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What is happening with these electrics?
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring.
But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area. My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat. What is going on? |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring. But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area. My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat. What is going on? How do you know there is power there? Do those sockets work with other appliances? If so, what type? I keep these in my mobile toolboxes: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...lu g&_sacat=0 which is a cheap, quick, and dirty socket tester that shows all the possible connection faults (but of course not the clever stuff that a proper electrician would test). |
What is happening with these electrics?
Rednadnerb Wrote in message:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring. But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area. My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat. What is going on? How have you tested these two particular sockets? -- Jim K ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote:
For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring. But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area. My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat. What is going on? Perhaps these two don't have the earth wire fitted? Best have a look. Or they're on another circuit? |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 12/03/2018 19:57, newshound wrote:
On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote: For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring. But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area. My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat. What is going on? How do you know there is power there? Do those sockets work with other appliances? If so, what type? I keep these in my mobile toolboxes: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...lu g&_sacat=0 which is a cheap, quick, and dirty socket tester that shows all the possible connection faults (but of course not the clever stuff that a proper electrician would test). Actually they are quite a handy tool to have. It will not show a NE reversal but an RCD powering the socket will! I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main advantage for me is that it bleeps. Brilliant for identifying a circuit on an unlabelled CU without having to keep running and looking at the display. -- Adam |
What is happening with these electrics?
Yes, I have a radio which I plug in to test.
I've had one socket off the wall and everything is connected. I have one of those socket testers, I didn't use it today because I am sure that I have used it on these sockets in the past but I will try it again. One thing I omitted to mention. I have split the ring so it is now radial. The halogen heater doesn't work on the first two sockets, on the third it worked once but since trips the RCD as it does on all the sockets downstream. |
What is happening with these electrics?
I am coming to the conclusion that the halogen heater has some intelligence built in. If things are not 100% it does not work.
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What is happening with these electrics?
On Monday, 12 March 2018 21:48:32 UTC, Rednadnerb wrote:
I am coming to the conclusion that the halogen heater has some intelligence built in. If things are not 100% it does not work. more than unlikely. Start by testing every socket is wired correctly. Plugging heaters & radios in does not do that! NT |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 12/03/2018 21:42, Rednadnerb wrote:
Yes, I have a radio which I plug in to test. I've had one socket off the wall and everything is connected. I have one of those socket testers, I didn't use it today because I am sure that I have used it on these sockets in the past but I will try it again. Do you have a multimeter, even a very cheap one? One thing I omitted to mention. I have split the ring so it is now radial. The halogen heater doesn't work on the first two sockets, on the third it worked once but since trips the RCD as it does on all the sockets downstream. |
What is happening with these electrics?
Yes I have a multimeter. How could I use that?
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What is happening with these electrics?
Does anything else run in those sockets?
Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Rednadnerb" wrote in message ... For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring. But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area. My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat. What is going on? |
What is happening with these electrics?
Do you have mice? :-) If a socket does not run a high current device it
quite obviously has resistance in series with the thing plugged in and the mains. If it runs a low current device this would be expected if this was the case. I'd be tempted to change out the dodgy connections or swap them with another later on to see if the fault moves about. Unfortunately tripping various forms of detectors is kind of hard to work out if its right on the cusp of failing most of the time. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Rednadnerb" wrote in message ... Yes, I have a radio which I plug in to test. I've had one socket off the wall and everything is connected. I have one of those socket testers, I didn't use it today because I am sure that I have used it on these sockets in the past but I will try it again. One thing I omitted to mention. I have split the ring so it is now radial. The halogen heater doesn't work on the first two sockets, on the third it worked once but since trips the RCD as it does on all the sockets downstream. |
What is happening with these electrics?
Very doubtful indeed.
Does it have a linear, perhaps thyristor control of power, ie like a light dimmer but for a heater? This circuit might not like things not being completely symetrical or having varying voltage with load. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Rednadnerb" wrote in message ... I am coming to the conclusion that the halogen heater has some intelligence built in. If things are not 100% it does not work. |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 12/03/2018 20:27, ARW wrote:
On 12/03/2018 19:57, newshound wrote: On 12/03/2018 19:37, Rednadnerb wrote: For years I have had a problem with the electrics tripping at random, never been able to pin it down to a device or segment of the ring. But now I have a halogen heater that is guaranteed to trip the RCD on the faulty ring, so I can use this to test segments of the ring and by a process of trail and error find the problem area. My question is: The halogen heater trips the RCD when I plug it in to any of wall sockets except the two closest to the RCD. When I plug it into either of these two sockets it doesn't come on. There is power there but the heater does not heat. What is going on? How do you know there is power there? Do those sockets work with other appliances? If so, what type? I keep these in my mobile toolboxes: https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_f...lu g&_sacat=0 which is a cheap, quick, and dirty socket tester that shows all the possible connection faults (but of course not the clever stuff that a proper electrician would test). Actually they are quite a handy tool to have. It will not show a NE reversal but an RCD powering the socket will! I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main advantage for me is that it bleeps. Brilliant for identifying a circuit on an unlabelled CU without having to keep running and looking at the display. Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a screwdriver to check that! |
What is happening with these electrics?
newshound wrote:
ARW wrote: I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main advantage for me is that it bleeps. Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a screwdriver to check that! I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop, and a basic RCD functionality check. |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 13/03/2018 07:32, Rednadnerb wrote:
Yes I have a multimeter. How could I use that? voltage between: earth and live earth and neutral live and neutral for a start |
What is happening with these electrics?
