....or floor tiles, maybe?

On Tuesday, 14 November 2017 09:41:24 UTC, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use
that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure you go
no deeper than the plank.

I'd have preferred it if you hadn't chucked in that "fairly"! Yes, this
does seem the way to do it, except that my only circular saw is a massive
and unwieldy beast of a thing and not exactly a precision instrument any
more, so I'm thinking of acquiring a small plunge saw purely for this job.
There seem to be several reasonable-looking budget models around, such as
the 18V cordless Bakita:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cordless-Li...i+circular+saw

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/ya3cmtj8 )

I realise of course that you get what you pay for, but for an immediate
one-off task (and only the very occasional job (if that) in the future) it
seems OK to me to go for something like that. As long as the depth gauge is
reliable...

You can have an ok real circular saw for that much, Aldi or machine mart.


NT

NT wrote:

You can have an ok real circular saw for that much, Aldi or machine mart.

Sure, but the smallness and manoeuverability of a battery plunge saw appeals
to me for this particular job.

On 14/11/2017 23:35, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

When you have a void under a join in the board, you end up with the
full weight of the person standing on it being supported on a third of
the thickness of the board (i.e. the bottom part of the groove, or the
tongue), so its quite easy to break something - especially as most are
MDF backed and that is quite weak in tension across its layers)

Which means presumably that a new board in the same position would
sooner or later go the same way.

Unless you pack the void so that the replacement board is better supported.

Most of the laminate floor instructions will include details of the
maximum level of unevenness they will tolerate

I've been wondering about installing a new floor surface on top of the
laminate in the kitchen area (it's only a small corner section of an
open plan bungalow) - perhaps laminate again but with the planks running
at ninety degrees to the ones there now.

Its one option, but it strikes me as a bit of a bodge! ;-)

There are multiple snags though: the existing floor doesn't lay dead
flat, there would be two exposed edges ripe for tripping over and it
would be necessary to somehow fix down the new flooring so that it
doesn't move. But it should certainly solve the present problem.

Its not too difficult to lose half an inch or so of height difference at
a threshold I found. I had a similar problem when I fitted and
engineered wood floor and needed to match the different level into the
room. I made up a custom threshold strip to do it:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...oor_-_retrofit

And another thought that's just struck me: remove the existing laminate
in the kitchen and replace it with new flooring planks of the same
thickness, at ninety degrees. If I could arrange suitable junction
strips of some sort that might work, though I suspect that the different
expansion tendencies could well be a problem.

What is the subfloor made from? Also why is it so uneven?

If it were a solid floor, then a coat of self levelling compound would
do the trick nicely before relaying whatever finish on to.

If its a susspended floor, could you fix it just by identifying the bad
bits and adding packers between the joists and the floor boards?

--
Cheers,

John.

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On 15/11/2017 00:10, Bert Coules wrote:

...or floor tiles, maybe?

You need something basically flat before you start if going that route.


--
Cheers,

John.

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John Rumm wrote:

Its one option, but it strikes me as a bit of a bodge! ;-)

Yes, me too. But I appreciate your thoughts about making a custom
threshold.

What is the subfloor made from?

Conventional t&g floorboards on joists.

Also why is it so uneven?

A good question; I don't know. (But is it? See below...)

...could you fix it just by identifying the bad bits and adding packers
between the joists
and the floor boards?

Very likely, if it weren't for the unfortunate fact that the underfloor
heating is in the way. A bit of a complication, that. Actually, I suppose
it's possible that the unevenness is a problem with the moulded pipe housing
rather than the floorboards: if I succeed in removing the damaged plank
without flooding the kitchen I'll be able to see.

Thanks for your thoughts.

John Rumm wrote:

You need something basically flat before
you start if going that route.

Good point, thanks.

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 14/11/2017 23:35, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:
What is the subfloor made from? Also why is it so uneven?

If it were a solid floor, then a coat of self levelling compound would
do the trick nicely before relaying whatever finish on to.

If its a susspended floor, could you fix it just by identifying the bad
bits and adding packers between the joists and the floor boards?

We don't yet know if the underfloor heating pipes are retained in EPS
with no overboarding other than the laminate. Bert might be able to
discover this by looking elsewhere. Threshold strip?

This sort of stuff.
http://www.thefloorheatingwarehouse....OW-Underloor-H
eating-Overlay-System---18mm-Panels.html


--
Tim Lamb

In message , Bert
Coules writes
NT wrote:

You can have an ok real circular saw for that much, Aldi or machine mart.

Sure, but the smallness and manoeuverability of a battery plunge saw
appeals to me for this particular job.

Umm.. Is there no way of discovering the floor make up without damage?
If you dig around the floor heating suppliers for advice, I doubt you
will find any recommendation for click laminate directly on the
insulation systems.

