I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

On 18/07/2017 21:48, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

I've been using citric acid for years to de-scale my kettle. It's
inexpensive and has caused no problems.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be easy to calculate the most economical option.


NT

On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie
bin connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling
five litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly
especially as the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex
say once every 15 tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be
economical and hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric
kettle element. Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.



hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.
NT



--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 00:35:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and
hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element.
Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be easy
to calculate the most economical option.



hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.
NT


On what is essentially a kettle element?



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie
bin connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling
five litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly
especially as the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex
say once every 15 tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be
economical and hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric
kettle element. Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.

--
Max Demian

Max Demian wrote:

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.

The gel goes watery after a year or so of sitting in the cupboard under
the sink ...

On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie
bin connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling
five litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly
especially as the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex
say once every 15 tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be
economical and hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric
kettle element. Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/

Formic acid?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kilrock-Big...dp/B003FTJ9ZU/

£10 a liter.

I rest my case.



--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

On 19/07/2017 09:34, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 00:35:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and
hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element.
Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be easy
to calculate the most economical option.



hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.
NT


On what is essentially a kettle element?



And for use in a stables?

I'd want something that as far as possible fails safe. Perhaps white
vinegar on the grounds the smell alone is a good reminder not to drink
it - but it's actually fit for human consumption[1]. c.£15 for 20 litres.

The horses might prefer apple cider vinegar but I think that's a lot
more expensive.
--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

On 19/07/17 11:24, Robin wrote:
On 19/07/2017 09:34, Bob Eager wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 00:35:33 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and
hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element.
Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be easy
to calculate the most economical option.



hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.
NT


On what is essentially a kettle element?



And for use in a stables?

I'd want something that as far as possible fails safe. Perhaps white
vinegar on the grounds the smell alone is a good reminder not to drink
it - but it's actually fit for human consumption[1]. c.£15 for 20 litres.

The horses might prefer apple cider vinegar but I think that's a lot
more expensive.



Hydrochloric acid smells bad, tastes worse and one lick is enough. it BURNS

Of course you wash the area down after its done its job.



--
Future generations will wonder in bemused amazement that the early
twenty-first centurys developed world went into hysterical panic over a
globally average temperature increase of a few tenths of a degree, and,
on the basis of gross exaggerations of highly uncertain computer
projections combined into implausible chains of inference, proceeded to
contemplate a rollback of the industrial age.

Richard Lindzen

On 19/07/2017 11:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie
bin connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling
five litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly
especially as the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex
say once every 15 tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be
economical and hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric
kettle element. Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel
that you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/

Formic acid?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kilrock-Big...dp/B003FTJ9ZU/


£10 a liter.

I rest my case.

Citric acid can be bought for under a fiver for a kilo, less in larger
quantities, it all seems to be food grade. For de-scaling a kettle I
use about three teaspoons, so it lasts a long, long time. It's a
granular powder, so if you spill it you can sweep it up. Just in case
you don't rinse it out, it won't hurt you. Hmmm, lemon tea.

For de-scaling - removing Calcium Carbonate - you don't need brick acid.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 11:13:54 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/

9.5% so you get 475cc of the acid in that 5l for £8.07, which is 16.99/litre

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


NT

On 19/07/2017 11:57, wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 11:13:54 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/

9.5% so you get 475cc of the acid in that 5l for £8.07, which is 16.99/litre

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


NT

But it's not a good choice for removing lime-scale as the reaction
product is insoluble Calcium Sulfate.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:48:59 +0100, newshound
wrote:

I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

Whatever acid you buy, buy it whilst you still can.


--
AnthonyL

On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:48:59 +0100, newshound
wrote:

I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

Citric acid would be fine, and much safer than using Hydrochloric
Acid. You might also wish to consider using a Polyphosphate dosing
system on the water supply you use.
http://www.screwfix.com/p/bwt-polyph...n-system/20315

This will minimise scale accretion on the boiling element.

Alternatively - and cheapest, is collect rainwater and use that.

On 19/07/17 11:34, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 19/07/2017 11:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, wrote:
On Tuesday, 18 July 2017 21:49:06 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie
bin connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling
five litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly
especially as the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex
say once every 15 tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be
economical and hopefully safe for what looks very like an electric
kettle element. Anyone got any advice or suggestions?

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel
that you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/


Formic acid?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Kilrock-Big...dp/B003FTJ9ZU/


£10 a liter.

I rest my case.

Citric acid can be bought for under a fiver for a kilo, less in larger
quantities, it all seems to be food grade. For de-scaling a kettle I
use about three teaspoons, so it lasts a long, long time. It's a
granular powder, so if you spill it you can sweep it up. Just in case
you don't rinse it out, it won't hurt you. Hmmm, lemon tea.

For de-scaling - removing Calcium Carbonate - you don't need brick acid.


You dont need it but it acts in seconds and if you have better things to
do, its fast effective and cheap.

