Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:



Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

A google for "methanol water mixture freezing point" shows that the
freezing point vs concentration graph is non-linear.

On 22/12/2017 13:03, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:

Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

I would have thought that methylated spirit is cheaper (ethanol with
around 7.5% methanol). (I used to add meths to my washer bottle, which
coloured the plastic purple.)

A google for "methanol water mixture freezing point" shows that the
freezing point vs concentration graph is non-linear.

So is ethanol.

--
Max Demian

On 22/12/2017 12:17, Vortex13 wrote:


Used undiluted it claims protectionÂ* to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

The thing is it does not work!. Get a minus 4 night and at 50% dilution
it will have frozen.

--
Adam

On 22/12/2017 13:17, ARW wrote:
On 22/12/2017 12:17, Vortex13 wrote:


Used undiluted it claims protectionÂ* to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

The thing is it does not work!. Get a minus 4 night and at 50% dilution
it will have frozen.

So true. That's why I add meth to mine.

Mike

On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:16:31 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 22/12/2017 13:03, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:

Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

I would have thought that methylated spirit is cheaper (ethanol with
around 7.5% methanol). (I used to add meths to my washer bottle, which
coloured the plastic purple.)

I think methanol is the cheapest at the industrial level, but I might
be wrong.

I wouldn't use meths myself, as I don't like the pyridine smell, and I
suspect that it would rot the windscreen wiper blades.

Brine.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Vortex13" wrote in message
...


Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

If you look at mars, There has been running water on the planet recently
even though the temp is low and the air pressure low and one would expect it
either to evaporate or freeze, its only because its salty or mixed with
minerals that it is still fluid long enough to flow.

Water is quite interesting at the molecular level, expanding when cold and
when hot, it can also pack itself in ways that allow gasses to exist
between the molecules without being absorbed.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Caecilius" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:



Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

A google for "methanol water mixture freezing point" shows that the
freezing point vs concentration graph is non-linear.

On 22/12/2017 14:06, Muddymike wrote:
On 22/12/2017 13:17, ARW wrote:
On 22/12/2017 12:17, Vortex13 wrote:


Used undiluted it claims protectionÂ* to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

The thing is it does not work!. Get a minus 4 night and at 50%
dilution it will have frozen.

So true. That's why I add meth to mine.


But it's not just screen wash is it?

De-icer these days only seems to work when it's above minus 1 deg
regardless of what it says on the tin.


--
Adam

Brian Gaff wrote:
If you look at mars, There has been running water on the planet recently
even though the temp is low and the air pressure low and one would expect it
either to evaporate or freeze, its only because its salty or mixed with
minerals that it is still fluid long enough to flow.

Water is quite interesting at the molecular level, expanding when cold and
when hot, it can also pack itself in ways that allow gasses to exist
between the molecules without being absorbed.
Brian

+1

It has always stuck in my mind what I was taught at school in the 60s
which was without the weak hydrogen bonding of water into a molecule (I
think with 18.H2O), water would be a gas at room temperature and we
would not exist being mainly composed of water.

Bob

ARW wrote:

Vortex13 wrote:

Used undiluted it claims protectionÂ* to -20C
50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

The thing is it does not work!. Get a minus 4 night and at 50% dilution
it will have frozen.

Get the VW stuff (rectangular bottle part number G052164M1 they do
another round bottle, not as good).

Claims -70°C at 100% and -16°C at 33%, I probably use 10% and never had
it freeze, was -8°C the other week, also it's not the gloopy PEG type.

On 22/12/17 13:03, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:



Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

A google for "methanol water mixture freezing point" shows that the
freezing point vs concentration graph is non-linear.

Isopropyl I would think. But could be ethanol/methanol


--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 22/12/17 14:34, ARW wrote:
On 22/12/2017 14:06, Muddymike wrote:
On 22/12/2017 13:17, ARW wrote:
On 22/12/2017 12:17, Vortex13 wrote:


Used undiluted it claims protectionÂ* to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

The thing is it does not work!. Get a minus 4 night and at 50%
dilution it will have frozen.

So true. That's why I add meth to mine.


But it's not just screen wash is it?

De-icer these days only seems to work when it's above minus 1 deg
regardless of what it says on the tin.


windchill makes the alcohol screenwash useless at speed. I remember
driving up N German Autobahn at subzero withh freezing fog icing up the
aerial, and the screenwash simply stopped working till the Defeneder
stopped moving. Then it froze as soon as I started again.

I generally use it neat as well



--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 22/12/2017 12:17, Vortex13 wrote:


Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

How does what work?

Are you expecting 50% dilution to be -10C? Why?

