I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has no gas, and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back boiler driving some radiators for the rooms that don't have storage heaters. The house had economy 7 but the current supplier does not support it, though it still has a dual meter and teleswitch.
The back boiler needs a constant supply of wood which is proving onerous.
He needs a more controllable heat, he has an aging mother there too, and would like to be able to turn on the storage heaters when he needs them, which involves bypassing the teleswitch but i am not sure if the bricks in the storage heaters would delay any heat output, we are trying to do this as cheaply as possible.
We could replace the radiators with electric ones or remove the bricks from the storage heaters and bypass the teleswitch and use the same wiring?

Replace the back boiler with an electric boiler and more rads?
Any ideas for the cheapest option.

Thanks

"Steve Jones" wrote in message
...
I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has no
gas, and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back boiler
driving some radiators for the rooms that don't have storage heaters. The
house had economy 7 but the current supplier does not support it,

well that's a it dumb isn't it

given that you have a free choice in who supplied you

though it still has a dual meter and teleswitch.
The back boiler needs a constant supply of wood which is proving onerous.
He needs a more controllable heat, he has an aging mother there too, and
would like to be able to turn on the storage heaters when he needs them,
which involves bypassing the teleswitch but i am not sure if the bricks in
the storage heaters would delay any heat output, we are trying to do this
as cheaply as possible.

without buying a duel supply radiator tuning on the heaters during the day
will be very slow to react. But it will keep the heat output a bit more
constant.

We could replace the radiators with electric ones

will be very much more expensive to run

or would be if you were on the right tariff for the SRs

or remove the bricks from the storage heaters and

No don't do that. they are not designed to be used that way

bypass the teleswitch and use the same wiring?
Replace the back boiler with an electric boiler

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

On Monday, 20 November 2017 10:31:03 UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has no gas,
and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back boiler driving some
radiators for the rooms that don't have storage heaters. The house had economy
7 but the current supplier does not support it, though it still has a dual
meter and teleswitch.

The obvious answer is to get an E7 tariff and activate the storage heaters. Zero initial cost and moderate running cost.

You cannot "turn on storage heaters when you need them". They just sit there providing background heat. If you want a controllable storage heater then you need a fan-assisted one but they're bulkier and expensive.

Add storage heaters to rooms that don't have then as and when needed and can be afforded.

Anything else with have either a high initial cost (eg oil or LPG central heating) or high running cost (electric radiators).

But also check Energy Saving Trust website as there may be grants available for heating upgrade or more insulation.

Owain

On 20/11/17 10:31, Steve Jones wrote:
I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has no gas, and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back boiler driving some radiators for the rooms that don't have storage heaters. The house had economy 7 but the current supplier does not support it, though it still has a dual meter and teleswitch.
The back boiler needs a constant supply of wood which is proving onerous.
He needs a more controllable heat, he has an aging mother there too, and would like to be able to turn on the storage heaters when he needs them, which involves bypassing the teleswitch but i am not sure if the bricks in the storage heaters would delay any heat output, we are trying to do this as cheaply as possible.
We could replace the radiators with electric ones or remove the bricks from the storage heaters and bypass the teleswitch and use the same wiring?

Replace the back boiler with an electric boiler and more rads?
Any ideas for the cheapest option.


If the insulation is reasonable use an air source heat pump driving a
sealed wet radiator systrem, and have a mans pressure DHW tank with
immersion top up. (heat pumps cant do the temeperature)

You may need bigger rads as heatpumps tend to not deliver water much
over 40C




Thanks



--
Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog it's
too dark to read.

Groucho Marx

On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with all
the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of almost
any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

So one way would be to switch to a supplier with an Economy 7 tariff and
run the storage heaters as normal, then top up during the day using fan
heaters, oil filled radiators, whatever. Electric heaters for the rooms
without storage heaters - storage radiators would be good if easy to fit.

Immersion heater for the hot water.

Run the wood burner for pleasure when there is cheap wood available, and
get bonus hot water and radiators. Don't rely on it for the primary source
of heating.

