I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the panel is
a semi-circle.

I'm going to change them to 'etched' glass with a thin clear border. Same
as I've done with the fanlight which now includes the house number, and
looks very nice.

But because of the curve the glass place wants a template.

Obviously I can measure the outside wood running round the glass easily -
but the rebate is more difficult.

So what is the minimum overlap of the glass behind the wood into the
rebate? 3mm? 5mm? (per side) If it is too small I could adjust the
position. If too big, more of a problem. It will be laminated glass.

Rather obviously, I don't want to remove the old glass until the new is
made.

--
*It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the panel is
a semi-circle.

I'm going to change them to 'etched' glass with a thin clear border. Same
as I've done with the fanlight which now includes the house number, and
looks very nice.

But because of the curve the glass place wants a template.

Obviously I can measure the outside wood running round the glass easily -
but the rebate is more difficult.

So what is the minimum overlap of the glass behind the wood into the
rebate? 3mm? 5mm? (per side) If it is too small I could adjust the
position. If too big, more of a problem. It will be laminated glass.

Rather obviously, I don't want to remove the old glass until the new is
made.


Hi Dave
If the glass is retained by a beading (probably on the inside) you
should be able to see where the beading ends and the rebate begins.
My usual method for creating templates for 'odd-shaped' (stained-)glass
panels is to masking-tape some thinnish paper over the hole, and use a
wax crayon rubbed on the paper (a la Brass Rubbing) to pick up the
outline of the rebate. If you want to get posh, then go over it
afterwards with a Sharpie.

Then mark the template 'shows size of rebate' - and your friendly local
glass-merchant should be able to subtract the necessary 3 - 4 mm total
(left-right and up/down) to give you some wiggle-room.

If the beading's on the inside, then you could pry that out without
dislodging the glass (perhaps!), and then you could see the actual size
/ edge of the rebate. Tack the beading back in place until the new glass
is delivered. Depending on how enthusiastic they were fitting the
beading - you may or may not be able to re-use it.

Adrian

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the panel is
a semi-circle.

I'm going to change them to 'etched' glass with a thin clear border. Same
as I've done with the fanlight which now includes the house number, and
looks very nice.

But because of the curve the glass place wants a template.

Obviously I can measure the outside wood running round the glass easily -
but the rebate is more difficult.

So what is the minimum overlap of the glass behind the wood into the
rebate? 3mm? 5mm? (per side) If it is too small I could adjust the
position. If too big, more of a problem. It will be laminated glass.

Rather obviously, I don't want to remove the old glass until the new is
made.


Hi Dave
If the glass is retained by a beading (probably on the inside) you
should be able to see where the beading ends and the rebate begins.
My usual method for creating templates for 'odd-shaped' (stained-)glass
panels is to masking-tape some thinnish paper over the hole, and use a
wax crayon rubbed on the paper (a la Brass Rubbing) to pick up the
outline of the rebate. If you want to get posh, then go over it
afterwards with a Sharpie.

Then mark the template 'shows size of rebate' - and your friendly local
glass-merchant should be able to subtract the necessary 3 - 4 mm total
(left-right and up/down) to give you some wiggle-room.

If the beading's on the inside, then you could pry that out without
dislodging the glass (perhaps!), and then you could see the actual size
/ edge of the rebate. Tack the beading back in place until the new glass
is delivered. Depending on how enthusiastic they were fitting the
beading - you may or may not be able to re-use it.

There's no beading as such. Just the original moulding on the outside from
when there was a wood panel. The inside appears to be putty. But not easy
to get and accurate measurement of the full size including rebate without
hacking out the putty. But can measure the size of the glass that shows
easily. And it's the clear border which will need to be positioned neatly
relative to the moulding/beading.

(Had it been 'square' I'd have used beading on the inside too, rather than
just putty)

I've not got much confidence in my glass place - the fanlight is just a
rectangle, and that was cut 4mm off square. Which meant hacking into the
woodwork to make it fit. But they are convenient.