Is 20C twice as hot as 10C?
Is 40C twice as hot as 20C?
Of course not.

You should use the Kelvin scale for comparisons, 253K for -20C and
265.5K for -7.5C to get a true comparision of concentration required v
temperature.

Andy

On 22/12/2017 14:39, Bob Minchin wrote:

It has always stuck in my mind what I was taught at school in the 60s
which was without the weak hydrogen bonding of water into a molecule (I
think with 18.H2O), water would be a gas at room temperature and we
would not exist being mainly composed of water.

I hope it doesn't forget to do that. I wouldn't want to explode suddenly.





Bob

GB wrote:
On 22/12/2017 14:39, Bob Minchin wrote:

It has always stuck in my mind what I was taught at school in the 60s
which was without the weak hydrogen bonding of water into a molecule
(I think with 18.H2O), water would be a gas at room temperature and we
would not exist being mainly composed of water.

I hope it doesn't forget to do that. I wouldn't want to explode suddenly.





Bob

Yes that is sort of the point. A so-called 'weak force' is utterly
critical to our whole civilisation.
Beats Trump LOL

Vortex13 wrote

Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

Thats what if freezes at undiluted.

Brian Gaff wrote

If you look at mars, There has been running water on the planet recently

Fraid not
http://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2...hirise/9157880

even though the temp is low and the air pressure low and one would expect
it either to evaporate or freeze, its only because its salty or mixed with
minerals that it is still fluid long enough to flow.

Water is quite interesting at the molecular level, expanding when cold and
when hot, it can also pack itself in ways that allow gasses to exist
between the molecules without being absorbed.

"Caecilius" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:



Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

A google for "methanol water mixture freezing point" shows that the
freezing point vs concentration graph is non-linear.

On 22/12/2017 14:09, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:16:31 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 22/12/2017 13:03, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:

Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

I would have thought that methylated spirit is cheaper (ethanol with
around 7.5% methanol). (I used to add meths to my washer bottle, which
coloured the plastic purple.)

I think methanol is the cheapest at the industrial level, but I might
be wrong.

I wouldn't use meths myself, as I don't like the pyridine smell, and I
suspect that it would rot the windscreen wiper blades.

That's only in the purple "domestic" stuff, proper "Industrial Meths"
doesn't have it.

On 22/12/17 14:34, ARW wrote:

De-icer these days only seems to work when it's above minus 1 deg
regardless of what it says on the tin.



During the recent cold spell I spayed de-icer on the windscreen, which
promptly froze making things worse. I wasn't below -2C.


--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:09:10 +0000, Caecilius wrote:

On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 13:16:31 +0000, Max Demian
wrote:

On 22/12/2017 13:03, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:

Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

I would have thought that methylated spirit is cheaper (ethanol with
around 7.5% methanol). (I used to add meths to my washer bottle, which
coloured the plastic purple.)

I think methanol is the cheapest at the industrial level, but I might be
wrong.

I wouldn't use meths myself, as I don't like the pyridine smell, and I
suspect that it would rot the windscreen wiper blades.

I've used it for about 40 years, and I've never had problems. I quite
like the smell...



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 22/12/2017 21:01, DJC wrote:
On 22/12/17 14:34, ARW wrote:

De-icer these days only seems to work when it's above minus 1 deg
regardless of what it says on the tin.



During the recent cold spell I spayed de-icer on the windscreen, which
promptly froze making things worse. I wasn't below -2C.



That isn't surprising.
You melt the ice and that takes heat to do so.
That mostly comes from the glass so it gets colder and any remaining
water/fluid will freeze. If there is a lot of ice it will get so cold
the insides will condense and freeze.

Its simple physics and its the reason I don't have any de-icer but I do
have a scraper.

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:09:10 +0000, Caecilius wrote:

I wouldn't use meths myself, as I don't like the pyridine smell, and I
suspect that it would rot the windscreen wiper blades.

I've used it for about 40 years, and I've never had problems. I quite
like the smell...

Ditto. That 'Mamod' smell :-)
--
Graeme

On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 22:32:16 +0000, Graeme wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:09:10 +0000, Caecilius wrote:

I wouldn't use meths myself, as I don't like the pyridine smell, and I
suspect that it would rot the windscreen wiper blades.

I've used it for about 40 years, and I've never had problems. I quite
like the smell...

Ditto. That 'Mamod' smell :-)

Well, yes. And I have one of those too.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 22:32:16 +0000, Graeme wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 14:09:10 +0000, Caecilius wrote:

I wouldn't use meths myself, as I don't like the pyridine smell, and I
suspect that it would rot the windscreen wiper blades.

