On Tue, 01 May 2018 00:35:31 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Bill wrote:
What I wish I could find again was the online lecture by some American
who had delved into his Jeep's ECU and demonstrated that, for example,
the rev counter was not driven directly from sensors, but via lookup
tables whose inputs combined info from more than one source. If I
remember correctly, he deduced that the rev counter was more of a driver
comfort display rather than direct reality. So you can't trust any of
this stuff.

Can't think of a reason for the rev counter not to be in effect directly
driven.

Directly triggered rev counters from an ignition coil are a remnant of the
1960's and 70's with either a contact breaker or a contactless system but still
using a distributor. Last car produced with contact breaker? 30 years ago?
Last car with a distributor 20 years ago?

The commonly used means of acquiring an engine revs signal requires signal
processing for measuring the passage of the toothed wheel and the position of
the missing tooth on the crank or cam. It then uses this to synchronise the
spark and fuel injection elsewhere in the ECU.

By the mid to late 1980's the crank pulse detector fed the ECU, that then
triggered an (often external) external ignition coil pack and that unit often
fed the moving coil revcounter with a suitable loop current or a PWM signal.

But when everything is in the digital domain it's often easier, cheaper and more
reliable to send everything to the dash over a thin twisted pair to operate a
dozen warning lamps and half a dozen gauges than use a huge bunch of discrete
wires.

Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos nowadays are either
driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget on an LCD display.

--

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bill wrote:
What I wish I could find again was the online lecture by some American
who had delved into his Jeep's ECU and demonstrated that, for example,
the rev counter was not driven directly from sensors, but via lookup
tables whose inputs combined info from more than one source. If I
remember correctly, he deduced that the rev counter was more of a driver
comfort display rather than direct reality. So you can't trust any of
this stuff.

Can't think of a reason for the rev counter not to be in effect directly
driven.
Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos nowadays are
either
driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget on an LCD display.

Quite possibly. But, irrespective of how the signal reaches the dashboard
and how it moves the needles on the gauges, I'd still expect the feed for
the gauge to be from a crankshaft rotation sensor that is also used for
determining timing of fuel injection and (for petrol) spark. Likewise I'd
expect the speedo to be driven from a wheel-rotation or final-drive-rotation
sensor. I suppose you could drive the speeo from a GPS receiver and give a
true reading, but you'd still need the wheel rotation as a fall-back in case
of loss of GPS.

Doing it any other way seems unnecessarily complicated.

In article ,
The Other Mike wrote:
Can't think of a reason for the rev counter not to be in effect directly
driven.

Directly triggered rev counters from an ignition coil are a remnant of
the 1960's and 70's with either a contact breaker or a contactless
system but still using a distributor. Last car produced with contact
breaker? 30 years ago? Last car with a distributor 20 years ago?

Of course. What I meant is I can't see any reason to 'frig' its reading,
unlike with other gauges, as I explained.

--
*You're never too old to learn something stupid.
Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
NY wrote:
"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bill wrote:
What I wish I could find again was the online lecture by some
American who had delved into his Jeep's ECU and demonstrated that,
for example, the rev counter was not driven directly from sensors,
but via lookup tables whose inputs combined info from more than one
source. If I remember correctly, he deduced that the rev counter was
more of a driver comfort display rather than direct reality. So you
can't trust any of this stuff.

Can't think of a reason for the rev counter not to be in effect
directly driven.
Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos nowadays
are either driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget on an LCD
display.

Quite possibly. But, irrespective of how the signal reaches the
dashboard and how it moves the needles on the gauges, I'd still expect
the feed for the gauge to be from a crankshaft rotation sensor that is
also used for determining timing of fuel injection and (for petrol)
spark. Likewise I'd expect the speedo to be driven from a
wheel-rotation or final-drive-rotation sensor. I suppose you could
drive the speeo from a GPS receiver and give a true reading, but you'd
still need the wheel rotation as a fall-back in case of loss of GPS.

Doing it any other way seems unnecessarily complicated.

Point I was making was that I can't see any reason why you'd want a tach
to read anything other than true engine RPM. No point in fitting one
unless it's reasonably accurate. After all a rev counter is of zero use to
many drivers. For those who can make use of it, needs to be reasonably
accurate.

--
*It's o.k. to laugh during sexŒ.Œ.just don't point!

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 04/05/18 09:56, NY wrote:
"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Â* Bill wrote:
What I wish I could find again was the online lecture by some American
who had delved into his Jeep's ECU and demonstrated that, for example,
the rev counter was not driven directly from sensors, but via lookup
tables whose inputs combined info from more than one source. If I
remember correctly, he deduced that the rev counter was more of a
driver
comfort display rather than direct reality. So you can't trust any of
this stuff.

