On 04/05/18 10:05, Graeme wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

One fuse each for ignition controlled 'accessories' and always live ones.
With provision for two spare fuses in the unit. Take one of those spares
and push it between the two fuses - it fitted nicely - and on comes the
ignition, with no key. Push or pull the starter switch or relay and the
engine starts and you're off. ;-)

I didn't know that!Â* Will try :-)

In the meantime, back to square one.Â* Yesterday, I removed the battery
and trickle charged overnight.Â* Put it in the car this morning, and
tried an ammeter and a bulb between the battery terminal and earth
strap.Â* Nothing.Â* Tried again with door open (and therefore courtesy
light) and the ammeter twitched just enough to show current flowing.
Shut the door again, and no twitching, so it isn't the courtesy light
switches, or, presumably, anything else causing a short.Â* Tried the same
test using a small 12v bulb, as mentioned by Harry.Â* With the door open,
the test bulb lit, but not with the door closed, proving (?) that, with
the ignition off and nothing else on, no current is flowing.

The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge.Â* New battery time :-(
Yup.

Twas on a cold winters day that my car simply wouldnt start. It had been
totally fine for three years since I biught it.


I installed a new battery, and it has been fine ever since

Sometimes batteries go suddenly and with absolutely no warning whatsoever.

--
I would rather have questions that cannot be answered...
....than to have answers that cannot be questioned

Richard Feynman

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

Sometimes batteries go suddenly and with absolutely no warning whatsoever.

Yup :-( I think the final test will be to remove the battery from the
car after a run, then leave it for at least 24 hours, refit and try.
--
Graeme

On Friday, 4 May 2018 10:05:12 UTC+1, Graeme wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

One fuse each for ignition controlled 'accessories' and always live ones.
With provision for two spare fuses in the unit. Take one of those spares
and push it between the two fuses - it fitted nicely - and on comes the
ignition, with no key. Push or pull the starter switch or relay and the
engine starts and you're off. ;-)

I didn't know that! Will try :-)

In the meantime, back to square one. Yesterday, I removed the battery
and trickle charged overnight. Put it in the car this morning, and
tried an ammeter and a bulb between the battery terminal and earth
strap. Nothing. Tried again with door open (and therefore courtesy
light) and the ammeter twitched just enough to show current flowing.
Shut the door again, and no twitching, so it isn't the courtesy light
switches, or, presumably, anything else causing a short. Tried the same
test using a small 12v bulb, as mentioned by Harry. With the door open,
the test bulb lit, but not with the door closed, proving (?) that, with
the ignition off and nothing else on, no current is flowing.

The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating at the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with distilled water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various cautions apply.

Did that long ago & the battery lasted years.


NT

In message ,
writes
On Friday, 4 May 2018 10:05:12 UTC+1, Graeme wrote:

The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating
at the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with
distilled water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various
cautions apply.

That all sounds a little scary! Straying into chain saw and angle
grinder territory :-)

Meanwhile, been for a good run (25 miles), and now disconnected the
earth lead. Will leave for minimum 24 hours, then try starting, and if
battery not up to the job, I'll know for sure.
--
Graeme

On 04/05/18 14:04, Graeme wrote:
In message ,
writes
On Friday, 4 May 2018 10:05:12 UTC+1, GraemeÂ* wrote:

The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge.Â* New battery time :-(

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating
at the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with
distilled water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so
various cautions apply.

That all sounds a little scary!Â* Straying into chain saw and angle
grinder territory :-)

Meanwhile, been for a good run (25 miles), and now disconnected the
earth lead.Â* Will leave for minimum 24 hours, then try starting, and if
battery not up to the job, I'll know for sure.

IIRC batteries can develop plate -to - plate 'whiskers' which short it
internally

Apocryphal tales of banging mega amps through to get rid of em.

BUt frankly a battery is not that expensive and for daily motoring why
take the risk?

Get a new one


--
"Anyone who believes that the laws of physics are mere social
conventions is invited to try transgressing those conventions from the
windows of my apartment. (I live on the twenty-first floor.) "

Alan Sokal

In article ,
Graeme wrote:
The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

I've got a very posh ACT battery tester. It gives you an instant readout
of the battery's actual capacity in amp.hr. Left over from when I was
working. I'd expect any decent battery place to have similar.

