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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Lucas control box problem?
The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? -- Graeme |
#2
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
Graeme wrote: The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand, the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would draw considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity. But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one for a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I once knew - if I indeed did. ;-) -- *Black holes are where God divided by zero * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#3
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Lucas control box problem?
Graeme wrote:
The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? May just be a dud battery. Have you checked for parasitic current drain with the ignition off? Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#4
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/2018 10:25, Graeme wrote:
The Morris again.* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running.* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem.* 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine.* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original.* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light.* About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition.* No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? With apologies in advance if the question's insulting, have you measured the current drawn from the battery to check that that is the definitely the problem (as opposed to a knackered battery)? -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#5
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/2018 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Graeme wrote: The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand, the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would draw considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity. But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one for a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I once knew - if I indeed did. ;-) 47 years in my case; but I still recall the un-joy of trying to clean and then adjust the contacts. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#6
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/18 10:25, Graeme wrote:
The Morris again.* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running.* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem.* 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine.* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original.* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light.* About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition.* No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? It sounds like you are drawing about half an amp. I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with everything 'off' and see. half an amp is less than I would expect a faulty control box to draw. I think you should start tracing where that current is going before spending money. This sounds to me almost like an interior light or similar. Check what is across the battery that is OUTSIDE of the ignition switch - typically the headlights and other lights are and courtesy lights and maybe glove vompatment lights. It isn't the ignition switch as te coil draws about 6-12A!!! and will flatten a battery in a few hours. I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke as the dynamo will be a dead short across it. -- "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere" |
#7
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/18 11:12, Robin wrote:
On 01/05/2018 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , *** Graeme wrote: The Morris again.* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running.* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem.* 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine.* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original.* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light.* About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition.* No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand, the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would draw considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity. But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one for a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I once knew* - if I indeed did. ;-) 47 years in my case; but I still recall the un-joy of trying to clean and then adjust the contacts. You needed a decent meter to do that. -- To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote. |
#8
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with everything 'off' and see. OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2 inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car. I haven't done any formal testing as yet, but am trying to be logical. When parked, I can see that the lights, including interior light, are off. No boot light or anything like that, yet I agree, it sounds just like an interior light fault. Strangely, the courtesy lights were not working until a week or so ago, when I flooded the door switches with contact cleaner, and now both work, but, if one or both was shorting, the interior light wouldn't come on with the doors open, but it does? With the doors closed, the interior light works using the interior on/off switch, which I wouldn't expect it to do, if the courtesy light switches were shorting. Getting at the rear of the door pillar switches is a bit of a nightmare. The battery is fairly new (couple of years) and gets little use. Removed from car over winter, and trickle charged occasionally, during the winter. Dynamo must be working, as the battery is fully charged after a run. -- Graeme |
#9
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/2018 10:52, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Graeme wrote: The Morris again. Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running. Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem. 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine. 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original. This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light. About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition. No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? IIRC, there are contacts inside the control box (a relay) which isolate the battery from the dynamo when it isn't charging. With no fan belt on the car, and charge in the battery, if you make those contacts by hand, the dynamo will motor. And I have seen them welded closed. That would draw considerable current and flatten the battery very quickly. BTW, closing those contacts by hand was a quick and dirty way of polarizing a new dynamo, or re-polarizing one after changing the ground polarity. But I'd not claim to be an expert on those control boxes - not had one for a very long time indeed. Perhaps 40 years, so likely forgotten what I once knew - if I indeed did. ;-) Correct, the boxes are normally openable IIRC (they might be riveted closed) and the contacts are fairly obvious. So easy enough to check before buying a new one. I'm sure there will be drawings on the web. |
#10
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Lucas control box problem?
Graeme wrote:
In message , The Natural Philosopher writes I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with everything 'off' and see. OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2 inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car. I haven't done any formal testing as yet, but am trying to be logical. When parked, I can see that the lights, including interior light, are off. No boot light or anything like that, yet I agree, it sounds just like an interior light fault. Strangely, the courtesy lights were not working until a week or so ago, Hmm, battery suddenly losing charge. Courtesy lights were not working until a week ago... Seems to me your fault isnt too far away... Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#11
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Lucas control box problem?