I'm going to give them a template made from ply - so no question if the
glass isn't the same.

Obviously it would be better to remove the glass and make sure the ply
templet fits - but the glass will take a few days to be made.

--
*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:19:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the
panel is a semi-circle.

snip

I'm going to give them a template made from ply - so no question if the
glass isn't the same.

Obviously it would be better to remove the glass and make sure the ply
templet fits - but the glass will take a few days to be made.

Dumb idea but - make two templates and use one to close the hole for the
couple of days it takes to make a new glass one?

Avpx

--
Rincewind could scream for mercy in nineteen languages, and just scream
in another forty-four.
(Interesting Times)
15:45:02 up 5:58, 5 users, load average: 0.15, 0.18, 0.18

On 09/08/2017 15:42, The Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:19:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the
panel is a semi-circle.

snip

I'm going to give them a template made from ply - so no question if the
glass isn't the same.

Obviously it would be better to remove the glass and make sure the ply
templet fits - but the glass will take a few days to be made.

Dumb idea but - make two templates and use one to close the hole for the
couple of days it takes to make a new glass one?

Avpx


I was about the say exactly the same thing! g

I've done this for people who want stained-glass panels, but also want
to install the door or window 'immediately'..

Watch out for the old putty - it tends to set like rock.
If it won't hack out easily then the best thing I've found is a 'round'
carbide tile-cutter in a Multitool - but the dust is pretty horrible..

Certainly, if you give the glass shop a template then it reduces the
potential for them cocking it up!
Adrian

Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found when he
tried to remove it, it was hard putty.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Adrian Brentnall" wrote in message
...
On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the panel
is
a semi-circle.

I'm going to change them to 'etched' glass with a thin clear border. Same
as I've done with the fanlight which now includes the house number, and
looks very nice.

But because of the curve the glass place wants a template.

Obviously I can measure the outside wood running round the glass easily -
but the rebate is more difficult.

So what is the minimum overlap of the glass behind the wood into the
rebate? 3mm? 5mm? (per side) If it is too small I could adjust the
position. If too big, more of a problem. It will be laminated glass.

Rather obviously, I don't want to remove the old glass until the new is
made.


Hi Dave
If the glass is retained by a beading (probably on the inside) you should
be able to see where the beading ends and the rebate begins.
My usual method for creating templates for 'odd-shaped' (stained-)glass
panels is to masking-tape some thinnish paper over the hole, and use a wax
crayon rubbed on the paper (a la Brass Rubbing) to pick up the outline of
the rebate. If you want to get posh, then go over it afterwards with a
Sharpie.

Then mark the template 'shows size of rebate' - and your friendly local
glass-merchant should be able to subtract the necessary 3 - 4 mm total
(left-right and up/down) to give you some wiggle-room.

If the beading's on the inside, then you could pry that out without
dislodging the glass (perhaps!), and then you could see the actual size /
edge of the rebate. Tack the beading back in place until the new glass is
delivered. Depending on how enthusiastic they were fitting the beading -
you may or may not be able to re-use it.

Adrian

Does no one have a guess as to the minimum the glass needs beyond the edge
of the outside beading to be secure? If it helps, the size to the edge of
the beading - ie the glass that shows - is 912 x 172mm.

I expect to have some wiggle room to get the border lined up with the
beading by eye as best as possible. Since nothing this age is ever
perfectly square.

--
*Why do we say something is out of whack? What is a whack?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman wrote:

Does no one have a guess as to the minimum the glass needs beyond the edge
of the outside beading to be secure?

It's been a while since I replaced any puttied glass, I'd guess it was
about 8mm

On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found when he
tried to remove it, it was hard putty.
Brian

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it will
soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very old.

On 10/08/2017 11:50, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found when he
tried to remove it, it was hard putty.
Brian

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it will
soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very old.

How about centenarian putty that was not repainted regularly so the
linseed oil has buggered off leaving stuff like mortar?