There are other stronger systems which you may have.



--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

We don't yet know if the underfloor heating pipes are retained in EPS with
no overboarding other than the laminate. Bert might be able to discover
this by looking elsewhere. Threshold strip?

The system used is by Maincor:

http://www.maincor.co.uk/underfloor-...overboard-ufh/

As far as I recall, all that's between the moulded boards which hold the
pipework and the laminate is a fairly thin underlay (a type recommended by
the laminate supplier).

Tim Lamb wrote:

Umm.. Is there no way of discovering the floor make up without damage?

But one plank is already damaged and will (presumably) have to come out and
be replaced. Apart from drilling though it and injecting something to fill
the gap (which obviously won't be effective if it's the underlying
structure that's dropping) I can't think of any way of examining and
hopefully fixing the problem without destroying at least one plank.

In message , Bert
Coules writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

Umm.. Is there no way of discovering the floor make up without damage?

But one plank is already damaged and will (presumably) have to come out
and be replaced. Apart from drilling though it and injecting something
to fill the gap (which obviously won't be effective if it's the
underlying structure that's dropping) I can't think of any way of
examining and hopefully fixing the problem without destroying at least
one plank.

OK Bert. I've caught up:-)

Assuming they didn't run pipes under the kitchen units, you will have a
return board where you stand to do the washing up. These look to be less
supportive than the straight runs.

You could find the pipes by use of an infra red thermometer. It might be
better to inject a cement slurry rather than an expanding foam.

--
Tim Lamb

Well, that didn't last long. My new (and admittedly, budget) plunge saw
arrived and seemed perfectly well made and robust. I charged the battery
and tried a few test cuts on scrap to get the feel of the tool, then with a
deep breath decided to tackle the broken plank.

I almost finished one complete lengthwise cut when the saw stopped: it
didn't have enough power to get through the laminate. The battery indicator
wasn't at empty but neither was it at full, so I charged it again. The next
cut managed about three inches before the saw stopped for a second time.

Back to the charger. The charging light flashed once and then remained
resolutely off. So - a faulty Lithium-ion battery? Whether that's it or
not, it has to go back.

I suppose "buy locally" is the moral.

On 16/11/17 15:50, Bert Coules wrote:
Well, that didn't last long.Â* My new (and admittedly, budget) plunge saw
arrived and seemed perfectly well made and robust.Â* I charged the
battery and tried a few test cuts on scrap to get the feel of the tool,
then with a deep breath decided to tackle the broken plank.

I almost finished one complete lengthwise cut when the saw stopped: it
didn't have enough power to get through the laminate.Â* The battery
indicator wasn't at empty but neither was it at full, so I charged it
again.Â* The next cut managed about three inches before the saw stopped
for a second time.

Back to the charger.Â* The charging light flashed once and then remained
resolutely off.Â* So - a faulty Lithium-ion battery?Â* Whether that's it
or not, it has to go back.

I suppose "buy locally" is the moral.


over temperature cutout?


--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

over temperature cutout?

Thanks for the thought. I did try again after a lengthy interval and the
charging light did come back on. But when the charger showed the battery as
completely full, the battery's own indicator didn't. And again I only got a
minute of so of use before the tool died again.

Currently, after another (cooling down?) period the battery is charging
again. It will be interesting to see what happens this time.

Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...%20removed.jpg

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )

My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the pipes
might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that the
pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the bottom of
the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout isn't as
straightforward as I would have thought.

The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the one
which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged edge. And
bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I see no reason
why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was happening.

More investigation tomorrow...

On 16/11/2017 18:55, Bert Coules wrote:
Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...%20removed.jpg

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )

My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the
pipes might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that
the pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the
bottom of the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout
isn't as straightforward as I would have thought.

The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the
one which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged
edge. And bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I
see no reason why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was
happening.

More investigation tomorrow...

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

If you get a long straight edge, you should be able to see if there is a
low spot somewhere there.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

Yes, thanks, that's the first thing to try tomorrow, I think. Though a
slightly half-hearted bit of foot-pressure on the exposed UFH system (I'm
still a bit wary of damaging those pipes) didn't move it downwards at all,
so quite where the plank went to when it moved remains a bit of a mystery.
Perhaps I just need to be bolder.

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 16/11/2017 18:55, Bert Coules wrote:
Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...%20removed.jpg

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )

My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the
pipes might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that
the pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the
bottom of the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout
isn't as straightforward as I would have thought.

The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the
one which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged
edge. And bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I
see no reason why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was
happening.

More investigation tomorrow...

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

If you get a long straight edge, you should be able to see if there is
a low spot somewhere there.

