few times and even with lights in the gateposts
on the road where it ruins your night vision as you drive past. ;-(

Nearly as bad are people parked up on the wrong side of the road at
night with the dipped beam dipping straight into drivers eyes. ;-(

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:06:49 +0100, T i m wrote:

An electric fencer needs earthing to complete the circuit. It
often is
the steel rod that it comes with.

And whilst that would be pretty easy on the lawn, I'm not sure a
ground rod in the soil under the concrete would provide a sufficiently
good electrical path when the concrete is very dry?

The ground under the concrete won't be very dry... Or are you
thinking of foxy having all four paws on the dry concrete and nose on
the fencer wire. Noses are sensitive.

The earth return doesn't have to be very good. Even if you need 1 mA
to flow at 5 kV thats 5 mega ohms...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sat, 08 Sep 2018 10:41:54 +0100, T i m wrote:

The thought is that rabbits successfully defend themselves from foxes
in their burrows / warren so a synthetic one might do the same?

If the hutch is fox proof, a short, even straight length of something
for them to have access/egrees through would probably do the trick. A
foot length of 110mm soil pipe? Securly, very securly, attached to
the hutch with a sliding and latchable panel to shut them in at
night. Design of the latch is the hard bit if foxy has access to it.

How good the rabbits are at scarpering into their bunker might be a
problem if foxy got into the run and rabbits started panic. If they
took fright with foxy still outside the run they'f probably go
straight into it. Note the "bunker" needs to be where they normally
go to feel safe. You can't give 'em a choice.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Exactly, these people who put on these electric shows know all about this,
huge voltages, nice sparks and possibly a little burn ihere and there, but
no current.
Brian

--
----- --
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please
Note this Signature is meaningless.!
"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
idual.net...
On Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:06:49 +0100, T i m wrote:

An electric fencer needs earthing to complete the circuit. It
often is
the steel rod that it comes with.

And whilst that would be pretty easy on the lawn, I'm not sure a
ground rod in the soil under the concrete would provide a sufficiently
good electrical path when the concrete is very dry?

The ground under the concrete won't be very dry... Or are you
thinking of foxy having all four paws on the dry concrete and nose on
the fencer wire. Noses are sensitive.

The earth return doesn't have to be very good. Even if you need 1 mA
to flow at 5 kV thats 5 mega ohms...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:36:19 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2018 10:41:54 +0100, T i m wrote:

The thought is that rabbits successfully defend themselves from foxes
in their burrows / warren so a synthetic one might do the same?

If the hutch is fox proof, a short, even straight length of something
for them to have access/egrees through would probably do the trick.

Do we assume that rabbits can get through holes that foxes cant? The
problem with that is stopping them making the access holes bigger. ;-)

Because we put them inside I got a cardboard box and cut a tunnel
shaped one in one side (and put some straw in etc). The next day we
noticed they had cut a new hole in the opposite side. ;-)

A
foot length of 110mm soil pipe?

Yes, they have various lengths of plastic and fabric tubes to play in
and I think even the biggest can fit though the 110mm diameter stuff
(that's quite heavy duty).

Securly, very securly, attached to
the hutch with a sliding and latchable panel to shut them in at
night.

Ah. There are two scenarios here Dave. They have a two level 'hutch (4
x 2 x 2') over run' (4 x 4 x 2') on concrete that has a sort of
external 'patio' (also on the concrete) that they can be let out into
if the weather is a bit iffy (they can come and go in and out of that
as they please).

On the lawn they have a modular steel mesh panel pen that can be moved
about (wear leveling) that they often get put in for the day if the
weather looks bad.

Design of the latch is the hard bit if foxy has access to it.

Yes, I understand they can be quite 'cunning'. ;-)

How good the rabbits are at scarpering into their bunker might be a
problem if foxy got into the run and rabbits started panic.

Understood.

If they
took fright with foxy still outside the run they'f probably go
straight into it.

It's funny ... if my sister comes round with her whippets and they are
let into the garden they do go a bit crazy (running up into their
upstairs and thumping etc) whereas if daughters friend turned up with
his Alsatian, one of that rabbits in particular will go nose to nose
to him though the outside pen wire. ;-)

Note the "bunker" needs to be where they normally
go to feel safe. You can't give 'em a choice.