Cheers


Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

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On 20/11/2017 13:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/11/17 10:31, Steve Jones wrote:
I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has
no gas, and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back
boiler driving some radiators for the rooms that don't have storage
heaters. The house had economy 7 but the current supplier does not
support it, though it still has a dual meter and teleswitch.
The back boiler needs a constant supply of wood which is proving onerous.
He needs a more controllable heat, he has an aging mother there too,
and would like to be able to turn on the storage heaters when he needs
them, which involves bypassing the teleswitch but i am not sure if the
bricks in the storage heaters would delay any heat output, we are
trying to do this as cheaply as possible.
We could replace the radiators with electric ones or remove the bricks
from the storage heaters and bypass the teleswitch and use the same
wiring?

Replace the back boiler with an electric boiler and more rads?
Any ideas for the cheapest option.


If the insulation is reasonable use an air source heat pump driving a
sealed wet radiator systrem, and have a mans pressure DHW tank with
immersion top up. (heat pumps cant do the temeperature)

You may need bigger rads as heatpumps tend to not deliver water much
over 40C


LG ThermaV range has a high temperature variant which will pump out up
to 16kW at 80degC for retrofitting into a conventional wet system. They
now have MCS approval meaning you can get a useful government grant
worth up to about £6k over 7 years.

The slight dissadvantage of the high temperature variant is a reduced
COP in the range 210% at -7 deg C outside ambient, to 260% at +7 degC
outside ambient.

On 20/11/17 15:13, Andy Bennet wrote:
On 20/11/2017 13:52, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 20/11/17 10:31, Steve Jones wrote:
I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has
no gas, and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back
boiler driving some radiators for the rooms that don't have storage
heaters. The house had economy 7 but the current supplier does not
support it, though it still has a dual meter and teleswitch.
The back boiler needs a constant supply of wood which is proving
onerous.
He needs a more controllable heat, he has an aging mother there too,
and would like to be able to turn on the storage heaters when he needs
them, which involves bypassing the teleswitch but i am not sure if the
bricks in the storage heaters would delay any heat output, we are
trying to do this as cheaply as possible.
We could replace the radiators with electric ones or remove the bricks
from the storage heaters and bypass the teleswitch and use the same
wiring?

Replace the back boiler with an electric boiler and more rads?
Any ideas for the cheapest option.


If the insulation is reasonable use an air source heat pump driving a
sealed wet radiator systrem, and have a mans pressure DHW tank with
immersion top up. (heat pumps cant do the temeperature)

You may need bigger rads as heatpumps tend to not deliver water much
over 40C


LG ThermaV range has a high temperature variant which will pump out up
to 16kW at 80degC for retrofitting into a conventional wet system. They
now have MCS approval meaning you can get a useful government grant
worth up to about £6k over 7 years.

The slight dissadvantage of the high temperature variant is a reduced
COP in the range 210% at -7 deg C outside ambient, to 260% at +7 degC
outside ambient.

That looks very interesting actually. I didnt know that



--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 20/11/2017 10:31, Steve Jones wrote:

I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has
no gas, and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back
boiler driving some radiators for the rooms that don't have storage
heaters. The house had economy 7 but the current supplier does not
support it, though it still has a dual meter and teleswitch.

So he will need to change suppliers to one that does - using peek rate
when he does not have to will be significantly more expensive.

The back
boiler needs a constant supply of wood which is proving onerous. He
needs a more controllable heat, he has an aging mother there too, and
would like to be able to turn on the storage heaters when he needs
them, which involves bypassing the teleswitch but i am not sure if
the bricks in the storage heaters would delay any heat output, we are
trying to do this as cheaply as possible. We could replace the
radiators with electric ones or remove the bricks from the storage
heaters and bypass the teleswitch and use the same wiring?

Without storage heaters that are specifically designed for dual supplies
and to provide top up heat that is not going to work.

Replace the back boiler with an electric boiler and more rads? Any
ideas for the cheapest option.

Options would be some split unit aircon / heatpump units - they cost
about a third of the price to run from peak rate electricity.

