I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired
(secondhand) mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring
diagrams for it but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not
connected in any of the wiring diagrams I have. The C connector seems
(in most cases) to be connected to switched battery +ve, i.e. it will
get 12v on it when the ignition is turned on. The L connector has me
totally confused, it's connected to the engine hours meter and thence
via an 82 ohm resistor to something that will be at 12v when things
are running normally. The regulator is connected to ground/0v by its
case. The alternator has a connection direct to battery +12v in
addition to its two G G connections.

The Hatz engine is German so the letters may mean something in German.

I'm not at home at the moment so I can't provide a picture or much
more detail.

Any information or pointers would be most welcome.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green Wrote in message:
I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired
(secondhand) mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring
diagrams for it but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not
connected in any of the wiring diagrams I have.


Could W be for a tachometer?

Tim


--

Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green Wrote in message:
I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired
(secondhand) mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring
diagrams for it but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not
connected in any of the wiring diagrams I have.


Could W be for a tachometer?

Possibly, what's the German for tachometer? :-)

--
Chris Green
·

On 22/04/2018 19:33, Tim+ wrote:
Chris Green Wrote in message:
I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired
(secondhand) mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring
diagrams for it but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not
connected in any of the wiring diagrams I have.


Could W be for a tachometer?

Tim


Wellenform. Waveform. For a rev counter?

Bill

Chris Green Wrote in message:
I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired
(secondhand) mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring
diagrams for it but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not
connected in any of the wiring diagrams I have. The C connector seems
(in most cases) to be connected to switched battery +ve, i.e. it will
get 12v on it when the ignition is turned on. The L connector has me
totally confused, it's connected to the engine hours meter and thence
via an 82 ohm resistor to something that will be at 12v when things
are running normally. The regulator is connected to ground/0v by its
case. The alternator has a connection direct to battery +12v in
addition to its two G G connections.

The Hatz engine is German so the letters may mean something in German.

I'm not at home at the moment so I can't provide a picture or much
more detail.

Any information or pointers would be most welcome.

--
Chris Green
·


Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

(If a dynamo then there is)

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Sun, 22 Apr 2018 21:48:46 +0100, Jim K wrote:

Chris Green Wrote in message:
I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired (secondhand)
mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring diagrams for it
but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not connected
in any of the wiring diagrams I have. The C connector seems (in most
cases) to be connected to switched battery +ve, i.e. it will get 12v on
it when the ignition is turned on. The L connector has me totally
confused, it's connected to the engine hours meter and thence via an 82
ohm resistor to something that will be at 12v when things are running
normally. The regulator is connected to ground/0v by its case. The
alternator has a connection direct to battery +12v in addition to its
two G G connections.

The Hatz engine is German so the letters may mean something in German.

I'm not at home at the moment so I can't provide a picture or much more
detail.

Any information or pointers would be most welcome.

--
Chris Green ·


Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

Although every car alternator I've seen incorporates the regulator into
the alternator itself, that's not necessarily true of the 24v alternators
used on trucks and HGVs. I used such an alternator obtained from a
scrapyard as a replacement to the dynastart on the 2 cylinder auxiliary
petrol engine on my father's 30 foot ocean going sloop some forty odd
years ago.

This engine also had provision for a standard electric starter motor
with which it had been equipped so the dynastart was only being used for
the dynamo function alone. Dynamos being the inefficient things that they
are, it seemed a good idea to uprate this aspect of battery charging with
an alternator to reduce fuel consumption when running the engine just to
top up the battery and power the electrical systems (radio, navigation
lights etc).

The battery power system on the sloop was just your standard 6 cell 12v
LA type but this wasn't a problem since I merely had to design and build
a 12v (14v actually) regulator box to connect to the alternator. The main
six diode 3 phase full wave rectifier pack with the usual additional 3
auxiliary regulator diodes were, as with all such alternators, built into
the alternator itself so it was simply a matter of making connections
from the regulator box to the two slip ring brushes and the auxiliary
rectifier, along with a common earth connection, with the negative side
of the ignition light that had formerly gone to the dynamo's regulator
now being connected to the auxiliary diode's connection on the regulator
box swiftly modified with an extra on/off switch for a reason that will
shortly become apparent.

