On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 15:17:28 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 14:28:28 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
That is simply down to the thermostat design - hysteresis, etc.

Or the compressor taking a while to get going? If I turn on a
resistive element, I get heat immediately. If I turn on a
compressor, a few minutes pass before cooling takes place, and
another few minutes for it to stop cooling when I turn it off. Even
if a fridge stat had a hysteresis of 0.00001C and the air inside the
fridge was blown around by a fan, so perfectly even, it would still
continue to cool after the compressor was turned off due to the
thermal capacity of the coolant in the internal pipes.

Thanks for confirming you don't know what hysteresis is.

I know exactly what it is, but the sentence above suggests we're talking
about THERMOSTAT hysteresis.

If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as many
do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the hysteresis is what
you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting. I do on a thermostat I assembled myself in kit form. But one on the front of an oven, I'd not expect the manufacturer of the cooker to be confusing the user with settings like hysteresis. They'll have determined what's best for the working of the oven and the life of the heating element.

--
I'm not as drunk as thinkle may peep.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 14:28:28 +0100, Dave Blowman (News), the notorious
troll-feeding idiot, driveled again:


compressor was turned off due to the thermal capacity of the coolant in
the internal pipes.

Thanks for confirming you don't know what hysteresis is.

Thaks for confirming that you ARE a retarded piece of troll-feeding ****,
Blowman!

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as
many do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the hysteresis
is what you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

--
*I don't know what your problem is, but I'll bet it's hard to pronounce

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 15:17:28 +0100, Dave Blowman (News), the notorious
troll-feeding idiot, driveled again:


If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as many
do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the hysteresis is what
you decide it to be.

HE decided YOU to be his troll-bait, you senile idiot!

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:03:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as
many do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the hysteresis
is what you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

Clearly the manufacturer would limit it to a sensible range, so the user couldn't set "200C +/- 1 billion".

--
How does an Italian get into an honest business?
Through the skylight.

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:18:32 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:03:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as
many do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the hysteresis
is what you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

Clearly the manufacturer would limit it to a sensible range, so the user couldn't set "200C +/- 1 billion".

Actually, shouldn't as fine a hysteresis as possible be used? Take it to the extreme and say the stat could measure 0.001C. Why not do that? What you'd end up with is the equivalent of a dimmer switch on the heating element, and once it reached temperature it would be on say a 30% duty cycle. I'm assuming an electronic stat here and not a bimetallic strip (do they still use those?) as you'd wear it out damn quick. Not that a bimetallic strip could have an adjustable hysteresis. Of course if you're driving a compressor in a fridge, you want it to stop and start less often.

--
Why do people point to their wrist when asking for the time, but don't point to their crotch when asking where the bathroom is?

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:03:54 +0100, Dave Blowman (News), the notorious
troll-feeding idiot, driveled again:


The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

YOU will always get access to his cock, Blowman! He knows, you can't resist!
BG

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Sam wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Sam wrote:
Isn't it a damn sight easier to hold a temperature 15C away from
room
temperature than 180C away?

Not when you do it with a compressor with the fridge instead of an
electrical heater with the oven.

Not quite sure why. At basics, both are simpl1y switched off when they
reach the required temperature, and on again when needed to maintain
that.

You get much finer control with the electrical heater.

That is simply down to the thermostat design - hysteresis, etc.

Down to how the heat is added or removed, actually.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 1 June 2018 11:12:37 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 31 May 2018 19:16:56 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2018 03:05:37 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 30 May 2018 19:19:11 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 30/05/2018 09:24, newshound wrote:
On 30/05/2018 08:34, Bob Minchin wrote:
Pinnerite wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Pinnerite wrote:
I am trying to find a reasonably priced single oven with a
digital
temerature readout. None of the sites I have visited boast of
one.
Anybody any useful recent experience?

Do you mean one which reads the true temperature as measured
by a
sensor,
rather than just a digital display of what it's meant to be?


Yes


I think any sensible manufacturer would not offer this as it
would
clearly show the variations in temperature as the control system
cut
in and out causing some customers to be dissatisfied and letters
of
complaint.
I can't imagine other than a very high end oven employing a 3
term
PID
controller when a gradual variation +/- a few degrees from a
simple
bang bang controller would make no discernible difference in
cooking
performance.

