For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat.

What is going on?

Rednadnerb Wrote in message:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat.

What is going on?


How have you tested these two particular sockets?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
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Yes, I have a radio which I plug in to test.
I've had one socket off the wall and everything is connected.

I have one of those socket testers, I didn't use it today because I am sure that I have used it on these sockets in the past but I will try it again.

One thing I omitted to mention. I have split the ring so it is now radial.
The halogen heater doesn't work on the first two sockets, on the third it worked once but since trips the RCD as it does on all the sockets downstream.

I am coming to the conclusion that the halogen heater has some intelligence built in. If things are not 100% it does not work.

On Monday, 12 March 2018 21:48:32 UTC, Rednadnerb wrote:
I am coming to the conclusion that the halogen heater has some intelligence built in. If things are not 100% it does not work.

more than unlikely.
Start by testing every socket is wired correctly. Plugging heaters & radios in does not do that!


NT

Very doubtful indeed.

Does it have a linear, perhaps thyristor control of power, ie like a light
dimmer but for a heater? This circuit might not like things not being
completely symetrical or having varying voltage with load.
Brian

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"Rednadnerb" wrote in message
...
I am coming to the conclusion that the halogen heater has some intelligence
built in. If things are not 100% it does not work.

On 12/03/2018 21:42, Rednadnerb wrote:
Yes, I have a radio which I plug in to test.
I've had one socket off the wall and everything is connected.

I have one of those socket testers, I didn't use it today because I am sure that I have used it on these sockets in the past but I will try it again.


Do you have a multimeter, even a very cheap one?




One thing I omitted to mention. I have split the ring so it is now radial.
The halogen heater doesn't work on the first two sockets, on the third it worked once but since trips the RCD as it does on all the sockets downstream.

Yes I have a multimeter. How could I use that?

On 13/03/2018 07:32, Rednadnerb wrote:
Yes I have a multimeter. How could I use that?


voltage between:
earth and live
earth and neutral
live and neutral

for a start

Do you have mice? :-) If a socket does not run a high current device it
quite obviously has resistance in series with the thing plugged in and the
mains. If it runs a low current device this would be expected if this was
the case. I'd be tempted to change out the dodgy connections or swap them
with another later on to see if the fault moves about. Unfortunately
tripping various forms of detectors is kind of hard to work out if its right
on the cusp of failing most of the time.
Brian

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"Rednadnerb" wrote in message
...
Yes, I have a radio which I plug in to test.
I've had one socket off the wall and everything is connected.

I have one of those socket testers, I didn't use it today because I am
sure that I have used it on these sockets in the past but I will try it
again.

One thing I omitted to mention. I have split the ring so it is now radial.
The halogen heater doesn't work on the first two sockets, on the third it
worked once but since trips the RCD as it does on all the sockets
downstream.

It's mice.

By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor.

Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for.

On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 17:48:30 UTC, Rednadnerb wrote:

It's mice.

By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor.

Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for.

If an RCD trips it's because stuff is shorting out. That's a fire risk.


NT

On 14/03/18 17:48, Rednadnerb wrote:
It's mice.

By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor.

Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for.

Id guess an earth neutral short


--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

In article ,
Rednadnerb wrote:
It's mice.

That a guess?

By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two
lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor.

Have you disconnected both sockets at either end of the suspect wiring so
it is totally isolated, then done tests on it?

Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip
is worth taking up the floor boards for.

All to easy to think you've found the fault when you can't actually see it.

--
*The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/03/2018 08:23, Brian Gaff wrote:

Do you have mice? :-) If a socket does not run a high current device it
quite obviously has resistance in series with the thing plugged in and the
mains. If it runs a low current device this would be expected if this was
the case. I'd be tempted to change out the dodgy connections or swap them
with another later on to see if the fault moves about. Unfortunately

It doesn't sound like mice if the failure mode varies with the position
of the load. More like the sockets where it refuses to work are lacking
a good full current live supply (which could be due to mice or more
likely loose wires somewhere).

Fried mouse or more yucky slug tends to be a permanent ELCB fault.

However if plugging it into any socket brings down the RCD the first
thing to test is that there is no live to earth or neutral to earth
fault on the electric heater itself. If it is the action of plugging in
the heater load then the chances are there is a hot spot on the house
wiring and after a short while at moderate power it gets warm enough to
leak current and trip. Eventually it will fail disastrously.