Alternatively fit a large thermal store that can be heated via cheap
rate immersion heaters, and run the radiators off that. (you could also
arrange to connect the wood burner back boiler to that as well, so it
could top it up when you do run it)



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Monday, 20 November 2017 14:40:47 UTC, David WE Roberts (Google) wrote:

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with all
the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

It depends what you get. Logs command a premium, but scrap wood is still free. The problem with wood is the amount of labour involved, but if you're chronically unemployed there's usually free wood available in most places.


NT

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with all
the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of almost
any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 18:32:18 +0000, tim... wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with
all the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of
almost any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

Good point; costs vary a lot over the decades.

From Which? - note the use of "gas even for oil."

"Annual cost of LPG The average annual cost for heating and hot water
using LPG in the UK is £780* when consuming around 12,000 kWh of gas a
year.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/lpg-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of heating oil The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using heating oil in the UK is £466*, when consuming around 12,000
kWh of gas a year. £466 Average annual cost of heating and hot water
using heating oil.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/oil-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of electricity The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using electricity in the UK is £2,456 when consuming around 13,100
kWh a year*. This cost is just a guide to help you compare costs of
different types of fuel. There are a number of factors that affect energy
bills, including the age of a house and insulation, the efficiency of a
hot water and heating system, and where you are in the UK. £2,456 The
annual cost of heating and hot water using electricity

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/electric-central-heating - Which?"

OUCH! Interesting that oil is so much cheaper than gas at the moment. It
throws your point back, I suppose. Why would anyone install LPG when oil
is nearly half the price?

I wonder if oil and LPG prices don't track each other?

Revised answer - install an oil boiler and get payback in just a few years?

Interestingly

"Annual average cost of gas The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using gas in the UK is £548 when consuming around 12,000 kWh a
year*. Remember, this cost is just a guide to help you compare costs of
different types of fuel. There are a number of factors that affect energy
bills, including the age of your home and insulation, the efficiency of a
hot water and heating system, and where you are in the UK. £548 The annual
cost of heating and hot water using gas.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/gas-central-heating - Which?"


Gurgle. This suggest that (if the figures are correct) that is currently
cheaper to heat your home and hot water with oil than with mains gas.
Which then prompts the question "why would anyone buy a gas boiler when
oil is cheaper?". Yes, convenience and less price volatility, and no
issues over storage, but still.....

Cheers



Dave R


--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

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On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 18:32:18 +0000, tim... wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with
all the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of
almost any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

Just fond this!
https://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.u...ic-fuels/fuel-
prices
my answer now is get a multi-fuel grate for the wood burner and burn coal
- by far the cheapest fuel.

[Perhaps someone should tell the power generators.] ;-)

Cheers


Dave R



--
AMD FX-6300 in GA-990X-Gaming SLI-CF running Windows 7 Pro x64

---
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David wrote:

On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 18:32:18 +0000, tim... wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with
all the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of
almost any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

Good point; costs vary a lot over the decades.

From Which? - note the use of "gas even for oil."

"Annual cost of LPG The average annual cost for heating and hot water
using LPG in the UK is £780* when consuming around 12,000 kWh of gas a
year.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/lpg-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of heating oil The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using heating oil in the UK is £466*, when consuming around 12,000
kWh of gas a year. £466 Average annual cost of heating and hot water
using heating oil.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/oil-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of electricity The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using electricity in the UK is £2,456 when consuming around 13,100
kWh a year*. This cost is just a guide to help you compare costs of
different types of fuel. There are a number of factors that affect energy
bills, including the age of a house and insulation, the efficiency of a
hot water and heating system, and where you are in the UK. £2,456 The
annual cost of heating and hot water using electricity

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/electric-central-heating - Which?"

OUCH! Interesting that oil is so much cheaper than gas at the moment. It
throws your point back, I suppose. Why would anyone install LPG when oil
is nearly half the price?

I wonder if oil and LPG prices don't track each other?

Revised answer - install an oil boiler and get payback in just a few years?

