In article ,
Huge wrote:
They used to have piano smashing contests to see how long it took to
smash a piano into pieces small enough to pass through a car tyre. I
assume this peaked when record players became popular.

I believe the Victorians made many thousands of cheap pianos, which
acted as the "entertainment centre" of their day, and are no longer
worth having.

Yup. Commonly wood frame, rather than cast iron. And many once good early
pianos don't react well to central heating.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/10/2017 19:59, Andy Burns wrote:
Robin wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

they seem to fetch £9 each on eBay.

I really, really wish you hadn't posted that evidence that one should
never throw anything away

Adam's kicking himself at how many he's chucked in a skip ...


Yesterday I went to do a second fix. Basically the old man has rewired
the house over several decades and has now ended up in a nursing home. I
have completed the 2nd fix so his son can rent out the property.

I would say the crabtree switches and sockets in the unopened wrappers
that I used for the 2nd fix were from the 70's. I cannot find an image
of them - but curved edges, quite slim and of course in an ivory colour.

--
Adam

In article ,
ARW wrote:
I would say the crabtree switches and sockets in the unopened wrappers
that I used for the 2nd fix were from the 70's. I cannot find an image
of them - but curved edges, quite slim and of course in an ivory colour.

Are they the type where the rocker goes flush when off - but sticks out
when on? So you can switch it off with a foot - but not on?

I rather liked that design - but more the metal versions than the plastic
ones. Very popular with architects.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/10/2017 07:18, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 03:05:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, Bill Wright remarked:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
Â*Â*Â*Â* which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
Â*Â*Â*Â* newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket.

How has it done that, if the socket itself wasn't also inherently
faulty. It was provided for a washing machine and the plug was correctly
fully seated when I found it.

Well my tumble dryer's moulded on plug overheated - presumably due to
low contact pressure on the fuseholder. That in turn overheated and
damaged the socket. There was nothing wrong with the socket beforehand.

SteveW

On 30/10/2017 16:06, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Huge wrote:
They used to have piano smashing contests to see how long it took to
smash a piano into pieces small enough to pass through a car tyre. I
assume this peaked when record players became popular.

I believe the Victorians made many thousands of cheap pianos, which
acted as the "entertainment centre" of their day, and are no longer
worth having.

Yup. Commonly wood frame, rather than cast iron. And many once good early
pianos don't react well to central heating.

The cast-iron framed piano (made in Berlin in 1936) that my father's
parents passed to my parents when they married; which was then passed to
my mother's parents; then back to my parents when my sister was learning
to play; then to me and my wife when we got married; then back to my
parents when we ran out of space with three children, has been junked. I
have never played (although my wife is a good player) and that piano
meant a lot to me because its history with my grandparents.

Unfortunately a piano is a rather large and cumbersome memento.

God knows how many times I had to move it from one end of a 25' room to
the other, by myself, as my wife decided on a re-arrangement of the
living room!

SteveW

On 29/10/2017 11:26, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 10:56:47 on Sun, 29 Oct
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Poorly designed plug where the fuse contact is bad causing it to
overheat at high current. Like when the machine is heating water. Far
more likely than a poorly designed socket.

The same can be said for cheap sockets, where heat transmits into the
plug causing failure there.

I'd say you're less likely to find poor quality sockets, though. As they
are more likely to come from a reputable supplier.

That's part of my question, I suppose. Does a £300 washing machine with
an "ASTA 744" moulded plug imply it might be low quality?

Well the plug on our tumble-dryer melted badly. We were very lucky that
it didn't cause a fire. The dryer was not a cheap one - it cost £280.

SteveW

On Monday, 30 October 2017 23:39:34 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
I would say the crabtree switches and sockets in the unopened wrappers
that I used for the 2nd fix were from the 70's. I cannot find an image
of them - but curved edges, quite slim and of course in an ivory colour.

Are they the type where the rocker goes flush when off - but sticks out
when on? So you can switch it off with a foot - but not on?