Basically, if that capacity is something like 20% (or more) less than the
figure on the case, it's scrap.

--
*Failure is not an option. It's bundled with your software.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
news
On 04/05/18 10:05, Graeme wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

One fuse each for ignition controlled 'accessories' and always live
ones.
With provision for two spare fuses in the unit. Take one of those spares
and push it between the two fuses - it fitted nicely - and on comes the
ignition, with no key. Push or pull the starter switch or relay and the
engine starts and you're off. ;-)

I didn't know that! Will try :-)

In the meantime, back to square one. Yesterday, I removed the battery
and trickle charged overnight. Put it in the car this morning, and tried
an ammeter and a bulb between the battery terminal and earth strap.
Nothing. Tried again with door open (and therefore courtesy light) and
the ammeter twitched just enough to show current flowing. Shut the door
again, and no twitching, so it isn't the courtesy light switches, or,
presumably, anything else causing a short. Tried the same test using a
small 12v bulb, as mentioned by Harry. With the door open, the test bulb
lit, but not with the door closed, proving (?) that, with the ignition
off and nothing else on, no current is flowing.

The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(
Yup.

Twas on a cold winters day that my car simply wouldnt start. It had been
totally fine for three years since I biught it.


I installed a new battery, and it has been fine ever since

Sometimes batteries go suddenly and with absolutely no warning whatsoever.

And with 3 now, mine one of them, mates' for the other two, even a jumper
start wont work.

On Friday, 4 May 2018 14:25:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

I've got a very posh ACT battery tester. It gives you an instant readout
of the battery's actual capacity in amp.hr. Left over from when I was
working. I'd expect any decent battery place to have similar.

Basically, if that capacity is something like 20% (or more) less than the
figure on the case, it's scrap.

I hear figures like that often. I've run car batteries to way lower than that before they became problematic. I doubt the last one had 10% of its capacity left before it began to struggle.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
On Friday, 4 May 2018 14:25:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

I've got a very posh ACT battery tester. It gives you an instant
readout of the battery's actual capacity in amp.hr. Left over from
when I was working. I'd expect any decent battery place to have
similar.

Basically, if that capacity is something like 20% (or more) less than
the figure on the case, it's scrap.

I hear figures like that often. I've run car batteries to way lower than
that before they became problematic. I doubt the last one had 10% of its
capacity left before it began to struggle.

It does depend on the type of failure. I've had some which were OK one
day, and dead the next. And how much 'reserve' the battery has which is
going to depend on the individual make.

But this tester does show if your battery is good too. Plenty fit a new
battery when the fault is elsewhere.

So like all test gear you do nee to know how to interpret the results.

FWIW, I've yet to find any lead acid which is vastly down on capacity but
can still deliver its original peak current for starting a car on a cold
day. That's not to say such a battery might not have some other uses.

--
*It's a thankless job, but I've got a lot of Karma to burn off

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating at
the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with distilled
water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various cautions apply.

Did that long ago & the battery lasted years.


I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank.
Only did it once with a battery on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974.
It did fix it for a while but wether it will still work on modern batteries
which seem to have the plates much closer together I havent tried.
If the Ops battery is constructed like an original one he may be lucky but
I suspect compared to the car the battery is much younger and not so easy
to get the muck out.

And unless you have a source of free distilled water then the money
purchasing that may be be better put to buying a new battery which for a
moggy wont be too onerous at £50-£60 unlike the couple of hundred that
modern tailored batteries seem to be.

GH

In message , Marland
writes

And unless you have a source of free distilled water then the money
purchasing that may be be better put to buying a new battery which for a
moggy wont be too onerous at £50-£60 unlike the couple of hundred that
modern tailored batteries seem to be.

I tend to agree. Top of my head I would have said the current battery
is about three years old, but in reality, probably at least twice that.
Modern sealed battery and yes, around 50 pounds to replace.
--
Graeme

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 13:07:41 UTC+1, Marland wrote:

The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating at
the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with distilled
water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various cautions apply.

Did that long ago & the battery lasted years.