Interestingly

"Annual average cost of gas The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using gas in the UK is £548 when consuming around 12,000 kWh a
year*. Remember, this cost is just a guide to help you compare costs of
different types of fuel. There are a number of factors that affect energy
bills, including the age of your home and insulation, the efficiency of a
hot water and heating system, and where you are in the UK. £548 The annual
cost of heating and hot water using gas.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/gas-central-heating - Which?"


Gurgle. This suggest that (if the figures are correct) that is currently
cheaper to heat your home and hot water with oil than with mains gas.
Which then prompts the question "why would anyone buy a gas boiler when
oil is cheaper?". Yes, convenience and less price volatility, and no
issues over storage, but still.....

Cheers

Oil cost great deal more a few years ago. And oil boilers cost about
twice as much as mains gas boiler.

--

Roger Hayter

On 20/11/2017 22:02, Roger Hayter wrote:
David wrote:

On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 18:32:18 +0000, tim... wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with
all the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of
almost any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

Good point; costs vary a lot over the decades.

From Which? - note the use of "gas even for oil."

"Annual cost of LPG The average annual cost for heating and hot water
using LPG in the UK is £780* when consuming around 12,000 kWh of gas a
year.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/lpg-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of heating oil The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using heating oil in the UK is £466*, when consuming around 12,000
kWh of gas a year. £466 Average annual cost of heating and hot water
using heating oil.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/oil-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of electricity The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using electricity in the UK is £2,456 when consuming around 13,100
kWh a year*. This cost is just a guide to help you compare costs of
different types of fuel. There are a number of factors that affect energy
bills, including the age of a house and insulation, the efficiency of a
hot water and heating system, and where you are in the UK. £2,456 The
annual cost of heating and hot water using electricity

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/electric-central-heating - Which?"

OUCH! Interesting that oil is so much cheaper than gas at the moment. It
throws your point back, I suppose. Why would anyone install LPG when oil
is nearly half the price?

I wonder if oil and LPG prices don't track each other?

Revised answer - install an oil boiler and get payback in just a few years?

Interestingly

"Annual average cost of gas The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using gas in the UK is £548 when consuming around 12,000 kWh a
year*. Remember, this cost is just a guide to help you compare costs of
different types of fuel. There are a number of factors that affect energy
bills, including the age of your home and insulation, the efficiency of a
hot water and heating system, and where you are in the UK. £548 The annual
cost of heating and hot water using gas.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/gas-central-heating - Which?"


Gurgle. This suggest that (if the figures are correct) that is currently
cheaper to heat your home and hot water with oil than with mains gas.
Which then prompts the question "why would anyone buy a gas boiler when
oil is cheaper?". Yes, convenience and less price volatility, and no
issues over storage, but still.....

Cheers

Oil cost great deal more a few years ago. And oil boilers cost about
twice as much as mains gas boiler.

And might the tank need replacing?

On 20 Nov 2017 20:07:18 GMT, David wrote:



Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with
all the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of
almost any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

Just fond this!
https://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.u...ic-fuels/fuel-
prices
my answer now is get a multi-fuel grate for the wood burner and burn coal
- by far the cheapest fuel.



Even burning an anthracite based smokeless fuel that is more expensive
than plain coal we find it is much cheaper than electric and our
Winter electric bill is considerably less than the summer one.
The stove heats the domestic water during the winter months where as
in the warmer months it is an immersion heater is used.
And often a stew or other meal is cooked on it and a kettle is kept
warm at the side ready to be heated up to temperature on the top so
that is some more electric not used.
No mains gas here so changing to oil or stored gas would involve a
reasonably outlay.
I also like the simplicity of the gravity HW system and dump radiator
as if the electric fails it still works.
Always buy the solid fuel ahead in the middle of Summer as our coal
merchant discounts quite considerably.
Did try some plain Kellingly coal a couple of years back delivered on
a pallet from a merchant near the colliery but although we are far
from smokeless zones it did stink outside a bit much to be acceptable
and the ash disposal was a lot greater.