The dynastart double V grooved pully was only about 2 or 3 inches in
diameter[1] and was driven by just a single V belt, rather than the two
required to handle a starting torque load, wrapped around about an 18
inch diameter flywheel. This gave something like a six to one speed
advantage for the dynamo function whilst providing the converse torque
advantage for the now unused starting function. The gearing up was
necessary because, iirc, the engine maxed out at a mere 1800rpm or so,
maybe ticking over around the 3 to 4 hundred rpm mark. This meant we
needed to run the engine at a wastefully higher than normal idle speed
just to recharge the battery despite the six fold faster rpms of the
dynamo, circa two or three thousand rpm to get maximum output.

Using an alternator designed to produce some 28v for charging a truck's
24v battery meant we could get a useful charge at the normal tickover
speed without wasting as much fuel. Obviously, the torque loading from
generating current at such slow tickover meant the engine actually had to
do a little more work than merely overcome its own frictional and pumping
losses (and that of the drive belt) but we only had to open the throttle
a tad extra to compensate whilst running no faster than the normal idling
speed which was a way more efficient and quieter way to generate
electricity than before.

The only issue was that if the alternator load was allowed to kick in
straight away on startup, it would usually bog the engine down due to one
of the cylinders failing to fire up straight from cold. Without such
loading the engine could get up to tickover speed, allowing the reluctant
cylinder to start firing shortly thereafter. The solution was that
additional on/off switch to prevent the regulator exciting the field
winding via the slip ring connections, thus eliminating the torque
loading otherwise produced when trying to send charging current to the
battery.

It was an effective modification since it took only a minute to warm the
engine up, especially if we throttled up to a higher tickover speed and
then enabled the alternator since the torque loading reduces with speed
for a given current output and we'd have both cylinders working with a
productive load to both help accelerate the warm up period at a still
modest engine speed and swiftly replenish the battery of the energy just
taken by the starter motor.

We hadn't suffered such a problem with the dynamo since it needed a very
fast tickover to get its regulator to kick in to start generating any
current at all. The use of a 24v alternator to generate 12v meant it was
producing at least as much as the dynamo could do at full chat, if not
more at tickover speed alone.

Not a major problem if *both* cylinders were firing at that speed but
since it placed a torque drag loading at less than idling speed, it was a
problem I'm happy to say since it demonstrated we were getting more
efficient use out of the engine when it was being used just to produce
electricity. Having to fit a switch to overcome this cold starting issue
was a tiny price to pay in upgrading the battery charging system
efficiency. :-)

As for those GGLCW connections, I would guess GG are the slip rings, and
of the remainder one will be the 60 to 120 amp rectifier output terminal
(obvious from the sheer size of the nut and thread used), another will be
the auxiliary diode output to energise the field winding excitation
circuit and provide the voltage reference to regulate the voltage on the
main rectifier output. The leftover terminal might be a thermally
operated output indicator (I have a vague recollection of such a 5th
terminal on some alternator connection diagrams but it was a good forty
years ago since I last saw such diagrams - perhaps I should try a search
engine? :-)

I've just checked out a pdf on truck alternators and there was mention
of a connection to an AC output terminal intended to operate a relay (of
the thermal class since it works just as well with ac as with dc) or else
a tacho sensor (presumably as an alternative method to the classic
ignition light confirmation that the alternator is being driven and
producing output).

In reading that pdf, I noticed mention of variations such as a seperate
negative output terminal and a sense wire option terminal so it can all
become rather more complicated than that truck alternator I was using 40
odd years ago. If two of those terminals are both equally large heavy
duty types, that would suggest seperate positive and negative output
connections rather than the use of the casing as a common ground
connection.

[1] The truck alternator's pulley was, I think, a little larger in
diameter, maybe 4 inches or so and, of course, just a single V groove.
Nevertheless, this was going to be running some 5 times faster than the
engine, allowing it to produce useful output even at tickover, unlike the
dynamo half of the dynastart unit it was replacing.