I rather liked that design - but more the metal versions than the plastic
ones. Very popular with architects.

no that was the next generation

In article ,
wrote:
On Monday, 30 October 2017 23:39:34 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
ARW wrote:
I would say the crabtree switches and sockets in the unopened
wrappers that I used for the 2nd fix were from the 70's. I cannot
find an image of them - but curved edges, quite slim and of course
in an ivory colour.

Are they the type where the rocker goes flush when off - but sticks
out when on? So you can switch it off with a foot - but not on?

I rather liked that design - but more the metal versions than the
plastic ones. Very popular with architects.

no that was the next generation

Crikey. Very old then. I have the metal versions here, fitted in the 70s.
Still like the look of them. Far better than the equivalent MK. Even more
so the Crabtree grid switch system.

--
*Why doesn't Tarzan have a beard? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/10/2017 12:43, Dave W wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.

Why do you think that is silly?

Insulation resistance failures are frequently voltage dependant. That is
why insulation resistance testers carry out their resistance tests at =
500V


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29/10/2017 03:05, Bill Wright wrote:
On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket. If I was the landlord I'd
charge for that.

You could also argue the reverse - if the contacts in the socket were
tired or dirty, they could have been the source of the heating.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29/10/2017 10:11, ARW wrote:
On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:
How often does that happen?

It's something that I come across once or twice a year. So extrapolate
my experience (considering what I do for a living) into a population of
65M and hazard a guess:-)

But it is the chicken or egg question. Did the socket or the plug cause
the problem?

I just swap both.

+1

This is one of those cases where you can't easily say with certainty
where the problem started, but the proper fix is (technically) easy as
described (ignoring issues like who owns what etc).

Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be reluctant
to leave the socket in service.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 29/10/2017 18:57, Robin wrote:
On 29/10/2017 18:10, Andy Burns wrote:

About right, same style as those fitted in my parents house, 1967/8
build, without the scorching they seem to fetch £9 each on eBay.


I really, really wish you hadn't posted that evidence that one should
never throw anything away

I think you could take that as evidence that if you replace all your
tired old sockets, someone on ebay will pay handsomely to take the
resulting "waste" off your hands ;-)

(ISTR when I replaced an old Wyles NN style CU here, I was able to flog
the old type 1 MCBs for at least as much as the cost of the new CU)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be reluctant
to leave the socket in service.

Or check the overheating has stopped with a new plug.

--
*I tried to catch some fog, but I mist.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 29/10/2017 10:35, Fredxxx wrote:
On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:

snip

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.

That's hardly a short, you are even allowed a small current to flow
between live and earth which would be commensurate with this sort of
resistance.

In this particular case (i.e. a plug tested in isolation) I would expect
*no* current flow between any of the conductors! (especially when tested
at low voltage with a multimeter)

(A measurable insulation resistance on a whole circuit is a different
matter).


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 03/11/2017 10:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be reluctant
to leave the socket in service.

Or check the overheating has stopped with a new plug.

If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine - although
that is influenced by the fact that I can, and I have stock of such
things to hand.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message , at
10:22:23 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
On 29/10/2017 10:11, ARW wrote:
On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:
How often does that happen?

It's something that I come across once or twice a year. So extrapolate
my experience (considering what I do for a living) into a population of
65M and hazard a guess:-)

But it is the chicken or egg question. Did the socket or the plug cause
the problem?

I just swap both.

+1

This is one of those cases where you can't easily say with certainty
where the problem started, but the proper fix is (technically) easy as
described (ignoring issues like who owns what etc).

Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be
reluctant to leave the socket in service.

I've left instructions with the tenant to contact the landlord. The
issue arising is going to be "who pays".
--
Roland Perry

In message , at
10:42:28 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be reluctant
to leave the socket in service.

Or check the overheating has stopped with a new plug.

If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

- although that is influenced by the fact that I can, and I have stock
of such things to hand.

--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
10:42:28 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be reluctant
to leave the socket in service.

Or check the overheating has stopped with a new plug.

If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

Can't you just change it yourself? They're hardly expensive enough to
quibble over who pays. Unless getting a man in to do it.

- although that is influenced by the fact that I can, and I have stock
of such things to hand.

--
*If they arrest the Energizer Bunny, would they charge it with battery? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 11:24:05 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

Can't you just change it yourself? They're hardly expensive enough to
quibble over who pays. Unless getting a man in to do it.

