I have a problem with a laminate floor, laid about one year ago. The
sub-floor is conventional floorboards with wet underfloor heating on top and
then a recommended underlay.

In one place in the kitchen there seems to be damage to the t&g join and one
plank depresses if weight is put on it:

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...roblem%202.jpg

(short version: https://tinyurl.com/yam3sdah )

The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A
laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and
replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in
expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set.

I was OK with getting him to do that, but then he had second thoughts about
drilling the hole. "There's too big a risk of hitting the pipework" he
said.

What do people think, firstly of the suggested method and secondly of the
dangers of drilling into the laminate? I'd have thought that going
carefully and using a depth gauge (and perhaps a non-pointed bit?) it ought
to be all right.

Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place?

Many thanks.

replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
If it's literally just that plank, then I suspect it was a defective
lamination. If it is or starts showing elsewhere, then the flooring either
isn't approved for use over floor heating (not good for you and your fitter's
relationship) or you need to submit a Warranty Claim to the manufacturer
immediately.

On the fix-it side, I'd agree that expanding foam is NOT a good option.
Expanding foam does "seem" fairly rigid, but it's not. You'd be much better
off with a Gorilla Glue type of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling)
and expanding glue. It's very solid and any excess chips or scrapes right off
of the flooring surface.

In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible) and lift the
plank a little more than in the picture or just enough to squirt and push-in
with a toothpick or popsicle stick (whatever) the glue to secure and fill the
problem area. If the plank can be bowed or lifted, then drilling into the side
is fine because it'll be invisible and later hidden.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...g-1248449-.htm

Iggy,

Thanks for your reply.

You'd be much better off with a Gorilla Glue type
of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling)
and expanding glue.

Can you recommend a specific one? Or will the original basic Gorilla Glue
be the best choice?

In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible)...

I agree, that's obviously desirable.

and lift the plank a little more than in the picture...

That's tricky. I can depress the plank (as pictured) but I can't get under
it to lift it, since the adjoining plank won't move either up or down.

replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick. And oh, I see. Well then, drill
a or a few holes and force the glue down as best you can. Drill in the dark
grain areas, as those will be least noticeable. You might even be able to just
draw over the holes with a Sharpie to disappear them, but then you'll need to
polyurethane them a few times for waterproofing and durability.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...g-1248449-.htm

In message , Iggy
m writes
replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick. And oh, I see. Well then, drill
a or a few holes and force the glue down as best you can. Drill in the dark
grain areas, as those will be least noticeable. You might even be able to just
draw over the holes with a Sharpie to disappear them, but then you'll need to
polyurethane them a few times for waterproofing and durability.

--
for full context, visit
https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...ring-over-unde
rfloor-heating-1248449-.htm

The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units
anyway.

My next job:-)

Over floor grooved EPS. The heating system suppliers suggest
strengthening the floor with timber battens where the feet go. Kitchen
designer lady pooh poohed this when I ran it by her.

I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and
groove supplied.



--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units
anyway.

Is that relevant? The part of the flooring which might need to be drilled
is not under the kitchen units and so has the UFH pipes directly beneath it.

I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and
groove supplied.

I don't see how that can be the case, since the depression occurs only over
one small part of the entire length of the plank.

On Friday, 10 November 2017 20:09:52 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:

My next job:-)

Over floor grooved EPS. The heating system suppliers suggest
strengthening the floor with timber battens where the feet go. Kitchen
designer lady pooh poohed this when I ran it by her.

I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and
groove supplied.

Flooring EPS is known for sagging in time. I'd not want to rely on it to carry the load, especially in a kitchen.


NT

Iggy wrote:

Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick.

Thank you.

Surely if it does prove necessary (and practical) to drill through the
laminate it should be possible to plug the holes afterwards with an
appropriately coloured filler of some sort, shouldn't it? Thank you for the
tip about waterproofing those spots.

replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
Actually, the glue would be much better as your filler, since it'll be solidly
connected down below and it's glue. Using some putty or auto body filler for
such a shallow patch will pop right out. If you prefer either of those though,
then re-drill the holes afterward and wiggle the drill bit around so the holes
are conical, so the patches can't pop-out or walk-up and out of their holes.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...g-1248449-.htm

On 10/11/2017 21:38, Bert Coules wrote:
Iggy wrote:

Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick.

Thank you.

Surely if it does prove necessary (and practical) to drill through the
laminate it should be possible to plug the holes afterwards with an
appropriately coloured filler of some sort, shouldn't it?Â* Thank you for
the tip about waterproofing those spots.