If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has
less support there because it coincides with a pipe run.
Now you have it exposed, I wonder if some sheet aluminium could be
inserted as additional support.


--
Tim Lamb

On 16/11/2017 23:16, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force
applied...

Yes, thanks, that's the first thing to try tomorrow, I think. Though a
slightly half-hearted bit of foot-pressure on the exposed UFH system
(I'm still a bit wary of damaging those pipes) didn't move it downwards
at all, so quite where the plank went to when it moved remains a bit of
a mystery. Perhaps I just need to be bolder.

Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH panels,
or under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force
applied...

In fact I wasn't testing the right area. The board that shifted wasn't
damaged at all: it's the adjacent board. Though its tongue appeared intact,
one length of it is completely separated: it's held in place by the
still-attached tongue either side of it which is why I didn't immediately
notice it.

So a second plank has to come up, I think - a rather less daunting process
now I've dome a previous one.

Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH panels, or
under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.

Another discovery this morning: there's no deflection at all in the UFH
panel but one area of the flooring isn't laying flat against it. With the
t&g intact it wasn't particularly noticeable but once one plank was freed to
move independently downwards it became immediately apparent.

I wonder if laminate laid over UFH needs more expansion room than the norm?
If that's the case, and if the fitters didn't leave enough space against the
walls, then the problem becomes a bigger one, given that the L-shaped
kitchen units are masking all the edges.

Tim Lamb wrote:

If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has less
support there because it coincides with a pipe run.

Actually it was the right hand edge. But see my post a minute or so ago in
answer to John Rumm for more details.

On 18/11/2017 11:49, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force
applied...

In fact I wasn't testing the right area. The board that shifted wasn't
damaged at all: it's the adjacent board. Though its tongue appeared
intact, one length of it is completely separated: it's held in place by
the still-attached tongue either side of it which is why I didn't
immediately notice it.

I had a feeling that might be the case...

So a second plank has to come up, I think - a rather less daunting
process now I've dome a previous one.

Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH
panels, or under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.

Another discovery this morning: there's no deflection at all in the UFH
panel but one area of the flooring isn't laying flat against it. With
the t&g intact it wasn't particularly noticeable but once one plank was
freed to move independently downwards it became immediately apparent.

Which kind of suggests the UFH is just following the (uneven) sub floor
its sat on. Packing out under the new laminate boards in the low spots
should fix it.


I wonder if laminate laid over UFH needs more expansion room than the
norm?

As long as it has some it should be ok. The total movement is not going
to be much in absolute terms unless the floor area is huge.

If that's the case, and if the fitters didn't leave enough space
against the walls, then the problem becomes a bigger one, given that the
L-shaped kitchen units are masking all the edges.




--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , Bert
Coules writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has
less support there because it coincides with a pipe run.

Actually it was the right hand edge. But see my post a minute or so
ago in answer to John Rumm for more details.

Yes.

Can you see if the other end of the flooring is tight to the
skirting/wall? It might be easier to adjust there than struggle under
the units.

--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

Can you see if the other end of the flooring is tight to the
skirting/wall? It might be easier to adjust there than struggle under the
units.

Thanks for the thought, but unfortunately the other edges are under
skirting. However, with a mirror, a stick and some undignified lying
full-length on the floor, I've been able to establish that there's a good
space on at least one of the kitchen walls. The other is hidden behind
plumbing.

John, thanks for that. A bit of experimentation has revealed that judicious
packing does seem to eliminate the movement. The problem now is that the
replacement plank, even with its t&g edging trimmed on three sides, doesn't
want to go back into the space left by the old one, general movement over
the whole floor being to blame, I suspect.

On 18/11/2017 18:17, Bert Coules wrote:
John, thanks for that. A bit of experimentation has revealed that
judicious packing does seem to eliminate the movement. The problem now
is that the replacement plank, even with its t&g edging trimmed on three
sides, doesn't want to go back into the space left by the old one,
general movement over the whole floor being to blame, I suspect.

They are usually a fairly tight fit, so you may need to tap it into
place with a block and a hammer.


--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
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John Rumm wrote:

They are usually a fairly tight fit, so you may need to tap it into place
with a block and a hammer.

For fairly tight read impossible, and for tap it into place read shave a
(very small) bit off one long edge. Fixing the deflection deprived the
plank of its original full-width, non-flat-lying home, I think.

And now the job is done, everything is back in place and the floor doesn't
flex beneath my feet any more. Many thanks to everyone who chipped in with
ideas, thoughts and suggestions: all much appreciated.

There's still movement elsewhere in the area, caused I reckon by the
un-flatness of the underlying floorboards; I wouldn't be entirely surprised
if another t&g join were to fail some time in the future. But I'll be ready
for it next time...