For the odd fire on a cool "summer" evening free wood gathered around
while out walking is used, tend to have enough that it is seasoned
for a least 2 years before use . The pile had got large enough that we
did not start on the purchased solid fuel till about a week ago.

G.Harman

On 20/11/2017 14:40, David wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Has that ever been true even in the dim and distant days of white heat
of technology "electricity too cheap to meter" ? My recollection of
electric storage heaters (my parents were early adopters) were insanely
ugly boxes that got mad hot in the middle of the night and lost their
heat during the day when no-one was home and provided precious little
useful heat in the evening thus ensuring the expensive electric fire and
fan heater got run as well. They were basically a waste of space. The
firebricks came in handy for making a small kiln after we scrapped them.

Blocks of flats designed for all electric heating with a brick core in
the centre of each flat and under floor heating seemed to work but were
still pretty expensive to keep warm in winter.

Mains electric can only really win if you combine it with ground source
heat pump technology (and even then when all the mechanical maintenance
is included it is pretty borderline).

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with all
the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of almost
any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

It might perhaps be cheaper than bottled gas (particularly if you only
keep one room in the house warm) but I doubt if it will beat oil now for
an equivalent amount of energy delivered. If you compare like for like
then I think the order is :

Mains gas
(big gap)
Oil
Bottled Gas
Coal
(big gap)
Electricity

The position of wood burner depends on whether you are burning scrap
wood or kiln dried splinter free designer logs. Either way it is bit of
a faff smashing stuff up to burn almost every day.

Our village hall is entirely electric and costs the earth to keep warm
in winter. If there was any way to heat it some other way we would do.

So one way would be to switch to a supplier with an Economy 7 tariff and
run the storage heaters as normal, then top up during the day using fan
heaters, oil filled radiators, whatever. Electric heaters for the rooms
without storage heaters - storage radiators would be good if easy to fit.

Immersion heater for the hot water.

Run the wood burner for pleasure when there is cheap wood available, and
get bonus hot water and radiators. Don't rely on it for the primary source
of heating.

Or get an oil boiler installed to power the existing radiators.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Monday, 20 November 2017 10:31:03 UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
I have a friend who has asked me advice on his heating. The house has no gas, and has a mixture of storage heating and a wood burner back boiler driving some radiators for the rooms that don't have storage heaters. The house had economy 7 but the current supplier does not support it, though it still has a dual meter and teleswitch.
The back boiler needs a constant supply of wood which is proving onerous.
He needs a more controllable heat, he has an aging mother there too, and would like to be able to turn on the storage heaters when he needs them, which involves bypassing the teleswitch but i am not sure if the bricks in the storage heaters would delay any heat output, we are trying to do this as cheaply as possible.
We could replace the radiators with electric ones or remove the bricks from the storage heaters and bypass the teleswitch and use the same wiring?

Replace the back boiler with an electric boiler and more rads?
Any ideas for the cheapest option.

Thanks

(1) Change electricity supplier.
(2) Move house to somewhere easier to manage/more convenient.
This will probably be forced on her quite soon in any event.

Anything else will very costly to implement.

Thanks for all the comments, I will have a talk to him
Steve

On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 9:30:30 AM UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
Thanks for all the comments, I will have a talk to him
Steve

Any thoughts on a suitable heat store?

On 21/11/2017 09:32, Steve Jones wrote:
On Tuesday, November 21, 2017 at 9:30:30 AM UTC, Steve Jones wrote:
Thanks for all the comments, I will have a talk to him
Steve

Any thoughts on a suitable heat store?

Depends on if you want to roll your own or buy something ready to use.

Advance, Grant, and McDonnald (and many others) all have off the shelf
products. Some are fairly pricey though! (many of the off the shelf
systems are also setup to allow contributions from solar coils, and to
also feed the domestic hot water as well as the rads.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 18:32:18 +0000, tim... wrote:

"David" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with
all the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of
almost any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

Good point; costs vary a lot over the decades.

From Which? - note the use of "gas even for oil."