I've simply got a couple of "floating" thermocouples in my double
oven
wired up to a standard display. It is interesting how rapidly the
air
temperature drops when the door is opened, and how relatively
slow
it is
to recover. I regularly use an IR thermometer to check the
temperature
of the linings, and sometimes use a probe in the joint. Several
decades
ago Cannon had an oven which came with a built-in probe and
display.

Not a conventional oven, but many years ago my parents had a Sharp
microwave with a temperature probe. You could set a temperature and
a
time and it would heat to that temperature and then hold that
temperature for the set time.

SteveW

I wonder how that worked or was it a gimmick that didn't work that
well.
Small wires would vapourise in a microwave.

How do you know that small wires were involved? Could be some
non-comducting fluid device.

Well most temp sensors use metal in their construction.

Not with the electronic sensors.

What do they sense then,

Temperature, ****wit.

Which is why you couldn't just put a
LCD display in a microwave oven.

But you can put a standard thermocouple in a metal jacket in one;

but microwaves are effected by metal

Nope, they have metal bodys, stupid.

that's why you're not meant to put metal in a microwave oven.

Thats always been a myth. Plenty suggest you
put foil over the bony end of drumsticks etc so
they dont get over cooked. Works fine.

I doubt you could just place a thermomerter
in their either un less you has a suitable one,

You can anyway.

prove it,

Those Sharp temperature sensors do that.

a meriry one might explode

Nope.

as would a standard alcohol filled one.

Nope.

In such an oven you get really rapidily changing temperatures too,

Nope.

and it so much depends on what you are heating.

Nope.

I checked the o/p of my old oven years ago. What
yuo do is heat about 200ml of water for say a minute
or two then measure the temerature rise and apply
the specific heat capacity of water to work out teh
power of the oven. You can't just stick a standard
themometer in the oven.

Corse you can.


Not if you want to know the power of your oven,

Yep.

as microwave ovens are specified in watts not the deg C

Thats why you measure the temperature
of a known amount of water, ****wit.

like convetnional ovens that;s why a micriwave
has heat setting as a percentage of full power

Irrelevant to whether you can measure
the temperature if you want to.

And when roasting something like a leg of lamb
or slab of beef, what you care about is the internal
temperature of the slab or leg, not the air in the oven.

whereas gas or electric conventinal ovens have things like
temperature setting in C or F, rather than Watts for X time.

But that doesnt tell you the temperature that
matters with a leg of lamb or a slab of beef etc.

Thats why you have meat thermometers
and they work fine in a microwave too.

"Jimmy Wilkinson Knife" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:18:32 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:03:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as
many do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the hysteresis
is what you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

Clearly the manufacturer would limit it to a sensible range, so the user
couldn't set "200C +/- 1 billion".

Actually, shouldn't as fine a hysteresis as possible be used?

Not with something like a fridge or freezer where its better
to have the compressor start and stop less frequently.

Take it to the extreme and say the stat could measure 0.001C. Why not do
that? What you'd end up with is the equivalent of a dimmer switch on the
heating element, and once it reached temperature it would be on say a 30%
duty cycle. I'm assuming an electronic stat here and not a bimetallic strip
(do they still use those?) as you'd wear it out damn quick. Not that a
bimetallic strip could have an adjustable hysteresis. Of course if you're
driving a compressor in a fridge, you want it to stop and start less often.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 01:57:28 +0100, Sam wrote:



"Jimmy Wilkinson Knife" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:18:32 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:03:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as
many do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the hysteresis
is what you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

Clearly the manufacturer would limit it to a sensible range, so the user
couldn't set "200C +/- 1 billion".

Actually, shouldn't as fine a hysteresis as possible be used?

Not with something like a fridge or freezer where its better
to have the compressor start and stop less frequently.

That's exactly what I said below in the last sentence.

Take it to the extreme and say the stat could measure 0.001C. Why not do
that? What you'd end up with is the equivalent of a dimmer switch on the
heating element, and once it reached temperature it would be on say a 30%
duty cycle. I'm assuming an electronic stat here and not a bimetallic strip
(do they still use those?) as you'd wear it out damn quick. Not that a
bimetallic strip could have an adjustable hysteresis. Of course if you're
driving a compressor in a fridge, you want it to stop and start less often.