--
Johnny B Good

Jim K wrote:
Chris Green Wrote in message:
I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired
(secondhand) mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring
diagrams for it but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not
connected in any of the wiring diagrams I have. The C connector seems
(in most cases) to be connected to switched battery +ve, i.e. it will
get 12v on it when the ignition is turned on. The L connector has me
totally confused, it's connected to the engine hours meter and thence
via an 82 ohm resistor to something that will be at 12v when things
are running normally. The regulator is connected to ground/0v by its
case. The alternator has a connection direct to battery +12v in
addition to its two G G connections.

The Hatz engine is German so the letters may mean something in German.

I'm not at home at the moment so I can't provide a picture or much
more detail.

Any information or pointers would be most welcome.

--
Chris Green
·


Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

Most definitely there is, apart from anything else the AC has to be
turned inton DC to charge the battery. Most car alternators simply
have the regulator (+ diodes for rectification) built into the
alternator but this little Hatz diesel has a separate bit of hardware
to handle rectification/regulation.

--
Chris Green
·

Johnny B Good Wrote in message:


Psst ! Its a lawn mower...


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 22/04/2018 21:48, Jim K wrote:
[snip]

Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

(If a dynamo then there is)

An alternator with a failed (or none-existent) regulator will boil a
battery dry (and probably cook the electrics) in a very short order.

Chris Bartram Wrote in message:
On 22/04/2018 21:48, Jim K wrote:
[snip]

Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

(If a dynamo then there is)

An alternator with a failed (or none-existent) regulator will boil a
battery dry (and probably cook the electrics) in a very short order.


Yersss.
I was coming from "alternators on cars usually have the regulator
built-in" which I why I said "separate regulator"...

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 23/04/18 08:53, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 22/04/2018 21:48, Jim K wrote:
[snip]

Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
Â* regulator as such?

(If a dynamo then there is)

An alternator with a failed (or none-existent) regulator will boil a
battery dry (and probably cook the electrics) in a very short order.

Since the regulator often contains the rectifier dioides, it may do
worse han that!


--
The New Left are the people they warned you about.

Chris Green wrote:

[snip boring description of problem]

I outlined the problem to someone else as well and, as very often
happens, I think that has led me to the answer:-

G G - these terminals are the alternator field coil which the
regulator drives to vary the alternator's output. The alternator
has a separate B+ output which actually charges the battery.

C - This is the switched +12v feed from the battery, it provides
power for the regulator electronics and also tells it the battery
voltage.

L - This is L for L[amp]. It would normally have a lamp between
it and the C terminal. When ignition is turned on there is 12v on
the C terminal and 0v on the L terminal so the lamp lights. When
the engine runs L goes up to 12v and the lamp goes out. On my
Hatz there is an 82 ohm resistor instead of the lamp (between L
and C) and L is also connected to the hours meter. The hours
meter is thus only running when 'the lamp is out', i.e. when the
engine is running and the alternator producing output.

W - I still don't know what this is.


I don't know why 'G' means field, translating to German doesn't help.
L for Lamp makes some sense, C for battery +ve doesn't.

--
Chris Green
·

Jim K has brought this to us :
Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

Early alternators had the diode pack and 'regulation' external to the
alternator.

In article ,
Jim K wrote:
Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

Of course there is. On many these days it is internal to the alternator.
One which delivered full output at all times would boil the battery dry.

--
*One tequila, two tequila, three tequila, floor.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Johnny B Good wrote:
Although every car alternator I've seen incorporates the regulator into
the alternator itself, that's not necessarily true of the 24v
alternators used on trucks and HGVs. I used such an alternator obtained
from a scrapyard as a replacement to the dynastart on the 2 cylinder
auxiliary petrol engine on my father's 30 foot ocean going sloop some
forty odd years ago.

First alternator I had was Lucas on a P6 Rover. The regulator for that was
external.

There is an advantage. The regulator is far more likely to fail than the
alternator itself. And an external one is easier to change. So saying,
keeping the regulator away from the heat of the alternator may give it a
longer life anyway.