Can't think of a reason for the rev counter not to be in effect directly
driven.
Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos nowadays
are either
driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget on an LCD display.

No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Quite possibly. But, irrespective of how the signal reaches the
dashboard and how it moves the needles on the gauges, I'd still expect
the feed for the gauge to be from a crankshaft rotation sensor that is
also used for determining timing of fuel injection and (for petrol)
spark. Likewise I'd expect the speedo to be driven from a wheel-rotation
or final-drive-rotation sensor. I suppose you could drive the speeo from
a GPS receiver and give a true reading, but you'd still need the wheel
rotation as a fall-back in case of loss of GPS.

Doing it any other way seems unnecessarily complicated.


--
Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend.

"Saki"

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos
nowadays are either driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget
on an LCD display.

No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Mine (7 years old) certainly is a stepper-motor, the speedo and rev
needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp check sequence when
turning the ignition on.

Huge wrote:

And some modern cars don't have any physical dials at all.

Of course, mine has the option to display a reasonably large digital
speedo on the dash, which I tend to find easiest to read, especially
since '30' does get a figure on the analogue dial.

Since someone has mentioned 'fudging' e.g. the rpm dial, I feel the
digital speedo must do quite a lot of smoothing, as it never 'flickers'
between a number and +/- 1mph

On 04/05/18 11:19, Huge wrote:
On 2018-05-04, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos
nowadays are either driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget
on an LCD display.

No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Add another topic to the oh-so-long list of those that Turnip either knows
nohing about or generalises from his limited and elderly experience.

Oh dear. So why do you not actually cite every model of car that uses
mechanical speedos, electronic analog and electronic stepper?

Mine (7 years old) certainly is a stepper-motor, the speedo and rev
needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp check sequence when
turning the ignition on.

And some modern cars don't have any physical dials at all.


I know that. I am not concerned with e.g. LCD panels - just the
prevalence of stepper versus analogue meters


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On 04/05/18 11:25, Andy Burns wrote:
Huge wrote:

And some modern cars don't have any physical dials at all.

Of course, mine has the option to display a reasonably large digital
speedo on the dash, which I tend to find easiest to read, especially
since '30' does get a figure on the analogue dial.

Since someone has mentioned 'fudging' e.g. the rpm dial, I feel the
digital speedo must do quite a lot of smoothing, as it never 'flickers'
between a number and +/- 1mph

just add a bit of hysteresis

So to get to 30mph uyou have to do 30.5mph, but to get down to 29mph you
have to do 29.5....


--
Theres a mighty big difference between good, sound reasons and reasons
that sound good.

Burton Hillis (William Vaughn, American columnist)

Tim Streater wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the speedo and rev needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp
check sequence when turning the ignition on.

When looking for a new car 18 months ago, I rejected one model
precisely because it does that.

What's wrong with it? can be turned off by OBD-II

Huge wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

especially since '30' does get a figure on the analogue dial.

(I assume there's a "not" missing there?)

There was

We prefer the digital speedo on my wife's car, also, but you can't have
both a digital speedo and a clock, which annoys us.

check if it has a 'driving school' mode buried in the menus, that allows
me to display a 3rd speedo on the radio display, but I prefer the
station information.

My car has analogue and
digital clock and speedo both. But no oil pressure or temperature dial
(or dipstick. Grrrrr.)

I get a temperature dial, which I don't think is a stepper (nor is the
fuel gauge) digital dipstick here too, and I presume a red icon buried
somewhere on the dash.

On Fri, 04 May 2018 10:59:28 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos nowadays
are either driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget on an LCD
display.

No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Mine (7 years old) certainly is a stepper-motor, the speedo and rev
needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp check sequence when
turning the ignition on.

And mine is a visual widget on an LCD screen.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
Huge wrote:
No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Add another topic to the oh-so-long list of those that Turnip either knows
nohing about or generalises from his limited and elderly experience.

Not so sure. A stepper motor - unless extremely sophisticated - would be
seen to 'step' Like chronometric types. Neither speedos or rev counters on
cars are generally very accurate, so well within the capabilities of a
conventional meter. It would also be trivial to make those sweep up to
maximum at switch on as a self check if needed.

Not saying some ain't stepper motors - or look like one - which would also
be easy to frig.

--
*The average person falls asleep in seven minutes *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.

--
*Microsoft broke Volkswagen's record: They only made 21.4 million bugs.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
Mine (7 years old) certainly is a stepper-motor, the speedo and rev
needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp check sequence when
turning the ignition on.

