Maybe doesnt sit properly in this newsgroup but it is DIY.
Does anyone on here have experience of accounts with reference to
finalising a balance sheet for a Will, specifically to do with expenses.

On 23/03/2018 09:10, ss wrote:
Maybe doesnt sit properly in this newsgroup but it is DIY.
Does anyone on here have experience of accounts with reference to
finalising a balance sheet for a Will, specifically to do with expenses.

I've done two simple uncontentious ones, and I used Excel. I was joint
executor with my brother's solicitor for a slightly more complicated one
which involved trusts for minors. In that case, the solicitor did the
main accounts although he was happy for me to do all the leg-work, and
once the trusts were set up he stood down to be replaced by another
family member to minimise the costs to the estate.

But the only expenses that I "claimed" were things which I actually paid
out, like death certificates and house insurance. You need to be more
explicit and would probably be better posting in uk.legal.moderated.

On 23/03/2018 09:23, newshound wrote:
On 23/03/2018 09:10, ss wrote:
Maybe doesnt sit properly in this newsgroup but it is DIY.
Does anyone on here have experience of accounts with reference to
finalising a balance sheet for a Will, specifically to do with expenses.

I've done two simple uncontentious ones, and I used Excel. I was joint
executor with my brother's solicitor for a slightly more complicated one
which involved trusts for minors. In that case, the solicitor did the
main accounts although he was happy for me to do all the leg-work, and
once the trusts were set up he stood down to be replaced by another
family member to minimise the costs to the estate.

But the only expenses that I "claimed" were things which I actually paid
out, like death certificates and house insurance. You need to be more
explicit and would probably be better posting in uk.legal.moderated.

The Will is basic with no issues and I have done a balance sheet on
excel and I have detailed all funeral expenses. I am just unsure how I
get my personal expenses logged on it.


Example.
value of estate £19000
Less funeral costs etc of £4000
Balance of estate £15000
= (x 3 beneficeries) £5000 each

One of the beneficeries is also executor who has £120 of expenses.

My thinking is (if correct) if I include the £120 as part of the funeral
costs/expenses then Ithe executor is in effect paying a third of their
own expenses when the net balance is split 3 ways.

Any thoughts on where or how this expense is deducted from the balance
sheet.

ss brought next idea :
Maybe doesnt sit properly in this newsgroup but it is DIY.
Does anyone on here have experience of accounts with reference to finalising
a balance sheet for a Will, specifically to do with expenses.

Yes, I was an Executor. Keep a careful account of everything which has
to be paid out, every reasonable expense, all of the outstanding bills
which have to be paid out - then finally tot up and itemise every penny
which which comes in. List both sets of items on a sheet, with a final
valuation at the end.

Keep a copy of each bill and each receipt for expenses.

If it is not particularly complicated, you could do the above manually
in a simple Word document, using a calculator.

Best if you can, to have someone completely independent to double check
everything tallies and your calculation, to avoid any later arguments.
Wills often cause family arguments and major disputes, so get it right.

On 23/03/2018 10:42, ss wrote:
On 23/03/2018 09:23, newshound wrote:
On 23/03/2018 09:10, ss wrote:
Maybe doesnt sit properly in this newsgroup but it is DIY.
Does anyone on here have experience of accounts with reference to
finalising a balance sheet for a Will, specifically to do with expenses.

I've done two simple uncontentious ones, and I used Excel. I was joint
executor with my brother's solicitor for a slightly more complicated
one which involved trusts for minors. In that case, the solicitor did
the main accounts although he was happy for me to do all the leg-work,
and once the trusts were set up he stood down to be replaced by
another family member to minimise the costs to the estate.

But the only expenses that I "claimed" were things which I actually
paid out, like death certificates and house insurance. You need to be
more explicit and would probably be better posting in uk.legal.moderated.

The Will is basic with no issues and I have done a balance sheet on
excel and I have detailed all funeral expenses. I am just unsure how I
get my personal expenses logged on it.


Example.
value of estate £19000
Less funeral costs etc of £4000
Balance of estate £15000
= (x 3 beneficeries) £5000 each

One of the beneficeries is also executor who has £120 of expenses.

The expenses will come out of the estate before the remainder of it can
be distributed as legacies.

My thinking is (if correct) if I include the £120 as part of the funeral
costs/expenses then Ithe executor is in effect paying a third of their
own expenses when the net balance is split 3 ways.

Any thoughts on where or how this expense is deducted from the balance
sheet.

If the expenses are owed to someone who is also a recipient of a legacy,
then yes in effect the process of paying the expenses will reduce the
residual value of the estate, and reduce what is available for
distribution to the heirs. However it does mean that the impact affects
all the heirs and not just one.

But given the estate has a fixed value, any payments from it will have
knock on effects elsewhere.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 23 Mar 2018 10:42:15 +0000, ss wrote:

On 23/03/2018 09:23, newshound wrote:
On 23/03/2018 09:10, ss wrote:
Maybe doesnt sit properly in this newsgroup but it is DIY.
Does anyone on here have experience of accounts with reference to
finalising a balance sheet for a Will, specifically to do with expenses.

