I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?

On 16/01/2018 14:02, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

It is certainly possible. Such kit does exist.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

One thing to check is will the car allow you once the engine is started
to drive away without any keys with you? This can be embarrassing!

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?

I expect it would work but it wouldn't be very convenient.

I suspect the magic box needs to be moderately near to the key fob to do
the transaction so keeping your keys near the middle of the house should
be almost good enough. Inside a metal tobacco tin if you are paranoid.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On 16/01/2018 14:15, Martin Brown wrote:

I suspect the magic box needs to be moderately near to the key fob to do
the transaction so keeping your keys near the middle of the house should
be almost good enough. Inside a metal tobacco tin if you are paranoid.


CPC sell a range of RF shielded boxes.

Bill

In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?

A neighbour had a near new Disco stolen. The type with keyless entry.

On their new replacement (old car never recovered) they have one of those
massive crook-lock type thingies on the steering wheel - and keep the keys
in some special safe the dealer sold them.

Sounds a great time saver, this keyless system...

--
*Where there's a will, I want to be in it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/01/2018 14:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article 6,
DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?

A neighbour had a near new Disco stolen. The type with keyless entry.

On their new replacement (old car never recovered) they have one of those
massive crook-lock type thingies on the steering wheel - and keep the keys
in some special safe the dealer sold them.

Sounds a great time saver, this keyless system...


My neighbour had his car taken even though the key was in a tin.
It appears that his ford model has a blind spot on the alarm
which lets you break the glass and poke a hole through it near the dash
and reprogram the management computer without setting the alarm off.
Why they allow re-programming while the alarm is set is anyone's guess.

On 16/01/2018 17:21, Huge wrote:
On 2018-01-16, dennis@home wrote:

[19 lines snipped]

My neighbour had his car taken even though the key was in a tin.
It appears that his ford model has a blind spot on the alarm
which lets you break the glass and poke a hole through it near the dash
and reprogram the management computer without setting the alarm off.

Wanna buy a bridge?


Go and talk about something you know about disckhead.

On 16/01/2018 17:21, Huge wrote:
On 2018-01-16, dennis@home wrote:

[19 lines snipped]

My neighbour had his car taken even though the key was in a tin.
It appears that his ford model has a blind spot on the alarm
which lets you break the glass and poke a hole through it near the dash
and reprogram the management computer without setting the alarm off.

Wanna buy a bridge?


For anyone as stupid as huge dickhead have a look at

https://www.advanced-incar.co.uk/201...theft-protect/

I still have the cctv of the thieves too.
Not much use in identifying them as it was too dark for the IR
illumination as its not intended to work on the other side of the street.

It was only a few months ago.

Sounds a great time saver, this keyless system...


It is cheaper than providing mechanical locks!

DerbyBorn formulated on Tuesday :
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?

Thieves can read the keys remotely, yes - so keeping them in some sort
of metal cage is a worthwhile precaution. It needn't be anything
special, even a glass ornament with a cooking foil liner is enough.

Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read in
your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with cooking
foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet lined with the
plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

On 16/01/2018 15:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It needn't be anything
special, even a glass ornament with a cooking foil liner is enough.

Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read in
your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with cooking
foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet lined with the
plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

Bill

Bill Wright wrote :
What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

Microwaves!

On 16/01/2018 17:48, Harry Bloomfield wrote:
Bill Wright wrote :
What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

Microwaves!

Ooh arr

Bill

In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:
Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read in
your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with cooking
foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet lined with the
plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

How does one of these card readers which can work some way from the cards
- ie when in your wallet - differentiate between the different cards?

And surely there has to be a limit on the distance any such device can
work at?

--
*Why is it that most nudists are people you don't want to see naked?*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/01/2018 00:34, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Bill Wright wrote:

Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read in
your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with cooking
foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet lined with the
plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

I doubt if the aluminised polymer film for keeping coffee fresh is a
good enough conductor to prevent your card being read. It lets light
through. Try presenting your card for payment wrapped in the stuff and
see what happens. The thinnest real aluminium foil ought to do it.

What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

How does one of these card readers which can work some way from the cards
- ie when in your wallet - differentiate between the different cards?

