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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#1
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
I have a problem with a laminate floor, laid about one year ago. The
sub-floor is conventional floorboards with wet underfloor heating on top and then a recommended underlay. In one place in the kitchen there seems to be damage to the t&g join and one plank depresses if weight is put on it: http://bertcoules.co.uk/non%20websit...roblem%202.jpg (short version: https://tinyurl.com/yam3sdah ) The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set. I was OK with getting him to do that, but then he had second thoughts about drilling the hole. "There's too big a risk of hitting the pipework" he said. What do people think, firstly of the suggested method and secondly of the dangers of drilling into the laminate? I'd have thought that going carefully and using a depth gauge (and perhaps a non-pointed bit?) it ought to be all right. Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place? Many thanks. |
#2
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
If it's literally just that plank, then I suspect it was a defective lamination. If it is or starts showing elsewhere, then the flooring either isn't approved for use over floor heating (not good for you and your fitter's relationship) or you need to submit a Warranty Claim to the manufacturer immediately. On the fix-it side, I'd agree that expanding foam is NOT a good option. Expanding foam does "seem" fairly rigid, but it's not. You'd be much better off with a Gorilla Glue type of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling) and expanding glue. It's very solid and any excess chips or scrapes right off of the flooring surface. In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible) and lift the plank a little more than in the picture or just enough to squirt and push-in with a toothpick or popsicle stick (whatever) the glue to secure and fill the problem area. If the plank can be bowed or lifted, then drilling into the side is fine because it'll be invisible and later hidden. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...g-1248449-.htm |
#3
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:19:41 -0000, "Bert Coules"
wrote: The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set. Expanding foam when expanding exerts a large force on constraining materials and is quite likely to lift the floor no matter what you try to weigh it down with. Moreover, in a confined space it will not set quickly and could easily continue to expand for several days. |
#4
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Iggy,
Thanks for your reply. You'd be much better off with a Gorilla Glue type of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling) and expanding glue. Can you recommend a specific one? Or will the original basic Gorilla Glue be the best choice? In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible)... I agree, that's obviously desirable. and lift the plank a little more than in the picture... That's tricky. I can depress the plank (as pictured) but I can't get under it to lift it, since the adjoining plank won't move either up or down. |
#5
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:
In one place in the kitchen there seems to be damage to the t&g join and one plank depresses if weight is put on it: I dont have an answer but it also looks like the plank is `bowing` where it goes under the kickboard. |
#7
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On Friday, 10 November 2017 14:00:51 UTC, Peter Parry wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2017 11:19:41 -0000, "Bert Coules" wrote: The flooring runs under the kitchen units all the way to the wall. A laminate fitter examined this and suggested that rather than lifting and replacing the plank it would be possible to drill a small hole, squirt in expanding foam and then weigh down the floor until it had set. Expanding foam when expanding exerts a large force on constraining materials and is quite likely to lift the floor no matter what you try to weigh it down with. Moreover, in a confined space it will not set quickly and could easily continue to expand for several days. +1, disastrous idea. It might seal the holed pipe though! NT |
#8
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
NT wrote:
+1, disastrous idea. Yes, that does seem to be the general opinion. Thanks to you and everyone else for reinforcing it. It might seal the holed pipe though! Ah well, every cloud (or every leak) and all that... |
#9
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick. And oh, I see. Well then, drill a or a few holes and force the glue down as best you can. Drill in the dark grain areas, as those will be least noticeable. You might even be able to just draw over the holes with a Sharpie to disappear them, but then you'll need to polyurethane them a few times for waterproofing and durability. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...g-1248449-.htm |
#10
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
In message , Iggy
m writes replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote: Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick. And oh, I see. Well then, drill a or a few holes and force the glue down as best you can. Drill in the dark grain areas, as those will be least noticeable. You might even be able to just draw over the holes with a Sharpie to disappear them, but then you'll need to polyurethane them a few times for waterproofing and durability. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...ring-over-unde rfloor-heating-1248449-.htm The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units anyway. My next job:-) Over floor grooved EPS. The heating system suppliers suggest strengthening the floor with timber battens where the feet go. Kitchen designer lady pooh poohed this when I ran it by her. I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and groove supplied. -- Tim Lamb |
#11
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Tim Lamb wrote:
The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units anyway. Is that relevant? The part of the flooring which might need to be drilled is not under the kitchen units and so has the UFH pipes directly beneath it. I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and groove supplied. I don't see how that can be the case, since the depression occurs only over one small part of the entire length of the plank. |
#12
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Iggy wrote:
Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick. Thank you. Surely if it does prove necessary (and practical) to drill through the laminate it should be possible to plug the holes afterwards with an appropriately coloured filler of some sort, shouldn't it? Thank you for the tip about waterproofing those spots. |
#13
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On Friday, 10 November 2017 20:09:52 UTC, Tim Lamb wrote:
My next job:-) Over floor grooved EPS. The heating system suppliers suggest strengthening the floor with timber battens where the feet go. Kitchen designer lady pooh poohed this when I ran it by her. I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and groove supplied. Flooring EPS is known for sagging in time. I'd not want to rely on it to carry the load, especially in a kitchen. NT |
#14
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:
Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place? Someone dropped a Le Creuset cooking utensil and it hit edge down right on a floor joint ?. |
#15
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
replying to Bert Coules, Iggy wrote:
Actually, the glue would be much better as your filler, since it'll be solidly connected down below and it's glue. Using some putty or auto body filler for such a shallow patch will pop right out. If you prefer either of those though, then re-drill the holes afterward and wiggle the drill bit around so the holes are conical, so the patches can't pop-out or walk-up and out of their holes. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...g-1248449-.htm |
#16
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Iggy,
It didn't occur to me that the glue itself would seal the holes but now you point it out it is of course obvious. thanks. |
#17
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
NT,
Flooring EPS is known for sagging in time. Even when installed on top of conventional floorboards? |
#18
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Andrew wrote:
Someone dropped a Le Creuset cooking utensil and it hit edge down right on a floor joint ? An interesting thought but I know of nothing, unfeasibly heavy or otherwise, ever having been dropped on that spot. |
#19
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 10/11/2017 14:18, Bert Coules wrote:
Iggy, Thanks for your reply. You'd be much better off with a Gorilla Glue type of polyurethane water-curing (moist, not pooling) and expanding glue. Can you recommend a specific one? Or will the original basic Gorilla Glue be the best choice? In that case, I'd much prefer to avoid any drilling (if possible)... I agree, that's obviously desirable. and lift the plank a little more than in the picture... That's tricky. I can depress the plank (as pictured) but I can't get under it to lift it, since the adjoining plank won't move either up or down. Do you have a spare plank? If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank). Cut inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining edges. Level or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped off the underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on a bed of adhesive and weighted down til set. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#20
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On Friday, 10 November 2017 23:23:41 UTC, Bert Coules wrote:
NT, Flooring EPS is known for sagging in time. Even when installed on top of conventional floorboards? I've never seen a floor done like that |
#21
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 10/11/2017 21:38, Bert Coules wrote:
Iggy wrote: Just the basic Gorilla Glue will do the trick. Thank you. Surely if it does prove necessary (and practical) to drill through the laminate it should be possible to plug the holes afterwards with an appropriately coloured filler of some sort, shouldn't it?Â* Thank you for the tip about waterproofing those spots. If the laminate board can be lifted slightly more the hole can be drilled diagonally starting at the edge and may hidden when fitted flush again. Consider injecting the glue using a syringe without a needle (medical or printer ink replacement from ebay). Some syringes have fairly long plastic outlet nozzles over which the needle is attached and would allow a hole of a few mm to be pumped full of glue. Alternative, if the glue consistency allows, some of the ink refill syringe needles may be of a wider bore to allow pumping glue down a 1 or 2 mm hole. -- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#22
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote:
Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place? An observation The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing it to rise the other side of the joist? Perhaps remove the kick board to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit from the kick board at the appropriate point. -- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#23
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 11/11/2017 07:37, alan_m wrote:
On 10/11/2017 11:19, Bert Coules wrote: Also, any thoughts on what might have caused the damage in the first place? An observation The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing it to rise the other side of the joist?Â* Perhaps remove the kick board to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit from the kick board at the appropriate point. Don't consider that you have a depression but alternatively one plank is being forced up and the adjacent planks are coming up with it. The plank that is causing the problem cannot move but the adjacent planks tongue and groove has partially failed so you can depress it. -- mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk |
#24
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 11/11/2017 07:48, alan_m wrote:
An observation The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing it to rise the other side of the joist?Â* Perhaps remove the kick board to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit from the kick board at the appropriate point. I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard causing it to bow upwards. |
#25
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
In message , Bert
Coules writes Tim Lamb wrote: The underfloor heating pipes should not run under the kitchen units anyway. Is that relevant? The part of the flooring which might need to be drilled is not under the kitchen units and so has the UFH pipes directly beneath it. Sorry. I hadn't looked at your photo. Do you know what type of boards were used for the underfloor piping? I'm using the EPS version and wouldn't risk laying laminate directly on top. I guess your floor fitters used a butt joint instead of the tongue and groove supplied. I don't see how that can be the case, since the depression occurs only over one small part of the entire length of the plank. The original ground floor set up here was 25mm Jablite over concrete with 18mm glued joint chipboard flooring. There was one heavily trafficked place where the floor squeaked. I haven't stripped this out yet but I suspect the flooring joint happens to coincide with the joint in the insulation. -- Tim Lamb |
#26
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
"alan_m" wrote:
The gap between the floor and the kitchen unit base seems to go to zero at the point of the dodgy board. Could the kitchen unit kick board be too tight at the point where the floor rises slightly and is levering down the laminate plank on one side of an underlying joist - and causing it to rise the other side of the joist? Perhaps remove the kick board to see if the floor naturally recovers and if it does just shave a bit from the kick board at the appropriate point. Thanks for that. I've now removed the kick board in the photo, and another nearby one at 90 degrees to it (the kitchen units being in an L shape) but it's made no difference. I'm beginning to suspect that there might be a problem with the underlying floorboard(s) which if so will be a real pain. none of the laminate in this area seems to be lying properly flat and there are signs that another board is going the same way as the damaged one. I hope it doesn't come to removing the kitchen units. |
#27
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Bert Coules wrote:
none of the laminate in this area seems to be lying properly flat Is there an expansion gap round the edges? |
#28
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
"ss" wrote:
I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard causing it to bow upwards. Yes, thanks for that: sorry I failed to acknowledge it earlier. With the kickboards removed I tried to see how much (if any) gap had been left between the laminate and the walls but it's very difficult to gauge. Could it be that the weight of the units themselves is sufficient to prevent the laminate's proper degree of expansion and contraction? If so, maybe the answer is to remove the laminate from beneath the units. |
#29
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
John Rumm wrote:
Do you have a spare plank? If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank). Cut inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining edges. Level or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped off the underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on a bed of adhesive and weighted down til set. Thanks for that. The idea of sawing through the laminate, even with the saw set to its thickness, is rather daunting - just as the professional fitter I consulted was daunted by drilling into it - but I can see that it might be the best approach. However, as I just wrote in a separate post, I'm beginning to have doubts about the whole kitchen area. |
#30
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Andy Burns wrote:
Is there an expansion gap round the edges? It's difficult to tell since the edges in this area are covered by the kitchen units. But elsewhere the original fitters left the usual gaps and I imagine that they did the same here. I wonder though (as I just posted separately) if the weight of the kitchen units could be sufficient to prevent the flooring expanding and contracting properly. |
#31
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Bert Coules wrote:
"ss" wrote: I mentioned that in post above but rethinking it maybe that the board is slightly too long and is wedged in somewhere beyond the kickboard causing it to bow upwards. Yes, thanks for that: sorry I failed to acknowledge it earlier. With the kickboards removed I tried to see how much (if any) gap had been left between the laminate and the walls but it's very difficult to gauge. Could it be that the weight of the units themselves is sufficient to prevent the laminate's proper degree of expansion and contraction? snip You mean by friction stopping it sliding a mm or two against the kickboards? I don't think this is even remotely possible, the forces from friction are going to be much too small to cause the laminate to buckle because of the compressibility of the underlay. I could be completely wrong of course, -- Roger Hayter |
#32
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Roger Hayter wrote:
You mean by friction stopping it sliding a mm or two against the kickboards? I don't think this is even remotely possible... Thanks for that. |
#33
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 13/11/2017 11:34, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote: Do you have a spare plank? If so, cut the existing one out (circular saw set to depth of plank). Cut inside the perimeter all round. Then break out the remaining edges. Level or fix the floor under, then fit new plank having chopped off the underside of the grove so that it can be dropped into place on a bed of adhesive and weighted down til set. Thanks for that. The idea of sawing through the laminate, even with the saw set to its thickness, is rather daunting - just as the professional fitter I consulted was daunted by drilling into it - but I can see that it might be the best approach. If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure you go no deeper than the plank. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#34