I've done two simple uncontentious ones, and I used Excel. I was joint
executor with my brother's solicitor for a slightly more complicated one
which involved trusts for minors. In that case, the solicitor did the
main accounts although he was happy for me to do all the leg-work, and
once the trusts were set up he stood down to be replaced by another
family member to minimise the costs to the estate.

But the only expenses that I "claimed" were things which I actually paid
out, like death certificates and house insurance. You need to be more
explicit and would probably be better posting in uk.legal.moderated.

The Will is basic with no issues and I have done a balance sheet on
excel and I have detailed all funeral expenses. I am just unsure how I
get my personal expenses logged on it.


Example.
value of estate £19000
Less funeral costs etc of £4000
Balance of estate £15000
= (x 3 beneficeries) £5000 each

One of the beneficeries is also executor who has £120 of expenses.

My thinking is (if correct) if I include the £120 as part of the funeral
costs/expenses then Ithe executor is in effect paying a third of their
own expenses when the net balance is split 3 ways.

Any thoughts on where or how this expense is deducted from the balance
sheet.


value of estate £19000 less expenses, including executor expenses.



--
AnthonyL

On 23/03/2018 10:42, ss wrote:

My thinking is (if correct) if I include the £120 as part of the funeral
costs/expenses then Ithe executor is in effect paying a third of their
own expenses when the net balance is split 3 ways.

That's right. After all, if you were the only beneficiary, you'd pay
all your own expenses, if there were two, half each and so on.

If you paid a solicitor to do it, the split would be even too, except of
course they'd charge for their time as well as expenses.


Cheers
--
Clive

On 23/03/2018 13:16, Clive Arthur wrote:
If you paid a solicitor to do it, the split would be even too, except of
course they'd charge for their time as well as expenses.

And it would be considerably higher than what I would save.

On 23/03/2018 10:42, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Keep a careful account of everything which has to be paid out, every
reasonable expense, all of the outstanding bills which have to be paid
out - then finally tot up and itemise every penny which which comes in.
List both sets of items on a sheet, with a final valuation at the end.

Keep a copy of each bill and each receipt for expenses.

If it is not particularly complicated, you could do the above manually
in a simple Word document, using a calculator.

Best if you can, to have someone completely independent to double check
everything tallies and your calculation, to avoid any later arguments.
Wills often cause family arguments and major disputes, so get it right.

Yes thats all been done and all mileage timed dated and costed. The
balance sheet has been done on excel, its a simple estate but just not
sure where I was to put the personal expenses.

Already had WW3 over the damn thing which was expected but everything
tidy this end, and its only a small financial gain!

ss wrote :
Yes thats all been done and all mileage timed dated and costed. The balance
sheet has been done on excel, its a simple estate but just not sure where I
was to put the personal expenses.

Already had WW3 over the damn thing which was expected but everything tidy
this end, and its only a small financial gain!

In my case I had been named as one of three executors, the other two
being solicitors, with three main beneficiaries, me one of the three.
The legal fees could have taken great lumps out of the what had been
left.

So I got everyone to agree to asking the solicitors to renounce their
involvement (and fat fee). The law societies recommendation had just
been changed to - unless there was a very good reason for them to
retain their involvement (other than the fat fee), when asked they must
renounce and they did.

I then spent 12 months settling everything, gaining Probate, paying off
the bills etc. it was fairly straight forward and was ready to be
settled after 5 months, that is until the DWP became involved,
investigating and leaking their cut. That held up paying out for a
further 7 months. The DWP keep a close eye on deaths and on Probate
values submitted, so it is unsafe to pay anything out until around a
couple of months after Probate is granted, on chance that the DWP try
to claw money back.

I simply agreed a flat fee to be paid to me, for all the time and
effort involved in doing the work, of a donation of £500 by the other
two benefactors. I could have allowed the solicitors to handle it and
they would have been entitled to up to 25% of the value of the estate,
which would have wiped out all or most of the cash assets and the two
got nothing. So for the grand sum of £1000, they got a bargain.

I was left the entire property, the other two the financial assets.

The extra 7 months delay, caused the cash benefactors to blame me for
the delays and it got to the point of them threatening physical
violence against me in their demands. At one stage of the proceedings,
legal enquiries had been made to see if they might be able to dispute
the Will and claim the property as well as the cash - judging by what
one of the two had let slip in a ranting phone call.

On 23/03/2018 14:50, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
The law societies recommendation had just
been changed to - unless there was a very good reason for them to retain
their involvement (other than the fat fee), when asked they must
renounce and they did.

I wondered how you pulled that stunt off. Thanks for explaining.

Harry Bloomfield grunted in
news
I simply agreed a flat fee to be paid to me, for all the time and
effort involved in doing the work, of a donation of £500 by the other
two benefactors. I could have allowed the solicitors to handle it and
they would have been entitled to up to 25% of the value of the estate,
which would have wiped out all or most of the cash assets and the two
got nothing. So for the grand sum of £1000, they got a bargain.

