Hi all

Struggling to get to the bottom of this one!

The boiler is Worcester Bosch 24ri system, not combi.
The controls are Honeywell 2 heating zones and cylinder zone.

The boiler is not showing error lights i.e. the blue indicator
light is constant, not flashing.
The Honeywell stats are wireless but seem ok.

When I up the stat temperature for either upstairs or downstairs
heating, the base unit indicator light led illuminates and the
appropriate motorised valve opens. I have had the covers off
both and can either see or hear the click of the microswitch. I
would be surprised if both had failed along with the hot water
zone at the same time.
Anyone know why my boiler isn't firing?

Background...... Air seems to be affecting the upstairs rads, but
they are reluctant to bleed despite standing water in the header
tank. I turned the boiler off before all this as I was adjusting
the auto bypass valve which sticks occasionally and causes
pressure surges.

Any comments or assistance appreciated.

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

It happens that TheChief formulated :
Any comments or assistance appreciated.

The only common point of failure I can think of is the timer clock,
have you tried over riding? Have you checked if the boiler is receiving
the signal to fire/run?

On 10/02/2018 17:15, TheChief wrote:
Hi all

Struggling to get to the bottom of this one!

The boiler is Worcester Bosch 24ri system, not combi.
The controls are Honeywell 2 heating zones and cylinder zone.

The boiler is not showing error lights i.e. the blue indicator
light is constant, not flashing.
The Honeywell stats are wireless but seem ok.

When I up the stat temperature for either upstairs or downstairs
heating, the base unit indicator light led illuminates and the
appropriate motorised valve opens. I have had the covers off
both and can either see or hear the click of the microswitch. I
would be surprised if both had failed along with the hot water
zone at the same time.
Anyone know why my boiler isn't firing?

Background...... Air seems to be affecting the upstairs rads, but
they are reluctant to bleed despite standing water in the header
tank. I turned the boiler off before all this as I was adjusting
the auto bypass valve which sticks occasionally and causes
pressure surges.

Any comments or assistance appreciated.

Phil

Does the boiler fire when there's a demand to heat the hot water
cylinder? If it DOES, it suggests that the microswitches in the heating
zone valves are not working, even though they appear to be.

If the HW doesn't work either, it's either a wiring fault or a boiler fault.

Have you got a multi-meter that's suitable for mains use? If so, you
need to trace where power is present, and not present. [I wouldn't trust
a neon screwdriver for that - they can give misleading results]

if you have a conventional S+ Plan system, the micro-switches in the 3
zone valves will all be wired in parallel, with their grey wires
connected to terminal 1 in the junction box and their orange wires to
terminal 10.

When one or more zones is calling for heat, terminal 10 should be live.
If it isn't but terminal 1 is, either no valves are open (their manual
levers will move freely when they are open) or the micro-switches are
not working - or a wire has become disconnected.

If terminal 10 IS live but the boiler still doesn't fire, you need to
trace the connection between this and the switched live on the boiler.
If power is getting to the boiler, there's a problem with the boiler. If
it's not, there's a problem with the wiring. As well as tracing the live
wires, make sure than no neutrals have accidentally become discounnected.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

Harry Bloomfield Wrote in message:
It happens that TheChief formulated :
Any comments or assistance appreciated.

The only common point of failure I can think of is the timer clock,
have you tried over riding? Have you checked if the boiler is receiving
the signal to fire/run?


Hi Harry

The boiler doesn't have a timer as such. The switching is done by
the programmable stats. I am not confident dismantling the
boiler and checking that end of things.
The fact that three motorised valves are telling the thing to fire
I would have thought should work. Also the pump is
running.
At one point I did manage to get a short burst from the boiler,
but the noise it made suggested that there is a lot of air
around. Would this cause an instant overheat and failure to
run?

Thanks

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

Roger Mills Wrote in message:
On 10/02/2018 17:15, TheChief wrote:
Hi all

Struggling to get to the bottom of this one!

The boiler is Worcester Bosch 24ri system, not combi.
The controls are Honeywell 2 heating zones and cylinder zone.

The boiler is not showing error lights i.e. the blue indicator
light is constant, not flashing.
The Honeywell stats are wireless but seem ok.

When I up the stat temperature for either upstairs or downstairs
heating, the base unit indicator light led illuminates and the
appropriate motorised valve opens. I have had the covers off
both and can either see or hear the click of the microswitch. I
would be surprised if both had failed along with the hot water
zone at the same time.
Anyone know why my boiler isn't firing?

Background...... Air seems to be affecting the upstairs rads, but
they are reluctant to bleed despite standing water in the header
tank. I turned the boiler off before all this as I was adjusting
the auto bypass valve which sticks occasionally and causes
pressure surges.

