How often does that happen?

I've just come back from almost[1] fixing an issue with a washing
machine which was reliably tripping the kitchen-circuit RCD in a flat.

Isolating the various stages of the connection, it was inside the
moulded plug, which from the visible black smoke stains on the socket
faceplate had perhaps been subjected to a certain amount of overheating
(but not enough to distort the plastic of the plug) due to a weak spring
clip or maybe loose connection, inside the wall-mounted 13A plate under
the counter.

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
newly fitted non-moulded plug.
--
Roland Perry

Well, almost any kind of mass produced device can be faulty I suppose. I
assume this had the usual hinge up fuse on the bottom of it.
Maybe it just got very hot due to poor manufacture until a critical point
happened where it failed.

I'd have thought though that something more than what you see now must have
occurred to make things trip without blowing the fuse in the plug.

I guess it depends where the actual short was.
I am not that impressed by those clamped on plugs for hi fi bits and
pieces where a two pin shaver type plug on the mains lead is clamped into a
housing for a 13 amp fused plug. they seem flimsey and open to damage.


Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Roland Perry" wrote in message
...
How often does that happen?

I've just come back from almost[1] fixing an issue with a washing machine
which was reliably tripping the kitchen-circuit RCD in a flat.

Isolating the various stages of the connection, it was inside the moulded
plug, which from the visible black smoke stains on the socket faceplate
had perhaps been subjected to a certain amount of overheating (but not
enough to distort the plastic of the plug) due to a weak spring clip or
maybe loose connection, inside the wall-mounted 13A plate under the
counter.

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter voltages)
a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
newly fitted non-moulded plug.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.


NT

On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
Â*Â*Â* which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
Â*Â*Â* newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket. If I was the landlord I'd
charge for that.

Bill

In message , at
16:24:15 on Sat, 28 Oct 2017, remarked:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.

Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

That's why I mentioned voltages. The full set of components involved
we

Main fuse box (with RCD trips)
Neon-fitted wall switch in kitchen (above counter)
Unswitched 13A socket-plate (below counter)
Moulded-on plug
Cable to a mains filter inside the washer, top righthand rear corner.
Washing machine wiring loom plugging into the filter.

Working though it stage by stage, the tripping was fixed by replacing
the plug, and the one I took off has the characteristic I described.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 03:05:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Bill Wright remarked:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
*** which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
*** newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was correctly
fully seated when I found it.

If I was the landlord I'd charge for that.

--
Roland Perry

On 29/10/2017 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 03:05:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Bill Wright remarked:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
Â*Â*Â*Â* which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
Â*Â*Â*Â* newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was correctly
fully seated when I found it.

My guess would by the socket was 'loose' causing an occasional 'arc',
which burned the surrounding area. Once the process starts, it tends to
get worse with time.

I would recommend you replace the faceplate. Even if the property is
rented, the small cost really isn't worth the aggro. What does a
faceplate cost, under £5?


--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On 29/10/2017 08:09, Brian Reay wrote:
On 29/10/2017 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 03:05:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Bill Wright remarked:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
Â*Â*Â*Â* which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
Â*Â*Â*Â* newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was
correctly fully seated when I found it.

My guess would by the socket was 'loose' causing an occasional 'arc',
which burned the surrounding area. Once the process starts, it tends to
get worse with time.

I would recommend you replace the faceplate. Even if the property is
rented, the small cost really isn't worth the aggro. What does a
faceplate cost, under £5?

Probably £2. But how much for the call out fee from an electrician?

"Fredxxx" wrote in message news

On 29/10/2017 08:09, Brian Reay wrote:
On 29/10/2017 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 03:05:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Bill Wright remarked:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was correctly
fully seated when I found it.

My guess would by the socket was 'loose' causing an occasional 'arc',
which burned the surrounding area. Once the process starts, it tends to
get worse with time.

I would recommend you replace the faceplate. Even if the property is
rented, the small cost really isn't worth the aggro. What does a
faceplate cost, under £5?

Probably £2. But how much for the call out fee from an electrician?