--
*It's not hard to meet expenses... they're everywhere.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 23/04/18 08:53, Chris Bartram wrote:
On 22/04/2018 21:48, Jim K wrote:
[snip]

Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

(If a dynamo then there is)

An alternator with a failed (or none-existent) regulator will boil a
battery dry (and probably cook the electrics) in a very short order.

Since the regulator often contains the rectifier dioides, it may do
worse han that!

Are you sure about that? I've never seen one which does. Make and model
please.


-

--
*I don't have a solution, but I admire your problem. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/04/2018 10:02, Chris Green wrote:


W - I still don't know what this is.

Read my post then.

Bill

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Jim K has brought this to us :
Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

Early alternators had the diode pack and 'regulation' external to the
alternator.

Never seen one with an external diode pack. Would need a five wire loom to
do that, and would likely radiate a lot of interference.

--
*Ham and Eggs: Just a day's work for a chicken, but a lifetime commitment

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 08:22:08 +0100, Jim K wrote:

Johnny B Good Wrote in message:


Psst ! Its a lawn mower...

Oops! Then WTF isn't it just using a pm 3 phase with full bridge
rectifier alternator driving a switching converter instead of a
needlessly complicated and inefficiently dc excited rotor field winding
automobile styled alternator then?

Re-reading the OP, maybe it is but the W lead suggests possibly not. I'm
a bit confused as to whether the terminals are those on the regulator box
or on the alternator itself (or maybe even both?)... What was the
question again? :-)

--
Johnny B Good

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 08:53:44 +0100, Chris Bartram wrote:

On 22/04/2018 21:48, Jim K wrote:
[snip]

Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

(If a dynamo then there is)

An alternator with a failed (or none-existent) regulator will boil a
battery dry (and probably cook the electrics) in a very short order.

Depends on the failure mode. If the series pass power device used to
control the excitation current going to the field winding via the slip
rings goes short circuit or a fault elsewhere causes it to be turned
fully on, then yes, it'll boil the battery and cook the electrics. If it
fails open circuit or a fault elsewhere prevents it from passing
current, you'll get little to no charging current, depending on how much
residual magnetic flux there is in the rotor and the speed of the prime
mover (diesel engine in this case).

--
Johnny B Good

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:02:33 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Chris Green wrote:

[snip boring description of problem]

I outlined the problem to someone else as well and, as very often
happens, I think that has led me to the answer:-

G G - these terminals are the alternator field coil which the

Aha! So my initial guess was right, then! :-)

regulator drives to vary the alternator's output. The alternator
has a separate B+ output which actually charges the battery.

So no other similar heavy duty terminal for the B- output then, just
relying on the alternator frame to provide the common ground connection?


C - This is the switched +12v feed from the battery, it provides
power for the regulator electronics and also tells it the battery
voltage.

That's normally the function of the L connection in the typical truck
and motorcar usage case.


L - This is L for L[amp]. It would normally have a lamp between it
and the C terminal. When ignition is turned on there is 12v on the
C terminal and 0v on the L terminal so the lamp lights. When the
engine runs L goes up to 12v and the lamp goes out. On my Hatz

That corresponds to the auxiliary diode pack output that provides a
lower current rated duplicate of the main rectified voltage output of
the alternator to both act as the voltage feedback needed to regulate the
output voltage and to provide the energy required by the regulator to
drive whatever current is needed to excite the field winding on the rotor.

When the ignition is switched on, the ignition warning lamp provides
current which the regulator passess to ground via the slip rings and the
3 or 4 ohm field winding which saves the need to kick start the self
excitation process by revving the ******** off the engine to ultilise the
rather weak residual magnetism, if any, in the rotor core.

It's this, typically 180mA, lamp current which bootstraps the build up
of voltage to the regulator's power/voltage sense input terminal. Once
bootstrapped, the voltage on both sides of the lamp equalises and the
lamp extinguishes.

there is an 82 ohm resistor instead of the lamp (between L and C)
and L is also connected to the hours meter. The hours meter is thus
only running when 'the lamp is out', i.e. when the engine is running
and the alternator producing output.

W - I still don't know what this is.