It sends out the request on higher power to activate the card and
receives with a much more sensitive receiver than the normal shop
device. Probably still only has a working range of at most a few feet
parallel to its larger transmit coil as opposed to a couple of inches.

And surely there has to be a limit on the distance any such device can
work at?

Yes. But it is probably a lot further than you think given a big enough
antenna to detect the signal.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wed, 17 Jan 2018 08:28:25 +0000, Martin Brown wrote:

It sends out the request on higher power to activate the card and
receives with a much more sensitive receiver than the normal shop
device. Probably still only has a working range of at most a few feet
parallel to its larger transmit coil as opposed to a couple of inches.

And then has to unscramble the responses from the multiple NFC or HF
RFID devices it wakes up. Not all of which will be bank cards.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Martin Brown brought next idea :
I doubt if the aluminised polymer film for keeping coffee fresh is a good
enough conductor to prevent your card being read. It lets light through. Try
presenting your card for payment wrapped in the stuff and see what happens.
The thinnest real aluminium foil ought to do it.

I have tried it in shops (plus other tests) and yes it does prevent it
working. The coffee foil I used does not allow light through, I suspect
that is its main purpose, to prevent light spoiling the coffee grounds.

Dave Plowman wrote:

How does one of these card readers which can work some way from the cards
- ie when in your wallet - differentiate between the different cards?

The RFID reader repeatedly queries for devices with a longer and longer
prefix of their ID, one bit at a time, the cards answer "yes" only if
they have a matching prefix.

This can detect thousands of tags embedded in items of clothing at once
as they enter a warehouse on a lorry, or can tell if more than one bank
card is present at a card reader.

Huge wrote:

Sadly, so I have been told, a lot of the cheaper readers do not
implement CSMA/CD

I suppose for a payment terminal, you don't want to talk to more than
one card anyway, though some do seem to detect it, I've had them say
"only present a single card" OWTTE, maybe they just detect that by
garbled communication?

if that's what the "prefix creep" can be described as.

I think it's proper name is anti-collision

Dave Plowman (News) expressed precisely :
How does one of these card readers which can work some way from the cards
- ie when in your wallet - differentiate between the different cards?

And surely there has to be a limit on the distance any such device can
work at?

They cannot, if you have multiple cards close together, but if you only
have one on occasion - then it really needs to be screened to prevent
it being skimmed.

Harry Bloomfield wrote:

Dave Plowman wrote:

surely there has to be a limit on the distance any such device can
work at?

They cannot, if you have multiple cards close together

You shouldn't rely on two cards being next to each other to give
assurance that neither of them can be read. It is perfectly possible to
identify two or more cards, and then speak to them individually, so if
the till wanted to, it could ask "Do you want to pay on your Barclays
card or your Santander card?", or a hacker could take details of both cards.

In article ,
says...


How does one of these card readers which can work some way from the cards
- ie when in your wallet - differentiate between the different cards?


This has been discussed at length elsewhere in the last month
or six weeks and the discussion included links to the
precification for NFC/RFID cards and protocols but I've just
spent over an hour searching everywhere I can possibly think
of but not found where it was.

Sorry, I tried!

Perhaps you might like to try yourself.


--

Terry

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
http://www.avg.com

On 16/01/18 17:37, Bill Wright wrote:
On 16/01/2018 15:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It needn't be anything special, even a glass ornament with a cooking
foil liner is enough.

Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read in
your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with cooking
foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet lined with
the plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

Bill

It's a basic Faraday cage - why would you need to prove it?

On 17/01/2018 09:58, Tim Watts wrote:
On 16/01/18 17:37, Bill Wright wrote:
On 16/01/2018 15:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It needn't be anything special, even a glass ornament with a cooking
foil liner is enough.

Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read
in your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with
cooking foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet
lined with the plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

It's a basic Faraday cage - why would you need to prove it?

Real aluminium foil with edges folded over might be but the aluminised
plastic that they wrap coffee in isn't likely to do much good.

Effective Faraday cages are harder to construct than you might think.
(and I suspect that the power transfer uses magnetic coupling anyway)

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 17/01/2018 09:58, Tim Watts wrote:
On 16/01/18 17:37, Bill Wright wrote:
On 16/01/2018 15:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It needn't be anything special, even a glass ornament with a cooking
foil liner is enough.

Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read
in your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with
cooking foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet
lined with the plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

It's a basic Faraday cage - why would you need to prove it?

Real aluminium foil with edges folded over might be but the aluminised
plastic that they wrap coffee in isn't likely to do much good.

Effective Faraday cages are harder to construct than you might think.
(and I suspect that the power transfer uses magnetic coupling anyway)

then make the cage out of mu-metal

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 17/01/18 10:06, Martin Brown wrote:
On 17/01/2018 09:58, Tim Watts wrote:
On 16/01/18 17:37, Bill Wright wrote:
On 16/01/2018 15:28, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

It needn't be anything special, even a glass ornament with a cooking
foil liner is enough.

Likewise, you can prevent contactless debit/credit cards being read
in your wallet, by lining the outside pocket of the wallet with
cooking foil or similar metalised cooking foil. I have my wallet
lined with the plastic foil which ground coffee is sold in.

What experimental evidence have you for these assertions?

It's a basic Faraday cage - why would you need to prove it?

Real aluminium foil with edges folded over might be but the aluminised
plastic that they wrap coffee in isn't likely to do much good.

That's what the OP said...


Effective Faraday cages are harder to construct than you might think.
(and I suspect that the power transfer uses magnetic coupling anyway)


That needs some investigation - I'm interested in this...

Martin Brown brought next idea :
Effective Faraday cages are harder to construct than you might think.
(and I suspect that the power transfer uses magnetic coupling anyway)

The slot type reader uses a magnetic reader, like a cassette tape. The
contact less card uses RF via an embedded chip.

Martin Brown explained :
Effective Faraday cages are harder to construct than you might think.
(and I suspect that the power transfer uses magnetic coupling anyway)

True, but they are also quite heavy. All you are trying to do is foil a
low power attempt to skim a card in your pocket - which is difficult
even if you cooperate with the process.

On Tuesday, 16 January 2018 14:02:54 UTC, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?

some info here.

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...e-faraday-cage

No its a good idea really. Its a faraday shield.

Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.236...
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?

On 16/01/2018 14:02, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use?

Probably. If the container is portable you could put the key in it then
take the container to your car and see if it unlocks. You could repeat
with different containers to see which works best.

Perhaps also consider a steering wheel lock:
http://www.carbuyer.co.uk/tips-and-a...to-buy-in-2017

On 16/01/18 14:02, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?


Faraday cage - yes it would work.

On 1/16/2018 2:02 PM, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it all
a bit like tin foil hats?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbhHcxscu4Q

On 1/18/2018 9:41 AM, J1MBO ... wrote:
On 1/16/2018 2:02 PM, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the
code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it
all
a bit like tin foil hats?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbhHcxscu4Q

therefore I would worry more about how much it will cost you even if it
isn't stolen ......

"J1MBO ..." wrote in news:jx08C.433351$pP1.409150
@fx21.am4:

On 1/18/2018 9:41 AM, J1MBO ... wrote:
On 1/16/2018 2:02 PM, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the
code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it
all
a bit like tin foil hats?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbhHcxscu4Q

therefore I would worry more about how much it will cost you even if it
isn't stolen ......


We can easily have our heads in the sand and be "technology denyers". The
bloke in the video would be happier with contact points and a carbureter.
Many changes are done for reasons of cost and producability. Today's cars
are fantastic - but you need to accept a different approach to servicing
and life.

On 1/18/2018 3:13 PM, DerbyBorn wrote:
"J1MBO ..." wrote in news:jx08C.433351$pP1.409150
@fx21.am4:

On 1/18/2018 9:41 AM, J1MBO ... wrote:
On 1/16/2018 2:02 PM, DerbyBorn wrote:
I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the
code
from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it
all
a bit like tin foil hats?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbhHcxscu4Q

therefore I would worry more about how much it will cost you even if it
isn't stolen ......


We can easily have our heads in the sand and be "technology denyers". The
bloke in the video would be happier with contact points and a carbureter.
Many changes are done for reasons of cost and producability. Today's cars
are fantastic - but you need to accept a different approach to servicing
and life.


he is a great mechanic and doesn't like modern unnecessary complications
for the sake of it and I agree with everything he says in his videos
......I see you haven't kept up with modern spelling...tee hee

and I suppose you would be happy with no dip sticks ...?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGE6roEThig

"J1MBO ..." wrote in news:6j38C.432767$9X4.425395
@fx02.am4:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mGE6roEThig

I know several younger people who really won't think to check the dipstick
- or tyre pressures or much else. The expectation is that the car keeps
going.
Not my way - I am from the top up the dashpot era - but the average
motorist is changing.