--
Robin
reply-to address is (intended to be) valid

In article ,
newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found when he
tried to remove it, it was hard putty.
Brian

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it will
soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very old.

but, unless you are very lucky, you'll crack the glass.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 8/10/2017 1:04 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-10, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found when he
tried to remove it, it was hard putty.
Brian

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it will
soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very old.

I consider this to be unlikely. The linseed oil will either have evaporated
or oxidised, and heat is not going to make any difference to that.


I originally thought so too. Except that the linseed oil does *not*
evaporate, it hardens by cross-linking.

Try it and you will find that it works. You don't need to get it
particularly warm, evidently the linseed oil polymer is a thermoplastic.
You don't need to heat it up to decomposition temperatures.

There is of course always a risk of the glass cracking. But in the OP's
case, he wanted to *replace* the glass, so cracking would not matter.

On 10/08/2017 11:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
Does no one have a guess as to the minimum the glass needs beyond the edge
of the outside beading to be secure? If it helps, the size to the edge of
the beading - ie the glass that shows - is 912 x 172mm.

I expect to have some wiggle room to get the border lined up with the
beading by eye as best as possible. Since nothing this age is ever
perfectly square.


Well - it's easy enough to guess - for example - 'minimum 1/4 inch /
6mm' - but you've actually got the door-panel there, so you could
measure it, rather than you or us guessing g

Wiggle-room 'left-to-right' is fine, don't forget that the top-to-bottom
wiggle room will need to take account of gravity, as (for simplest
installation) the glass will want to sit flat on the bottom of the
rebate - so you could argue that you only need half the up/down wiggle room.

Not sure what 'border' it is that you're mentioning?

Unless there's some added complication that we don't know about -
wouldn't the simplest solution be to take out the existing glass, and
cut two identical plywood templates that are a good fit (with
'wiggle-room' allowance) - temporarily fit one of the templates and get
the glass cut to the size of the other?
Takes out all the guesswork, doesn't it?

Adrian

On 8/10/2017 1:35 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-10, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 1:04 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-10, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found when he
tried to remove it, it was hard putty.
Brian

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it will
soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very old.

I consider this to be unlikely. The linseed oil will either have evaporated
or oxidised, and heat is not going to make any difference to that.


I originally thought so too. Except that the linseed oil does *not*
evaporate, it hardens by cross-linking.

Try it and you will find that it works. You don't need to get it
particularly warm, evidently the linseed oil polymer is a thermoplastic.

Well, knock me down with a kipper. Hopefully, I shall remember this the
next time I have to remove some elderly putty.

This is when you will find you have the wrong sort of putty!

:-)

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
Does no one have a guess as to the minimum the glass needs beyond the edge
of the outside beading to be secure? If it helps, the size to the edge of
the beading - ie the glass that shows - is 912 x 172mm.

I expect to have some wiggle room to get the border lined up with the
beading by eye as best as possible. Since nothing this age is ever
perfectly square.


Well - it's easy enough to guess - for example - 'minimum 1/4 inch /
6mm' - but you've actually got the door-panel there, so you could
measure it, rather than you or us guessing g

Not really - as I explained earlier. The mouldings on the outside of the
door are for a smaller opening than those on the inside of the door.
Didn't matter when there were wood panels there - but does with glass. As
round the edge you'd see through to the putty on the other side.

--
*The last thing I want to do is hurt you. But it's still on my list.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 1:35 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-10, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 1:04 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-10, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found
when he tried to remove it, it was hard putty. Brian

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it
will soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very
old.

I consider this to be unlikely. The linseed oil will either have
evaporated or oxidised, and heat is not going to make any difference
to that.


I originally thought so too. Except that the linseed oil does *not*
evaporate, it hardens by cross-linking.

Try it and you will find that it works. You don't need to get it
particularly warm, evidently the linseed oil polymer is a
thermoplastic.

Well, knock me down with a kipper. Hopefully, I shall remember this
the next time I have to remove some elderly putty.

This is when you will find you have the wrong sort of putty!