In article ,
GB wrote: On 13/03/2018 07:32, Rednadnerb wrote: Yes I have a multimeter. How could I use that? voltage between: earth and live earth and neutral live and neutral for a start And do that at every socket on the circuit. Which should show up where the fault(s) are. By noting the results on one which works properly. -- *A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What is happening with these electrics?
On Tuesday, 13 March 2018 09:41:06 UTC, GB wrote:
On 13/03/2018 07:32, Rednadnerb wrote: Yes I have a multimeter. How could I use that? voltage between: earth and live earth and neutral live and neutral for a start Yup, thats the first thing to do, at every socket. Then there are other checks to do. You should of course see earth and live 240v earth and neutral 0v live and neutral 240v NT |
What is happening with these electrics?
In article ,
wrote: On Tuesday, 13 March 2018 09:41:06 UTC, GB wrote: On 13/03/2018 07:32, Rednadnerb wrote: Yes I have a multimeter. How could I use that? voltage between: earth and live earth and neutral live and neutral for a start Yup, thats the first thing to do, at every socket. Then there are other checks to do. You should of course see earth and live 240v earth and neutral 0v live and neutral 240v Depends on your type of earthing if you'll see zero volts between neutral and earth. -- *If a mute swears, does his mother wash his hands with soap? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 13/03/2018 08:57, Andy Burns wrote:
newshound wrote: ARW wrote: I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main advantage for me is that it bleeps. Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a screwdriver to check that! I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop, and a basic RCD functionality check. Clever. If I was starting over, I'd be tempted, but mine probably only comes out once a year now. |
What is happening with these electrics?
My socket tester shows all of the sockets on that ring are OK.
For the multimeter test, do I have to take every faceplate off the wall or can I insert something into the socket (like a 3 pin plug with long pins) and test that? Is it just the problem ring that needs testing or could the problem originate from one of the other circuits? |
What is happening with these electrics?
newshound wrote:
ARW wrote: I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about 13) and use it a lot. It's main advantage for me is that it bleeps. Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a screwdriver to check that! I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop, and a basic RCD functionality check. Fluke have recalled their range of this type of tester. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOYt-0WZxg&t=597s -- Graham. %Profound_observation% |
What is happening with these electrics?
On Tuesday, 13 March 2018 21:29:50 UTC, Rednadnerb wrote:
My socket tester shows all of the sockets on that ring are OK. For the multimeter test, do I have to take every faceplate off the wall or can I insert something into the socket (like a 3 pin plug with long pins) and test that? Is it just the problem ring that needs testing or could the problem originate from one of the other circuits? Then it's time to move on to other tests. The problem could only be from another circuit if it has a connection, eg a shared neutral, or shares an RCD - which is likely. If it were me I'd start with the lowest hanging fruit and PAT test every appliance, which would find any passing L-E current, which can make RCDs twitchy. That possibility could do with eliminating. Then I'd check the sockets are all wired/connected correctly using visual inspection of the rears & testing of circuit resistances. FWIW a basic hipot insulation tester is very easy to make. http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/Megger NT |
What is happening with these electrics?
Graham. wrote:
Fluke have recalled their range of this type of tester. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOYt-0WZxg&t=597s Yes, I noticed this 'voluntary' recall http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uken/support/safety/Fluke-Socket-Recall Probably less painful than a cattle prod though :-) |
What is happening with these electrics?
It's mice.
By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor. Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for. |
What is happening with these electrics?
On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 17:48:30 UTC, Rednadnerb wrote:
It's mice. By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor. Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for. If an RCD trips it's because stuff is shorting out. That's a fire risk. NT |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 14/03/18 17:48, Rednadnerb wrote:
It's mice. By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor. Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for. Id guess an earth neutral short -- it should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism (or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans, about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a 'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,' a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian utopia of 1984. Vaclav Klaus |
What is happening with these electrics?
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What is happening with these electrics?
On 14/03/2018 18:37, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/18 17:48, Rednadnerb wrote: It's mice. By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor. Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for. Id guess an earth neutral short Agreed, and if under the floor then might well be down to mice (although it could also be a stray nail) |
What is happening with these electrics?