"Annual cost of LPG The average annual cost for heating and hot water
using LPG in the UK is £780* when consuming around 12,000 kWh of gas a
year.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/lpg-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of heating oil The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using heating oil in the UK is £466*, when consuming around 12,000
kWh of gas a year. £466 Average annual cost of heating and hot water
using heating oil.

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/oil-central-heating - Which?"

"Annual cost of electricity The average annual cost for heating and hot
water using electricity in the UK is £2,456 when consuming around 13,100
kWh a year*. This cost is just a guide to help you compare costs of
different types of fuel. There are a number of factors that affect energy
bills, including the age of a house and insulation, the efficiency of a
hot water and heating system, and where you are in the UK. £2,456 The
annual cost of heating and hot water using electricity

Read mo https://www.which.co.uk/reviews/home...stems/article/
home-heating-systems/electric-central-heating - Which?"

OUCH! Interesting that oil is so much cheaper than gas at the moment. It
throws your point back, I suppose. Why would anyone install LPG when oil
is nearly half the price?


I'm assuming that installing an oil heating boiler (and oil storage tank) is
more difficult that an LPG gas boiler and storage shed for the "bottles".

but perhaps LPG when used as a CH fuel isn't delivered in bottles

tim

wrote in message
...
On 20 Nov 2017 20:07:18 GMT, David wrote:



Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Bulk gas or oil or solid fuel.

Bottled gas.

Wood is a bit of a funny one because it used to be dirt cheap but with
all the trendy wood burners it is now very expensive in most areas.

If the list above is reasonably accurate then electric heating (of
almost any sort) would be cheaper than bottled gas.

I think you have oil in the wrong place

no-one would ever install an oil CH system if electric were cheaper

what would be the point?

tim

Just fond this!
https://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.u...ic-fuels/fuel-
prices
my answer now is get a multi-fuel grate for the wood burner and burn coal
- by far the cheapest fuel.



Even burning an anthracite based smokeless fuel that is more expensive
than plain coal we find it is much cheaper than electric and our
Winter electric bill is considerably less than the summer one.

though unless things have changed

solid fuel boilers lack the automated control of liquid/gas fuels

tim

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 11:18:42 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



Just fond this!
https://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.u...ic-fuels/fuel-
prices
my answer now is get a multi-fuel grate for the wood burner and burn coal
- by far the cheapest fuel.



Even burning an anthracite based smokeless fuel that is more expensive
than plain coal we find it is much cheaper than electric and our
Winter electric bill is considerably less than the summer one.

though unless things have changed

solid fuel boilers lack the automated control of liquid/gas fuels

tim



I don't know enough about them to comment how reliable they are in
service but were there not hopper feed boilers available at one time,
possibly still are. Need a fine fuel sold as beans, and wood
chip/pellets are a solid fuel at the end of the day even though they
may be wrapped in up in some eco description such as Biomass and full
automatic boilers are advertised for that.
But I would not dispute that once you start into needing reliable
automatic fuel feed systems and ash removal the costs would rise
considerably and liquid/gas appliances will be easier to maintain and
nor ash to dispose of either.
My reasons for having a simple system hinge on what is an other wise
all electric house means relying on no damage to the overhead lines ,
rare but some parts around here were off for 3 days about 2 years ago.
And I'm able to be around to run the multifuel stove as appropriate
which would not be practical for many people who go out to work or
like some nearish neighbours who having seen our stove started to
think about installing one in a covered over fire place, I discouraged
them as being a decade and a half older neither are really up to the
manual work required anymore, a point we may well reach ourselves in
time of course but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

There is also enough reason I like it as running a stove/fire is just
enjoyable and satisfying.

G.Harman

wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 11:18:42 -0000, "tim..."
wrote:



Just fond this!
https://www.confusedaboutenergy.co.u...ic-fuels/fuel-
prices
my answer now is get a multi-fuel grate for the wood burner and burn coal
- by far the cheapest fuel.