I'll certainly give it a try. Removing old putty is always a pain - even
when you've broken the glass out.

--
*And don't start a sentence with a conjunction *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 8/10/2017 6:35 PM, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 1:35 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-10, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 1:04 PM, Huge wrote:
On 2017-08-10, newshound wrote:
On 8/10/2017 8:47 AM, Brian Gaff wrote:
Assuming the used the beading at all, as a friend of mine found
when he tried to remove it, it was hard putty. Brian

If you warm up old hard putty with a hot air gun or a gas torch, it
will soften and become much easier to remove. Even if it is very
old.

I consider this to be unlikely. The linseed oil will either have
evaporated or oxidised, and heat is not going to make any difference
to that.


I originally thought so too. Except that the linseed oil does *not*
evaporate, it hardens by cross-linking.

Try it and you will find that it works. You don't need to get it
particularly warm, evidently the linseed oil polymer is a
thermoplastic.

Well, knock me down with a kipper. Hopefully, I shall remember this
the next time I have to remove some elderly putty.

This is when you will find you have the wrong sort of putty!

I'll certainly give it a try. Removing old putty is always a pain - even
when you've broken the glass out.

Please report back! I havn't needed to do it for ages and it certainly
worked on what must have been Victorian or Edwardian putty. Most of my
windows now are Critall and the putty just falls out.

Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 09/08/2017 15:42, The Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:19:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the
panel is a semi-circle.

snip

I'm going to give them a template made from ply - so no question if the
glass isn't the same.

Obviously it would be better to remove the glass and make sure the ply
templet fits - but the glass will take a few days to be made.

Dumb idea but - make two templates and use one to close the hole for the
couple of days it takes to make a new glass one?

Avpx


I was about the say exactly the same thing! g

I've done this for people who want stained-glass panels, but also want
to install the door or window 'immediately'..

Watch out for the old putty - it tends to set like rock.
If it won't hack out easily then the best thing I've found is a 'round'
carbide tile-cutter in a Multitool - but the dust is pretty horrible..

Certainly, if you give the glass shop a template then it reduces the
potential for them cocking it up!
Adrian



Ordinary non carbide round saw teeth cutter will do and not make ground
glass waste.

On 12/08/2017 09:35, FMurtz wrote:
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 09/08/2017 15:42, The Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 15:19:09 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Adrian Brentnall wrote:
On 09/08/2017 13:54, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
I have a wood Victorian front door. At some time, the top panels were
changed to glass - and that horrible ribbed stuff. The top of the
panel is a semi-circle.

snip

I'm going to give them a template made from ply - so no question if the
glass isn't the same.

Obviously it would be better to remove the glass and make sure the ply
templet fits - but the glass will take a few days to be made.

Dumb idea but - make two templates and use one to close the hole for the
couple of days it takes to make a new glass one?

Avpx


I was about the say exactly the same thing! g

I've done this for people who want stained-glass panels, but also want
to install the door or window 'immediately'..

Watch out for the old putty - it tends to set like rock.
If it won't hack out easily then the best thing I've found is a 'round'
carbide tile-cutter in a Multitool - but the dust is pretty horrible..

Certainly, if you give the glass shop a template then it reduces the
potential for them cocking it up!
Adrian



Ordinary non carbide round saw teeth cutter will do and not make ground
glass waste.

In the particular job I was thinking of (c1860's Church, small
stained-glass vent panels puttied into steel surrounds), the 'saw tooth'
multitools lasted about a minute before losing all of the teeth...
and it wasn't from hitting the steel surrounds, it was something very
abrasive in the putty itself.

With the carbide tool, and a bit of finesse, it was possible to cut a
groove in the rock-hard putty without doing too much damage to the lead
surrounding the panel. A stripping blade in the groove could then be
used to lever out chunks of putty, and the same knife, inserted from
inside the building, was used to free the panel.

If it was conventional glazing (no leadwork) then I guess there's a
danger of producing ground-glass 'grit' - but you'd need a mask and eye
protection anyway, with the putty dust..