If the laminate board can be lifted slightly more the hole can be
drilled diagonally starting at the edge and may hidden when fitted flush
again.

Consider injecting the glue using a syringe without a needle (medical or
printer ink replacement from ebay). Some syringes have fairly long
plastic outlet nozzles over which the needle is attached and would allow
a hole of a few mm to be pumped full of glue. Alternative, if the glue
consistency allows, some of the ink refill syringe needles may be of a
wider bore to allow pumping glue down a 1 or 2 mm hole.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 10/11/2017 14:18, Bert Coules wrote:
Iggy,

Thanks for your reply.

You'd be much better off with a Gorilla Glue type
of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling)
and expanding glue.

Can you recommend a specific one? Or will the original basic Gorilla
Glue be the best choice?

In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible)...

I agree, that's obviously desirable.

and lift the plank a little more than in the picture...

That's tricky. I can depress the plank (as pictured) but I can't get
under it to lift it, since the adjoining plank won't move either up or
down.

Do you have a spare plank?

If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank).
Cut inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining edges.
Level or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped off the
underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on a bed of
adhesive and weighted down til set.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

Do you have a spare plank?

If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank). Cut
inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining edges. Level
or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped off the
underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on a bed of
adhesive and weighted down til set.

Thanks for that. The idea of sawing through the laminate, even with the saw
set to its thickness, is rather daunting - just as the professional fitter I
consulted was daunted by drilling into it - but I can see that it might be
the best approach.

However, as I just wrote in a separate post, I'm beginning to have doubts
about the whole kitchen area.

On 13/11/2017 11:34, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Do you have a spare plank?

If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank).
Cut inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining
edges. Level or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped
off the underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on
a bed of adhesive and weighted down til set.

Thanks for that. The idea of sawing through the laminate, even with the
saw set to its thickness, is rather daunting - just as the professional
fitter I consulted was daunted by drilling into it - but I can see that
it might be the best approach.

If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use
that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure you
go no deeper than the plank.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:19:41 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A
laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and
replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in
expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set.

Expanding foam when expanding exerts a large force on constraining
materials and is quite likely to lift the floor no matter what you try
to weigh it down with. Moreover, in a confined space it will not set
quickly and could easily continue to expand for several days.

Yes after a week after the person thought it was done and plastered over the
foam it suddenly pushed a lump of plaster out and formed what I can only
describe as a bubble gum like structure poking out of the wall by the window
the foam was filling a void near.
I hate the stuff.
Its like some kind of alien organism.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Peter Parry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:19:41 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A
laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and
replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in
expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set.

Expanding foam when expanding exerts a large force on constraining
materials and is quite likely to lift the floor no matter what you try
to weigh it down with. Moreover, in a confined space it will not set
quickly and could easily continue to expand for several days.

On Friday, 10 November 2017 14:00:51 UTC, Peter Parry wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:19:41 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote:

The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A
laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and
replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in
expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set.

Expanding foam when expanding exerts a large force on constraining
materials and is quite likely to lift the floor no matter what you try
to weigh it down with. Moreover, in a confined space it will not set
quickly and could easily continue to expand for several days.

+1, disastrous idea. It might seal the holed pipe though!


NT

NT wrote:

+1, disastrous idea.

Yes, that does seem to be the general opinion. Thanks to you and everyone
else for reinforcing it.

It might seal the holed pipe though!

Ah well, every cloud (or every leak) and all that...

On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:
In one place in the kitchen there seems to be damage to the t&g join and
one plank depresses if weight is put on it:

I dont have an answer but it also looks like the plank is `bowing` where
it goes under the kickboard.

On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:
Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place?

Someone dropped a Le Creuset cooking utensil and it hit edge down right
on a floor joint ?.

Andrew wrote:

Someone dropped a Le Creuset cooking utensil and it hit edge down right
on a floor joint ?

An interesting thought but I know of nothing, unfeasibly heavy or otherwise,
ever having been dropped on that spot.

On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:

Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place?

An observation
The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero
at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be
too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering
down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing
it to rise the other side of the joist? Perhaps remove the kick board
to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit
from the kick board at the appropriate point.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 11/11/2017 07:37, alan_m wrote:
On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:

Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first
place?

An observation
The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero
at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be
too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering
down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing
it to rise the other side of the joist?Â* Perhaps remove the kick board
to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit
from the kick board at the appropriate point.



Don't consider that you have a depression but alternatively one plank is
being forced up and the adjacent planks are coming up with it. The plank
that is causing the problem cannot move but the adjacent planks tongue
and groove has partially failed so you can depress it.