Even burning an anthracite based smokeless fuel that is more expensive
than plain coal we find it is much cheaper than electric and our
Winter electric bill is considerably less than the summer one.

though unless things have changed

solid fuel boilers lack the automated control of liquid/gas fuels

tim



I don't know enough about them to comment how reliable they are in
service but were there not hopper feed boilers available at one time,
possibly still are. Need a fine fuel sold as beans, and wood
chip/pellets are a solid fuel at the end of the day even though they
may be wrapped in up in some eco description such as Biomass and full
automatic boilers are advertised for that.
But I would not dispute that once you start into needing reliable
automatic fuel feed systems and ash removal the costs would rise
considerably and liquid/gas appliances will be easier to maintain and
nor ash to dispose of either.
My reasons for having a simple system hinge on what is an other wise
all electric house means relying on no damage to the overhead lines ,
rare but some parts around here were off for 3 days about 2 years ago.
And I'm able to be around to run the multifuel stove as appropriate
which would not be practical for many people who go out to work or
like some nearish neighbours who having seen our stove started to
think about installing one in a covered over fire place, I discouraged
them as being a decade and a half older neither are really up to the
manual work required anymore, a point we may well reach ourselves in
time of course but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

There is also enough reason I like it as running a stove/fire is just
enjoyable and satisfying.

G.Harman

Despite the alleged strategic value in covering most of North Wales with
conifers, the only commercial use of locally produced timber seems to be
firewood, and there is much publicised lobby to set a wood chip industry
for wood fired boilers of all sizes from domestic to power stations.
Very little actual commercially available hardware seems to have
materialised, especially at the domestic end of the market.



--

Roger Hayter

On 21/11/2017 08:08, Martin Brown wrote:
On 20/11/2017 14:40, David wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 10:38:53 +0000, tim... wrote:

snip

can you not get bottled gas or oil?

tim

Back in the day IIRC the cost for energy used to be (cheapest first):

Mains gas.

Mains electric.

Has that ever been true even in the dim and distant days of white heat
of technology "electricity too cheap to meter" ? My recollection of
electric storage heaters (my parents were early adopters) were insanely
ugly boxes that got mad hot in the middle of the night and lost their
heat during the day when no-one was home and provided precious little
useful heat in the evening thus ensuring the expensive electric fire and
fan heater got run as well. They were basically a waste of space. The
firebricks came in handy for making a small kiln after we scrapped them.

The flat I lived in before had a (single) storage heater for the general
living area and it worked OK. It looked quite old and probably dated
from when the flats were built (probably late 80s). It had a slider on
the top that allowed more hot air to come out, but by the time you might
have needed it there wouldn't be much heat left in the core. There was
an instant heat circuit to provide heat if it ran out of heat in the
evening, though I very rarely needed it. I learnt to check the weather
for the following day and adjust the heat input accordingly. I didn't
bother to heat the rest of the flat (bathroom and bedroom) and closed
the communicating door to concentrate heat in the living area as required.

The (Economy 7) electricity bill was £700 a year (in 2015), including an
off-peak immersion heater for hot water and instant electric shower.

--
Max Demian

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:00:57 +0000, (Roger Hayter)
though unless things have changed

solid fuel boilers lack the automated control of liquid/gas fuels

tim



I don't know enough about them to comment how reliable they are in
service but were there not hopper feed boilers available at one time,
possibly still are. Need a fine fuel sold as beans, and wood
chip/pellets are a solid fuel at the end of the day even though they
may be wrapped in up in some eco description such as Biomass and full
automatic boilers are advertised for that.


Despite the alleged strategic value in covering most of North Wales with
conifers, the only commercial use of locally produced timber seems to be
firewood, and there is much publicised lobby to set a wood chip industry
for wood fired boilers of all sizes from domestic to power stations.
Very little actual commercially available hardware seems to have
materialised, especially at the domestic end of the market.

Well there is domestic and domestic
I've seen some being demonstrated at Agricultural shows but what may
domestic to a land owner with possibly access to forestry will not be
quite the same as somebody living in a semi detached in Surburban
areas.
The former compared to the latter must be quite small so its
understandable that at the moment it is quite a niche market.
One firm I saw at a show seems to have domestic sized ones but
looking at the Domestic properties section under case studies on their
web page does show a leaning to the type of dwelling featured on
"Homes in the Country".
http://www.windhager.co.uk/

No costings I can see though which usually means Costa a Lot.