On one hand I'm no longer on site (my visit was by necessity quite
short, originally asked just to change a fuse by a friend); on the other
hand I'm not inclined to start messing with a landlord's ring main
electrical fittings (even if I *will* wire a replacement plug on a
tenant's appliance).
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 11:24:05 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Can't you just change it yourself? They're hardly expensive enough to
quibble over who pays. Unless getting a man in to do it.

The landlord is a sufficiently large organisation they have their own
in-house handymen.

What I don't know is where they draw the line between that they feel
obliged to fix as part of the maintenance/management contract, versus
things they allege the tenant has broken.

On a quite separate matter, I've had a dispute with a landlord in the
past about the responsibility for replacing a toilet seat where the
hinges broke through years of un-mitigated corrosion.

It seems pretty clear they have a statutory duty to fix any faults with
the basic sanitaryware functionality, but does that include the seat? Or
moving the goalposts slightly, what if it were a lid above the seat.

Their approach to "fixing" a gas fire in the lounge which had been
declared unsafe by a gas inspection, was to simply attach a "do not use"
label, for example.
--
Roland Perry

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 29/10/2017 12:43, Dave W wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip
a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.

Why do you think that is silly?

Insulation resistance failures are frequently voltage dependant. That is
why insulation resistance testers carry out their resistance tests at =
500V

Yes sorry, true enough, but how "dramatically"?
300k at 240V is bad enough, producing almost 250mW of heat.
--
Dave W

On Friday, 3 November 2017 10:42:30 UTC, John Rumm wrote:
On 03/11/2017 10:26, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be reluctant
to leave the socket in service.

Or check the overheating has stopped with a new plug.

If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine - although
that is influenced by the fact that I can, and I have stock of such
things to hand.

Once a plug has overheated badly the socket is ruined, contact springiness gone. So even in the unlikely event of it not being fried yet, it soon will be. Always replace it, unless you like fires.


NT

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:24:05 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Can't you just change it yourself? They're hardly expensive enough to
quibble over who pays. Unless getting a man in to do it.

The landlord is a sufficiently large organisation they have their own
in-house handymen.

Likely still charged out at some silly amount. ;-)

What I don't know is where they draw the line between that they feel
obliged to fix as part of the maintenance/management contract, versus
things they allege the tenant has broken.

Sometimes it's easier just to change somethings as simple as a socket
yourself. Assuming you have the necessary skills.

On a quite separate matter, I've had a dispute with a landlord in the
past about the responsibility for replacing a toilet seat where the
hinges broke through years of un-mitigated corrosion.

It seems pretty clear they have a statutory duty to fix any faults with
the basic sanitaryware functionality, but does that include the seat? Or
moving the goalposts slightly, what if it were a lid above the seat.

I suppose it might depend on careless use of a corrosive toilet cleaner?

Their approach to "fixing" a gas fire in the lounge which had been
declared unsafe by a gas inspection, was to simply attach a "do not use"
label, for example.

Even more reason to replace the socket yourself. Given how cheap they are
- a gas fire is a different matter.

--
*I thought I wanted a career. Turns out I just wanted paychecks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Friday, 3 November 2017 14:13:09 UTC, Dave W wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 29/10/2017 12:43, Dave W wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not trip
a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.

Why do you think that is silly?

Insulation resistance failures are frequently voltage dependant. That is
why insulation resistance testers carry out their resistance tests at =
500V

Yes sorry, true enough, but how "dramatically"?
300k at 240V is bad enough, producing almost 250mW of heat.

Dramatically.


NT

In message , at 14:44:54 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:24:05 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Can't you just change it yourself? They're hardly expensive enough to
quibble over who pays. Unless getting a man in to do it.

The landlord is a sufficiently large organisation they have their own
in-house handymen.

Likely still charged out at some silly amount. ;-)

What I don't know is where they draw the line between that they feel
obliged to fix as part of the maintenance/management contract, versus
things they allege the tenant has broken.

Sometimes it's easier just to change somethings as simple as a socket
yourself. Assuming you have the necessary skills.

