I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Some obs:

* the smell is awful, more than just "post bonfire". It permeates the
entire area around Lancaster West - up to Portobello Road market,
Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove. You're reminded by the smell that there
are bodies in that tower

* I get the sense that some of the wealthy occupants of the upmarket
properties just a minute or two's walk away would complain about the
smell (and the sight), but they'd probably get lynched

* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

* several of the lower-level properties in the three "arms" that radiate
out from Grenfell Tower have balconies which are piled high with
rubbish. It's a wonder there aren't more fires. Coupled with reports
of communal escape areas at Grenfell being obstructed by dumped
furniture, etc. I'd go as far as to say the residents aren't helping
themselves and the TMO should be more proactive in not allowing this to
happen

* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1

newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.

"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.

The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).

In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.

--
*I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 11/07/2017 00:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.

There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

SteveW

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

well you need something to get you off the jake .....

On 11/07/2017 00:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 11/07/2017 00:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often
more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot of
land has to earn a profit.

There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

Yes unfortunately, non inspected non working fire doors, fly tipping and
rubbish are a national issue and have been for years There simply is nobody
going around and doing proper checks and removing fixing stuff any more.
People used to rely on this of course.
This is one big lesson that should be noted by councils everywhere as
access and safety seemed to have been forgotten in the cost cutting
outsourcing new brave world.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Some obs:

* the smell is awful, more than just "post bonfire". It permeates the
entire area around Lancaster West - up to Portobello Road market,
Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove. You're reminded by the smell that there
are bodies in that tower

* I get the sense that some of the wealthy occupants of the upmarket
properties just a minute or two's walk away would complain about the
smell (and the sight), but they'd probably get lynched

* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

* several of the lower-level properties in the three "arms" that radiate
out from Grenfell Tower have balconies which are piled high with
rubbish. It's a wonder there aren't more fires. Coupled with reports
of communal escape areas at Grenfell being obstructed by dumped
furniture, etc. I'd go as far as to say the residents aren't helping
themselves and the TMO should be more proactive in not allowing this to
happen

* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

"JoeJoe" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 11/07/2017 00:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 11/07/2017 00:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure
there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often
more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot
of
land has to earn a profit.

There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
news
Yes unfortunately, non inspected non working fire doors, fly tipping and
rubbish are a national issue and have been for years There simply is
nobody going around and doing proper checks and removing fixing stuff any
more. People used to rely on this of course.
This is one big lesson that should be noted by councils everywhere as
access and safety seemed to have been forgotten in the cost cutting
outsourcing new brave world.
Brian

It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants not
to pay more .....

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 10:28:53 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"JoeJoe" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 11/07/2017 00:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 11/07/2017 00:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure
there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often
more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot
of
land has to earn a profit.

There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In reality they could not care less.


NT

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 10:28:53 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"JoeJoe" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 11/07/2017 00:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 11/07/2017 00:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's
been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house
occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in
northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded
by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St
Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped
and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure
there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often
more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square
foot
of
land has to earn a profit.

There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really.
But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In
reality they could not care less.


NT

the more you give people the more they want and abuse it ....nothing worse
than a tenant who has bought their house and still thinks they should get
everything for nothing ....I remember an owner saying to me when something
became dangerous "you sold me the house in a bad state so you (the council)
can just repair it for me"

In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of
scumbags, leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to
live if they had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

Absolutely. Have a minimum wage big enough so everyone can buy their own
house in London. You just know it makes sense. Of course this would mean a
vast rise in taxation to pay for essential services like the police and
army. Both much needed to control the riots caused by the increased
taxation.

--
*I know a guy who's addicted to brake fluid. He says he can stop any time.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
the more you give people the more they want and abuse it

Then your mum should have brought you up better.

--
* What do they call a coffee break at the Lipton Tea Company? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 13:01:07 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 10:28:53 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really.
But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In
reality they could not care less.


NT

the more you give people the more they want and abuse it ....nothing worse
than a tenant who has bought their house and still thinks they should get
everything for nothing ....I remember an owner saying to me when something
became dangerous "you sold me the house in a bad state so you (the council)
can just repair it for me"

We've all met those. And many aren't that way.


NT

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 10:31:29 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants not
to pay more .....

But in many ways we seem to be paying more and more, and actually getting less and less.

Owain

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 10:31:29 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants
not
to pay more .....