That will almost certainly be an ac output as surmised by Tim and Bill
who mentioned frequency/tacho connection and, from my vague recollection
from 40 years ago, a reference to the use of a thermally operated relay
to sense when the alternator is turning and producing power instead of
relying on the traditional ignition warning lamp circuit. I suspect in
this case it's simply surplus to requirements and unused (BICBW).


I don't know why 'G' means field, translating to German doesn't help.
L for Lamp makes some sense, C for battery +ve doesn't.

I only surmised slip-ring field connections from the fact that there was
a pair of them and only the field connections, whose polarity is entirely
arbitrary in this case, made up a pair of anything to be found on an
alternator without a - or + subscript. :-)

BTW, just how big is this diesel powered mower that it needs what seems
to be a full size car/truck alternator? :-)

--
Johnny B Good

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 08:22:08 +0100, Jim K wrote:

Johnny B Good Wrote in message:


Psst ! Its a lawn mower...

Oops! Then WTF isn't it just using a pm 3 phase with full bridge
rectifier alternator driving a switching converter instead of a
needlessly complicated and inefficiently dc excited rotor field winding
automobile styled alternator then?

Re-reading the OP, maybe it is but the W lead suggests possibly not. I'm
a bit confused as to whether the terminals are those on the regulator box
or on the alternator itself (or maybe even both?)... What was the
question again? :-)

The letter marked terminals are on the separate, aluminium cased,
regulator.

--
Chris Green
·

Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:02:33 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Chris Green wrote:

[snip boring description of problem]

I outlined the problem to someone else as well and, as very often
happens, I think that has led me to the answer:-

G G - these terminals are the alternator field coil which the

Aha! So my initial guess was right, then! :-)

regulator drives to vary the alternator's output. The alternator
has a separate B+ output which actually charges the battery.

So no other similar heavy duty terminal for the B- output then, just
relying on the alternator frame to provide the common ground connection?

No, just a big lump of screwed together aluminium castings (not always
absolutely reliable in my experience).


C - This is the switched +12v feed from the battery, it provides
power for the regulator electronics and also tells it the battery
voltage.

That's normally the function of the L connection in the typical truck
and motorcar usage case.


L - This is L for L[amp]. It would normally have a lamp between it
and the C terminal. When ignition is turned on there is 12v on the
C terminal and 0v on the L terminal so the lamp lights. When the
engine runs L goes up to 12v and the lamp goes out. On my Hatz

That corresponds to the auxiliary diode pack output that provides a
lower current rated duplicate of the main rectified voltage output of
the alternator to both act as the voltage feedback needed to regulate the
output voltage and to provide the energy required by the regulator to
drive whatever current is needed to excite the field winding on the rotor.

When the ignition is switched on, the ignition warning lamp provides
current which the regulator passess to ground via the slip rings and the
3 or 4 ohm field winding which saves the need to kick start the self
excitation process by revving the ******** off the engine to ultilise the
rather weak residual magnetism, if any, in the rotor core.

It's this, typically 180mA, lamp current which bootstraps the build up
of voltage to the regulator's power/voltage sense input terminal. Once
bootstrapped, the voltage on both sides of the lamp equalises and the
lamp extinguishes.

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.


there is an 82 ohm resistor instead of the lamp (between L and C)
and L is also connected to the hours meter. The hours meter is thus
only running when 'the lamp is out', i.e. when the engine is running
and the alternator producing output.

W - I still don't know what this is.

That will almost certainly be an ac output as surmised by Tim and Bill
who mentioned frequency/tacho connection and, from my vague recollection
from 40 years ago, a reference to the use of a thermally operated relay
to sense when the alternator is turning and producing power instead of
relying on the traditional ignition warning lamp circuit. I suspect in
this case it's simply surplus to requirements and unused (BICBW).


I don't know why 'G' means field, translating to German doesn't help.
L for Lamp makes some sense, C for battery +ve doesn't.

I only surmised slip-ring field connections from the fact that there was
a pair of them and only the field connections, whose polarity is entirely
arbitrary in this case, made up a pair of anything to be found on an
alternator without a - or + subscript. :-)

BTW, just how big is this diesel powered mower that it needs what seems
to be a full size car/truck alternator? :-)

It's not particularly big but it is verging on commercial. The Hatz
1B50 engine is 8.5kW output (around 11 BHP). It drives a three rotor
125cm wide cutting deck but there are loads of electrical accessories.
The cutting height is electrically adjustable, there's a cruise
control (!), an electrically operated rear PTO and a power connection
for a sand spreader.