The reaction is violent enough to remove the calcium chloride
continuously fromn the limescale, and expose fresh scale to fresh acid
as convection sets up circulation.



Cheers


--
"It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing
conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere"

On 19/07/17 11:57, wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 11:13:54 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/

9.5% so you get 475cc of the acid in that 5l for £8.07, which is 16.99/litre

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


sulphuric is not good stuff to use for descaling.

you end up with insoluble calcium sulfate (gypsum, plaster of paris)
which is about as much of a pain as the limescale was.



NT



--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 12:16:08 UTC+1, AnthonyL wrote:
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017 21:48:59 +0100, newshound
wrote:

I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

Whatever acid you buy, buy it whilst you still can.

Or as with drugs find some kids to sell it to you. ;-)

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 12:36:28 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 11:57, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 11:13:54 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/

9.5% so you get 475cc of the acid in that 5l for £8.07, which is 16.99/litre

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


sulphuric is not good stuff to use for descaling.

you end up with insoluble calcium sulfate (gypsum, plaster of paris)
which is about as much of a pain as the limescale was.

I've used it many times without problem. I don't know what exactly happens with the CaSO4, I presume it comes off as loose powder. But it works just fine.


NT

On 19/07/17 13:47, wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 12:36:28 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 19/07/17 11:57, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 11:13:54 UTC+1, The Natural
Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling
powers of citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment
etc. Then it would be easy to calculate the most
economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as
a gel that you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/



9.5% so you get 475cc of the acid in that 5l for £8.07, which is 16.99/litre

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


sulphuric is not good stuff to use for descaling.

you end up with insoluble calcium sulfate (gypsum, plaster of
paris) which is about as much of a pain as the limescale was.

I've used it many times without problem. I don't know what exactly
happens with the CaSO4, I presume it comes off as loose powder. But
it works just fine.

I am surprised. In all probability it does come off as a loose powder.

The problem is what happens to it later on down the drainage system.




NT



--
Truth welcomes investigation because truth knows investigation will lead
to converts. It is deception that uses all the other techniques.

On 19/07/2017 13:47, wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 12:36:28 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 11:57, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 11:13:54 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling powers of
citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment etc. Then it would be
easy to calculate the most economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/

9.5% so you get 475cc of the acid in that 5l for £8.07, which is 16.99/litre

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


sulphuric is not good stuff to use for descaling.

you end up with insoluble calcium sulfate (gypsum, plaster of paris)
which is about as much of a pain as the limescale was.

I've used it many times without problem. I don't know what exactly happens with the CaSO4, I presume it comes off as loose powder. But it works just fine.


NT

Yes, it does work and the Sulfate will come off a a precipitate, but the
reaction is slowed down by the film of Sulfate partly stopping the acid
getting to the Carbonate, particularly on a hard substrate like limescale.

So yes, if that's what you have to hand, use it (carefully), but if
you're starting from scratch, there are better options.

Cheers
--
Clive

On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 14:33:26 UTC+1, Clive Arthur wrote:
On 19/07/2017 13:47, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 12:36:28 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 11:57, tabbypurr wrote:

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


sulphuric is not good stuff to use for descaling.

you end up with insoluble calcium sulfate (gypsum, plaster of paris)
which is about as much of a pain as the limescale was.

I've used it many times without problem. I don't know what exactly happens with the CaSO4, I presume it comes off as loose powder. But it works just fine.

Yes, it does work and the Sulfate will come off a a precipitate, but the
reaction is slowed down by the film of Sulfate partly stopping the acid
getting to the Carbonate, particularly on a hard substrate like limescale.

So yes, if that's what you have to hand, use it (carefully), but if
you're starting from scratch, there are better options.

Cheers

OTOH it's a more concentrated acid than the other options [that I have here, ie HCl, acetic, phosphoric, citric], hence it does work as quickly & effectively as the others.


NT

On 18/07/2017 21:48, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

Buy a tub of Fernox DS3. Should cost less than £20 and will make up over
100 gallons of descaler.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 7/19/2017 7:22 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/07/2017 21:48, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

Buy a tub of Fernox DS3. Should cost less than £20 and will make up over
100 gallons of descaler.


I'd wondered about sulphamic acid as an alternative to citric, that's a
surprisingly reasonable price for a reputably branded product, and it
includes a corrosion inhibitor.

Thanks to all for the comments. Personally, I would be reluctant to use
hydrochloric acid on a kettle element which (I guess) could have
stainless steel cladding because of the risk of stress corrosion cracking.

On 19/07/2017 10:59, Andy Burns wrote:
Max Demian wrote:

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as a gel that
you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.

The gel goes watery after a year or so of sitting in the cupboard under
the sink ...

So does Swarfega. I've never understood why.

--
Max Demian

On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 11:34:57 +0100, Clive Arthur wrote:

For de-scaling - removing Calcium Carbonate - you don't need brick
acid.