Any comments or assistance appreciated.

Phil

Does the boiler fire when there's a demand to heat the hot water
cylinder? If it DOES, it suggests that the microswitches in the heating
zone valves are not working, even though they appear to be.

If the HW doesn't work either, it's either a wiring fault or a boiler fault.

Have you got a multi-meter that's suitable for mains use? If so, you
need to trace where power is present, and not present. [I wouldn't trust
a neon screwdriver for that - they can give misleading results]

if you have a conventional S+ Plan system, the micro-switches in the 3
zone valves will all be wired in parallel, with their grey wires
connected to terminal 1 in the junction box and their orange wires to
terminal 10.

When one or more zones is calling for heat, terminal 10 should be live.
If it isn't but terminal 1 is, either no valves are open (their manual
levers will move freely when they are open) or the micro-switches are
not working - or a wire has become disconnected.

If terminal 10 IS live but the boiler still doesn't fire, you need to
trace the connection between this and the switched live on the boiler.
If power is getting to the boiler, there's a problem with the boiler. If
it's not, there's a problem with the wiring. As well as tracing the live
wires, make sure than no neutrals have accidentally become discounnected.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.


Thanks Roger

Any chance this could be down to an air lock and overheating?
As noted in my reply to Harry, I got the boiler to run v briefly
and this produced a fast flash error light.

The installation states that this indicates a volatile lock out
(sensor fan or code plug). No idea what a code plug
is.

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:05:30 +0000 (GMT+00:00)
TheChief wrote:


At one point I did manage to get a short burst from the boiler,
but the noise it made suggested that there is a lot of air
around. Would this cause an instant overheat and failure to
run?


Heat exchanger airlocked?

https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/su...16115167/12651.

Installation manual: page 32 - filling the system.

Steve Wrote in message:
On Sat, 10 Feb 2018 18:05:30 +0000 (GMT+00:00)
TheChief wrote:


At one point I did manage to get a short burst from the boiler,
but the noise it made suggested that there is a lot of air
around. Would this cause an instant overheat and failure to
run?


Heat exchanger airlocked?

https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/su...16115167/12651.

Installation manual: page 32 - filling the system.






Hi Steve

That looks like a good call.
Not sure if I am happy to take cover off boiler, I usually leave
all boiler work to experts.
The piping to the boiler is arranged in such a way that it will
not drain. However with the pressure relief valve playing up, I
could see water getting displaced kind of thing.

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

TheChief expressed precisely :
At one point I did manage to get a short burst from the boiler,
but the noise it made suggested that there is a lot of air
around. Would this cause an instant overheat and failure to
run?

I would imagine so. Am I right in assuming it uses an header tank? is
the header tank full? Otherwise, have you checked the pressure gauge on
the boiler, it needs to be higher than 1 bar, in the green region and
the air bled out.

Harry Bloomfield Wrote in message:
TheChief expressed precisely :
At one point I did manage to get a short burst from the boiler,
but the noise it made suggested that there is a lot of air
around. Would this cause an instant overheat and failure to
run?

I would imagine so. Am I right in assuming it uses an header tank? is
the header tank full? Otherwise, have you checked the pressure gauge on
the boiler, it needs to be higher than 1 bar, in the green region and
the air bled out.


Hi Harry

It's a vented system with a covered header tank in loft. I've
checked that and although there's a thin film of crud on the
bottom, the outlet is not blocked, the water level looks good and
the float valve works ok.

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 10/02/2018 18:05, TheChief wrote:
Harry Bloomfield Wrote in message:
It happens that TheChief formulated :
Any comments or assistance appreciated.

The only common point of failure I can think of is the timer clock,
have you tried over riding? Have you checked if the boiler is receiving
the signal to fire/run?


Hi Harry

The boiler doesn't have a timer as such. The switching is done by
the programmable stats. I am not confident dismantling the
boiler and checking that end of things.
The fact that three motorised valves are telling the thing to fire
I would have thought should work. Also the pump is
running.
At one point I did manage to get a short burst from the boiler,
but the noise it made suggested that there is a lot of air
around. Would this cause an instant overheat and failure to
run?


I don't pretend to be a boiler expert but this sounds exactly like what
we had a few years back. We have a contract so called the company in.
The problem was the condensation drain - I think a sensor and pipe. A
temp repair was done and new parts fitted, fine since. As I understood
it, the sensor cut the gas supply off in error. (I always ask what they
fix etc- just out of interest.)


--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

Brian Reay Wrote in message:
On 10/02/2018 18:05, TheChief wrote:
Harry Bloomfield Wrote in message:
It happens that TheChief formulated :
Any comments or assistance appreciated.