I've used it for about 40 years, and I've never had problems. I quite
like the smell...

Ditto. That 'Mamod' smell :-)

Castrol R ?

Well, yes. And I have one of those too.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In message , Bob Eager
writes

Ditto. That 'Mamod' smell :-)

Well, yes. And I have one of those too.

I'll see your Mamod and raise you a Bowman loco.

--
Graeme

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 08:22:02 +0000, Graeme wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes

Ditto. That 'Mamod' smell :-)

Well, yes. And I have one of those too.

I'll see your Mamod and raise you a Bowman loco.

Would be nice...



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 22/12/2017 13:03, Caecilius wrote:
On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 12:17:07 +0000, Vortex13
wrote:



Used undiluted it claims protection to -20C

50% dilution claims protection to -7.5C

How does that work then?

It's probably a mixture of alcohol and water. The alcohol is probably
methanol, as that's the cheapest alcohol available.

A google for "methanol water mixture freezing point" shows that the
freezing point vs concentration graph is non-linear.


That's interesting.

As it happens I have filled with about 50% and I am sure that should
cover all likely scenarios in southern UK.

I want to Halfords out of necessity rather than choice. a "bonus"
feature of this stuff is that has a citrus stink. Will never buy it again.

On 23 Dec 2017 09:37:56 GMT, Bob Eager wrote:

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 08:22:02 +0000, Graeme wrote:

In message , Bob Eager
writes

Ditto. That 'Mamod' smell :-)

Well, yes. And I have one of those too.

I'll see your Mamod and raise you a Bowman loco.

Would be nice...

My " Uncle " Peter who was really my Godfather had the freight set
illustrated here
http://www.bowmancircle.co.uk/attach...e/cat%2013.jpg

Unfortunately my "Auntie" was one of those women who exhibited OCD
about how clean a house should be so after their marriage the set was
never fired up again. Their own son who was about 8 years older then
me was allowed to play with it in push along mode very occasionally
such as when we visited but a request to steam it was always denied.
Circa 1969 their son married and left home. Shortly after my
godparents came to stay for a short holiday and Auntie was quite
pleased to describe she had cleared out their sons things so she could
have sewing room.
I asked about he steam set and was told she had put out it with the
rubbish, the one saving grace was that the Dustman actually knocked on
the door and asked if there had been a mistake and if not could he
personally take it which he did .
I was pretty miffed at the time that she hadn't offered it to me but
although I didn't the know of the word then I certainly felt
schadenfreude as in a nearby town an antique shop had opened which had
a section specialising in models.
The look on Aunties face when she saw the prices being asked was a
picture, even in 69 I think it was north of £80 and possibly more.

ironically the rise of the www and ease of finding things in
salerooms and auction sites added to older generations dying and their
descendants finally realising that modern children will never be
interested or have room for their forebears collections and putting
them into circulation again has resulted in such models becoming
available for a lot less in value terms now if you really want one.

G.Harman

On 23 Dec 2017 11:27:29 GMT, Huge wrote:

I wonder what happened to my Mamod traction engine?

Perhaps it is the one I got given, mine leaks so much steam from the
cylinder it will steam up and run the flywheel free running but not
enough oomph to propel the wheel.

I see most of the spare parts are still available if I ever get bored.

AJH

On 22/12/2017 22:20, dennis@home wrote:
On 22/12/2017 21:01, DJC wrote:
On 22/12/17 14:34, ARW wrote:

De-icer these days only seems to work when it's above minus 1 deg
regardless of what it says on the tin.



During the recent cold spell I spayed de-icer on the windscreen, which
promptly froze making things worse. I wasn't below -2C.



That isn't surprising.
You melt the ice and that takes heat to do so.
That mostly comes from the glass so it gets colder and any remaining
water/fluid will freeze. If there is a lot of ice it will get so cold
the insides will condense and freeze.

Its simple physics and its the reason I don't have any de-icer but I do
have a scraper.

So why does it say "works at minus 15 deg" on the tin?



--
Adam

"ARW" wrote in message
news
On 22/12/2017 22:20, dennis@home wrote:
On 22/12/2017 21:01, DJC wrote:
On 22/12/17 14:34, ARW wrote:

De-icer these days only seems to work when it's above minus 1 deg
regardless of what it says on the tin.



During the recent cold spell I spayed de-icer on the windscreen, which
promptly froze making things worse. I wasn't below -2C.



That isn't surprising.
You melt the ice and that takes heat to do so.
That mostly comes from the glass so it gets colder and any remaining
water/fluid will freeze. If there is a lot of ice it will get so cold the
insides will condense and freeze.