And mine is a visual widget on an LCD screen.

Mine has both an analogue speedo and a digital display. And a clock
display at all times. Or rather two, as there is a second one on the ICE
display.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
Mine (7 years old) certainly is a stepper-motor, the speedo and rev
needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp check sequence when
turning the ignition on.

And mine is a visual widget on an LCD screen.

Mine has both an analogue speedo and a digital display. And a clock
display at all times. Or rather two, as there is a second one on the ICE
display.

I prefer analogue gauges for speedo and rev counter. I drove a car with a
large speedo display on top of the dashboard roughly centrally (left to
right). It was very distracting whenever the digits changed. Analogue
needles (physical or on a LCD) are less obtrusive.

Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Andy Burns
wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the speedo and rev needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp
check sequence when turning the ignition on.

When looking for a new car 18 months ago, I rejected one model
precisely because it does that.

What's wrong with it? can be turned off by OBD-II

Because it's ****in' irritating and smacks of oh look what we can do
aren't we clever.

But its harmless.

But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Now there I agree with you. Touch screens for basic heat & ventilation
controls are a truly terrible and dangerous idea.

Hopefully theyll be banned when people come to realise that theyre more
dangerous than mobile phones.

Tim


--
Please don't feed the trolls

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. Thats the level of
stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 04/05/18 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. Thats the level of
stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Well yes and no. Having climate control means you dont need to adjust it
- it's just OK as is.

Tim



--
Renewable energy: Expensive solutions that don't work to a problem that
doesn't exist instituted by self legalising protection rackets that
don't protect, masquerading as public servants who don't serve the public.

On 04/05/18 18:15, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. That?s the level of
stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Well yes and no. Having climate control means you dont need to adjust it
- it's just OK as is.

Then you've never really lived in the real world.

Does your climate control know when your feet are cold from having
got them wet? Does your climate control know when you're tiring
on a long journey and want a bit of fresh air in your
face?


yes it does.
you just kock it up degree or down a degree,

Obviously you have never driven a luxury car


Try engaging your brain before replying.

Tim



--
"The great thing about Glasgow is that if there's a nuclear attack it'll
look exactly the same afterwards."

Billy Connolly

The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. That?s the level of
stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Well yes and no. Having climate control means you dont need to adjust it
- it's just OK as is.

Then you've never really lived in the real world.

Does your climate control know when your feet are cold from having
got them wet? Does your climate control know when you're tiring
on a long journey and want a bit of fresh air in your
face?

Try engaging your brain before replying.

Tim
--

On 04/05/2018 11:14, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Andy Burns
wrote:

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

The Other Mike wrote:

Rev counters and indeed most dash gauges including speedos
nowadays are either driven by stepper motor or are a visual widget
on an LCD display.

No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Mine (7 years old) certainly is a stepper-motor, the speedo and rev
needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp check sequence when
turning the ignition on.

When looking for a new car 18 months ago, I rejected one model
precisely because it does that.



You do understand that it is just establishing its start position..
it drives the stepper for long enough to hit the end stop and then backs
off by the number of steps to get to the start point.
Lots of stuff does the same, for example the moving vents on air
conditioners.

On 04/05/2018 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:
No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Add another topic to the oh-so-long list of those that Turnip either knows
nohing about or generalises from his limited and elderly experience.

Not so sure. A stepper motor - unless extremely sophisticated - would be
seen to 'step' Like chronometric types. Neither speedos or rev counters on
cars are generally very accurate, so well within the capabilities of a
conventional meter. It would also be trivial to make those sweep up to
maximum at switch on as a self check if needed.

Not saying some ain't stepper motors - or look like one - which would also
be easy to frig.


The problem with analogue meters is that they cost more.
They cost more because they need to be made robust and damped so they
don't bounce about when the car does.

The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 18:15, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. That?s the level of
stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Well yes and no. Having climate control means you dont need to adjust it
- it's just OK as is.

Then you've never really lived in the real world.

Does your climate control know when your feet are cold from having
got them wet? Does your climate control know when you're tiring
on a long journey and want a bit of fresh air in your
face?


yes it does.
you just kock it up degree or down a degree,

Obviously you have never driven a luxury car

My previous reply stands.

Try engaging your brain before replying.

Tim


--

On Fri, 04 May 2018 19:27:52 +0100, Tim+ wrote:

The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 18:15, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls
were on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating
on the road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze
*off* the road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it?
Apart from to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate
control. Toggling a display to the required temperature is best.
Which is probably why I've only seen slide controls on older basic
heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face?
Would you want to go through touch screen options for those. That?s
the level of stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Well yes and no. Having climate control means you dont need to adjust
it - it's just OK as is.