In message
, Tim+ writes Hmm, battery suddenly losing charge. Courtesy lights were not working until a week ago... Seems to me your fault isnt too far away... I agree. I'm going to follow the suggestion of putting the ammeter between battery -ve and chassis, with everything off, and look for a reading. Assuming there is one, I'll then disconnect the interior light at the fuse box, and see what happens. -- Graeme |
#12
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
Graeme wrote: OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2 inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car. I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a 30-0-30 ammeter. A decent automotive one is worth the extra. Will include a dwell meter for instant checking of the points gap without dismantling, and an RPM function too. -- *Two wrongs are only the beginning * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#13
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote: I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke as the dynamo will be a dead short across it. There are two and three 'bobbin' regulators used. Only the 3 bobbin one includes reasonably accurate current limiting. The MMs I knew had two bobbin types. Three being used on more expensive cars. -- *Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#14
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes In article , Graeme wrote: OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2 inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car. I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a 30-0-30 ammeter. Not a bad idea. Thanks. In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later. -- Graeme |
#15
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Lucas control box problem?
?Aren't door pillar switches often a push fit and easily pulled out for chacking? |
#16
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
Graeme wrote: In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes In article , Graeme wrote: OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2 inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car. I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a 30-0-30 ammeter. Not a bad idea. Thanks. In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later. Incidentally, worth keeping an eye out for the Haynes manual on auto electrics at autojumbles, etc. Far far better than the normal car manuals. Mine does cover dynamos and control boxes. -- *Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#17
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Lucas control box problem?
Graeme wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes In article , Graeme wrote: OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2 inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car. I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a 30-0-30 ammeter. Not a bad idea. Thanks. In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later. Why not just disconnect the battery for a couple of days? Thatll soon reveal whether its a battery fault or something draining the battery. Tim -- Please don't feed the trolls |
#18
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Lucas control box problem?
In message 2,
DerbyBorn writes ?Aren't door pillar switches often a push fit and easily pulled out for chacking? These are a huge cross head screw, notoriously difficult to undo, 50 years later. -- Graeme |
#19
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes Incidentally, worth keeping an eye out for the Haynes manual on auto electrics at autojumbles, etc. Far far better than the normal car manuals. Mine does cover dynamos and control boxes. Sounds interesting, thanks. I do have the Haynes MM manual, and a few others, but will keep a lookout for the auto electrics one. -- Graeme |
#20
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Lucas control box problem?
In message
, Tim+ writes In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later. Why not just disconnect the battery for a couple of days? Thatll soon reveal whether its a battery fault or something draining the battery. Yes, that is Plan B. The first idea (as above) should confirm whether or not the interior light is draining the battery, whereas disconnecting the battery will only confirm 'something' is draining the battery. -- Graeme |
#21
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/2018 16:29, Graeme wrote:
In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run and disconnected the feed to the interior light.* Will be interesting to see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later. Be interesting to see how well charged you are. You do mean a run don't you? Bill |
#22
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/2018 17:35, Graeme wrote:
These are a huge cross head screw, notoriously difficult to undo, 50 years later. Angle grinder Bill |
#23
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Lucas control box problem?
Graeme wrote on 01/05/2018 :
Getting at the rear of the door pillar switches is a bit of a nightmare. They usually can be pulled out via the face. |
#24
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Lucas control box problem?
Graeme wrote :
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes In article , Graeme wrote: OK, sounds sensible. I do have ammeter and volt meter, standard car 2 inch jobs, although neither are fitted to the car. I'd get myself a DVM. That will measure low current accurately. Unlike a 30-0-30 ammeter. Not a bad idea. Thanks. In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile run and disconnected the feed to the interior light. Will be interesting to see how well charged the battery is, 24 hours later. A very low wattage 12v bulb, such as a 2.2watt warning light bulb, can be connected between the battery and a removed battery cable (in series) to show any discharge when parked. If it lights, something is trying to draw current. |
#25
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , Bill Wright
writes On 01/05/2018 16:29, Graeme wrote: In the meantime, other stuff has arisen but I've been for a 20 mile Be interesting to see how well charged you are. You do mean a run don't you? g If I ran 20 miles I would be well beyond recharging! -- Graeme |
#26
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , Harry Bloomfield
writes A very low wattage 12v bulb, such as a 2.2watt warning light bulb, can be connected between the battery and a removed battery cable (in series) to show any discharge when parked. If it lights, something is trying to draw current. Excellent idea, and I do have a good supply of low wattage 12v MES bulbs, as used in older cars and 'wireless' illuminated dials. Occurred to me last night that I should remove the translucent cover from the interior light, which I said was off - it could be glowing slightly. -- Graeme |
#27
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Lucas control box problem?