Its simple physics and its the reason I don't have any de-icer but I do
have a scraper.

So why does it say "works at minus 15 deg" on the tin?

To get physics eejuts like you to buy some.

On Saturday, 23 December 2017 13:53:58 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 22/12/2017 22:20, dennis@home wrote:
On 22/12/2017 21:01, DJC wrote:
On 22/12/17 14:34, ARW wrote:

De-icer these days only seems to work when it's above minus 1 deg
regardless of what it says on the tin.



During the recent cold spell I spayed de-icer on the windscreen, which
promptly froze making things worse. I wasn't below -2C.



That isn't surprising.
You melt the ice and that takes heat to do so.
That mostly comes from the glass so it gets colder and any remaining
water/fluid will freeze. If there is a lot of ice it will get so cold
the insides will condense and freeze.

Its simple physics and its the reason I don't have any de-icer but I do
have a scraper.

So why does it say "works at minus 15 deg" on the tin?

Indeed, we've never come across products that fail to do what they claim have we, or only do so in a very specific set of circumstances, usually ones you're unlikely to encounter.


NT

In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 08:22:02 +0000, Graeme wrote:

I'll see your Mamod and raise you a Bowman loco.

Would be nice...

Live steam is really just a branch of my toy trains, but does include
one Bowman loco, a Mamod traction engine and two stationary engines, one
Bowman and one Mamod for Meccano. They all run, and there is nothing
else like that smell of burning meths and warm oil.
--
Graeme

In message ,
writes

snip tragic Auntie tale

ironically the rise of the www and ease of finding things in
salerooms and auction sites added to older generations dying and their
descendants finally realising that modern children will never be
interested or have room for their forebears collections and putting
them into circulation again has resulted in such models becoming
available for a lot less in value terms now if you really want one.

Agreed. Finding items now is far easier than it was even 10-15 years
ago. Sadly, on line sales, particularly eBay, have almost killed the
swapmeets and toy fairs, which were always fun. Now, it would be easy
to build an impressive collection without ever leaving home, which is
slightly sad. Other side of the coin though, it is much faster now, of
course, to share pictures and videos with friends, receive and request
help and parts etc., both nationally and internationally.

Yes, many prices have dropped too, the only exceptions being the
genuinely rare items, and/or those in excellent+ condition.
--
Graeme

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 18:30:27 +0000, Graeme
wrote:


I'll see your Mamod and raise you a Bowman loco.

Would be nice...

Live steam is really just a branch of my toy trains, but does include
one Bowman loco, a Mamod traction engine and two stationary engines, one
Bowman and one Mamod for Meccano. They all run, and there is nothing
else like that smell of burning meths and warm oil.

You missed out singed carpet. very quickly found the traction
engines propensity to bounce the spirit burner out and after that was
banished to the concrete yard outside.

G.Harman

On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 18:37:20 +0000, Graeme
wrote:



ironically the rise of the www and ease of finding things in
salerooms and auction sites
snip
has resulted in such models becoming
available for a lot less in value terms now if you really want one.

Agreed. Finding items now is far easier than it was even 10-15 years
ago.

I haven't been tempted too much with one exception
I did hanker when I was small for a model tube train and was told by
the man in the shop that EVER READY made one . He also said it wasn't
very good and was only made so they could sell lots of batteries.
My parents received this news with enthusiasm though in reality if
had said it ran like a Swiss watch there was no chance they would have
got one.
I got one a few years back and the man in the shop was right,
It's very basic.

details for the curious here
http://www.metromodels.net/eveready_train2.pdf

G.Harman

On Fri, 22 Dec 2017 22:32:16 +0000
Graeme wrote:

Ditto. That 'Mamod' smell :-)

Don't forget the burned skin smell, from that invisible flame.

In message ,
writes
On Sat, 23 Dec 2017 18:30:27 +0000, Graeme
wrote:

Live steam is really just a branch of my toy trains, but does include
one Bowman loco, a Mamod traction engine and two stationary engines, one
Bowman and one Mamod for Meccano. They all run, and there is nothing
else like that smell of burning meths and warm oil.

You missed out singed carpet. very quickly found the traction
engines propensity to bounce the spirit burner out and after that was
banished to the concrete yard outside.

I'm well trained (ha ha) and only ever run the traction engine on the
kitchen lino type floor.
--
Graeme

In message ,
writes

I did hanker when I was small for a model tube train and was told by
the man in the shop that EVER READY made one .

I do have an Ever Ready set although quite surprisingly, could not find
one on YouTube except this, which has a replacement motor bogie :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-0cv6AGh6A

--
Graeme