OK.

If their lawn run is up one end of the garden it can be incorporated
with a open fronted hutch (their summer house, sat on concrete slabs)
but it wouldn't offer any special protection against foxes. I was
thinking of making said lift - outable bunker in there or, making sure
the summer house itself was fixed down to the slabs securely and had a
secure but removable front on it (so we could get them out ourselves)
that could include the anti-fox access tunnels.

We picked up the electric fence stuff today and are in the process of
electrifying the ground level of the main hutch / run, mainly to deter
the fox at night and the resultant noise waking the neighbour(s?).

There is generally someone around during the day when they are in
their pen and as long as they have their 'bunker' that should be
enough. The main fear was Mr Fox coming back in the night, now he
knows there are some rabbits about.

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 18:22:21 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Sat, 08 Sep 2018 11:06:49 +0100, T i m wrote:

An electric fencer needs earthing to complete the circuit. It
often is
the steel rod that it comes with.

And whilst that would be pretty easy on the lawn, I'm not sure a
ground rod in the soil under the concrete would provide a sufficiently
good electrical path when the concrete is very dry?

The ground under the concrete won't be very dry...

Agreed, but I was wondering about the path though the ground to the
surface of the concrete?

Or are you
thinking of foxy having all four paws on the dry concrete and nose on
the fencer wire. Noses are sensitive.

That's one of the scenarios. We have looked up the wire heights for
foxes and have set them at 100, 200, 350 and 500cm from the ground.

We are hoping to link and ground all the hutch mesh (it's mounted to
the inside of the frames) so that there should be a good path between
the external wires and real ground (along with the path though the
concrete that might give Mr Fox a slightly lower power shock).

The earth return doesn't have to be very good. Even if you need 1 mA
to flow at 5 kV thats 5 mega ohms...

One of daughters friends and was good (stupid?) enough to try some
stuff out for us today.

Wit the earth rod pushed a few inches into the lawn and him standing
quite close to it in his rubber soled shoes, he could actually hold
onto the live wire (he said it was uncomfortable but bearable)

Taking of one boot and standing on the (dry) grass with one socked and
one boot made him jump (he couldn't hold onto it).

Taking the one sock off made it more noticeable still, even touching
the wire with his trousered leg made him jump (again, worse with the
bare foot leg).

With the probe poorly in the ground by the edge of the concrete and
him on the concrete, the effect was at it's weakest with him in his
boots. With daughter in a socked foot, also on the concrete and
holding one of his hands whilst he touched the live wire, they both
felt it quite well. ;-)

If he touched the earth probe with his other hand he got the full
whack and that did make made him jump! ;-)

We have yet to convince him to test it with his nose (ala Mr Fox).
weg

Cheers, T i m

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 23:05:57 +0100, T i m wrote:

Taking the one sock off made it more noticeable still, even touching
the wire with his trousered leg made him jump (again, worse with the
bare foot leg).

How many foxes have you seen wearing wellies, bare foot is closer to
what foxy will get.

Presumably the lads hands were also dry, not moist like a nose...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 22:41:06 +0100, T i m wrote:

If the hutch is fox proof, a short, even straight length of
something
for them to have access/egrees through would probably do the
trick.

Do we assume that rabbits can get through holes that foxes cant?

Foxes can't get down a rabbit dug burrow. The burrows around here are
about 4" dia, 110 mm waste water pipe might be 1/2" larger. But
burrow size will vary with rabbit size.

The problem with that is stopping them making the access holes bigger.

The rabbits rather than the foxes? Yes, rabbits do like make holes in
panels a comfortable size to get through but generally stop once that
has been achieved.

Perhaps it would be easier to construct a say 5" square internal a
bit over a foot long. Foxy might be able to get his head into that
but not his shoulders. I think a foxes set has tunnels 6 to 7" dia.
Close the entrance end with a thick bit of board with a 4" dia hole,
edge of hole aligned with internal bottom tunnel board and let the
rabbits cut it to size.

Design of the latch is the hard bit if foxy has access to it.