The only common point of failure I can think of is the timer clock,
have you tried over riding? Have you checked if the boiler is receiving
the signal to fire/run?


Hi Harry

The boiler doesn't have a timer as such. The switching is done by
the programmable stats. I am not confident dismantling the
boiler and checking that end of things.
The fact that three motorised valves are telling the thing to fire
I would have thought should work. Also the pump is
running.
At one point I did manage to get a short burst from the boiler,
but the noise it made suggested that there is a lot of air
around. Would this cause an instant overheat and failure to
run?


I don't pretend to be a boiler expert but this sounds exactly like what
we had a few years back. We have a contract so called the company in.
The problem was the condensation drain - I think a sensor and pipe. A
temp repair was done and new parts fitted, fine since. As I understood
it, the sensor cut the gas supply off in error. (I always ask what they
fix etc- just out of interest.)


--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud


Thanks Brian

Sounds possible. Can't help thinking that there's a huge
coincidence here. First floor rads won't bleed and boiler won't
run.

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 10/02/2018 18:10, TheChief wrote:
Roger Mills Wrote in message:
On 10/02/2018 17:15, TheChief wrote:
Hi all

Struggling to get to the bottom of this one!

The boiler is Worcester Bosch 24ri system, not combi.
The controls are Honeywell 2 heating zones and cylinder zone.

The boiler is not showing error lights i.e. the blue indicator
light is constant, not flashing.
The Honeywell stats are wireless but seem ok.

When I up the stat temperature for either upstairs or downstairs
heating, the base unit indicator light led illuminates and the
appropriate motorised valve opens. I have had the covers off
both and can either see or hear the click of the microswitch. I
would be surprised if both had failed along with the hot water
zone at the same time.
Anyone know why my boiler isn't firing?

Background...... Air seems to be affecting the upstairs rads, but
they are reluctant to bleed despite standing water in the header
tank. I turned the boiler off before all this as I was adjusting
the auto bypass valve which sticks occasionally and causes
pressure surges.

Any comments or assistance appreciated.

Phil

Does the boiler fire when there's a demand to heat the hot water
cylinder? If it DOES, it suggests that the microswitches in the heating
zone valves are not working, even though they appear to be.

If the HW doesn't work either, it's either a wiring fault or a boiler fault.

Have you got a multi-meter that's suitable for mains use? If so, you
need to trace where power is present, and not present. [I wouldn't trust
a neon screwdriver for that - they can give misleading results]

if you have a conventional S+ Plan system, the micro-switches in the 3
zone valves will all be wired in parallel, with their grey wires
connected to terminal 1 in the junction box and their orange wires to
terminal 10.

When one or more zones is calling for heat, terminal 10 should be live.
If it isn't but terminal 1 is, either no valves are open (their manual
levers will move freely when they are open) or the micro-switches are
not working - or a wire has become disconnected.

If terminal 10 IS live but the boiler still doesn't fire, you need to
trace the connection between this and the switched live on the boiler.
If power is getting to the boiler, there's a problem with the boiler. If
it's not, there's a problem with the wiring. As well as tracing the live
wires, make sure than no neutrals have accidentally become discounnected.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.


Thanks Roger

Any chance this could be down to an air lock and overheating?

Lack of circulation or a HX full of air will usually cause a over temp
lockout, however it would not stop it firing in the first place usually
- at least when the boiler is cold and has been freshly power cycled.

Is the pump controlled from the boiler, or it it wired up to the wiring
centre?

If its on the wiring centre, then it will typically be driven by the
same call for heat that goes to the boiler. In that case it would
suggest the call for heat is going to the boiler, but not much else.
That still points to the boiler itself being the problem though.

If the pump is run directly by the boiler, and it spins up that also
suggests a boiler fault, but does give you a bit of extra information,
since it suggests the boiler is seeing and responding to the demand, and
attempting to fire before failing at some point of its proving cycle
(something like not getting a tell back from the air pressure switch, or
flame detection failing)


As noted in my reply to Harry, I got the boiler to run v briefly
and this produced a fast flash error light

The installation states that this indicates a volatile lock out
(sensor fan or code plug). No idea what a code plug
is.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm Wrote in message:
On 10/02/2018 18:10, TheChief wrote:
Roger Mills Wrote in message:
On 10/02/2018 17:15, TheChief wrote:
Hi all

Struggling to get to the bottom of this one!

The boiler is Worcester Bosch 24ri system, not combi.
The controls are Honeywell 2 heating zones and cylinder zone.

The boiler is not showing error lights i.e. the blue indicator
light is constant, not flashing.
The Honeywell stats are wireless but seem ok.