I prefer a small table lamp for this sort of quick testing.

I suspect mouse activity might produce similar behaviour with a ring
that only works on some sockets that are nearest to the distribution
board or more likely where a part of the ring has to be disconnected
entirely if you want to power it up at all. Wires with nibbled or
otherwise compromised insulation is a bad thing.

The first thing to check after that with the mains isolated is that
there is nothing obviously wrong with wiring behind each of the sockets.
Connections can work loose, get hot and oxidise - any that have been hot
will be pink or black possibly with molten insulation or charring.

The OP might be well advised to get an electrician in to fault find.

tripping various forms of detectors is kind of hard to work out if its right
on the cusp of failing most of the time.
Brian

It shouldn't really be that marginal unless there is another fault.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

Yes I think I'd be in there and looking for carbonised socket parts myself.
Brian

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"Jim K" wrote in message
o.uk...
Rednadnerb Wrote in message:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random,
never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the
faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a
process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any
of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into
either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but
the heater does not heat.

What is going on?


How have you tested these two particular sockets?
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat.

What is going on?

How do you know there is power there? Do those sockets work with other
appliances? If so, what type?

I keep these in my mobile toolboxes:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...lu g&_sacat=0

which is a cheap, quick, and dirty socket tester that shows all the
possible connection faults (but of course not the clever stuff that a
proper electrician would test).

On 12/03/2018 19:57, newshound wrote:
On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random,
never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on
the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by
a process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to
any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it
into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power
there but the heater does not heat.

What is going on?

How do you know there is power there? Do those sockets work with other
appliances? If so, what type?

I keep these in my mobile toolboxes:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...lu g&_sacat=0


which is a cheap, quick, and dirty socket tester that shows all the
possible connection faults (but of course not the clever stuff that a
proper electrician would test).

Actually they are quite a handy tool to have. It will not show a NE
reversal but an RCD powering the socket will!

I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main
advantage for me is that it bleeps. Brilliant for identifying a circuit
on an unlabelled CU without having to keep running and looking at the
display.
--
Adam

On 12/03/2018 20:27, ARW wrote:
On 12/03/2018 19:57, newshound wrote:
On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random,
never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on
the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and
by a process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to
any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it
into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power
there but the heater does not heat.

What is going on?

How do you know there is power there? Do those sockets work with other
appliances? If so, what type?

I keep these in my mobile toolboxes:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...lu g&_sacat=0


which is a cheap, quick, and dirty socket tester that shows all the
possible connection faults (but of course not the clever stuff that a
proper electrician would test).

Actually they are quite a handy tool to have. It will not show a NE
reversal but an RCD powering the socket will!

I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main
advantage for me is that it bleeps. Brilliant for identifying a circuit
on an unlabelled CU without having to keep running and looking at the
display.

Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a
screwdriver to check that!

newshound wrote:

ARW wrote:

I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main
advantage for me is that it bleeps.

Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a
screwdriver to check that!

I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a
capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop,
and a basic RCD functionality check.

On 13/03/2018 08:57, Andy Burns wrote:
newshound wrote:

ARW wrote:

I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main
advantage for me is that it bleeps.

Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a
screwdriver to check that!

I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a
capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop,
and a basic RCD functionality check.

Clever. If I was starting over, I'd be tempted, but mine probably only
comes out once a year now.

newshound wrote:

ARW wrote:

I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main
advantage for me is that it bleeps.

Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a
screwdriver to check that!

I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a
capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop,
and a basic RCD functionality check.

Fluke have recalled their range of this type of tester.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOYt-0WZxg&t=597s
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On 13/03/2018 08:57, Andy Burns wrote:
newshound wrote:

ARW wrote:

I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main
advantage for me is that it bleeps.

Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a
screwdriver to check that!

I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a
capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop,
and a basic RCD functionality check.


I cannot find any reference that it can do a NE reversal check.

--
Adam

On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random,
never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on
the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and
by a process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to
any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it
into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power
there but the heater does not heat.

What is going on?

Perhaps these two don't have the earth wire fitted? Best have a look.

Or they're on another circuit?

Does anything else run in those sockets?
Brian

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This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
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Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Rednadnerb" wrote in message
...
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random,
never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the
faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a
process of trail and error find the problem area.

My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any
of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into
either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but
the heater does not heat.

What is going on?