--
Chris Green
·

Chris Green Wrote in message:
Johnny B Good wrote:
On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:02:33 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Chris Green wrote:

[snip boring description of problem]

I outlined the problem to someone else as well and, as very often
happens, I think that has led me to the answer:-

G G - these terminals are the alternator field coil which the

Aha! So my initial guess was right, then! :-)

regulator drives to vary the alternator's output. The alternator
has a separate B+ output which actually charges the battery.

So no other similar heavy duty terminal for the B- output then, just
relying on the alternator frame to provide the common ground connection?

No, just a big lump of screwed together aluminium castings (not always
absolutely reliable in my experience).


C - This is the switched +12v feed from the battery, it provides
power for the regulator electronics and also tells it the battery
voltage.

That's normally the function of the L connection in the typical truck
and motorcar usage case.


L - This is L for L[amp]. It would normally have a lamp between it
and the C terminal. When ignition is turned on there is 12v on the
C terminal and 0v on the L terminal so the lamp lights. When the
engine runs L goes up to 12v and the lamp goes out. On my Hatz

That corresponds to the auxiliary diode pack output that provides a
lower current rated duplicate of the main rectified voltage output of
the alternator to both act as the voltage feedback needed to regulate the
output voltage and to provide the energy required by the regulator to
drive whatever current is needed to excite the field winding on the rotor.

When the ignition is switched on, the ignition warning lamp provides
current which the regulator passess to ground via the slip rings and the
3 or 4 ohm field winding which saves the need to kick start the self
excitation process by revving the ******** off the engine to ultilise the
rather weak residual magnetism, if any, in the rotor core.

It's this, typically 180mA, lamp current which bootstraps the build up
of voltage to the regulator's power/voltage sense input terminal. Once
bootstrapped, the voltage on both sides of the lamp equalises and the
lamp extinguishes.

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.


there is an 82 ohm resistor instead of the lamp (between L and C)
and L is also connected to the hours meter. The hours meter is thus
only running when 'the lamp is out', i.e. when the engine is running
and the alternator producing output.

W - I still don't know what this is.

That will almost certainly be an ac output as surmised by Tim and Bill
who mentioned frequency/tacho connection and, from my vague recollection
from 40 years ago, a reference to the use of a thermally operated relay
to sense when the alternator is turning and producing power instead of
relying on the traditional ignition warning lamp circuit. I suspect in
this case it's simply surplus to requirements and unused (BICBW).


I don't know why 'G' means field, translating to German doesn't help.
L for Lamp makes some sense, C for battery +ve doesn't.

I only surmised slip-ring field connections from the fact that there was
a pair of them and only the field connections, whose polarity is entirely
arbitrary in this case, made up a pair of anything to be found on an
alternator without a - or + subscript. :-)

BTW, just how big is this diesel powered mower that it needs what seems
to be a full size car/truck alternator? :-)

It's not particularly big but it is verging on commercial. The Hatz
1B50 engine is 8.5kW output (around 11 BHP). It drives a three rotor
125cm wide cutting deck but there are loads of electrical accessories.
The cutting height is electrically adjustable, there's a cruise
control (!), an electrically operated rear PTO and a power connection
for a sand spreader.

Coo, sounds much better than Huge's alleged 48incher :-)
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.




--
No Apple devices were knowingly used in the preparation of this post.

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:02:33 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

W - I still don't know what this is.

Probably tachometer....

https://www.lima-shop.de/forum/board7-lichtmaschine-allgemein/19-klemmen-anschl%C3%BCsse-bezeichnung-der-lichtmaschine-generator-und-am-regler-f%C3%BCr-bosch-valeo-hitachi-magneti-marelli-motorola-etc/
http://www.dsclub.de/forum/read.php?1,37759

The W doesn't seem to stand for anything, "Drehzahlsignal" meaning rotation
count signal is completely W-free. But then a couple of manufactureers use "61"
for the "L"-amp connection...

