The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?

--
Graeme

Graeme wrote:

The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?


May just be a dud battery. Have you checked for parasitic current drain
with the ignition off?

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 01/05/2018 10:25, Graeme wrote:

The Morris again.Â* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running.Â* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem.Â* 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine.Â* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original.Â* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light.Â* About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition.Â* No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?

With apologies in advance if the question's insulting, have you measured
the current drawn from the battery to check that that is the definitely
the problem (as opposed to a knackered battery)?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
Graeme wrote:

The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?


IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate
the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on
the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand,
the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would draw
considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing
those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new
dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity.

But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one for
a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I once
knew - if I indeed did. ;-)

--
*Black holes are where God divided by zero *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/05/2018 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme wrote:

The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?


IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate
the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on
the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand,
the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would draw
considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing
those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new
dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity.

But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one for
a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I once
knew - if I indeed did. ;-)


47 years in my case; but I still recall the un-joy of trying to clean
and then adjust the contacts.

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 01/05/18 11:12, Robin wrote:
On 01/05/2018 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Â*Â*Â* Graeme wrote:

The Morris again.Â* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running.Â* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem.Â* 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine.Â* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original.Â* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light.Â* About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition.Â* No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?


IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate
the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on
the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand,
the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would
draw
considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing
those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new
dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity.

But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one
for
a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I
once
knewÂ* - if I indeed did. ;-)


47 years in my case; but I still recall the un-joy of trying to clean
and then adjust the contacts.

You needed a decent meter to do that.



--
To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote.

On 01/05/2018 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Graeme wrote:

The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?


IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate
the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on
the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand,
the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would draw
considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing
those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new
dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity.

But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one for
a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I once
knew - if I indeed did. ;-)

Correct, the boxes are normally openable IIRC (they might be riveted
closed) and the contacts are fairly obvious. So easy enough to check
before buying a new one. I'm sure there will be drawings on the web.

On 01/05/18 10:25, Graeme wrote:

The Morris again.Â* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo,
control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when
running.Â* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem.Â* 24
hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over
engine.Â* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original.Â* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light.Â* About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but
they are wired through the ignition.Â* No radio, heated rear screen or
anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed
anything obvious?

It sounds like you are drawing about half an amp.

I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with
everything 'off' and see.

half an amp is less than I would expect a faulty control box to draw.

I think you should start tracing where that current is going before
spending money.

This sounds to me almost like an interior light or similar.

Check what is across the battery that is OUTSIDE of the ignition switch
- typically the headlights and other lights are and courtesy lights and
maybe glove vompatment lights.

It isn't the ignition switch as te coil draws about 6-12A!!! and will
flatten a battery in a few hours.

I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay
sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke
as the dynamo will be a dead short across it.



--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with
everything 'off' and see.

OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2
inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car.

I haven't done any formal testing as yet, but am trying to be logical.
When parked, I can see that the lights, including interior light, are
off. No boot light or anything like that, yet I agree, it sounds just
like an interior light fault.

Strangely, the courtesy lights were not working until a week or so ago,
when I flooded the door switches with contact cleaner, and now both
work, but, if one or both was shorting, the interior light wouldn't come
on with the doors open, but it does? With the doors closed, the
interior light works using the interior on/off switch, which I wouldn't
expect it to do, if the courtesy light switches were shorting. Getting
at the rear of the door pillar switches is a bit of a nightmare.

The battery is fairly new (couple of years) and gets little use. Removed
from car over winter, and trickle charged occasionally, during the
winter.

Dynamo must be working, as the battery is fully charged after a run.
--
Graeme

Graeme wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes

I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with
everything 'off' and see.

OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2
inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car.

I haven't done any formal testing as yet, but am trying to be logical.
When parked, I can see that the lights, including interior light, are
off. No boot light or anything like that, yet I agree, it sounds just
like an interior light fault.

Strangely, the courtesy lights were not working until a week or so ago,


Hmm, battery €œsuddenly losing charge€�. €œCourtesy lights were not working
until a week ago€�...

Seems to me your fault isnt too far away...

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

In message
,
Tim+ writes
Hmm, battery €œsuddenly losing charge€�. €œCourtesy lights were not working
until a week ago€�...

Seems to me your fault isnt too far away...

I agree. I'm going to follow the suggestion of putting the ammeter
between battery -ve and chassis, with everything off, and look for a
reading. Assuming there is one, I'll then disconnect the interior light
at the fuse box, and see what happens.
--
Graeme

On Tuesday, 1 May 2018 12:46:53 UTC+1, Graeme wrote:
In message
,
Tim+ writes
Hmm, battery €œsuddenly losing charge€�. €œCourtesy lights were not working
until a week ago€�...

Seems to me your fault isnt too far away...

I agree. I'm going to follow the suggestion of putting the ammeter
between battery -ve and chassis, with everything off, and look for a
reading. Assuming there is one, I'll then disconnect the interior light
at the fuse box, and see what happens.

Luxury! My last history piece had a twin fuseholder, but they weren't connected.


NT

In article ,
Graeme wrote:
OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2
inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car.

I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a
30-0-30 ammeter.

A decent automotive one is worth the extra. Will include a dwell meter for
instant checking of the points gap without dismantling, and an RPM
function too.

--
*Two wrongs are only the beginning *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2
inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car.

I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a
30-0-30 ammeter.

Not a bad idea. Thanks.