Yes, I understand they can be quite 'cunning'. ;-)

Not so much cunning but they'll "worry" it. Proding, pushing in every
which way taking advantage of any movement they get, eventually
they'll get it open. They'll then have a rough memory of how they did
it, so will be quicker next time...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 09:32:54 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 23:05:57 +0100, T i m wrote:

Taking the one sock off made it more noticeable still, even touching
the wire with his trousered leg made him jump (again, worse with the
bare foot leg).

How many foxes have you seen wearing wellies, bare foot is closer to
what foxy will get.

Hence my suggestion why he did that for the test. ;-)

Presumably the lads hands were also dry, not moist like a nose...

Probably.

When we got all the gear we were advised to ensure the wire was spaced
well away from anything.

When we got home we did some experiments and ran the voltage along two
parallel conductors on an insulated surface and had to get the
conductors to within just a few mm of each other before the gap was
jumped. Even laying the conductors on rainwater soaked wood didn't
allow the voltage to be discharge though the wood till the conductors
were 10mm apart.

So, in two places the wire passes though the middle of 25mm diameter
holes, drilled though the wood and we are hoping that should provide a
sufficient air gap to ensure no arcing, even when it's all wet?

I was wondering, if it did arc, if a short length of plastic tube
(silicone?) threaded over the wire and though the hole in the wood
would help, or would that make matters worse when it was wet?

Cheers, T i m

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 09:58:04 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

snip

Do we assume that rabbits can get through holes that foxes cant?

Foxes can't get down a rabbit dug burrow. The burrows around here are
about 4" dia, 110 mm waste water pipe might be 1/2" larger. But
burrow size will vary with rabbit size.

Understood. Daughter has three rabbits atm. A small albino hare
looking thing, a medium sized 'Lion Head' and a larger 'lop' with
helicopter ears (that was rescued from a breeder by the RSPCA). If the
large rabbit can get though something then the others will also.

The problem with that is stopping them making the access holes bigger.

The rabbits rather than the foxes?

Yes.

Yes, rabbits do like make holes in
panels a comfortable size to get through but generally stop once that
has been achieved.

So it seems (apart from the odd additional adjustment).

Perhaps it would be easier to construct a say 5" square internal a
bit over a foot long. Foxy might be able to get his head into that
but not his shoulders. I think a foxes set has tunnels 6 to 7" dia.

Ok.

Close the entrance end with a thick bit of board with a 4" dia hole,
edge of hole aligned with internal bottom tunnel board and let the
rabbits cut it to size.

That's a good idea. Rabbit d-i-y! ;-)

Design of the latch is the hard bit if foxy has access to it.

Yes, I understand they can be quite 'cunning'. ;-)

Not so much cunning but they'll "worry" it. Proding, pushing in every
which way taking advantage of any movement they get, eventually
they'll get it open. They'll then have a rough memory of how they did
it, so will be quicker next time...

We understand that the wooden turnbuckles are a definite no-no and the
metal ones not a lot batter (especially if they aren't tight). On the
hutch we have there are shoot bolts, none of which open easily, even
for those of us with opposing fingers. ;-)

Daughter gave all the new pine woodwork (corner pieces to carry the
electric wire insulated screw in loops plus end stops for either side
of the door (the door will have it's own sub section, joined to the
main wires by a short length of the 'lead out' cable) and battens to
hold the insulated rings on the door itself) a coat of low VOC(?)
paint (the nearest she could find to something that was recommended as
animal safe) and weather permitting the Mrs and I might put all the
parts on and wire it up tomorrow for her while she's at work.

The idea is to ensure all the mesh that lines the inside of the main
run under the hutch is earthed together and to the main ground earth
(forming a Faraday cage if you like) and so if Mr Fox tries to paw the
wires / mesh he will find a very good earth, even if it's all very
dry.

I'll try to take some pictures when it's done.

Cheers, T i m

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 00:32:41 +0100, T i m wrote:

When we got home we did some experiments and ran the voltage along two
parallel conductors on an insulated surface and had to get the
conductors to within just a few mm of each other before the gap was
jumped. Even laying the conductors on rainwater soaked wood didn't
allow the voltage to be discharge though the wood till the conductors
were 10mm apart.

