Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

I buy citric acid crystals - lowest price I can find on ebay - seems to
work.

Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

I think the bought stuff contains citric acid

Some (e.g. kilrock) is formic acid, the gentler ones for coffee machines
use lactic acid.

On 29/09/2017 17:29, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

I use Astonish Descaler, £1 a bottle in Savers and does 5 goes. Works
really well, I think its concentrated citric acid so non toxic.

On 29/09/2017 17:29, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?Â* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.Â* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.Â* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Willco do citric acid in 500g packs for about £1.50.

On 29/09/2017 17:29, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?Â* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.Â* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.Â* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Fernox DS3 (sulphamic acid) is not cheap, £16 for 2 kg, but makes up a
large quantity, and is said to have an indicator (so it can be re-used
until exhausted). I've just bought some for a business, but they are
still on their first batch which hasn't run out yet.

In message , Bob Minchin
writes
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

I buy citric acid crystals - lowest price I can find on ebay - seems to
work.

To cut down on the need for descaler, do any of you use the lump of
stainless steel 'wire wool' in your kettles? It makes a fantastic
difference to the rate at which scale forms. All you have to remember is
to take it out of the kettle every week of so, and get rid of the scale
it has accumulated (instead of the kettle) by rinsing it under a running
tap while rolling it between the palms of your hands.
--
Ian

On 29/09/17 17:37, Andy Burns wrote:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:

I think the bought stuff contains citric acid

Some (e.g. kilrock) is formic acid, the gentler ones for coffee machines
use lactic acid.


In my experience, formic acid is damn efficient - much more than acetic.

However, for food usage (eg kettles) and bathroom cleaning, I find
citric to be the best - moderately powerful and not toxic.

In article ,
newshound writes:
On 29/09/2017 17:29, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?Â* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.Â* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.Â* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Fernox DS3 (sulphamic acid) is not cheap, £16 for 2 kg, but makes up a
large quantity, and is said to have an indicator (so it can be re-used
until exhausted). I've just bought some for a business, but they are
still on their first batch which hasn't run out yet.

I use Furnox DS3.

The 2kg tub would probably last a lifetime descaling your kettle.
(I believe they do a smaller pack too, but it's poor value for money.)
I use it for descaling plumbing fittings too, and I think a tub
lasts me 10 years. Usually buy from BES - I've actually bought
loads because other people keep asking me for it. There are
4 x 2kg tubs in a box, if you want a convenient boxed quantity.

It has an indicator dye which turns from yellow to blue/green IIRC
when the descaler is exhausted. Only time I descaled something that
required multiple doses was a secondary heat exchanger in a combi,
which had blocked with scale. It also has a smell added, so you
can quickly spot if someone tries to make a cup of tea/coffee
when you were halfway through descaling the kettle. (The other
give-away is the milk curdles instantly when you pour it in if
there's even a tiny amount of sulphamic acid left.) Beware of
the fumes - scale fizzes vigourously, and the resulting fine
spray given off from the liquid surface takes the inside off
your nose if you accidentally catch a whiff of it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 29/09/2017 20:12, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Bob Minchin
writes
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?Â* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.Â* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.Â* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

I buy citric acid crystals - lowest price I can find on ebay - seems
to work.

To cut down on the need for descaler, do any of you use the lump of
stainless steel 'wire wool' in your kettles? It makes a fantastic
difference to the rate at which scale forms. All you have to remember is
to take it out of the kettle every week of so, and get rid of the scale
it has accumulated (instead of the kettle) by rinsing it under a running
tap while rolling it between the palms of your hands.

Used to do this with old-style kettles with separate elements. On the
present "cordless" one the element is built into the bottom of the
kettle, and the kettle does not scale up to anything like the same
extent. I sometimes put the used "coffee machine" descaler into the
kettle, but in truth I don't think it really needs it. I'm not sure
whether the water has changed and is now less hard, or whether the
deposits stay in suspension and end up in the tea.