Then you've never really lived in the real world.

Does your climate control know when your feet are cold from having
got them wet? Does your climate control know when you're tiring on a
long journey and want a bit of fresh air in your face?


yes it does.
you just kock it up degree or down a degree,

Obviously you have never driven a luxury car

My previous reply stands.

Try engaging your brain before replying.

Yes, he's talking crap again. My car has touch screen, but also real
buttons for the most common things. And voice control for quite a lot.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart
from to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate
control. Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which
is probably why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. That‘s the level
of stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

No. But sliders aren't ideal either. Discrete buttons are better.

--
*Growing old is inevitable, growing up is optional *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:
On 04/05/2018 13:57, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:
No, They are normally analogue millammeters.
Driven by the cars computer systems.

Add another topic to the oh-so-long list of those that Turnip either
knows nohing about or generalises from his limited and elderly
experience.

Not so sure. A stepper motor - unless extremely sophisticated - would
be seen to 'step' Like chronometric types. Neither speedos or rev
counters on cars are generally very accurate, so well within the
capabilities of a conventional meter. It would also be trivial to make
those sweep up to maximum at switch on as a self check if needed.

Not saying some ain't stepper motors - or look like one - which would
also be easy to frig.


The problem with analogue meters is that they cost more. They cost more
because they need to be made robust and damped so they don't bounce
about when the car does.

I really don't believe you could make a hi-res stepper motor for less than
a moving coil meter.

--
*WHY ARE HEMORRHOIDS CALLED "HEMORRHOIDS" INSTEAD OF "ASTEROIDS"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Andy Burns
wrote:

Tim Streater wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

the speedo and rev needles do a precise 'sweep' as part of the lamp
check sequence when turning the ignition on.

When looking for a new car 18 months ago, I rejected one model
precisely because it does that.

What's wrong with it? can be turned off by OBD-II

Because it's ****in' irritating and smacks of oh look what we can do
aren't we clever.

But it‘s harmless.

But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Now there I agree with you. Touch screens for basic heat & ventilation
controls are a truly terrible and dangerous idea.

A number of years ago, the BBC built Monitoring & Information Centre which
was all computer controlled - including the "open front door" instruction.
If the computer was displaying a lengthy incoming message the operator
couldn't open the door to people outside (probably standing in the rain).
By the time I saw the place an "open door" button had been added to the
desk



Hopefully they‘ll be banned when people come to realise that they‘re more
dangerous than mobile phones.

Tim


--
Pl

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

On 05/05/18 09:40, charles wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:

A number of years ago, the BBC built Monitoring & Information Centre which
was all computer controlled - including the "open front door" instruction.
If the computer was displaying a lengthy incoming message the operator
couldn't open the door to people outside (probably standing in the rain).
By the time I saw the place an "open door" button had been added to the
desk



Hopefully they€˜ll be banned when people come to realise that they€˜re more
dangerous than mobile phones.

Touch screens are cheaper than mechanical buttons and take up less panel
space.

Why they are being used on top end cars is a mystery. I can understand
on a POS Ford Ka or Toyota Yaris (possibly the worst small car I have
ever driven)

I have also discovered that if your hands are stripped of oils and water
(bleached in fact) they simply do not work.


Leastways my smartphone one don't



--
€œProgress is precisely that which rules and regulations did not foresee,€�

€“ Ludwig von Mises

Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 04 May 2018 19:27:52 +0100, Tim+ wrote:

The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 18:15, Tim+ wrote:
The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 04/05/18 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls
were on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating
on the road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze
*off* the road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it?
Apart from to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate
control. Toggling a display to the required temperature is best.
Which is probably why I've only seen slide controls on older basic
heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face?
Would you want to go through touch screen options for those. That?s
the level of stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Well yes and no. Having climate control means you dont need to adjust
it - it's just OK as is.

Then you've never really lived in the real world.

Does your climate control know when your feet are cold from having
got them wet? Does your climate control know when you're tiring on a
long journey and want a bit of fresh air in your face?


yes it does.
you just kock it up degree or down a degree,

Obviously you have never driven a luxury car

My previous reply stands.

Try engaging your brain before replying.

Yes, he's talking crap again.

Well of course. I think its because he actually has no idea how to
redirect flow manually. Make it warmer, make it colder and defrost is
probably the limit of his abilities.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart
from to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate
control. Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which
is probably why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. That‘s the level
of stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

No. But sliders aren't ideal either. Discrete buttons are better.