I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank.
Only did it once with a battery on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974.
It did fix it for a while but wether it will still work on modern batteries
which seem to have the plates much closer together I havent tried.
If the Ops battery is constructed like an original one he may be lucky but
I suspect compared to the car the battery is much younger and not so easy
to get the muck out.

I don't see any problem there

And unless you have a source of free distilled water then the money
purchasing that may be be better put to buying a new battery which for a
moggy wont be too onerous at £50-£60 unlike the couple of hundred that
modern tailored batteries seem to be.

GH

You can of course use the one lot of deionised water repeatedly. Lead compounds drop out quickly.


NT

In article ,
Marland wrote:
that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating at
the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with distilled
water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various cautions apply.

Did that long ago & the battery lasted years.


I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank. Only did it once with a battery
on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974. It did fix it for a while but
wether it will still work on modern batteries which seem to have the
plates much closer together I haven‘t tried.

Personally, I doubt it. Such a cheap and easy fix would be common
knowledge. Probably from the days when the separators were made of plywood.

I've found a decent make battery - not abused - has a far longer life now
than once was the case. My last Bosch did 11 years.

--
*Cleaned by Stevie Wonder, checked by David Blunkett*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:00:38 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Marland wrote:

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating at
the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with distilled
water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various cautions apply.

Did that long ago & the battery lasted years.


I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank. Only did it once with a battery
on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974. It did fix it for a while but
wether it will still work on modern batteries which seem to have the
plates much closer together I haven€˜t tried.

Personally, I doubt it. Such a cheap and easy fix would be common
knowledge. Probably from the days when the separators were made of plywood.

It's been known a long time, but most people are not suitable for the task due to the tipping about of acid. Nothing about modern batteries prevents it working.


NT

wrote:
On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:00:38 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Marland wrote:




I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank. Only did it once with a battery
on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974. It did fix it for a while but
wether it will still work on modern batteries which seem to have the
plates much closer together I haven€˜t tried.

Personally, I doubt it. Such a cheap and easy fix would be common
knowledge. Probably from the days when the separators were made of plywood.

It's been known a long time, but most people are not suitable for the
task due to the tipping about of acid. Nothing about modern batteries prevents it working.


A lot of modern batteries,and l think the op has said his is are described
as sealed.
They dont have nice threaded filler caps easily accessible, what filling
caps there are need a cover prised off to reach and in doing so the
integrity of that cover is destroyed and with it the mechanism for holding
the caps in place as they are not always threaded.
So you need to bodge up a way to fix it all back together again and not
leak in use.
May be worth doing if you are stuck in some remote place in Africa and have
no alternative but hardly worth the effort where you can purchase a battery
for the price of few pints and a couple of posh burgers down the pub.

GH

"Marland" wrote in message
...


The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a
charge. New battery time :-(

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead accumulating at
the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with distilled
water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various cautions
apply.

Did that long ago & the battery lasted years.


I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank.
Only did it once with a battery on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974.
It did fix it for a while but wether it will still work on modern
batteries
which seem to have the plates much closer together I havent tried.
If the Ops battery is constructed like an original one he may be lucky but
I suspect compared to the car the battery is much younger and not so easy
to get the muck out.

And unless you have a source of free distilled water then the money
purchasing that may be be better put to buying a new battery which for a
moggy wont be too onerous at £50-£60 unlike the couple of hundred that
modern tailored batteries seem to be.

Mine arent, same £50-£60 price.

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:00:38 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Marland wrote:

that or fix it. Self discharge can be caused by shed lead
accumulating at
the bottom of the cells. Tip acid out, rinse repeatedly with
distilled
water, return acid. Obviously the acid can eat you so various
cautions apply.

Did that long ago & the battery lasted years.


I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank. Only did it once with a battery
on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974. It did fix it for a while but
wether it will still work on modern batteries which seem to have the
plates much closer together I haven€˜t tried.

Personally, I doubt it. Such a cheap and easy fix would be common
knowledge. Probably from the days when the separators were made of
plywood.

It's been known a long time, but most people are not suitable for the task
due to
the tipping about of acid. Nothing about modern batteries prevents it
working.

Sealed batterys obviously does.