When I up the stat temperature for either upstairs or downstairs
heating, the base unit indicator light led illuminates and the
appropriate motorised valve opens. I have had the covers off
both and can either see or hear the click of the microswitch. I
would be surprised if both had failed along with the hot water
zone at the same time.
Anyone know why my boiler isn't firing?

Background...... Air seems to be affecting the upstairs rads, but
they are reluctant to bleed despite standing water in the header
tank. I turned the boiler off before all this as I was adjusting
the auto bypass valve which sticks occasionally and causes
pressure surges.

Any comments or assistance appreciated.

Phil

Does the boiler fire when there's a demand to heat the hot water
cylinder? If it DOES, it suggests that the microswitches in the heating
zone valves are not working, even though they appear to be.

If the HW doesn't work either, it's either a wiring fault or a boiler fault.

Have you got a multi-meter that's suitable for mains use? If so, you
need to trace where power is present, and not present. [I wouldn't trust
a neon screwdriver for that - they can give misleading results]

if you have a conventional S+ Plan system, the micro-switches in the 3
zone valves will all be wired in parallel, with their grey wires
connected to terminal 1 in the junction box and their orange wires to
terminal 10.

When one or more zones is calling for heat, terminal 10 should be live.
If it isn't but terminal 1 is, either no valves are open (their manual
levers will move freely when they are open) or the micro-switches are
not working - or a wire has become disconnected.

If terminal 10 IS live but the boiler still doesn't fire, you need to
trace the connection between this and the switched live on the boiler.
If power is getting to the boiler, there's a problem with the boiler. If
it's not, there's a problem with the wiring. As well as tracing the live
wires, make sure than no neutrals have accidentally become discounnected.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.


Thanks Roger

Any chance this could be down to an air lock and overheating?

Lack of circulation or a HX full of air will usually cause a over temp
lockout, however it would not stop it firing in the first place usually
- at least when the boiler is cold and has been freshly power cycled.

Is the pump controlled from the boiler, or it it wired up to the wiring
centre?

If its on the wiring centre, then it will typically be driven by the
same call for heat that goes to the boiler. In that case it would
suggest the call for heat is going to the boiler, but not much else.
That still points to the boiler itself being the problem though.

If the pump is run directly by the boiler, and it spins up that also
suggests a boiler fault, but does give you a bit of extra information,
since it suggests the boiler is seeing and responding to the demand, and
attempting to fire before failing at some point of its proving cycle
(something like not getting a tell back from the air pressure switch, or
flame detection failing)


As noted in my reply to Harry, I got the boiler to run v briefly
and this produced a fast flash error light

The installation states that this indicates a volatile lock out
(sensor fan or code plug). No idea what a code plug
is.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/


Hi John

Yes the pump is connected to a wiring centre in the airing cupboard.

I don't take the boiler casing off as a rule and leave that to
gas-safe guys.
As this is on the water side I might be tempted to pursue the air
lock route.

Thanks for the insight John

Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

TheChief expressed precisely :
Thanks Brian

Sounds possible. Can't help thinking that there's a huge
coincidence here. First floor rads won't bleed and boiler won't
run.

I agree, for some reason the system is lacking in pressure - you are
saying the header tank has water, is filling, yet the system doesn't
have enough pressure to be able to bleed itself. There lie the problem,
insufficient pressure.

I can't understand what you mean by the radiators will not bleed - do you
mean nothing (air or water) comes out?

On 11/02/2018 21:22, TheChief wrote:
DerbyBorn Wrote in message:
I can't understand what you mean by the radiators will not bleed - do you
mean nothing (air or water) comes out?



There are three rads on a "half" of the upstairs circuit which do
nothing when the bleed valves are opened.
They are on the same section of flow and return pipes.
Other rads upstairs issue water as do downstairs rads when bled.
I opened the lockshields and checked the pins on the thermo valves
and both were open on the rads that wouldn't bleed.


Phil


Get a paper clip or pin. Close both lockshields. Remove bleed valve.
Clean hole with paper clip/pin. Open one lock shield a TINY amount. If
air starts coming, close, replace bleed valve. Return lock shields to
previous positions, bleed as normal. If no air, try cleaning again.

--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

DerbyBorn Wrote in message:
I can't understand what you mean by the radiators will not bleed - do you
mean nothing (air or water) comes out?



There are three rads on a "half" of the upstairs circuit which do
nothing when the bleed valves are opened.
They are on the same section of flow and return pipes.
Other rads upstairs issue water as do downstairs rads when bled.
I opened the lockshields and checked the pins on the thermo valves
and both were open on the rads that wouldn't bleed.


Phil
--


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/