Thomas Prufer

Dave Plowman (News) formulated on Monday :
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Jim K has brought this to us :
Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

Early alternators had the diode pack and 'regulation' external to the
alternator.

Never seen one with an external diode pack. Would need a five wire loom to
do that, and would likely radiate a lot of interference.

My 1997 Honda VFR 750 had an alternator, external diode pack and
regulator.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 09:42:12 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

Johnny B Good wrote:

====snip====

BTW, just how big is this diesel powered mower that it needs what
seems
to be a full size car/truck alternator? :-)

It's not particularly big but it is verging on commercial. The Hatz
1B50 engine is 8.5kW output (around 11 BHP). It drives a three rotor
125cm wide cutting deck but there are loads of electrical accessories.
The cutting height is electrically adjustable, there's a cruise control
(!), an electrically operated rear PTO and a power connection for a sand
spreader.

I understand the need for the more substantial car/truck styled
alternator now. :-)

Thanks for that insight.

--
Johnny B Good

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 14:54:53 +0200, Thomas Prufer wrote:

On Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:02:33 +0100, Chris Green wrote:

W - I still don't know what this is.

Probably tachometer....

https://www.lima-shop.de/forum/board...-allgemein/19-
klemmen-anschl%C3%BCsse-bezeichnung-der-lichtmaschine-generator-und-am-
regler-f%C3%BCr-bosch-valeo-hitachi-magneti-marelli-motorola-etc/
http://www.dsclub.de/forum/read.php?1,37759

The W doesn't seem to stand for anything, "Drehzahlsignal" meaning
rotation count signal is completely W-free. But then a couple of
manufactureers use "61"
for the "L"-amp connection...

They're probably entirely arbitrary designations so I wouldn't bother
pursuing any further the idea that German translations of F for field and
G+ for Generator output terminal and the like will answer your question
any better than what's been arrived at in this thread by the usual
'detective/educated guesswork'. :-)

--
Johnny B Good

In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) formulated on Monday :
In article ,
Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Jim K has brought this to us :
Shurely if it is an alternator there's no need for a separate
regulator as such?

Early alternators had the diode pack and 'regulation' external to the
alternator.

Never seen one with an external diode pack. Would need a five wire
loom to do that, and would likely radiate a lot of interference.

My 1997 Honda VFR 750 had an alternator, external diode pack and
regulator.

Only time I've seen this is on alternators built into the flywheel, etc,
where space would be at a premium.
Most rely on the alternator cooling fan to keep them cool too.

--
*I got a sweater for Christmas. I really wanted a screamer or a moaner*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

What's the voltage of a '12V' lead acid battery?

--

Roger Hayter

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

What's the voltage of a '12V' lead acid battery?

Usually taken as 13.8 but it obviously varys a bit.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

My mental arithemtic isn't what it was! :-)

--
Chris Green
·

Roger Hayter wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

What's the voltage of a '12V' lead acid battery?

Depends if it's on charge or not.

--
Chris Green
·

Rod Speed wrote:

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

What's the voltage of a '12V' lead acid battery?

Usually taken as 13.8 but it obviously varys a bit.

That was my point: 13.8/82=0.168

--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
Chris Green wrote:
Roger Hayter wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

What's the voltage of a '12V' lead acid battery?

Depends if it's on charge or not.

I tend to calculate car things based on 13.8v.

--
*Can atheists get insurance for acts of God? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 24 Apr 2018 14:20:55 GMT, Johnny B Good
wrote:

German translations of F for field and
G+ for Generator output terminal and the like will answer your question
any better than what's been arrived at in this thread by the usual
'detective/educated guesswork'. :-)

Anway these translations

Field -- "Feld"
generator -- "Generator"

are unlikely to help:-)

Thomas Prufer

Chris Green wrote:
I am trying to work out how the wiring on a newly acquired
(secondhand) mower works. I have what are supposed to be the wiring
diagrams for it but none matches exactly.

The current (ha, ha) conundrum is the meaning of the letters on the
regulator. It's a Hatz diesel engine and has an alternator with a
separate external regulator. I have the Hatz manual but that is no
more forthcoming than the mower wiring diagram.