--
"Quantititty" - noun. A measurement of the diameter of a woman's breast.

On Sat, 2 Jun 2018 10:57:28 +1000, Sam, another mentally deficient,
troll-feeding, senile moron, blathered again:

FLUSH senile idiot's usual senile troll-fodder

In article ,
Sam wrote:
Of course if you're driving a compressor in a fridge, you want it to
stop and start less often.

I have a fridge here. Badged Hoover. Must be over 30 years old. So doubt
it is a problem in practice.

Nor is there any need to control temperature to within an inch of its life.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 11:13:03 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Sam wrote:
Of course if you're driving a compressor in a fridge, you want it to
stop and start less often.

I have a fridge here. Badged Hoover. Must be over 30 years old. So doubt
it is a problem in practice.

Nor is there any need to control temperature to within an inch of its life.

A ridge takes a while to drop a C or three. A cooker can heat 30C in a very short time. So it needs to be turned on and off more quickly than a compressor.

--
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - US Marines

On 02/06/2018 01:57, Sam wrote:


"Jimmy Wilkinson Knife" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:18:32 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:03:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
** Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as
many do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the
hysteresis
is what you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

Clearly the manufacturer would limit it to a sensible range, so the
user couldn't set "200C +/- 1 billion".

Actually, shouldn't as fine a hysteresis as possible be used?

Not with something like a fridge or freezer where its better
to have the compressor start and stop less frequently.

Take it to the extreme and say the stat could measure 0.001C.* Why not
do that?* What you'd end up with is the equivalent of a dimmer switch on
the heating element, and once it reached temperature it would be on say
a 30% duty cycle.* I'm assuming an electronic stat here and not a
bimetallic strip (do they still use those?) as you'd wear it out damn
quick.* Not that a bimetallic strip could have an adjustable
hysteresis.

My marine fish-tank used to have the heaters driven by a pulse-width
modulated supply - total overkill for simple heating of a large thermal
mass by pretty low powered heaters, but I had a spare industrial PID
controller and it gave me an integrated temperature display for free.

SteveW

On Sat, 02 Jun 2018 22:55:35 +0100, Steve Walker wrote:

On 02/06/2018 01:57, Sam wrote:


"Jimmy Wilkinson Knife" wrote in message
news
On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:18:32 +0100, Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
wrote:

On Fri, 01 Jun 2018 17:03:54 +0100, Dave Plowman (News)
wrote:

In article ,
Jimmy Wilkinson Knife wrote:
If you're using a sensor with electronics to set the temperature as
many do rather than a mechanical thermostat these day, the
hysteresis
is what you decide it to be.

The user doesn't always get access to that setting.

Just as well with the likes of you.

Clearly the manufacturer would limit it to a sensible range, so the
user couldn't set "200C +/- 1 billion".

Actually, shouldn't as fine a hysteresis as possible be used?

Not with something like a fridge or freezer where its better
to have the compressor start and stop less frequently.

Take it to the extreme and say the stat could measure 0.001C. Why not
do that? What you'd end up with is the equivalent of a dimmer switch on
the heating element, and once it reached temperature it would be on say
a 30% duty cycle. I'm assuming an electronic stat here and not a
bimetallic strip (do they still use those?) as you'd wear it out damn
quick. Not that a bimetallic strip could have an adjustable
hysteresis.

My marine fish-tank used to have the heaters driven by a pulse-width
modulated supply - total overkill for simple heating of a large thermal
mass by pretty low powered heaters, but I had a spare industrial PID
controller and it gave me an integrated temperature display for free.

Fish are pretty fussy, they probably liked it.

--
The skeleton found in the car park has been confirmed to be that of Richard III, but one question remains unanswered:
Who did I pay £20,000 on Ebay for?