On 29/09/2017 17:29, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?Â* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.Â* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.Â* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

On holiday recently I started to fill the kettle and found pieces of
scale loose in it.

Our son dislikes the taste of tea made with hard water, so we'd used a
bottled water the night before and figure that the soft water sitting
there overnight had loosened a bit - or maybe it was just chance.

We couldn't use the kettle as it was and having nothing else to hand, I
put a bottle of vinegar in, turned it on 'til the bubbles got a bit
high, off, on again, off again, etc. After a few minutes I emptied it
out and washed it out with hot water from the tap a few times. Finally I
boiled a kettle-full of water and emptied it again.

I don't know if it will harm the kettle in the long term, but it
certainly took all the scale off.

The vinegar smell in the house took a couple of hours to disappear though.

SteveW

In message ,
newshound writes
On 29/09/2017 20:12, Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Bob Minchin
writes
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

I buy citric acid crystals - lowest price I can find on ebay - seems
to work.
To cut down on the need for descaler, do any of you use the lump of
stainless steel 'wire wool' in your kettles? It makes a fantastic
difference to the rate at which scale forms. All you have to remember
is to take it out of the kettle every week of so, and get rid of the
scale it has accumulated (instead of the kettle) by rinsing it under
a running tap while rolling it between the palms of your hands.

Used to do this with old-style kettles with separate elements. On the
present "cordless" one the element is built into the bottom of the
kettle, and the kettle does not scale up to anything like the same
extent. I sometimes put the used "coffee machine" descaler into the
kettle, but in truth I don't think it really needs it. I'm not sure
whether the water has changed and is now less hard, or whether the
deposits stay in suspension and end up in the tea.

I live just west of London, in the chalky Chiltern Hills. Kettles (all
kinds) fur-up rapidly. One boil - and you can see the scale. The 'wire
wool' thingy - plus a de-scale every once in a while - keeps the element
looking almost like new. After a de-scale, the 'spent' Kilrock K (which
is what I use) gets used to de-scale the surface of the taps etc.

I guess that in the old-style 'curly element' type of kettle, the
surface of the element is probably hotter than when the element is in
the base - and that's why they fur-up quicker.
--
Ian

Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all. Interesting that these are all
organic acids. I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

On 29/09/2017 23:33, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?Â* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.Â* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.Â* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all.Â* Interesting that these are all
organic acids.Â* I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

Safe and non-toxic. There are some acids you might refrain from putting
on your chips.

"Dan S. MacAbre" wrote in message
news
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all. Interesting that these are all
organic acids. I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

Because its not a great idea to have hydrochloric or sulphuric in food
containers.

In article ,
"Dan S. MacAbre" writes:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all. Interesting that these are all
organic acids. I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

Hydrochloric will dissolve scale much better, but it will also dissolve
the metalwork inside the kettle. I do use it where there's no metalwork.

Many descalers will dissolve the zinc out of the surface of brass,
turning it copper coloured, but generally that doesn't matter and
it's a surface effect only.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Fri, 29 Sep 2017 17:29:31 +0100, "Dan S. MacAbre"
wrote:

I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Citric acid works very well and can usually be found cheaply in shops
selling Indian food.

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 09:16:34 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
"Dan S. MacAbre" writes:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all. Interesting that these are all
organic acids. I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

Hydrochloric will dissolve scale much better, but it will also dissolve
the metalwork inside the kettle. I do use it where there's no metalwork.

I don't understand why hydrochloric acid should dissolve metals if
it's suitably diluted. But I'm pretty sure that it will, otherwise
everyone would use it due to its low cost.

My understanding is that at low concentrations, hydrochloric acid will
be fully dissociated into hydrogen ions and chloride ions. The
hydrogen ions are what any acid will provide (that's what makes
something an acid); and the chloride ions are just the same as you'd
get from some dissolved salt.

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Dan S. MacAbre" writes:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all. Interesting that these are all
organic acids. I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

Hydrochloric will dissolve scale much better, but it will also dissolve
the metalwork inside the kettle. I do use it where there's no metalwork.