The regulator has terminals marked with the letters G G L C W. I can
work out that the G G terminals are for the output from the alternator
but the others have me rather stumped. The W terminal is not
connected in any of the wiring diagrams I have. The C connector seems
(in most cases) to be connected to switched battery +ve, i.e. it will
get 12v on it when the ignition is turned on. The L connector has me
totally confused, it's connected to the engine hours meter and thence
via an 82 ohm resistor to something that will be at 12v when things
are running normally. The regulator is connected to ground/0v by its
case. The alternator has a connection direct to battery +12v in
addition to its two G G connections.

The Hatz engine is German so the letters may mean something in German.

I'm not at home at the moment so I can't provide a picture or much
more detail.

Any information or pointers would be most welcome.


Have you seen the manual here? Although I guess you probably have a
paper copy.

http://vi.dzima.com/wp-content/uploa...hop_manual.pdf

In the circuit diagram for current and voltage measurements, the W
terminal is labelled '22'. The designation for 22 is "Terminal W for
engine-speed measurement". It looks like L is supposed to go to a
display panel.

On Wed, 25 Apr 2018 09:54:28 +0100, Roger Hayter wrote:

Rod Speed wrote:

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

What's the voltage of a '12V' lead acid battery?

Usually taken as 13.8 but it obviously varys a bit.

That was my point: 13.8/82=0.168

SLAs tend to have an off charge resting voltage around the 12.75 to
12.85 mark which can last a whole 12 months before reaching a low of
12.70 whilst SLI batteries typically show 12.7 to 12.6 for months
afterwards on older vehicles, maybe less than a month for some newer
models with a relatively high parked up drain from their electronics.
It's never as low as 12 volts 'on-the-nose' unless they're close to
discharged.

In any case, I was assuming the typical 2.2W 12v incandescent panel
lamp's rated current on 12v which worked out to 180mA and hardly varies
with voltage anyway due to the pronounced positive temperature
coefficient of resistance of incandescent lamp filaments even at the much
lower operating temperatures that suffice for the functional requirement
of a panel lamp (no need to be *so* fekin' bright - a long reliable life
is what's needed here - petrol pump filament displays even had life
ratings from 50 to 100 thousand hours!).

By the time the battery voltage hits the 13.8v mark (and rising), it
becomes somewhat academic since the warning light has long since
extinguished with the regulator now fully in control of the excitation
current, confirming the normal engine running condition that the
alternator has kicked in and is charging the battery and supplying power
to the electrical loads.

As for when a red LED indicator lamp is used for this function, I
couldn't say whether the 10 or 20 mA LED lamp current would suffice on
its own to bootstrap the alternator's field current without the addition
of another 50 to 100mA's worth of current[1] with a 5W[2] 120 to 240 ohm
resistor in parallel with the LED and its own current limiting resistor
(circa 1000 to 2200 ohms).

It might well be that any current greater than 10mA would have sufficed
to bootstrap the regulator and a 2.2W panel lamp current was simply a
convenient way to supply this initial current.

[1] I'm just guessing that 60 to 120mA would suffice to cover the most
pessimistic worst case boot strap requirement here.

[2] I'm also guessing that reliability would be the key requirement in
specifying a resistor wattage rating with plenty of margin to eliminate
any risk of 'burn out'.

--
Johnny B Good

Roger Hayter wrote:
Rod Speed wrote:

"Roger Hayter" wrote in message
...
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 24/04/18 09:42, Chris Green wrote:

OK, yes, I agree. 12 volts across 82 ohms is around 160mA.
No, its around 146mA.

What's the voltage of a '12V' lead acid battery?

Usually taken as 13.8 but it obviously varys a bit.

That was my point: 13.8/82=0.168

That's the 'on charge' voltage. A car battery which is not being
charged won't provide 13.8 volts, we're just used to car batteries
with alternators which mean that whenever the engine is running it's
being charged.

Take a look at:-

http://scubaengineer.com/documents/l...ing_graphs.pdf

Even a fully charged battery will only show just over 12.5 volts when not
being charged.

--
Chris Green
·