On a quite separate matter, I've had a dispute with a landlord in the
past about the responsibility for replacing a toilet seat where the
hinges broke through years of un-mitigated corrosion.

It seems pretty clear they have a statutory duty to fix any faults with
the basic sanitaryware functionality, but does that include the seat? Or
moving the goalposts slightly, what if it were a lid above the seat.

I suppose it might depend on careless use of a corrosive toilet cleaner?

But where is the line in the sand? Is fixing the seat, regardless, a
statutory duty for the landlord?

Their approach to "fixing" a gas fire in the lounge which had been
declared unsafe by a gas inspection, was to simply attach a "do not use"
label, for example.

Even more reason to replace the socket yourself.

Different landlord. And I didn't have the time or materials to do a
replacement on the spot.

Given how cheap they are - a gas fire is a different matter.


--
Roland Perry

In article ,
wrote:
Once a plug has overheated badly the socket is ruined, contact
springiness gone. So even in the unlikely event of it not being fried
yet, it soon will be. Always replace it, unless you like fires.

You don't need to guess. Just plug in a 3kW fan heater on full and check.

--
*To err is human. To forgive is against company policy.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , at 15:12:58 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Once a plug has overheated badly the socket is ruined, contact
springiness gone. So even in the unlikely event of it not being fried
yet, it soon will be. Always replace it, unless you like fires.

You don't need to guess. Just plug in a 3kW fan heater on full and check.

Assuming you have one handy! I don't even have an electric kettle at
home (I use a traditional one on the gas hob).
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 03 Nov 2017 07:46:10 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

On Friday, 3 November 2017 14:13:09 UTC, Dave W wrote:
"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 29/10/2017 12:43, Dave W wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 28 October 2017 23:19:50 UTC+1, Alan wrote:
On Sat, 28 Oct 2017 20:13:29 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

Having got the moulded-on plug home, it has (at cheap test-meter
voltages) a 300Kohm short between the live and earth.


Which will give a fault current of 0.00077Amps, so that would not
trip a
RCD, never mind a circuit breaker. Your fault is elsewhere.

bzzt. 300k is at 1.5v, apply 330v and R will change dramatically.

Don't be silly.

Why do you think that is silly?

Insulation resistance failures are frequently voltage dependant. That
is why insulation resistance testers carry out their resistance tests
at =
500V

Yes sorry, true enough, but how "dramatically"?
300k at 240V is bad enough, producing almost 250mW of heat.

Dramatically.


Resistors have both a maximum wattage and/or voltage rating. The voltage
rating is usually redundant for low value resistors since, for example, a
10 ohm 3 watt resistor would be burnt out in rather short order with 30v
applied (30x30/10=90 watts). Even a mere 20v would generate some 40
watts' worth of heat, way in excess of its 3W rating.

Higher values such as 300K are voltage limited even if rated to 1 watt
or more. The voltage rating with most quarter and half watt resistors
could be anywhere from 100 to 300 volts depending on its composition.
High value resistors are available with Kilovolt ratings but these are
specially designed to cope with high voltage by virtue of their much
longer body length.

The common practice is to use 2 or 3 resistors in series to make up the
required value and wattage rating where the potential difference across
the string is almost or in excess of the voltage rating of the individual
resistors, especially if subjected to dissipation close to their wattage
limits. The half watt 220K resistor used in the classic neon lamp mains
tester may only be rated for 250 or 300 volts but, allowing for the 60v
running voltage drop (90 volts or so striking voltage), the resistor only
has to dissipate around 150mW and withstand about 180 volts at most (such
as the user standing bare footed on a wet concrete floor and using a
sweaty finger tip to contact the 'earthy' end cap of the tester).

A carbonised track inside a mains plugtop, although only measuring some
300k using a typical multimeter (typical test voltage being 15v on the
high resistance ranges) will measure rather lower using a 500v megger
since the carbonised track will warm up and be subjected to voltage
breakdown with induces arcing (a negative impedance effect) which rapidly
increases voltage stress elsewhere until the whole of the carbonised
track is consumed by the arc, hence the "dramatic failure" on application
of, in this case, full mains voltage (peaking at some 350 volts every
10ms on a 50Hz supply) versus the apparently inconsequential 300K leakage
path registered by a typical multimeter using no more than a test voltage
of 15 volts.