Something that doesn't dissolve the chromium plating on the element
might help.

On 20/07/17 15:13, mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 19 Jul 2017 11:34:57 +0100, Clive Arthur wrote:

For de-scaling - removing Calcium Carbonate - you don't need brick
acid.

Something that doesn't dissolve the chromium plating on the element
might help.

In a world full of moving goalposts a punt in any direction will score a
goal.


--
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all
private property.

Karl Marx

In article ,
newshound writes:
On 7/19/2017 7:22 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/07/2017 21:48, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

Buy a tub of Fernox DS3. Should cost less than £20 and will make up over
100 gallons of descaler.


I'd wondered about sulphamic acid as an alternative to citric, that's a
surprisingly reasonable price for a reputably branded product, and it
includes a corrosion inhibitor.

Thanks to all for the comments. Personally, I would be reluctant to use
hydrochloric acid on a kettle element which (I guess) could have
stainless steel cladding because of the risk of stress corrosion cracking.

I use DS3 for this - sulphamic acid works very well, and causes minimum
damage to other things. DS3 also includes an odour so you know it's there,
and an indicator dye so you know when it's used up. The dye can stain
other dirt remaining which is not soluable in acids. Whilst you wouldn't
deliberately drink it, people often do accidentally when it gets left in
a kettle or coffee machine, and it's not a problem in small quantities.
(You will notice something wrong if you add milk and there was still
any trace of sulphamic acid present, as the milk will immediately curdle
into a lump at the bottom, and fail to whiten the drink.)
You should avoid breathing the spray given off by fizzing scale, as in
airosol form it can cause a fluid build up in the lungs some time later.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

The Natural Philosopher Wrote in message:
On 19/07/17 13:47, wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 12:36:28 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 19/07/17 11:57, tabbypurr wrote:
On Wednesday, 19 July 2017 11:13:54 UTC+1, The Natural
Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 10:56, Max Demian wrote:
On 19/07/2017 00:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/07/17 00:32, tabbypurr wrote:

I guess a chemist could tell us the relative descaling
powers of citric, conc sulphuric, nonbrewed condiment
etc. Then it would be easy to calculate the most
economical option.

hydrochloric aka brick or patio acid.

Don't forget formic acid, as in Kilrock-K; also available as
a gel that you can paint on taps and kettle spouts.


I think that hydro has the best bang for the buck

£1.60 a litre for pretty concentrated stuff

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-B...dp/B001GUA4L8/



9.5% so you get 475cc of the acid in that 5l for £8.07, which is 16.99/litre

Conc sulphuric is a fraction of that price.


sulphuric is not good stuff to use for descaling.

you end up with insoluble calcium sulfate (gypsum, plaster of
paris) which is about as much of a pain as the limescale was.

I've used it many times without problem. I don't know what exactly
happens with the CaSO4, I presume it comes off as loose powder. But
it works just fine.

I am surprised. In all probability it does come off as a loose powder.

The problem is what happens to it later on down the drainage system.




NT


Out of sight.....

--
Jim K


----Android NewsGroup Reader----
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/

On 7/22/2017 12:16 AM, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
newshound writes:
On 7/19/2017 7:22 PM, John Rumm wrote:
On 18/07/2017 21:48, newshound wrote:
I've just made a hay steamer for my livery yard (OK its a wheelie bin
connected to an Earlex walpaper steamer). They will be boiling five
litres a day so I expect it will scale up fairly quickly especially as
the water is from a bore-hole in limestone (Earlex say once every 15
tanks). My guess is that citric acid should be economical and hopefully
safe for what looks very like an electric kettle element. Anyone got any
advice or suggestions?

Buy a tub of Fernox DS3. Should cost less than £20 and will make up over
100 gallons of descaler.


I'd wondered about sulphamic acid as an alternative to citric, that's a
surprisingly reasonable price for a reputably branded product, and it
includes a corrosion inhibitor.

Thanks to all for the comments. Personally, I would be reluctant to use
hydrochloric acid on a kettle element which (I guess) could have
stainless steel cladding because of the risk of stress corrosion cracking.

I use DS3 for this - sulphamic acid works very well, and causes minimum
damage to other things. DS3 also includes an odour so you know it's there,
and an indicator dye so you know when it's used up. The dye can stain
other dirt remaining which is not soluable in acids. Whilst you wouldn't
deliberately drink it, people often do accidentally when it gets left in
a kettle or coffee machine, and it's not a problem in small quantities.
(You will notice something wrong if you add milk and there was still
any trace of sulphamic acid present, as the milk will immediately curdle
into a lump at the bottom, and fail to whiten the drink.)
You should avoid breathing the spray given off by fizzing scale, as in
airosol form it can cause a fluid build up in the lungs some time later.

The indicator is another good point in its favour, in the modern Earlex
steamer it is difficult to see the element. Point noted about aerosol,
shouldn't be an issue with the Earlex because that has a float operated
flap valve across the filler. Will be interested to see how it performs.