On 02/05/2018 07:35, Graeme wrote:
In message , Harry Bloomfield writes A very low wattage 12v bulb, such as a 2.2watt warning light bulb, can be connected between the battery and a removed battery cable (in series) to show any discharge when parked. If it lights, something is trying to draw current. Excellent idea, and I do have a good supply of low wattage 12v MES bulbs, as used in older cars and 'wireless' illuminated dials. Occurred to me last night that I should remove the translucent cover from the interior light, which I said was off - it could be glowing slightly. Don't suppose one of your newly-working door-switches could be 'leaky'? (as in presenting a small resistance even when in the 'off' position) Accumulated crud, damp, etc would cause that. Removing the bulb from the interior light and leaving the car overnight would confirm this. I ran a Moggy Traveller for a few years. Lovely little car, not a lot to go wrong - 'twas the soggy, salt-laden, West Cork atmosphere that finally did for the woodwork.... |
#28
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , Adrian Brentnall
writes Don't suppose one of your newly-working door-switches could be 'leaky'? (as in presenting a small resistance even when in the 'off' position) Well, that is certainly my suspicion. Removing the bulb from the interior light and leaving the car overnight would confirm this. Yesterday, I disconnected the interior light feed at the fuse box, which will have the same result, I hope. I ran a Moggy Traveller for a few years. Lovely little car, not a lot to go wrong - 'twas the soggy, salt-laden, West Cork atmosphere that finally did for the woodwork.... Yes. My Traveller had the wood renewed about 30 years ago, and I keep it covered when not in use, and use is limited to dry days only. The wood is still hard, but a lot of varnish has flaked off and needs redoing. -- Graeme |
#29
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Lucas control box problem?
On 02/05/2018 10:04, Graeme wrote:
In message , Adrian Brentnall writes Don't suppose one of your newly-working door-switches could be 'leaky'? (as in presenting a small resistance even when in the 'off' position) Well, that is certainly my suspicion. It's likely.... Removing the bulb from the interior light and leaving the car overnight would confirm this. Yesterday, I disconnected the interior light feed at the fuse box, which will have the same result, I hope. Should do. If I remember rightly it goes '12v - fuse - bulb - door-switch - chassis' It's possible that the wiring could be chafed somewhere between bulb and chassis - but I'd imagine that you're more likely to get a low resistance 'short' in the physical switch, with accumulated damp & grot. I ran a Moggy Traveller for a few years. Lovely little car, not a lot to go wrong - 'twas the soggy, salt-laden, West Cork atmosphere that finally did for the woodwork.... Yes.* My Traveller had the wood renewed about 30 years ago, and I keep it covered when not in use, and use is limited to dry days only. Mine was a daily driver. If it had been limited to dry days only then it wouldn't have seen much mileage... * The wood is still hard, but a lot of varnish has flaked off and needs redoing. That's a worthwhile job. Once the damp gets in you're in trouble. I bought my Mog (sight unseen) from the crowd in Bristol. They'd bought it in from somebody who'd restored it. They did their 'Gold' service before delivering it - it arrived with an MOT, one tyre showing the wire reinforcement, what turned out to be a defective (new) condensor which produced a random misfire under load, a whole heap of other minor (?Minor g) niggles - and, best of all, they'd replaced the petrol feed pipe with non-petrol-safe heater hose - which dissolved in about 6 months... Exhaust also fell off about 2 months in. I wasn't impressed with their service - but loved the car... Eventually sold it on to somebody who had the time to renew the woodwork and keep it under cover - sad to see it go, but I needed transport, not a hobby g |
#30
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote: I wasn't impressed with their service - but loved the car... Eventually sold it on to somebody who had the time to renew the woodwork and keep it under cover - sad to see it go, but I needed transport, not a hobby g It's a total fallacy you can use the average classic car as everyday transport as easily as a modern one. They all require far more regular attention. And that is going to be expensive, if not a DIY labour of love. The was a fashion for Moggies round here a few years ago. About half a dozen nearby. For perhaps a year or so, then they all moved on. I only talked to one of the owners. Her car has been bought as updated for modern use - later lead free engine with alternator, and disc brakes with servo etc. But obviously not the car for life she thought he was buying. -- *How about "never"? Is "never" good for you? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#31
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Lucas control box problem?