--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

On 11/11/2017 07:48, alan_m wrote:
An observation
The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero
at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be
too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering
down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing
it to rise the other side of the joist?Â* Perhaps remove the kick board
to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit
from the kick board at the appropriate point.

I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is
slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard
causing it to bow upwards.

"ss" wrote:

I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is
slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard causing
it to bow upwards.

Yes, thanks for that: sorry I failed to acknowledge it earlier. With the
kickboards removed I tried to see how much (if any) gap had been left
between the laminate and the walls but it's very difficult to gauge.

Could it be that the weight of the units themselves is sufficient to prevent
the laminate's proper degree of expansion and contraction?

If so, maybe the answer is to remove the laminate from beneath the units.

Bert Coules wrote:

"ss" wrote:

I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is
slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard causing
it to bow upwards.

Yes, thanks for that: sorry I failed to acknowledge it earlier. With the
kickboards removed I tried to see how much (if any) gap had been left
between the laminate and the walls but it's very difficult to gauge.

Could it be that the weight of the units themselves is sufficient to prevent
the laminate's proper degree of expansion and contraction?
snip

You mean by friction stopping it sliding a mm or two against the
kickboards? I don't think this is even remotely possible, the forces
from friction are going to be much too small to cause the laminate to
buckle because of the compressibility of the underlay. I could be
completely wrong of course,

--

Roger Hayter

"alan_m" wrote:

The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero at
the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be too
tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering down the
laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing it to rise
the other side of the joist? Perhaps remove the kick board to see if the
floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit from the kick
board at the appropriate point.

Thanks for that. I've now removed the kick board in the photo, and another
nearby one at 90 degrees to it (the kitchen units being in an L shape) but
it's made no difference. I'm beginning to suspect that there might be a
problem with the underlying floorboard(s) which if so will be a real pain.
none of the laminate in this area seems to be lying properly flat and there
are signs that another board is going the same way as the damaged one.

I hope it doesn't come to removing the kitchen units.

Bert Coules wrote:

none of the laminate in this area seems to be lying properly flat

Is there an expansion gap round the edges?

Andy Burns wrote:

Is there an expansion gap round the edges?

It's difficult to tell since the edges in this area are covered by the
kitchen units. But elsewhere the original fitters left the usual gaps and I
imagine that they did the same here.

I wonder though (as I just posted separately) if the weight of the kitchen
units could be sufficient to prevent the flooring expanding and contracting
properly.

On 13/11/2017 11:46, Bert Coules wrote:
Andy Burns wrote:

Is there an expansion gap round the edges?

It's difficult to tell since the edges in this area are covered by the
kitchen units. But elsewhere the original fitters left the usual gaps
and I imagine that they did the same here.

I wonder though (as I just posted separately) if the weight of the
kitchen units could be sufficient to prevent the flooring expanding and
contracting properly.

It could well be that the existing floor was not flat enough in the
first place, and hence some boards are spanning dips in the floor
substrate. Over time, the T&G edges will start to break, and that will
allow a board to depress into a dip.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Well, that didn't last long. My new (and admittedly, budget) plunge saw
arrived and seemed perfectly well made and robust. I charged the battery
and tried a few test cuts on scrap to get the feel of the tool, then with a
deep breath decided to tackle the broken plank.

I almost finished one complete lengthwise cut when the saw stopped: it
didn't have enough power to get through the laminate. The battery indicator
wasn't at empty but neither was it at full, so I charged it again. The next
cut managed about three inches before the saw stopped for a second time.

Back to the charger. The charging light flashed once and then remained
resolutely off. So - a faulty Lithium-ion battery? Whether that's it or
not, it has to go back.

I suppose "buy locally" is the moral.

On 16/11/17 15:50, Bert Coules wrote:
Well, that didn't last long.Â* My new (and admittedly, budget) plunge saw
arrived and seemed perfectly well made and robust.Â* I charged the
battery and tried a few test cuts on scrap to get the feel of the tool,
then with a deep breath decided to tackle the broken plank.

I almost finished one complete lengthwise cut when the saw stopped: it
didn't have enough power to get through the laminate.Â* The battery
indicator wasn't at empty but neither was it at full, so I charged it
again.Â* The next cut managed about three inches before the saw stopped
for a second time.

Back to the charger.Â* The charging light flashed once and then remained
resolutely off.Â* So - a faulty Lithium-ion battery?Â* Whether that's it
or not, it has to go back.

I suppose "buy locally" is the moral.


over temperature cutout?