Seems a very reasonable way forward to me and I don't doubt the other
beneficiaries agree - that said, as a non-professional executor you aren't
actually allowed to charge expenses for your time in doing the job (which I
think is what you're saying happened). If the others had got stroppy they
could have demanded a full breakdown of the £1000, and declined to cover
anything not a genuine out-of-pocket expense.

David

On 23/03/2018 20:02, Lobster wrote:
that said, as a non-professional executor you aren't
actually allowed to charge expenses for your time in doing the job

I believe this is ok providing it is agreed and included in the Will.
We didnt have this but will claim mileage/postage etc.
In some respects we are £s in as one beneficiary had POA and had already
taken steps to access the deceaseds funds, the deceased who was living
at the time didnt know about this but we managed to block it. Then when
he passed away that same beneficiary gloatingly told all she would be at
the bank the next day within 3 minutes of her dad dying........only to
be told there was a new Will and said beneficiary was not the executor!
It was a game of cat & mouse and we kept the ace cards up our sleeve
until the last minute.
Said beneficiary blew a gasket and was chucking stuff across her dads
dead body (died 3 minutes previously) it was unreal wish it had been
videoed, I would have put it on utube.

On 23/03/2018 20:02, Lobster wrote:
Harry Bloomfield grunted in
news
I simply agreed a flat fee to be paid to me, for all the time and
effort involved in doing the work, of a donation of £500 by the other
two benefactors. I could have allowed the solicitors to handle it and
they would have been entitled to up to 25% of the value of the estate,
which would have wiped out all or most of the cash assets and the two
got nothing. So for the grand sum of £1000, they got a bargain.

Seems a very reasonable way forward to me and I don't doubt the other
beneficiaries agree - that said, as a non-professional executor you aren't
actually allowed to charge expenses for your time in doing the job (which I
think is what you're saying happened). If the others had got stroppy they
could have demanded a full breakdown of the £1000, and declined to cover
anything not a genuine out-of-pocket expense.

David

That was also my understanding that non-professionals can't claim "time"
expenses. ISTR hearing of one will where the executor was not a
significant beneficiary, except that there was a lump sum in the will as
an appropriate compensation for anticipated time spent.

Certainly in my case I would have felt cheeky claiming things like phone
calls, postage, mileage and parking (even though I don't think the other
beneficiaries would have complained).

On 23/03/2018 22:34, newshound wrote:
That was also my understanding that non-professionals can't claim "time"
expenses. ISTR hearing of one will where the executor was not a
significant beneficiary, except that there was a lump sum in the will as
an appropriate compensation for anticipated time spent.

Quote.......

..........."Even though Executors are usually responsible for a
substantial amount of work during the administering of the Estate, they
are not entitled to be paid for it unless it allows for it in the Will.
Professionals such as lawyers, banks and accountants do charge fees for
their work if they are appointed as Executors."...........

In article , ss wrote:
On 23/03/2018 22:34, newshound wrote:
That was also my understanding that non-professionals can't claim
"time" expenses. ISTR hearing of one will where the executor was not a
significant beneficiary, except that there was a lump sum in the will
as an appropriate compensation for anticipated time spent.

Quote.......

.........."Even though Executors are usually responsible for a
substantial amount of work during the administering of the Estate, they
are not entitled to be paid for it unless it allows for it in the Will.
Professionals such as lawyers, banks and accountants do charge fees for
their work if they are appointed as Executors."...........

However, this wouldn't preclude "amateur" executors being re-imbursed for
necessary expenses.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

Lobster explained :
Seems a very reasonable way forward to me and I don't doubt the other
beneficiaries agree - that said, as a non-professional executor you aren't
actually allowed to charge expenses for your time in doing the job (which I
think is what you're saying happened). If the others had got stroppy they
could have demanded a full breakdown of the £1000, and declined to cover
anything not a genuine out-of-pocket expense.

They refused to provide any help at all, just greed and demands to get
paid. I invited them round several times to review the progress and the
ever increasing stack of paperwork it involved, plus the causes of the
delay in paying out - again they were not interested. They did become
interested, when I made it clear that the solicitors could claim all of
their cash, as fees - which was how I got them to agree to my dealing
with things alone.

Then came accusations that I was mis-handling it all, stealing the
cash, they would have been better not agreeing to the solicitors
renouncing their involvement. I wasn't of course, it was entirely above
board, fully documented and witnessed by an independent person, but it
didn't stop the threats and accusations they were making.

In the end, because of the mass of extra stress they had caused me, on
top of the stress of dealing with everything, I invited them to make a
donation to me - in view of the solicitors fees I had avoided. The fees
would have all come out of their cash anyway, I neither gained nor lost
in doing the work myself.

It happens that ss formulated :
I believe this is ok providing it is agreed and included in the Will.
We didnt have this but will claim mileage/postage etc.

I didn't make a separate charge for any of those things. I expended
many hours of my time on it, lots of trips to sort various things out,
lots of phone calls, lots letters and a great deal of time spent
researching how to sort things out.