is this the point where somebody wheels out the old joke about the girl
running for a buss? Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , The Natural Philosopher wrote: I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke as the dynamo will be a dead short across it. There are two and three 'bobbin' regulators used. Only the 3 bobbin one includes reasonably accurate current limiting. The MMs I knew had two bobbin types. Three being used on more expensive cars. -- *Thank you. We're all refreshed and challenged by your unique point of view Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#32
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Lucas control box problem?
On 02/05/2018 14:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Adrian Brentnall wrote: I wasn't impressed with their service - but loved the car... Eventually sold it on to somebody who had the time to renew the woodwork and keep it under cover - sad to see it go, but I needed transport, not a hobby g It's a total fallacy you can use the average classic car as everyday transport as easily as a modern one. They all require far more regular attention. And that is going to be expensive, if not a DIY labour of love. The was a fashion for Moggies round here a few years ago. About half a dozen nearby. For perhaps a year or so, then they all moved on. I only talked to one of the owners. Her car has been bought as updated for modern use - later lead free engine with alternator, and disc brakes with servo etc. But obviously not the car for life she thought he was buying. As I say - it was the woodwork that killed it. There's a few of the Moggie vans and Saloons around here - and they're daily drivers... I used it for daily transport and trading at two markets a week - great fun and very practical... Only drawback was the number of people who turned up, usually as I was trying to pack up at the end of the day, and insisted on telling me how their uncle/aunt had one / how they're made from wood, you know, or how they were conceived in the back of one. All very interesting, but not when you're trying to get off home! g |
#33
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , Adrian Brentnall
writes Only drawback was the number of people who turned up, usually as I was trying to pack up at the end of the day, and insisted on telling me how their uncle/aunt had one / how they're made from wood, you know, or how they were conceived in the back of one. All very interesting, but not when you're trying to get off home! g Agreed! The Traveller is a great talking point, and initiates many a conversation with strangers. Mine was my only vehicle for several years, and was certainly practical although, as Dave said, did require more attention than a modern car. Same applies now, in use as a fun car only. Our modern car, I open the bonnet and shut it again, in horror, never doing much more than checking the washer bottle level. -- Graeme |
#34
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Lucas control box problem?
On 01/05/2018 11:15, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 01/05/18 10:25, Graeme wrote: The Morris again.* Just to recap, 1968, now -ve earth but still dynamo, control box etc. Suddenly started to flatten the battery whilst parked, but charges when running.* Restarting a couple of hours after a good run, no problem.* 24 hours after a run, battery sluggish but will just about turn over engine.* 48 hours after a good run, starting by handle only. I have convinced myself the problem is the Lucas control box, which is almost certainly original.* This is a Minor, so there is nothing to be left on when the car is not running, other than lights, which I have checked, ditto interior light.* About the only other electrical accessories are indicators, wipers and simple on/off heater blower, but they are wired through the ignition.* No radio, heated rear screen or anything like that. Given that control boxes are around twenty quid, I'm tempted to just replace the old one and see if that fixes the problem, but have I missed anything obvious? It sounds like you are drawing about half an amp. I would definitely put an ammeter in the +ve battery circuit with everything 'off' and see. half an amp is less than I would expect a faulty control box to draw. I think you should start tracing where that current is going before spending money. This sounds to me almost like an interior light or similar. Check what is across the battery that is OUTSIDE of the ignition switch - typically the headlights and other lights are and courtesy lights and maybe glove vompatment lights. It isn't the ignition switch as te coil draws about 6-12A!!! and will flatten a battery in a few hours. I cant see that it can be the control box - if the overcurrent relay sticks closed, then frankly the battery will be flat in seconds of smoke as the dynamo will be a dead short across it. +1. A mate of mine had a similar problem once, it turned out to be that the radio was drawing power even when switched off (and the light went out properly). |
#35
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