On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 18:42:41 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/18 18:28, tabbypurr wrote: On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 17:48:30 UTC, Rednadnerb wrote: It's mice. By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor. Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for. If an RCD trips it's because stuff is shorting out. That's a fire risk. No, it is not It is because there is current getting to earth other than via the RCD, whicjh is not a fire risk It could be no more than too many RF filters across the mains, which is not a fire risk It could be because there is a neutral/earth short somewhere, which is not a fire risk It could be because a heater element is slightly leaky., which is not a fire risk In fact RCDs are really there to prevent electric shocks due to improper earthing or erth leak faults. They are not there to pervenet fire riss # That is the MCBs' job along with appliance and plug fuses. With respect he said it's mouse cable damage. We've no way to know if the shorting or leakage is L-E or N-E. Leakage can often icnrease oevr time, and as carbonisation occurs it can become a fire starter. An MCB won't do anything until i exceeds it's rated current by a fair margin. A fire can be started before that happens. Obviously that situation is a fire risk. NT |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 13/03/2018 23:12, Andy Burns wrote:
Graham. wrote: Fluke have recalled their range of this type of tester. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KOYt-0WZxg&t=597s Yes, I noticed this 'voluntary' recall http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uken/support/safety/Fluke-Socket-Recall Probably less painful than a cattle prod though :-) Interesting, I can't quite decide whether the cheap type that I posted might behave the same. |
What is happening with these electrics?
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What is happening with these electrics?
newshound wrote:
Interesting, I can't quite decide whether the cheap type that I posted might behave the same. The final Socket'n'See type that he tested, looks identical to the Kewcheck107 |
What is happening with these electrics?
On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 19:03:07 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 14/03/18 18:51, tabbypurr wrote: On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 18:42:41 UTC, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 14/03/18 18:28, tabbypurr wrote: On Wednesday, 14 March 2018 17:48:30 UTC, Rednadnerb wrote: It's mice. By a process of elimination I have narrowed the problem down to two lengths of cable, both run under the hall floor. Thank you all. I now just have to decide whether the occasional RCD trip is worth taking up the floor boards for. If an RCD trips it's because stuff is shorting out. That's a fire risk. No, it is not It is because there is current getting to earth other than via the RCD, whicjh is not a fire risk It could be no more than too many RF filters across the mains, which is not a fire risk It could be because there is a neutral/earth short somewhere, which is not a fire risk It could be because a heater element is slightly leaky., which is not a fire risk In fact RCDs are really there to prevent electric shocks due to improper earthing or erth leak faults. They are not there to pervenet fire riss # That is the MCBs' job along with appliance and plug fuses. With respect he said it's mouse cable damage. Where? You could always read what you're replying to. We've no way to know if the shorting or leakage is L-E or N-E. Yes we have, because LE would trip the MCB and elecrocute the ****ing mouse. BTDTGTTS L-E only trips an MCB if a large amount of current flows. Tracking across a bit of plastic does not do that. Leakage can often icnrease oevr time, and as carbonisation occurs it can become a fire starter. An MCB won't do anything until i exceeds it's rated current by a fair margin. A fire can be started before that happens. Obviously that situation is a fire risk. how does 'carbonisation' occur except by a partial short ? I'm not making much sense of that question. I can tell you it occurs having seen it enough times though. Anyone can invent arbitrary improbable and never seen in the wild scenarios in orer to avoid losing an argument I dare say they can. I've seen enough cases of tracking in plastic to know it's entirely real. I get the feeling further discussion is a bit pointless. NT |
What is happening with these electrics?
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What is happening with these electrics?
I'd push some prongs into the socket taken from a plug, but do it with a pair of pliers incase some are wired up wrong and switching them off leaves something live. Now you can switch the socket on and touch the meter ends to pairs of prongs in turn. Thank you James, I will remember that for next time. |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 13/03/2018 08:57, Andy Burns wrote:
newshound wrote: ARW wrote: I have the Kewteck Kewcheck103 (about £13) and use it a lot. It's main advantage for me is that it bleeps. Quite right about NE reversal, my mistake. I have PME so I need a screwdriver to check that! I have the kewcheck 107, it can check reversal (by using a finger as a capacitive earth reference) also gives a R/A/G check of the earth loop, and a basic RCD functionality check. I cannot find any reference that it can do a NE reversal check. -- Adam |
What is happening with these electrics?
On Wed, 14 Mar 2018 14:44:10 -0700 (PDT), Rednadnerb wrote:
Thank you James, I will remember that for next time. Troll-feeding sick idiot! |
What is happening with these electrics?
On 14/03/2018 20:59, some nutter wrote:
I'd push some prongs into the socket taken from a plug, but do it with a pair of pliers incase some are wired up wrong and switching them off leaves something live.* Now you can switch the socket on and touch the meter ends to pairs of prongs in turn. What a stupid way to do it when you can just wire some test leads to a proper plug and have safe insulated connections. |
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