But in many ways we seem to be paying more and more, and actually getting
less and less.

Owain

indeed ......all those HR, social workers and IT people parasites they are
....

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of
scumbags, leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to
live if they had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

Absolutely. Have a minimum wage big enough so everyone can buy their own
house in London. You just know it makes sense. Of course this would mean a
vast rise in taxation to pay for essential services like the police and
army. Both much needed to control the riots caused by the increased
taxation.

london should be abandoned to the foreigners ..... see how they like it then
.....

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
the more you give people the more they want and abuse it

Then your mum should have brought you up better.

what did you do to the last hire car you had ....?

wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 13:01:07 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
tabbypurr wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 10:28:53 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory really.
But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from both? In
reality they could not care less.


NT

the more you give people the more they want and abuse it ....nothing
worse
than a tenant who has bought their house and still thinks they should get
everything for nothing ....I remember an owner saying to me when
something
became dangerous "you sold me the house in a bad state so you (the
council)
can just repair it for me"

We've all met those. And many aren't that way.


NT

well I only had to deal with that kind .....

On 11/07/17 12:51, wrote:
You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from
both? In reality they could not care less.

Marxism and its ******* offspring socialism is ultimately a materialist
philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms of money.

Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and never a
hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or 'happy'

Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material benifit at
the lowest cost.

Human feelings didn't come into it.


--
There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale
returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact.

Mark Twain

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 15:01:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/17 12:51, tabbypurr wrote:

You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset from
both? In reality they could not care less.

Marxism and its ******* offspring socialism is ultimately a materialist
philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms of money.

Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and never a
hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or 'happy'

Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material benifit at
the lowest cost.

Human feelings didn't come into it.

Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if very uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete, spaced out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges etc etc. They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if very
uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete, spaced
out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges etc etc.
They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.

I well remember one of the first built in Aberdeen post war. Kincorth.
Mostly semi detached granite built 'bungalow' style. Looked much the same
as private ones on sale elsewhere. Might even have been the same builder.

Of course in the same way as other public buildings - like schools and so
on - any estate if not properly maintained can soon look neglected.

Not that far from here in Mitcham is a council estate with factory built
houses. Concrete slabs bolted together, and the bolts rot through.
Problems with damp from new. But with enormous gardens back and front.

--
*Change is inevitable, except from a vending machine.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 13:42:51 UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 10:31:29 UTC+1, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
It is the price you pay for decreasing bureaucracy......every body wants not
to pay more .....

But in many ways we seem to be paying more and more, and actually getting less and less.

Owain

Yes and this is why BREXIT happened being told that things are getting better when in reality for the majority things are getting worse, it's called austrity I believe although some people have managed to aviod it.

On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.

The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).



No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few
more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red
herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on
more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire
can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing,
hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the
meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP.
Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this
must be another of the things for the investigation to look into.

On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"JoeJoe" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 11/07/2017 00:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 11/07/2017 00:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure
there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often
more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot
of
land has to earn a profit.

There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates, but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.

On 11/07/2017 14:09, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of
scumbags, leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to
live if they had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

Absolutely. Have a minimum wage big enough so everyone can buy their own
house in London. You just know it makes sense. Of course this would mean a
vast rise in taxation to pay for essential services like the police and
army. Both much needed to control the riots caused by the increased
taxation.

london should be abandoned to the foreigners ..... see how they like it then

London has been abandoned to the foreigners a long time ago.

On 11/07/17 15:24, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 15:01:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 11/07/17 12:51, tabbypurr wrote:

You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset
from both? In reality they could not care less.

Marxism and its ******* offspring socialism is ultimately a
materialist philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms
of money.

Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and
never a hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or
'happy'

Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material
benifit at the lowest cost.

Human feelings didn't come into it.

Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if
very uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete,
spaced out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges
etc etc. They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.



Not the 60s tower blocks mate



NT



--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:09:30 UTC+1, JoeJoe wrote:
On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.

What would you do with people after the temporary expires?


NT

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:17:07 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 11/07/17 15:24, tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 15:01:53 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 11/07/17 12:51, tabbypurr wrote:

You reckon the 1950s slums were better? Neither is satisfactory
really. But why are local councils incapable of taking the bset
from both? In reality they could not care less.

Marxism and its ******* offspring socialism is ultimately a
materialist philosophy that can only see value judgemnts in terms
of money.