On Saturday, 2 June 2018 01:21:15 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Friday, 1 June 2018 11:12:37 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 31 May 2018 19:16:56 UTC+1, Dave W wrote:
On Thu, 31 May 2018 03:05:37 -0700 (PDT), whisky-dave
wrote:

On Wednesday, 30 May 2018 19:19:11 UTC+1, Steve Walker wrote:
On 30/05/2018 09:24, newshound wrote:
On 30/05/2018 08:34, Bob Minchin wrote:
Pinnerite wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Pinnerite wrote:
I am trying to find a reasonably priced single oven with a
digital
temerature readout. None of the sites I have visited boast of
one.
Anybody any useful recent experience?

Do you mean one which reads the true temperature as measured
by a
sensor,
rather than just a digital display of what it's meant to be?


Yes


I think any sensible manufacturer would not offer this as it
would
clearly show the variations in temperature as the control system
cut
in and out causing some customers to be dissatisfied and letters
of
complaint.
I can't imagine other than a very high end oven employing a 3
term
PID
controller when a gradual variation +/- a few degrees from a
simple
bang bang controller would make no discernible difference in
cooking
performance.

I've simply got a couple of "floating" thermocouples in my double
oven
wired up to a standard display. It is interesting how rapidly the
air
temperature drops when the door is opened, and how relatively
slow
it is
to recover. I regularly use an IR thermometer to check the
temperature
of the linings, and sometimes use a probe in the joint. Several
decades
ago Cannon had an oven which came with a built-in probe and
display.

Not a conventional oven, but many years ago my parents had a Sharp
microwave with a temperature probe. You could set a temperature and
a
time and it would heat to that temperature and then hold that
temperature for the set time.

SteveW

I wonder how that worked or was it a gimmick that didn't work that
well.
Small wires would vapourise in a microwave.

How do you know that small wires were involved? Could be some
non-comducting fluid device.

Well most temp sensors use metal in their construction.

Not with the electronic sensors.

What do they sense then,

Temperature, ****wit.

This proves you know nothing.



Which is why you couldn't just put a
LCD display in a microwave oven.

But you can put a standard thermocouple in a metal jacket in one;

but microwaves are effected by metal

Nope, they have metal bodys, stupid.

You shouldn't you put metal unless the manufacturer says you can and any terms and conditions that need adhereing to.

As a demo we're put small neon bulbs in a microwave and they light up, the neons burn out too and it doesn't do the oven much good either.



that's why you're not meant to put metal in a microwave oven.

Thats always been a myth. Plenty suggest you
put foil over the bony end of drumsticks etc so
they dont get over cooked. Works fine.

Plenty don't.

https://gizmodo.com/what-actually-ha...ave-1569906393

Just like any appliance yuo reealy need to understand it and it helps if you read the instructions.


I doubt you could just place a thermomerter
in their either un less you has a suitable one,

You can anyway.

prove it,

Those Sharp temperature sensors do that.

you mean the £110 ones sure that;s mote than a paid for my oven.
Why do you think they need to charge such an amount when I can buy a complete DMM which can measure temeprrature for a 1/10th of the cost ?




as microwave ovens are specified in watts not the deg C

Thats why you measure the temperature
of a known amount of water, ****wit.

like convetnional ovens that;s why a micriwave
has heat setting as a percentage of full power

Irrelevant to whether you can measure
the temperature if you want to.

but yuo need to think about it a bit more ****wit.
Something which you;re incapable of doing.
That;s why they give time and power rating on microwave ovens
whwre as conventalal ovens give time and temperature.


And when roasting something like a leg of lamb
or slab of beef, what you care about is the internal
temperature of the slab or leg, not the air in the oven.

Exactly, so why don't they have temerature setting on microwave ovens. Why bother with a 800W setting why not have a 180C settign like on conventional ovens ?

Are you to thick to work it out ?

Some gutless ****wit drunk desperately cowering behind
whisky-dave wrote just the
**** that always pours from the back of that desperately
cowering ****wit drunk, as always.

On Tue, 5 Jun 2018 05:34:31 +1000, cantankerous geezer Rot Speed produced
yet more rot:

Some gutless ****wit drunk desperately cowering behind
whisky-dave wrote just the
**** that always pours from the back of that desperately
cowering ****wit drunk, as always.

Here's for you, you filthy pesky geezer:

https://thetravellingtiles.files.wor...b6f9820001.jpg
Thorazine