newshound wrote: +1. A mate of mine had a similar problem once, it turned out to be that the radio was drawing power even when switched off (and the light went out properly). Not unusual for a radio to draw some current when switched off. Station memory, etc. You need to check how much current is being drawn from the battery with everything off. On a basic Morris Minor, probably zero is correct. But on most modern cars something like 40mA or so is normal. -- *This message has been ROT-13 encrypted twice for extra security * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#36
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes You need to check how much current is being drawn from the battery with everything off. On a basic Morris Minor, probably zero is correct. But on most modern cars something like 40mA or so is normal. No radio fitted and yes, the current draw should be zero with everything off. Car untouched since a 20+ mile run on Tuesday afternoon, when I disconnected the interior light, so I'll try the starter later this morning. With a little luck, battery will still be fully charged, having convinced myself that current is leaking through one (or both) of the courtesy light switches. -- Graeme |
#37
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
Graeme wrote: In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes You need to check how much current is being drawn from the battery with everything off. On a basic Morris Minor, probably zero is correct. But on most modern cars something like 40mA or so is normal. No radio fitted and yes, the current draw should be zero with everything off. Car untouched since a 20+ mile run on Tuesday afternoon, when I disconnected the interior light, so I'll try the starter later this morning. With a little luck, battery will still be fully charged, having convinced myself that current is leaking through one (or both) of the courtesy light switches. Those switches tend to be a pretty basic design with widely spaced contacts when open. If they are reasonably clean, I'd be surprised if they could 'leak'. But no point in guessing. A decent DVM will measure any quiescent current flow accurately. BTW, one of those battery disconnect devices is very useful when working on car electrics. It fits between a battery post and cable (normally in the ground lead), so easy to fit. Has a wheel you unscrew by hand to disconnect the battery. Also makes measuring that current easy. -- *If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#38
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Lucas control box problem?
On Tuesday, 1 May 2018 12:46:53 UTC+1, Graeme wrote:
In message , Tim+ writes Hmm, battery suddenly losing charge. Courtesy lights were not working until a week ago... Seems to me your fault isnt too far away... I agree. I'm going to follow the suggestion of putting the ammeter between battery -ve and chassis, with everything off, and look for a reading. Assuming there is one, I'll then disconnect the interior light at the fuse box, and see what happens. Luxury! My last history piece had a twin fuseholder, but they weren't connected. NT |
#39
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Lucas control box problem?
In article ,
wrote: On Tuesday, 1 May 2018 12:46:53 UTC+1, Graeme wrote: In message , Tim+ writes Hmm, battery suddenly losing charge. Courtesy lights were not working until a week ago... Seems to me your fault isnt too far away... I agree. I'm going to follow the suggestion of putting the ammeter between battery -ve and chassis, with everything off, and look for a reading. Assuming there is one, I'll then disconnect the interior light at the fuse box, and see what happens. Luxury! My last history piece had a twin fuseholder, but they weren't connected. The two fuse system was very common on older simple cars with Lucas electrics up until the 60s or so. One fuse each for ignition controlled 'accessories' and always live ones. With provision for two spare fuses in the unit. Take one of those spares and push it between the two fuses - it fitted nicely - and on comes the ignition, with no key. Push or pull the starter switch or relay and the engine starts and you're off. ;-) -- *You are validating my inherent mistrust of strangers Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#40
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Lucas control box problem?
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes One fuse each for ignition controlled 'accessories' and always live ones. With provision for two spare fuses in the unit. Take one of those spares and push it between the two fuses - it fitted nicely - and on comes the ignition, with no key. Push or pull the starter switch or relay and the engine starts and you're off. ;-) I didn't know that! Will try :-) In the meantime, back to square one. Yesterday, I removed the battery and trickle charged overnight. Put it in the car this morning, and tried an ammeter and a bulb between the battery terminal and earth strap. Nothing. Tried again with door open (and therefore courtesy light) and the ammeter twitched just enough to show current flowing. Shut the door again, and no twitching, so it isn't the courtesy light switches, or, presumably, anything else causing a short. Tried the same test using a small 12v bulb, as mentioned by Harry. With the door open, the test bulb lit, but not with the door closed, proving (?) that, with the ignition off and nothing else on, no current is flowing. The battery takes a charge, but it must be the battery not holding a charge. New battery time :-( -- Graeme |
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