In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run
and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to
see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later.
--
Graeme

In article ,
Graeme wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2
inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car.

I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a
30-0-30 ammeter.

Not a bad idea. Thanks.

In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run
and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to
see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later.

Incidentally, worth keeping an eye out for the Haynes manual on auto
electrics at autojumbles, etc. Far far better than the normal car manuals.
Mine does cover dynamos and control boxes.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Graeme wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2
inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car.

I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a
30-0-30 ammeter.

Not a bad idea. Thanks.

In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run
and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to
see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later.

Why not just disconnect the battery for a couple of days? Thatll soon
reveal whether its a battery fault or something draining the battery.

Tim

--
Please don't feed the trolls

On 01/05/2018 16:29, Graeme wrote:

In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run
and disconnected the feed to the interior light.Â* Will be interesting to
see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later.

Be interesting to see how well charged you are. You do mean a run don't you?

Bill

Graeme wrote :
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
Graeme wrote:
OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2
inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car.

I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a
30-0-30 ammeter.

Not a bad idea. Thanks.

In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run and
disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to see how
well charged the battery is, 24 hours later.

A very low wattage 12v bulb, such as a 2.2watt warning light bulb, can
be connected between the battery and a removed battery cable (in
series) to show any discharge when parked. If it lights, something is
trying to draw current.

Graeme wrote on 01/05/2018 :
Getting at the rear of the door pillar switches is a bit of a nightmare.

They usually can be pulled out via the face.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay
sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke
as the dynamo will be a dead short across it.


There are two and three 'bobbin' regulators used. Only the 3 bobbin one
includes reasonably accurate current limiting. The MMs I knew had two
bobbin types. Three being used on more expensive cars.

--
*Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

?Aren't door pillar switches often a push fit and easily pulled out for
chacking?

In message 2,
DerbyBorn writes


?Aren't door pillar switches often a push fit and easily pulled out for
chacking?

These are a huge cross head screw, notoriously difficult to undo, 50
years later.
--
Graeme

On 01/05/2018 17:35, Graeme wrote:


These are a huge cross head screw, notoriously difficult to undo, 50
years later.

Angle grinder

Bill

is this the point where somebody wheels out the old joke about the girl
running for a buss?
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay
sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke
as the dynamo will be a dead short across it.


There are two and three 'bobbin' regulators used. Only the 3 bobbin one
includes reasonably accurate current limiting. The MMs I knew had two
bobbin types. Three being used on more expensive cars.

--
*Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of
view

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 01/05/2018 11:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/05/18 10:25, Graeme wrote:

The Morris again.Â* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still
dynamo, control box etc.

Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges
when running.Â* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no
problem.Â* 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about
turn over engine.Â* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only.

I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is
almost certainly original.Â* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be
left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have
checked, ditto interior light.Â* About the only other electrical
accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower,
but they are wired through the ignition.Â* No radio, heated rear screen
or anything like that.

Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just
replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I
missed anything obvious?

It sounds like you are drawing about half an amp.

I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with
everything 'off' and see.

half an amp is less than I would expect a faulty control box to draw.

I think you should start tracing where that current is going before
spending money.

This sounds to me almost like an interior light or similar.

Check what is across the battery that is OUTSIDE of the ignition switch
- typically the headlights and other lights are and courtesy lights and
maybe glove vompatment lights.

It isn't the ignition switch as te coil draws about 6-12A!!! and will
flatten a battery in a few hours.

I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay
sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke
as the dynamo will be a dead short across it.



+1. A mate of mine had a similar problem once, it turned out to be that
the radio was drawing power even when switched off (and the light went
out properly).

In article ,
newshound wrote:
+1. A mate of mine had a similar problem once, it turned out to be that
the radio was drawing power even when switched off (and the light went
out properly).

Not unusual for a radio to draw some current when switched off. Station
memory, etc.

You need to check how much current is being drawn from the battery with
everything off. On a basic Morris Minor, probably zero is correct. But on
most modern cars something like 40mA or so is normal.

--
*This message has been ROT-13 encrypted twice for extra security *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

You need to check how much current is being drawn from the battery with
everything off. On a basic Morris Minor, probably zero is correct. But on
most modern cars something like 40mA or so is normal.

No radio fitted and yes, the current draw should be zero with everything
off. Car untouched since a 20+ mile run on Tuesday afternoon, when I
disconnected the interior light, so I'll try the starter later this
morning. With a little luck, battery will still be fully charged,
having convinced myself that current is leaking through one (or both) of
the courtesy light switches.
--
Graeme

In article ,
Graeme wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes

You need to check how much current is being drawn from the battery with
everything off. On a basic Morris Minor, probably zero is correct. But on
most modern cars something like 40mA or so is normal.

No radio fitted and yes, the current draw should be zero with everything
off. Car untouched since a 20+ mile run on Tuesday afternoon, when I
disconnected the interior light, so I'll try the starter later this
morning. With a little luck, battery will still be fully charged,
having convinced myself that current is leaking through one (or both) of
the courtesy light switches.

Those switches tend to be a pretty basic design with widely spaced
contacts when open. If they are reasonably clean, I'd be surprised if they
could 'leak'.

But no point in guessing. A decent DVM will measure any quiescent current
flow accurately.

BTW, one of those battery disconnect devices is very useful when working
on car electrics. It fits between a battery post and cable (normally in
the ground lead), so easy to fit. Has a wheel you unscrew by hand to
disconnect the battery. Also makes measuring that current easy.

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.