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 13/11/2017 11:46, Bert Coules wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: Is there an expansion gap round the edges? It's difficult to tell since the edges in this area are covered by the kitchen units. But elsewhere the original fitters left the usual gaps and I imagine that they did the same here. I wonder though (as I just posted separately) if the weight of the kitchen units could be sufficient to prevent the flooring expanding and contracting properly. It could well be that the existing floor was not flat enough in the first place, and hence some boards are spanning dips in the floor substrate. Over time, the T&G edges will start to break, and that will allow a board to depress into a dip. -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#35
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
John Rumm wrote:
If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure you go no deeper than the plank. I'd have preferred it if you hadn't chucked in that "fairly"! Yes, this does seem the way to do it, except that my only circular saw is a massive and unwieldy beast of a thing and not exactly a precision instrument any more, so I'm thinking of acquiring a small plunge saw purely for this job. There seem to be several reasonable-looking budget models around, such as the 18V cordless Bakita: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cordless-Li...i+circular+saw (Short version: https://tinyurl.com/ya3cmtj8 ) I realise of course that you get what you pay for, but for an immediate one-off task (and only the very occasional job (if that) in the future) it seems OK to me to go for something like that. As long as the depth gauge is reliable... |
#36
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
Whoops. That's "Batavia", not Bakita.
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#37
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 14/11/2017 09:41, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote: If you have a similar plank, then its fairly "safe", since you can use that to set the depth of cut on the saw. That way you can make sure you go no deeper than the plank. I'd have preferred it if you hadn't chucked in that "fairly"! Yes, this does seem the way to do it, except that my only circular saw is a massive and unwieldy beast of a thing and not exactly a precision instrument any more, so I'm thinking of acquiring a small plunge saw You don't really need precision for the hacking out part of the exercise ;-) purely for this job. There seem to be several reasonable-looking budget models around, such as the 18V cordless Bakita: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cordless-Li...i+circular+saw (Short version: https://tinyurl.com/ya3cmtj8 ) I realise of course that you get what you pay for, but for an immediate one-off task (and only the very occasional job (if that) in the future) it seems OK to me to go for something like that. As long as the depth gauge is reliable... That kind of thing looks ideal, although note that particular one can only cut 12mm, and some posher laminates a slightly more than that (although most are less to be fair). -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#38
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
John Rumm wrote:
That kind of thing looks ideal, although note that particular one can only cut 12mm... Well spotted, thanks. and some posher laminates a slightly more than that (although most are less to be fair). Mine is 10mm. I'm wondering now if a thicker product might not have given rise to the problem, though it's a bit late to think about that. |
#39
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
On 14/11/2017 17:25, Bert Coules wrote:
John Rumm wrote: That kind of thing looks ideal, although note that particular one can only cut 12mm... Well spotted, thanks. and some posher laminates a slightly more than that (although most are less to be fair). Mine is 10mm. I'm wondering now if a thicker product might not have given rise to the problem, though it's a bit late to think about that. When you have a void under a join in the board, you end up with the full weight of the person standing on it being supported on a third of the thickness of the board (i.e. the bottom part of the groove, or the tongue), so its quite easy to break something - especially as most are MDF backed and that is quite weak in tension across its layers) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#40
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Damaged laminate flooring over underfloor heating
John Rumm wrote:
When you have a void under a join in the board, you end up with the full weight of the person standing on it being supported on a third of the thickness of the board (i.e. the bottom part of the groove, or the tongue), so its quite easy to break something - especially as most are MDF backed and that is quite weak in tension across its layers) Which means presumably that a new board in the same position would sooner or later go the same way. I've been wondering about installing a new floor surface on top of the laminate in the kitchen area (it's only a small corner section of an open plan bungalow) - perhaps laminate again but with the planks running at ninety degrees to the ones there now. There are multiple snags though: the existing floor doesn't lay dead flat, there would be two exposed edges ripe for tripping over and it would be necessary to somehow fix down the new flooring so that it doesn't move. But it should certainly solve the present problem. And another thought that's just struck me: remove the existing laminate in the kitchen and replace it with new flooring planks of the same thickness, at ninety degrees. If I could arrange suitable junction strips of some sort that might work, though I suspect that the different expansion tendencies could well be a problem. |
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