Hmm, sliders are pretty intuitive though and dont need concentration to
move in the way that hitting a small button does.

Now Ill not deny full climate control is a wonderful thing but some
manufacturers seem to have let school leavers with a love of €œgee-whizzery€�
design their controls to the detriment of driving safety.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 05/05/2018 00:12, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


I really don't believe you could make a hi-res stepper motor for less than
a moving coil meter.


Well you can buy the bigger (more expensive ones) for less than 50p in
twos and threes.

The sort used in cars must be 10p or less.

All they are are a couple of coils and a magnet, no expensive precision
springs or bearings and no expensive calibration processes or damping
needed.

In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
No. But sliders aren't ideal either. Discrete buttons are better.


Hmm, sliders are pretty intuitive though and don‘t need concentration to
move in the way that hitting a small button does.

My old Rover has slide controls. One for temperature, one for distribution
and a knob you turn for fan speed. State of the art in its day, likely.

But all my more recent cars have had climate control. An on/off button
each for direction. Two or a toggle for temperature and fan speed - if you
wish to override the auto settings.

Now I‘ll not deny full climate control is a wonderful thing but some
manufacturers seem to have let school leavers with a love of
”gee-whizzery• design their controls to the detriment of driving safety.

A touch screen would likely come in to that since there is no button to
feel, so you have to look. Not much of a fan of those.

--
*I did a theatrical performance about puns. It was a play on words.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
I might have guessed this ******** came from Our Dave. I don't want to
set a "required temperature", since I don't know what the required
temperature is. I want to set things to what is comfortable.

You must have fun and games in your house. You'll be the type constantly
fiddling with the thermostat.

--
*Husbands should come with instructions

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it?

That’s not correct. What you want varys with what you are
wearing and there is no way that even the best climate
control system can work that out even if it used a camera.

Apart from to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

No reason why the best climate control system couldn’t
do that bit automatically.

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate
control. Toggling a display to the required temperature is best.

I prefer a mechanical switch I can set without
looking at it while watching where I am going.

Which is probably why I've only seen
slide controls on older basic heaters.

Mine is a very basic heater which has a 5 position switch
for the fan speed and another rotary control for the
temperature which includes both heating and cooling.

Main thing it doesn’t do is ignore the switch setting
until the engine is warm enough to be able to produce
useful heat when starting in cold weather. You have to
watch the dash light to see when the engine is warm
enough so you don’t get cold air initially.

I'd prefer a much more sophisticated system which
allowed me to tell it which situation I am in clothes
wise and say whether it’s a garage sale run with me
jumping in and out of the car all the time in frigid
weather when it would be nice to be blasted with
hot air between garage sales etc unless the distance
of time is on the high side in which case it should
back off auto. And allow for the fact that in milder
weather that still needs some heating, allows for
me being warmer because I am moving around
quite a bit rather than just sitting in the car for
hours on a long trip etc.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 04/05/18 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart
from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate
control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is
probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. Thats the level
of
stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Well yes and no. Having climate control means you dont need to adjust it -
it's just OK as is.

Thats bull**** when you wear very different clothes
because of what you need when out of the car.

On 04/05/2018 17:40, Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart from
to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate control.
Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which is probably
why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. Thats the level of
stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

Tim

Yup. My car needs me to access a menu, scroll down to the setting, click
it, scroll back to the top and click again just to turn the air-con on
or off. My previous car had a dedicated button for that.

SteveW

"Tim+" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
Tim+ wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
But it wasn't just that. It was also that all the heater controls were
on the touch display. So you're driving along concentrating on the
road, and can't adjust the heating without taking your gaze *off* the
road.

Time was was cars had sliders etc for climate control. One could
operate all those without looking at them.

If it is a decent climate control system, no need to adjust it? Apart
from to say defrost on first start on a cold day?

And sliders ain't the best way to set the temperature on climate
control. Toggling a display to the required temperature is best. Which
is probably why I've only seen slide controls on older basic heaters.


How about if you feet are cold or you want cold air to your face? Would
you want to go through touch screen options for those. That€˜s the level
of stupidity that some manufacturers have achieved.

No. But sliders aren't ideal either. Discrete buttons are better.

Hmm, sliders are pretty intuitive though

But do need a visual check to see where its now set
to unless you are doing a 'bit warmer' or 'it cooler'

and dont need concentration to move in
the way that hitting a small button does.

Thats fine by feel, first button, second one etc.

Now Ill not deny full climate control is a wonderful thing but some
manufacturers seem to have let school leavers with a love of €œgee-
whizzery€� design their controls to the detriment of driving safety.

Sure, but they presumably want you to set it when not driving.