Viz te incessant whining abpout 'capitalists' and 'the rich' and
never a hint of jealousy about someone who is 'good looking' or
'happy'

Hence council housing was built to give the greatest material
benifit at the lowest cost.

Human feelings didn't come into it.

Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if
very uninspired). Prescribed bricks rather than brutalist concrete,
spaced out houses rather than terraces, unnecessarily large lounges
etc etc. They are certainly not attempts at financial efficiency.



Not the 60s tower blocks mate

No. They changed from that. But that's hardly news.


NT

On 11/07/17 16:18, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:09:30 UTC+1, JoeJoe wrote:
On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.

What would you do with people after the temporary expires?


gas chambers obviously.
nevvawozzajezza just cant wait...

NT



--
"I guess a rattlesnake ain't risponsible fer bein' a rattlesnake, but ah
puts mah heel on um jess the same if'n I catches him around mah chillun".

On Monday, 10 July 2017 21:39:54 UTC+1, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's
cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir
collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British
fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their
thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police
presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Some obs:

* the smell is awful, more than just "post bonfire". It permeates the
entire area around Lancaster West - up to Portobello Road market,
Notting Hill, Ladbroke Grove. You're reminded by the smell that there
are bodies in that tower

* I get the sense that some of the wealthy occupants of the upmarket
properties just a minute or two's walk away would complain about the
smell (and the sight), but they'd probably get lynched

* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

* several of the lower-level properties in the three "arms" that radiate
out from Grenfell Tower have balconies which are piled high with
rubbish. It's a wonder there aren't more fires. Coupled with reports
of communal escape areas at Grenfell being obstructed by dumped
furniture, etc. I'd go as far as to say the residents aren't helping
themselves and the TMO should be more proactive in not allowing this to
happen

* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services


It was the Joose that done it!????
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ower-fire.html

"JoeJoe" wrote in message
...
On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
"JoeJoe" wrote in message
o.uk...
On 11/07/2017 00:23, Steve Walker wrote:
On 11/07/2017 00:07, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* Lancaster West estate itself is actually quite pleasant. It's been
portrayed in the media as a 70s concrete hell, a dumping ground for
immigrants, asylum seekers, benefit claimants, council house
occupants,
etc. But in comparison to some of the grim council estates in
northern
British cities, it's an oasis. It's leafy and quiet and surrounded
by
streets with lovely little terrace houses and a church (St
Clement's).
There's a new community centre and leisure centre with landscaped and
paved grounds a minute's walk of the estate, bright and airy with a
pleasant cafe with a direct view of the tower remains

The meja love to portray any council estate as a dumping ground for
inadequates where the main occupation is drug dealing. And I'm sure
there
are some like that. But plenty are pretty nice places to live - often
more
interesting than cheap estates built for sale, where every square foot
of
land has to earn a profit.

There are certainly plenty of good people living in council estates,
but
around here, the majority are defeated by the minority of scumbags,
leaving the estates as places that no-one would choose to live if they
had more options.

I would hazard a guess that the same would apply to almost all council
estates in big cities.

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only be
provided as a temporary stop gap.


yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no right
to buy ......

In article ,
newshound wrote:
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.

Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.

--
*Dancing is a perpendicular expression of a horizontal desire *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:09:30 UTC+1, JoeJoe wrote:
On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.

What would you do with people after the temporary expires?

Let them eat cake?

--
*It sounds like English, but I can't understand a word you're saying.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.


yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......

Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or was
the family home at a market rent. And no reason why they shouldn't be
allowed to buy too. But also at the market rate. Provided the council is
allowed to use that money for other housing.

--
*Sherlock Holmes never said "Elementary, my dear Watson" *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:47:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:09:30 UTC+1, JoeJoe wrote:
On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.

What would you do with people after the temporary expires?

Let them eat cake?

Quite. Some could be moved on once their finances pick up, but doing so would disincentivise them to work. That could be tackled by more basic housing..

Many never see better fortunes. A fair number would either get to stay or be homeless. It's easy to point fingers with those, but the reality is a percentage of the population does not manage to sort things out, and that leaves the question of how our society wants to treat them. It has decided.

Sadly the attitude TNP shows really does happen in the 3rd world.


NT

In article ,
wrote:
Sadly the attitude TNP shows really does happen in the 3rd world.

It would seem that's what a lot of Brexiteers want us to become. Not the
poor sods who voted out thinking it would improve their lot, of course.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.