OTOH you could the same about an Agra cookers though and look how they
spread from where their use could be practical to where they became a
lifestyle accessory despite the high cost.

I also notice the firm appears to be keen to associate itself with the
green eco brigade,not sure that is a good idea as it means they may be
limiting themselves to that market and putting many others off , and
real eco warriors will be living in a yurt and burning damp sticks.

G.Harman

wrote:

On Tue, 21 Nov 2017 13:00:57 +0000, (Roger Hayter)
though unless things have changed

solid fuel boilers lack the automated control of liquid/gas fuels

tim



I don't know enough about them to comment how reliable they are in
service but were there not hopper feed boilers available at one time,
possibly still are. Need a fine fuel sold as beans, and wood
chip/pellets are a solid fuel at the end of the day even though they
may be wrapped in up in some eco description such as Biomass and full
automatic boilers are advertised for that.


Despite the alleged strategic value in covering most of North Wales with
conifers, the only commercial use of locally produced timber seems to be
firewood, and there is much publicised lobby to set a wood chip industry
for wood fired boilers of all sizes from domestic to power stations.
Very little actual commercially available hardware seems to have
materialised, especially at the domestic end of the market.

Well there is domestic and domestic
I've seen some being demonstrated at Agricultural shows but what may
domestic to a land owner with possibly access to forestry will not be
quite the same as somebody living in a semi detached in Surburban
areas.
The former compared to the latter must be quite small so its
understandable that at the moment it is quite a niche market.
One firm I saw at a show seems to have domestic sized ones but
looking at the Domestic properties section under case studies on their
web page does show a leaning to the type of dwelling featured on
"Homes in the Country".
http://www.windhager.co.uk/

No costings I can see though which usually means Costa a Lot.

OTOH you could the same about an Agra cookers though and look how they
spread from where their use could be practical to where they became a
lifestyle accessory despite the high cost.

I also notice the firm appears to be keen to associate itself with the
green eco brigade,not sure that is a good idea as it means they may be
limiting themselves to that market and putting many others off , and
real eco warriors will be living in a yurt and burning damp sticks.

G.Harman

So well below the market penetration that would make distribution or
stove sales anything like competitive. I would have thought the green
brigade, being basically pastoralist (or whatever is the animal free
version) fascists with luddite and anti-scientific tendencies, would be
somewhat suspicious of the rather high tech machines needed to handle
wood chip.

--

Roger Hayter

On 21/11/2017 15:27, Roger Hayter wrote:
wrote:

I also notice the firm appears to be keen to associate itself with the
green eco brigade,not sure that is a good idea as it means they may be
limiting themselves to that market and putting many others off , and
real eco warriors will be living in a yurt and burning damp sticks.

So well below the market penetration that would make distribution or
stove sales anything like competitive. I would have thought the green
brigade, being basically pastoralist (or whatever is the animal free
version) fascists with luddite and anti-scientific tendencies, would be
somewhat suspicious of the rather high tech machines needed to handle
wood chip.

One of my friends from university looked seriously at getting an auger
based wood chip burning hopper based system (ISTR Austrian maker) but
was put off by the huge volume and high costs. It became clear that
after super insulating his house a tiny wood burning stove could easily
do the job. It has sophisticated heat exchangers on the air inlets and
vents and an array of very high tech features. It amuses me no end that
his base electricity load is responsible for all the waste heat that
keeps his house warm (ie several powerful computers on 24/7).

It might have been these (or a very similar model)
http://www.rika.at/en/rika/

Similar ones but more industrial
http://www.firebird.ie/images/Downlo...Brochure_1.pdf

ISTR thanks to NI government incompetence their farmers are heating
barns with them to claim subsidies that exceed the cost of the fuel!

http://www.irishnews.com/news/2016/1...ution--757584/

--
Regards,
Martin Brown