Resistors, especially carbonised tracks, will only follow Ohm's Law so
far before they start to follow a law mediated by the negative impedance
characteristics of arc conduction due to exceeding their breakdown
voltage limit. The switch from positive to negative impedance is swift
and dramatic.

In the case of an actual resistor component, the resistor will usually
fail like a fuse in most circuits. However, a resistor created out of
carbonised plastic can use the remaining untouched plastic as 'feedstock'
to make a wider conduction path capable of blowing the plugtop fuse,
possibly even starting a fire in some situations.

If you can get a leakage resistance reading between the pins of a 13 amp
plugtop (whilst not attached to the appliance cord) using a general
purpose multimeter, that plug should be scrapped immediately and a new
plugtop fitted to the cord.


--
Johnny B Good

In message , at 16:10:31 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, Johnny B Good remarked:

(typical test voltage being 15v on the high resistance ranges)

Using a second meter to measure the voltage applied by my first meter
when checking resistance, it's 1.5 volts.

If you can get a leakage resistance reading between the pins of a 13 amp
plugtop (whilst not attached to the appliance cord) using a general
purpose multimeter, that plug should be scrapped immediately and a new
plugtop fitted to the cord.

Which is what I did, and it fixed the RCD tripping.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 03 Nov 2017 10:14:55 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 29/10/2017 03:05, Bill Wright wrote:
On 28/10/2017 20:13, Roland Perry wrote:

[1] A full fix requires the landlord to replace the wall socket. Into
which my complainant can then plug their washing machine with my
newly fitted non-moulded plug.

The washing machine has damaged the socket. If I was the landlord I'd
charge for that.

You could also argue the reverse - if the contacts in the socket were
tired or dirty, they could have been the source of the heating.

It tends to be poor contact due to tired spring contacts in the socket
rather than arcing in the plugtop that causes the damage. One of the
things to be mindful of is the plug 'walking out' of the socket due to
thermal cycling effects on heavy wattage appliances such as 3KW electric
kettles that sit on a permanently plugged in base which are particularly
prone to this effect due the frequent cycling of use through each day's
use.

It takes several months before a half millimetre gap becomes evident
with our own 3KW kettle. There's no fixed rule of thumb in regard of
frequency of checking other than to use the MK1 eyeball and, if in any
doubt, to firmly press the plugtop into its socket every so often. It
*really is* just a matter of being mindful of the potential problem and
making sure the plugtops remain fully inserted into their sockets.

--
Johnny B Good

On Friday, 3 November 2017 15:39:23 UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:12:58 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
NT:

Once a plug has overheated badly the socket is ruined, contact
springiness gone. So even in the unlikely event of it not being fried
yet, it soon will be. Always replace it, unless you like fires.

You don't need to guess.

afaik no-one suggested guessing

Just plug in a 3kW fan heater on full and check.

great, an unsafe work method that either way will produce an unsafe result. At least I know why he's in the killfile.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Friday, 3 November 2017 15:39:23 UTC, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 15:12:58 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:
NT:

Once a plug has overheated badly the socket is ruined, contact
springiness gone. So even in the unlikely event of it not being fried
yet, it soon will be. Always replace it, unless you like fires.

You don't need to guess.

afaik no-one suggested guessing

Just plug in a 3kW fan heater on full and check.

great, an unsafe work method that either way will produce an unsafe
result.

Nope, not when you check if its getting hot and turn if off if it is.

On 03/11/2017 16:50, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 16:10:31 on Fri, 3 Nov
2017, Johnny B Good remarked:

(typical test voltage being 15v on the high resistance ranges)

Using a second meter to measure the voltage applied by my first meter
when checking resistance, it's 1.5 volts.

If you can get a leakage resistance reading between the pins of a 13 amp
plugtop (whilst not attached to the appliance cord) using a general
purpose multimeter, that plug should be scrapped immediately and a new
plugtop fitted to the cord.

Which is what I did, and it fixed the RCD tripping.

But you did not dissect the plug afterwards with photos:-(

That would have made good viewing.