Such activities are specifically excluded in my leases. Tenants changing
things are a nightmare as it invalidates the periodic electrical tests, and
very few do a capable job. So although normally the landlord would be
potentially liable for issues caused by the fixed wiring, if it can be shown
that the tenant has willfully breached the lease conditions then that
liability shifts to them.

I had a case where a tenant replaced a single socket with a very nasty
triple. the wall was damaged but the wiring was awful with bare wires
exposed where they had stretched the wires to the new socket. Fortunately
found at a periodic inspection and corrected at the cost of the tenant.

Andrew

Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

It's likely that the 300k is a dirty/carbon track somewhere inside the
plug so it may well exhibit a lower resistance/impedance when there is
240 volts across it. It may even be such that with mains across it
there is some arcing going on.

--
Chris Green
·

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 08:42:21 -0000, "Andrew Mawson"
wrote:


Such activities are specifically excluded in my leases. Tenants changing
things are a nightmare as it invalidates the periodic electrical tests, and
very few do a capable job.

I had a case where a tenant replaced a single socket with a very nasty
triple. the wall was damaged but the wiring was awful with bare wires
exposed where they had stretched the wires to the new socket. Fortunately
found at a periodic inspection and corrected at the cost of the tenant.

JOOI if the Tenant had requested a profession conversion of the single
socket would you have considered doing that for them or charge them.
That they had attempted to alter the socket showed they needed more
outlets and a double is usually the normal arrangement .

The alternative would be a miscellaneous collection of possibly low
quality extension leads or multi way adapters with risks they entail
that in the worst instance could see a fire that destroys the
property. And unlike a socket if they know your inspector is due such
extensions may be tidied up and put away in a drawer.

I appreciate the answer could vary depending if a tenant is one who
pays up on time and respects the property or one who thinks fair wear
and tear includes allowing the kids to kick in doors etc and is always
in arrears.

G.Harman

In message , at 08:09:11 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Brian Reay remarked:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket.
Into
**** which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
**** newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket.
How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was
correctly fully seated when I found it.

My guess would by the socket was 'loose' causing an occasional 'arc',
which burned the surrounding area.

Which bit of the socket - the clip that holds the prong not having
sufficient 'grip', or a wire inside?

Once the process starts, it tends to get worse with time.

I would recommend you replace the faceplate. Even if the property is
rented, the small cost really isn't worth the aggro. What does a
faceplate cost, under £5?

I don't like to tamper with landlords' fittings, and in any case all I
went to do was "replace the fuse" (an over-simplistic diagnosis) and
only had about an hour.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was correctly
fully seated when I found it.

Poorly designed plug where the fuse contact is bad causing it to overheat
at high current. Like when the machine is heating water. Far more likely
than a poorly designed socket.

--
*Heart attacks... God's revenge for eating his animal friends

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:
How often does that happen?

It's something that I come across once or twice a year. So extrapolate
my experience (considering what I do for a living) into a population of
65M and hazard a guess:-)

But it is the chicken or egg question. Did the socket or the plug cause
the problem?

I just swap both.


--
Adam

On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:

snip

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.

That's hardly a short, you are even allowed a small current to flow
between live and earth which would be commensurate with this sort of
resistance.

On 29/10/2017 10:03, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was correctly
fully seated when I found it.

Poorly designed plug where the fuse contact is bad causing it to overheat
at high current. Like when the machine is heating water. Far more likely
than a poorly designed socket.

The same can be said for cheap sockets, where heat transmits into the
plug causing failure there.

Charring of the socket, where the plug is intact, is also indicative of
a socket fail.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
Poorly designed plug where the fuse contact is bad causing it to
overheat at high current. Like when the machine is heating water. Far
more likely than a poorly designed socket.

The same can be said for cheap sockets, where heat transmits into the
plug causing failure there.

I'd say you're less likely to find poor quality sockets, though. As they
are more likely to come from a reputable supplier.

--
*I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 10:03:50 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was correctly
fully seated when I found it.

Poorly designed plug

at least that's on-topic of "plugs going bad", but I have the exhibit in
front of me and the fuse clip is fine.

where the fuse contact is bad causing it to overheat
at high current. Like when the machine is heating water. Far more likely
than a poorly designed socket.