The missus once thought it'd be a good idea to squirt some toilet
descaler aound the bath plug hole, like you might with bleach. It took
all the chrome plating off, but fortunately I was planning to replace
the bathroom suite soon after she did it (it was soon after our lad had
dropped a heavy toy boat in the bath, and I had to repair the resulting
hole with a penny coin underneath and some araldite). So whatever's in
that is presumably quite strong.

Many descalers will dissolve the zinc out of the surface of brass,
turning it copper coloured, but generally that doesn't matter and
it's a surface effect only.

"Caecilius" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 09:16:34 -0000 (UTC),
(Andrew Gabriel) wrote:

In article ,
"Dan S. MacAbre" writes:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'? I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as
fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it. Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at
descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger. I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all. Interesting that these are all
organic acids. I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

Hydrochloric will dissolve scale much better, but it will also dissolve
the metalwork inside the kettle. I do use it where there's no metalwork.

I don't understand why hydrochloric acid should dissolve metals if
it's suitably diluted.

Doesn't even need to be suitably diluted, works fine
with the metal tools used in bricklaying when used
to clean surplus mortar off after bricklaying.

But I'm pretty sure that it will, otherwise
everyone would use it due to its low cost.

Nope, because it isnt great in food containers.

My understanding is that at low concentrations, hydrochloric
acid will be fully dissociated into hydrogen ions and chloride
ions. The hydrogen ions are what any acid will provide

That mangles the real story.

(that's what makes something an acid); and the chloride ions
are just the same as you'd get from some dissolved salt.

Using that line it would be fine to clean glass and ceramic
food containers but isnt in fact used like that even if its cheap.

In article ,
"Dan S. MacAbre" writes:
The missus once thought it'd be a good idea to squirt some toilet
descaler aound the bath plug hole, like you might with bleach. It took
all the chrome plating off, but fortunately I was planning to replace
the bathroom suite soon after she did it (it was soon after our lad had
dropped a heavy toy boat in the bath, and I had to repair the resulting
hole with a penny coin underneath and some araldite). So whatever's in
that is presumably quite strong.

The other thing to be very careful with descaling is vitreous enamel
baths. Most descalers will take off the highly polished finish. You
really need to ensure you don't get any scale build-up in the first
place, and only use cleaning products which state they are safe for
use on vitreous enamel, at least whilst the bath still looks like new.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

I think sulphamic is pH 1 but isn't corrosive, so it's a no brainer for most descaling. I've never seen it change colour and I've been using the same 10% solution on the shower head for years. Seems to me that salts become soluble in the presence of acid but it doesn't get used up. Then again, I'm no chemist

stuart noble wrote

I think sulphamic is pH 1 but isn't corrosive,

It clearly dissolves the scale.

so it's a no brainer for most descaling. I've never seen it change colour
and I've
been using the same 10% solution on the shower head for years. Seems to me
that salts become soluble in the presence of acid but it doesn't get used
up.

It must, thats how it works.

Then again, I'm no chemist

Thats obvious.

On 29/09/2017 23:33, Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Dan S. MacAbre wrote:
Does anyone here sort of 'make their own'?Â* I buy glacial acetic acid
off ebay, because the missus uses it (well diluted, of course) as fabric
conditioner, although it doesn't really condition it AFAICT, but she
seems to like it.Â* Anyway, it's not as good as I'd imagined at descaling
kettles, even though I thought it'd be stronger.Â* I think the bought
stuff contains citric acid, but I don't want to buy a load of ebay just
to have it sit on the shelf for the rest of my life next to the Bradex
Easy-Start.

Some interesting ideas - thanks all.Â* Interesting that these are all
organic acids.Â* I've no idea why that should be, but there may be a good
reason for it.

The point is that they are *weak* acids (Google for more), which means
they are less aggressive towards metals. A strong acid is not
necessarily biologically dangerous if it is sufficiently dilute (indeed
you have hydrochloric acid in your stomach) but even dilute strong acids
can have adverse effects on metals.