--
If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for
the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the
truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

Joseph Goebbels

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

over temperature cutout?

Thanks for the thought. I did try again after a lengthy interval and the
charging light did come back on. But when the charger showed the battery as
completely full, the battery's own indicator didn't. And again I only got a
minute of so of use before the tool died again.

Currently, after another (cooling down?) period the battery is charging
again. It will be interesting to see what happens this time.

Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...%20removed.jpg

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )

My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the pipes
might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that the
pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the bottom of
the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout isn't as
straightforward as I would have thought.

The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the one
which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged edge. And
bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I see no reason
why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was happening.

More investigation tomorrow...

On 16/11/2017 18:55, Bert Coules wrote:
Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...%20removed.jpg

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )

My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the
pipes might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that
the pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the
bottom of the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout
isn't as straightforward as I would have thought.

The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the
one which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged
edge. And bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I
see no reason why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was
happening.

More investigation tomorrow...

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

If you get a long straight edge, you should be able to see if there is a
low spot somewhere there.

--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

John Rumm wrote:

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

Yes, thanks, that's the first thing to try tomorrow, I think. Though a
slightly half-hearted bit of foot-pressure on the exposed UFH system (I'm
still a bit wary of damaging those pipes) didn't move it downwards at all,
so quite where the plank went to when it moved remains a bit of a mystery.
Perhaps I just need to be bolder.

On 16/11/2017 23:16, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force
applied...

Yes, thanks, that's the first thing to try tomorrow, I think. Though a
slightly half-hearted bit of foot-pressure on the exposed UFH system
(I'm still a bit wary of damaging those pipes) didn't move it downwards
at all, so quite where the plank went to when it moved remains a bit of
a mystery. Perhaps I just need to be bolder.

Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH panels,
or under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
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John Rumm wrote:

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force
applied...

In fact I wasn't testing the right area. The board that shifted wasn't
damaged at all: it's the adjacent board. Though its tongue appeared intact,
one length of it is completely separated: it's held in place by the
still-attached tongue either side of it which is why I didn't immediately
notice it.

So a second plank has to come up, I think - a rather less daunting process
now I've dome a previous one.

Chances are there is a dip either visible at the top of the UFH panels, or
under them such that they can push down a bit when loaded.

Another discovery this morning: there's no deflection at all in the UFH
panel but one area of the flooring isn't laying flat against it. With the
t&g intact it wasn't particularly noticeable but once one plank was freed to
move independently downwards it became immediately apparent.

I wonder if laminate laid over UFH needs more expansion room than the norm?
If that's the case, and if the fitters didn't leave enough space against the
walls, then the problem becomes a bigger one, given that the L-shaped
kitchen units are masking all the edges.

In message , John
Rumm writes
On 16/11/2017 18:55, Bert Coules wrote:
Well, after some stop-and-go cutting with the plunge saw I've managed to
remove the suspect plank (and without flooding the kitchen):

http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...%20removed.jpg

(Short version: https://tinyurl.com/y9ytyasp )

My initial reaction was that I was surprised to see those particular UFH
housing-boards: I expected to find the ones for straight pipe runs,
which would surely give slightly more support. Of course I don't know
what's happening at either side of the exposed section: I suppose the
pipes might well be turning back on themselves there. You can see that
the pipework runs in two different directions and the two runs at the
bottom of the image do indeed turn through 180 degrees so the layout
isn't as straightforward as I would have thought.

The next thing I noticed - annoyingly - is that the plank I removed, the
one which dropped when weight was put on it - doesn't have a damaged
edge. And bafflingly, neither does the one next to it. Not only can I
see no reason why the depression was happening, I can't see *how* it was
happening.

More investigation tomorrow...

You might only get deflection of the tongue when there is force applied...

If you get a long straight edge, you should be able to see if there is
a low spot somewhere there.

If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has
less support there because it coincides with a pipe run.
Now you have it exposed, I wonder if some sheet aluminium could be
inserted as additional support.


--
Tim Lamb

Tim Lamb wrote:

If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has less
support there because it coincides with a pipe run.

Actually it was the right hand edge. But see my post a minute or so ago in
answer to John Rumm for more details.

In message , Bert
Coules writes
Tim Lamb wrote:

If the problem was the left hand edge in your picture, the board has
less support there because it coincides with a pipe run.

Actually it was the right hand edge. But see my post a minute or so
ago in answer to John Rumm for more details.

Yes.

Can you see if the other end of the flooring is tight to the
skirting/wall? It might be easier to adjust there than struggle under
the units.

--
Tim Lamb