--
Adam

On 03/11/2017 11:01, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
10:42:28 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
Once an overheating problem like that has occurred, I would be
reluctant
to leave the socket in service.

Or check the overheating has stopped with a new plug.

If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

On the principle of preventing a dangerous situation arising, yes.

I would also advise the tenant to contact the landlord and advise them
of what has been done so that they have the opportunity to inspect and
test as required if they so want.


--
Cheers,

John.

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In message , at
19:54:52 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

On the principle of preventing a dangerous situation arising, yes.

I'm not sure most landlords would agree with amateur repairs of this
kind (or do you have some professional qualification, in which case
it's somewhat of an outlier).
--
Roland Perry

On 03/11/2017 20:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
19:54:52 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

On the principle of preventing a dangerous situation arising, yes.

I'm not sure most landlords would agree with amateur repairs of this
kind

If there was a risk to the person living there unless then repair was
done, then personally I would not be particularly concerned what the
landlord thinks. They can hardly argue it would be better to leave the
property in an unsafe condition.

Obviously circumstances will dictate how critical the repair was. If it
was a socket that could simply be abandoned and another one used instead
- then it would be better to do that and stick a note over the socket.
Then ask the landlord to get it fixed in due course. If however it was
(for example) the only socket capable of feeding a important bit of kit
(CH boiler, immersion, washing machine etc) then it would better IMHO to
get it fixed there and then.

(whether you fix it yourself, or call an emergency electrician is
another matter)

(or do you have some professional qualification, in which case
it's somewhat of an outlier).

What like a GCSE in socket fitting? ;-)

No, although I expect my domestic electrics skills would stack up fairly
well against those of many landlords.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
19:54:52 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

On the principle of preventing a dangerous situation arising, yes.

I'm not sure most landlords would agree with amateur repairs of this
kind (or do you have some professional qualification, in which case
it's somewhat of an outlier).

How do you class an amateur repair? The repair being done to a poor
standard? That isn't an amateur repair but a bodge.

Would replacing a faulty light bulb with a new one of the right type be
better done by a pro? Would it then work better than if done yourself?

However, I'd certainly not suggest you replace a socket if you think that
a task which requires a pro. And not sure you should have replaced that
plug either, since doing an 'amateur' job on that can be a safety hazard
too.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 03/11/2017 20:09, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at
19:54:52 on Fri, 3 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
If its in your own place, perhaps[1]. But if doing a job elsewhere and
you don't fancy hanging about watching a full wash cycle for the next
couple of hours its no content IMHO.

[1] Even then I would swap the socket as a matter of routine

Even if you weren't the landlord or his appointed agent?

On the principle of preventing a dangerous situation arising, yes.

I'm not sure most landlords would agree with amateur repairs of this
kind (or do you have some professional qualification, in which case
it's somewhat of an outlier).

It's that kind of thinking that can inhibit any manner of involvement in
getting stuff done.

I have a mate (2 degrees, 1 in (materials) engineering) who wouldn't
change a fuse in a plug because he believes it's borderline illegal, and
the domain of qualified electricians.

--
Cheers, Rob

In message , at
04:03:29 on Sat, 4 Nov 2017, John Rumm
remarked:
(or do you have some professional qualification, in which case
it's somewhat of an outlier).

What like a GCSE in socket fitting? ;-)

No, although I expect my domestic electrics skills would stack up
fairly well against those of many landlords.

Most landlords are investors or accountants. It's the people they employ
who have the training.
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 09:36:37 on Sat, 4 Nov
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked:

Would replacing a faulty light bulb with a new one of the right type be
better done by a pro? Would it then work better than if done yourself?

Some repairs are designed to be done by consumers. Many light bulbs not
inside something with a "no user-serviceable parts inside" sticker, for
example.

However, I'd certainly not suggest you replace a socket if you think that
a task which requires a pro. And not sure you should have replaced that
plug either, since doing an 'amateur' job on that can be a safety hazard
too.

There is clearly a substantial difference in the skills requires to
change a plug and replace a wall socket.

The main constraint in rented property, however, is "who it belongs to".
--
Roland Perry