On Saturday, 5 May 2018 23:27:57 UTC+1, Marland wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:00:38 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Marland wrote:




I was told do that by a work colleague who had been in the submarine
service in WW2 in an engineering rank. Only did it once with a battery
on my Riley1.5 ,sometime around 1974. It did fix it for a while but
wether it will still work on modern batteries which seem to have the
plates much closer together I haven€˜t tried.

Personally, I doubt it. Such a cheap and easy fix would be common
knowledge. Probably from the days when the separators were made of plywood.

It's been known a long time, but most people are not suitable for the
task due to the tipping about of acid. Nothing about modern batteries prevents it working.


A lot of modern batteries,and l think the op has said his is are described
as sealed.
They dont have nice threaded filler caps easily accessible, what filling
caps there are need a cover prised off to reach and in doing so the
integrity of that cover is destroyed and with it the mechanism for holding
the caps in place as they are not always threaded.
So you need to bodge up a way to fix it all back together again and not
leak in use.
May be worth doing if you are stuck in some remote place in Africa and have
no alternative but hardly worth the effort where you can purchase a battery
for the price of few pints and a couple of posh burgers down the pub.

GH


'Sealed' lead acid batteries are never sealed. How exactly are they going to leak when they're open *at the top* just like lead acids have always been?


NT

wrote:
On Saturday, 5 May 2018 23:27:57 UTC+1, Marland wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:00:38 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Marland wrote:







A lot of modern batteries,and l think the op has said his is are described
as sealed.
They dont have nice threaded filler caps easily accessible, what filling
caps there are need a cover prised off to reach and in doing so the
integrity of that cover is destroyed and with it the mechanism for holding
the caps in place as they are not always threaded.
So you need to bodge up a way to fix it all back together again and not
leak in use.
May be worth doing if you are stuck in some remote place in Africa and have
no alternative but hardly worth the effort where you can purchase a battery
for the price of few pints and a couple of posh burgers down the pub.

GH


'Sealed' lead acid batteries are never sealed. How exactly are they going
to leak when they're open *at the top* just like lead acids have always been?


The filler caps on the old style batteries screwed in firmly, on a so
called sealed battery the equivalent caps are often just pushed in and the
mechanism for holding them tightly is part of the battery top installed at
time of manufacture and not intended to be removed again ,It is that part
that you will have had to prise off to get access to the filler caps and in
doing so may well have damaged that so it can no longer hold push fit caps
tightly.
The electrolyte may be happy when the vehicle is bowling along a smooth
motorway but bounce in and out of some the poor surfaces on some roads and
it will start to splash out.

GH

On Sunday, 6 May 2018 08:09:07 UTC+1, Marland wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 5 May 2018 23:27:57 UTC+1, Marland wrote:
tabbypurr wrote:
On Saturday, 5 May 2018 15:00:38 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Marland wrote:


A lot of modern batteries,and l think the op has said his is are described
as sealed.
They dont have nice threaded filler caps easily accessible, what filling
caps there are need a cover prised off to reach and in doing so the
integrity of that cover is destroyed and with it the mechanism for holding
the caps in place as they are not always threaded.
So you need to bodge up a way to fix it all back together again and not
leak in use.
May be worth doing if you are stuck in some remote place in Africa and have
no alternative but hardly worth the effort where you can purchase a battery
for the price of few pints and a couple of posh burgers down the pub.

GH


'Sealed' lead acid batteries are never sealed. How exactly are they going
to leak when they're open *at the top* just like lead acids have always been?


The filler caps on the old style batteries screwed in firmly, on a so
called sealed battery the equivalent caps are often just pushed in and the
mechanism for holding them tightly is part of the battery top installed at
time of manufacture and not intended to be removed again ,It is that part
that you will have had to prise off to get access to the filler caps and in

which is fairly easy

doing so may well have damaged that so it can no longer hold push fit caps
tightly.

it doesn't need to

The electrolyte may be happy when the vehicle is bowling along a smooth
motorway but bounce in and out of some the poor surfaces on some roads and
it will start to splash out.

I've carried enough liquid in vehicles to know that's unrealistic. Even without the rubber or plastic covers it would work. If you're the sort that climbs up mountainsides at over 45 degrees to the horizontal and literally bounces the car going down, then I wouldn't.


NT