In article ,
J1MBO ... wrote:
he is a great mechanic and doesn't like modern unnecessary complications
for the sake of it and I agree with everything he says in his videos
.....I see you haven't kept up with modern spelling...tee hee

and I suppose you would be happy with no dip sticks ...?

You use a dipstick to check how much fuel you have left? No? Why for oil,
then?

--
*A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 16/01/2018 16:27, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:02:50 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the
code from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it
all a bit like tin foil hats?

Better off doing some investigating, and finding a wire that stops the
engine when cut. Then fit a microswitch somewhere non-intuitive. And even
then, a really determined gang would bring a low loader, and just lift
the vehicle.

In the old days you could immobilise a car by shorting the points. The
starter worked but the car wouldn't start. You used to be able to buy a
switch to do the job which you installed in a concealed location - but
you had to remember to set it. After my Mk1 Escort was nicked (and
returned with a let down tyre), I made a immobilisation circuit (using a
2-way relay) which set itself when the ignition was turned off, and to
reset it required the ignition to be turned on and a concealed button
pressed, so I couldn't forget to set it even if I was leaving it for a
short time. There were several unsuccessful attempts to nick it
subsequently.

--
Max Demian

In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 16/01/2018 16:27, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:02:50 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the
code from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it
all a bit like tin foil hats?

Better off doing some investigating, and finding a wire that stops the
engine when cut. Then fit a microswitch somewhere non-intuitive. And even
then, a really determined gang would bring a low loader, and just lift
the vehicle.

In the old days you could immobilise a car by shorting the points. The
starter worked but the car wouldn't start. You used to be able to buy a
switch to do the job which you installed in a concealed location - but
you had to remember to set it. After my Mk1 Escort was nicked (and
returned with a let down tyre), I made a immobilisation circuit (using a
2-way relay) which set itself when the ignition was turned off, and to
reset it required the ignition to be turned on and a concealed button
pressed, so I couldn't forget to set it even if I was leaving it for a
short time. There were several unsuccessful attempts to nick it
subsequently.

A switch across the points might not be the best idea - given the rather
high voltage spike when they open, when working normally. Might cause
misfires.

If you had an electric pump, better to isolate that. The engine would
start, then stop when the carb emptied. And often more difficult to hot
wire than an ignition cut out, especially if the pump is in the locked
boot.

--
*When the going gets tough, the tough take a coffee break *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" Wrote in message:
In article ,
Max Demian wrote:
On 16/01/2018 16:27, Jethro_uk wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jan 2018 14:02:50 +0000, DerbyBorn wrote:

I have read of the odd car theft where a device is used to access the
code from a keyfob in the house to unlock and steal a car.

I am about to get a car with such a feature.

Is keeping the fob in a metal container in the house any use? Or is it
all a bit like tin foil hats?

Better off doing some investigating, and finding a wire that stops the
engine when cut. Then fit a microswitch somewhere non-intuitive. And even
then, a really determined gang would bring a low loader, and just lift
the vehicle.

In the old days you could immobilise a car by shorting the points. The
starter worked but the car wouldn't start. You used to be able to buy a
switch to do the job which you installed in a concealed location - but
you had to remember to set it. After my Mk1 Escort was nicked (and
returned with a let down tyre), I made a immobilisation circuit (using a
2-way relay) which set itself when the ignition was turned off, and to
reset it required the ignition to be turned on and a concealed button
pressed, so I couldn't forget to set it even if I was leaving it for a
short time. There were several unsuccessful attempts to nick it
subsequently.

A switch across the points might not be the best idea - given the rather
high voltage spike when they open, when working normally. Might cause
misfires.

If you had an electric pump, better to isolate that. The engine would
start, then stop when the carb emptied. And often more difficult to hot
wire than an ignition cut out, especially if the pump is in the locked
boot.


Points? Carb? With kessy? Shome mishtake shurely?...
--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/