--
Roland Perry

In message , at 10:56:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Poorly designed plug where the fuse contact is bad causing it to
overheat at high current. Like when the machine is heating water. Far
more likely than a poorly designed socket.

The same can be said for cheap sockets, where heat transmits into the
plug causing failure there.

I'd say you're less likely to find poor quality sockets, though. As they
are more likely to come from a reputable supplier.

That's part of my question, I suppose. Does a £300 washing machine with
an "ASTA 744" moulded plug imply it might be low quality?
--
Roland Perry

wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.
--
Dave W

In message , at 12:43:44 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Dave W remarked:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.

Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.

Whether anyone is being silly or not, replacing the plug was both
necessary and sufficient to stop the RCD tripping immediately power was
applied to a switched-off washer.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 12:43:44 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Dave W remarked:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.

Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.

Whether anyone is being silly or not, replacing the plug was both
necessary and sufficient to stop the RCD tripping immediately power was
applied to a switched-off washer.

Sounds like it was tracking internally, as suggested. Check the new plug
doesn't get unduly hot when the machine is heating the water (maximum
load), and chances are the socket is OK. Or test the socket with a fan
heater, etc.

--
*The older you get, the better you realize you were.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/10/2017 12:43, Dave W wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.


He is not being silly.




--
Adam

On Sunday, 29 October 2017 12:42:56 UTC, Dave W wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.

Dave W

lol. There's always one. Or in our case here 3 or 4.


NT

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 10:11:40 +0000, ARW
coalesced the vapors of human
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:
How often does that happen?

It's something that I come across once or twice a year. So extrapolate
my experience (considering what I do for a living) into a population of
65M and hazard a guess:-)

But it is the chicken or egg question. Did the socket or the plug cause
the problem?

I just swap both.

Hear's a matched pair that confronted me in a pharmacy a while back.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/80W0jw
https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/t3N2bT
--

Graham.
%Profound_observation%

On Sunday, 29 October 2017 11:02:43 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I'd say you're less likely to find poor quality sockets, though. As they
are more likely to come from a reputable supplier.

Like Wickes?

I've had brass bits fall out of the back of their sockets!

Owain

On 29/10/2017 16:57, Graham. wrote:
On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 10:11:40 +0000, ARW
coalesced the vapors of human
experience into a viable and meaningful comprehension...

On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:
How often does that happen?

It's something that I come across once or twice a year. So extrapolate
my experience (considering what I do for a living) into a population of
65M and hazard a guess:-)

But it is the chicken or egg question. Did the socket or the plug cause
the problem?

I just swap both.

Hear's a matched pair that confronted me in a pharmacy a while back.
https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/80W0jw
https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/t3N2bT



That socket must be 50 years old!

--
Adam

ARW wrote:

Graham. wrote:

https://www.flickr.com/gp/g3zvt/80W0jw

That socket must be 50 years old!

About right, same style as those fitted in my parents house, 1967/8
build, without the scorching they seem to fetch £9 each on eBay.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_Complete=1&_nkw=mk%20ivorine

My house is a few years younger but I've replaced the last of the
crabtree sockets now, the contacts were no longer very getting a good
grip on plugs, particularly earth pins.

Probably should take my socket tester for a trip to my parents at
christmas ...

On 29/10/2017 11:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:56:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Poorly designed plug where the fuse contact is bad causing it to
overheat at high current. Like when the machine is heating water. Far
more likely than a poorly designed socket.

The same can be said for cheap sockets, where heat transmits into the
plug causing failure there.

I'd say you're less likely to find poor quality sockets, though. As they
are more likely to come from a reputable supplier.

That's part of my question, I suppose. Does a £300 washing machine with
an "ASTA 744" moulded plug imply it might be low quality?

Given they are expecting a current draw for 2kW or more, I would have
thought their plugs would be good quality, with well crimped wires.

The weakness would be the fuse and fuse holder. The fuse will also get
warm by itself with that order of current flowing, without any further help.

What's the make?

On 29/10/2017 18:10, Andy Burns wrote:

About right, same style as those fitted in my parents house, 1967/8
build, without the scorching they seem to fetch £9 each on eBay.