At the voltages involved it'll leak long before it arcs. Arc's are a
"bad thing" not only will they reduce the "kick" they'll make the
tick tick tick RF interference much worse.

I was wondering, if it did arc, if a short length of plastic tube
(silicone?) threaded over the wire and though the hole in the wood
would help, or would that make matters worse when it was wet?

Any insulator that makes the path length longer from the wire to
ground will reduce the chances of arcing.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:48:05 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 00:32:41 +0100, T i m wrote:

When we got home we did some experiments and ran the voltage along two
parallel conductors on an insulated surface and had to get the
conductors to within just a few mm of each other before the gap was
jumped. Even laying the conductors on rainwater soaked wood didn't
allow the voltage to be discharge though the wood till the conductors
were 10mm apart.

At the voltages involved it'll leak long before it arcs.

Ok. We were measuring the voltages on a tester all the time and
couldn't really see any noticeable drop in voltage, other when it was
arcing.

Arc's are a
"bad thing" not only will they reduce the "kick" they'll make the
tick tick tick RF interference much worse.

Understood ... 'spark sending apparatus'. ;-)


I was wondering, if it did arc, if a short length of plastic tube
(silicone?) threaded over the wire and though the hole in the wood
would help, or would that make matters worse when it was wet?

Any insulator that makes the path length longer from the wire to
ground will reduce the chances of arcing.

But that's the thing, whilst it might make it longer it might make it
easier to traverse? eg, Would 10mm of (damp even) air offer more or
less resistance than the 50mm long plastic tube filling the hole that
is soaking wet with rain?

Cheers, T i m

On 12/09/2018 13:00, T i m wrote:
On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 12:48:05 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

Any insulator that makes the path length longer from the wire to
ground will reduce the chances of arcing.

But that's the thing, whilst it might make it longer it might make it
easier to traverse? eg, Would 10mm of (damp even) air offer more or
less resistance than the 50mm long plastic tube filling the hole that
is soaking wet with rain?

Hot electric fence wires usually get mounted on insulated standoff rings
if you want them to be reliable under wet and windy conditions. eg

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RING-INSU...e/172138194030


--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 00:52:29 +0100, T i m wrote:

On the hutch we have there are shoot bolts, none of which open easily,
even for those of us with opposing fingers. ;-)

Shoot bolts, that's the description I couldn't think of yesterday.
Provided they are pretty stiff they should be ok. A hasp and staple
"locked" with 1 1/2 circular turns of thick stiff wire with the gap
in the overlap less than the staple dia ought to defeat 'em.

The idea is to ensure all the mesh that lines the inside of the main
run under the hutch is earthed together and to the main ground earth
(forming a Faraday cage if you like) and so if Mr Fox tries to paw the
wires / mesh he will find a very good earth, even if it's all very
dry.

Hum, I think you're worrying to much about the earth return. Also
attaching the mesh to the energisers ground terminal is quite likely
to make the mesh "live" relative to real ground as well:


+---------- wire --------+
| |
Energiser |
| |
+---------- mesh |
| |
Resistance Leakage
to earth |
| |
+---------- earth -------+

The leakage current causes a volt drop across the resistance to earth
lifting the mesh above earth. How far the mesh is lifted depends on
the amount of leakage. Worst case is a short (arc's are effectively
shorts) to earth, which will push the mesh right up to as near as
damn it the wire voltage. The bunnies might not appreciate this if
they are running about over the mesh over the ground.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 12 Sep 2018 13:00:56 +0100, T i m wrote:

Any insulator that makes the path length longer from the wire to
ground will reduce the chances of arcing.

But that's the thing, whilst it might make it longer it might make it
easier to traverse? eg, Would 10mm of (damp even) air offer more or
less resistance than the 50mm long plastic tube filling the hole that
is soaking wet with rain?

I was thinking more of a 4 to 6" length of fairly snug insulation
around the wire rather than a something like a bit of hose pipe
filling the hole and the wire flapping about inside.

As has been pointed out the ring insulators are the thing to use.
Note how they have that "finned" bit between the ring and metal
screw. That extends the path length. Does the wire *have* to go
through these holes?

--
Cheers
Dave.