I really, really wish you hadn't posted that evidence that one should
never throw anything away

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On Sun, 29 Oct 2017 18:57:39 +0000, Robin wrote:

On 29/10/2017 18:10, Andy Burns wrote:

About right, same style as those fitted in my parents house, 1967/8
build, without the scorching they seem to fetch £9 each on eBay.


I really, really wish you hadn't posted that evidence that one should
never throw anything away

That's the thing isn't it ... you keep things because there is a
chance they could come in useful or they are just not broken / too
'nice' (and we all have different values of that, be it that old
phone, old PDA or nice box of screws, lumps of wood or various
fittings). Then some of them turn out to have some other value
(unobtainable spares / replacements / collectable's) often just after
you have finally thrown them away. ;-(


Cheers, T i m

Robin wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

they seem to fetch £9 each on eBay.

I really, really wish you hadn't posted that evidence that one should
never throw anything away

Adam's kicking himself at how many he's chucked in a skip ...

In message , at 18:15:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Fredxxx remarked:
I'd say you're less likely to find poor quality sockets, though. As they
are more likely to come from a reputable supplier.
That's part of my question, I suppose. Does a £300 washing machine
with an "ASTA 744" moulded plug imply it might be low quality?

Given they are expecting a current draw for 2kW or more, I would have
thought their plugs would be good quality, with well crimped wires.

The weakness would be the fuse and fuse holder. The

The fuseholder isn't in any way "loose".

fuse will also get warm by itself with that order of current flowing,
without any further help.

What's the make?

The washer was Indesit, the plug I don't know.
--
Roland Perry

On 29/10/2017 19:59, Andy Burns wrote:
Robin wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

they seem to fetch £9 each on eBay.

I really, really wish you hadn't posted that evidence that one should
never throw anything away

Adam's kicking himself at how many he's chucked in a skip ...


I'm curious if such things really sell or the adverts are just 'wishful
thinking'- especially when you see words like vintage, rare, sort (sic)
after, .....

As an aside, we find it amusing that a lot of 'vintage' stuff we see was
considered modern in our lifetime. In particular, a style of crockery
which seems to be 'sort (sic) after' was not only used for only every
day in our family but there was a second set 'for best' in a different
colour. I think both had been 'bought' with 'green shield stamps' or
something similar.

--

Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity
Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They
are depriving those in real need!

https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud

On Monday, 30 October 2017 07:12:42 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
As an aside, we find it amusing that a lot of 'vintage' stuff we see was
considered modern in our lifetime. In particular, a style of crockery
which seems to be 'sort (sic) after' was not only used for only every
day in our family but there was a second set 'for best' in a different
colour. I think both had been 'bought' with 'green shield stamps' or
something similar.

Our "best" china which came from Granny actually came from coupons with Daz.

Owain

On Sunday, 29 October 2017 19:59:12 UTC, Andy Burns wrote:
Adam's kicking himself at how many he's chucked in a skip ...

or made the apprentices dismantle during their teabreaks for the brass

Owain

In message , at 07:12:40 on Mon, 30 Oct
2017, Brian Reay remarked:

As an aside, we find it amusing that a lot of 'vintage' stuff we see
was considered modern in our lifetime.

That's because we are getting old.
--
Roland Perry

On Monday, 30 October 2017 07:12:42 UTC, Brian Reay wrote:
As an aside, we find it amusing that a lot of 'vintage' stuff we see was
considered modern in our lifetime.

I find it depressing that all the stuff I saved up long and hard for is now near worthless.

Or less than worthless and has to be paid for to be taken away. Life were simpler in t'olden days when one tin bath would see you out.

Owain

On 30/10/2017 10:52, Huge wrote:

When my M-I-L went into a home in her mid-90's we discovered, as you say,
that the contents of her house had negative value. No-one wants big brown
furniture any more. The house clearance guy we commissioned said that at
one time cabinet makers would take it for the veneers, but even that
market has gone away now. Even her treasured piano got smashed up and
thrown in a skip. And before anyone gets squeaky about that, literally
no-one wanted it.

They used to have piano smashing contests to see how long it took to
smash a piano into pieces small enough to pass through a car tyre. I
assume this peaked when record players became popular.

--
Max Demian