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#41
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
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#42
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
In article ,
newshound writes On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote: "DerbyBorn" wrote in message 2.222... newshound wrote in o.uk: On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote: On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote: I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police presence. It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media. Very sobering - thanks for that. +1 Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes and locations - as in the USA. The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff. Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short. Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind. In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care). No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another of the things for the investigation to look into. Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a tower block. -- bert |
#43
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
"bert" wrote in message ... In article , newshound writes On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote: "DerbyBorn" wrote in message 2.222... newshound wrote in o.uk: On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote: On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote: I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police presence. It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media. Very sobering - thanks for that. +1 Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes and locations - as in the USA. The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff. Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short. Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind. In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care). No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another of the things for the investigation to look into. Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a tower block. Crickey, that's almost sensible. |
#44
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
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#45
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:17:07 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if very uninspired). Not the 60s tower blocks mate People didn't care what they looked like, they were just grateful for an indoor cludgie. Owain |
#46
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:57:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote: Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only be provided as a temporary stop gap. yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no right to buy ...... Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or was the family home at a market rent. So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive. And no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to buy too. Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from poor. |
#47
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , newshound wrote: No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be impossible to park them all close. Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed? |
#48
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote: On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:57:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote: Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only be provided as a temporary stop gap. yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no right to buy ...... Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or was the family home at a market rent. So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive. No different to giving rebates of one sort or another to those on low incomes? And no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to buy too. Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from poor. If you get the council gets the money to build a new one, what's the difference? But also at the market rate. But why would they want to buy it at the market rate if they are living in a relatively higher end property than they can afford. But their income has risen to a point above where you'd get a council house? If yuo were renting a council property for say £500 a month and then was toild but you can buy this porperty and it'll cost you £1200 a month and in 15-25 years it will be yours what would you do ? Invent more figures? ;-) Provided the council is allowed to use that money for other housing. I think they should be allowed to, in fact I think it should be illegal not to. Thatcher made it illegal for councils to do this. And the proportion of the population living in council properties is now a fraction of then. Exactly what she intended. Move it all to the private sector and give private landlords the housing support money. Good Tory principle. -- *Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#49
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 11:15:14 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , whisky-dave wrote: On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:57:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote: Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only be provided as a temporary stop gap. yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no right to buy ...... Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or was the family home at a market rent. So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive. No different to giving rebates of one sort or another to those on low incomes? It's very differnt if you have fixed rents. if say the person renting won the lottery and refused to move out of their £500 a month council property, you'd have to evict them. And what are these rebates ? And no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to buy too. Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from poor. If you get the council gets the money to build a new one, what's the difference? You really can't tell ? Ypiou can see that selling a council house which cost 2K in the 60s and selling it for 30K today, will 30K really build a new council house. You couldn't even buy the land for that. But also at the market rate. But why would they want to buy it at the market rate if they are living in a relatively higher end property than they can afford. But their income has risen to a point above where you'd get a council house? Why should it matter to them unless you plan to force them out legally. It just couldn't work like that. If yuo were renting a council property for say £500 a month and then was toild but you can buy this porperty and it'll cost you £1200 a month and in 15-25 years it will be yours what would you do ? Invent more figures? ;-) Then come up with real ones. Show me how the money collected from the sale of council houese went to building new council houses. It this like perpetual motion ? Provided the council is allowed to use that money for other housing. I think they should be allowed to, in fact I think it should be illegal not to. Thatcher made it illegal for councils to do this. Yes I know. And the proportion of the population living in council properties is now a fraction of then. yes that's obvious and there;s a lot of landlord making a lot of money because of it. Exactly what she intended. Are yuo telling me she was a right wing conseraative , wow. Move it all to the private sector and give private landlords the housing support money. Good Tory principle. Yep, next you'll be telling me that the landlords voted tory. |
#50
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 10/07/2017 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency services It would have to be a big vehicle for the fire service not to just push it out of the way. Andy |
#51
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
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#52
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , newshound wrote: No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be impossible to park them all close. Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed? Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. |
#53
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 7/12/2017 12:35 AM, bm wrote:
"bert" wrote in message ... In article , newshound writes On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote: "DerbyBorn" wrote in message 2.222... newshound wrote in o.uk: On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote: On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote: I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police presence. It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media. Very sobering - thanks for that. +1 Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes and locations - as in the USA. The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff. Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short. Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind. In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care). No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another of the things for the investigation to look into. Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a tower block. Crickey, that's almost sensible. I think their original strategy was sensible. If they had really been aware of the risk from the cladding, they should have made more fuss, and changed the "stay put" strategy. To be fair they have a *lot* of experience in successfully dealing with fires in tower blocks. |
#54
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote:
On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote: On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , newshound wrote: No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be impossible to park them all close. Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed? Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. They said that about the twin towers too. |
#55
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote: On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote: On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , newshound wrote: No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be impossible to park them all close. Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed? Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. They said that about the twin towers too. Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about. |
#56
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 14/07/2017 12:38, newshound wrote:
On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, dennis@home wrote: On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote: On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote: On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , newshound wrote: No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be impossible to park them all close. Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed? Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. They said that about the twin towers too. Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about. Do you want to name anyone that said they would before the fires? |
#57
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
En el artículo ,
newshound escribió: Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. There was a interview in the Grauniad with the architect of the building. He thought it would have survived the fire, but it would be necessary to pull it down anyway for practical reasons (no one would want to live in it). If you look at some of the pics of the interior of the flats post-fire, the load-bearing concrete uprights look pretty badly damaged. -- (\_/) (='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick (")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West |
#58
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
En el artículo , Mike Tomlinson
escribió: We discussed this here shortly after the fire happened. Having now seen it for myself, there's simply nowhere for such a vehicle to go. Cars parked both sides with no gaps to show a blocking vehicle into. Here is the access road to the tower (Grenfell Road) , as seen by google maps, which says it all. Reports say this road was blocked by a car parked in the middle on the night of the fire. ..24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sah6TWkpQVMogpzLBLUF1lQ!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656?hl=en http://tinyurl.com/yd4bzwmr -- (\_/) (='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick (")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West |
#59
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
Reports say this road was blocked by a car parked in the middle on the night of the fire. I'd heard of the general disregard for keeping it clear during the refurb, and photos showing that, but not specifically on the night of the fire, the fire service mentioned arriving within 6 minutes of being called, no mention of problems getting there. |
#60
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 15/07/2017 01:43, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , newshound escribió: Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. There was a interview in the Grauniad with the architect of the building. He thought it would have survived the fire, but it would be necessary to pull it down anyway for practical reasons (no one would want to live in it). If you look at some of the pics of the interior of the flats post-fire, the load-bearing concrete uprights look pretty badly damaged. The investigators have evacuated the building several times because it has moved. It will collapse unless something is done to fix it. Is just a question of how soon. |
#61
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
En el artículo . com,
dennis@home escribió: The investigators have evacuated the building several times because it has moved. Do you have a citation for that? It will collapse unless something is done to fix it. Or that? -- (\_/) (='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick (")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West |
#62
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
En el artículo , Mike Tomlinson
escribió: Do you have a citation for that? Thought not. -- (\_/) (='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick (")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West |
#63
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 15/07/2017 15:28, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , Mike Tomlinson escribió: Do you have a citation for that? Thought not. Thought wrong. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7826911.html Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly. Some of us don't even have time to read every post. |
#64
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
En el artículo . com,
dennis@home escribió: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...wer-evacuated- collapse-2-times-major-concerns-movement-residents-firefighters-safety- a7826911.html Thank you. Some of us have a life outside usenet Yes, we do. -- (\_/) (='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick (")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West |
#65
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 7/14/2017 8:26 PM, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2017 12:38, newshound wrote: On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, dennis@home wrote: On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote: On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote: On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , newshound wrote: No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be impossible to park them all close. Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed? Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. They said that about the twin towers too. Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about. Do you want to name anyone that said they would before the fires? Steel framed buildings are always vulnerable to a sufficiently large fire. Those that knew what would happen with an aircraft load of fuel spread out and ignited over one of two floors of a steel framed skyscraper sensibly did not publicise the fact. Worth noting that the Bin Laden family made their money in civil engineering. |
#66
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 11:55:28 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. They said that about the twin towers too. Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core. The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually failed leading to a domino effect collaspse. -- Cheers Dave. |
#67
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 00:35:01 +0100, bm wrote:
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a tower block. Crickey, that's almost sensible. But not really correct. Most would before, a few have changed, some haven't. Our fire service doesn't neither does Durham or Northumberland but they have no high rises. -- Cheers Dave. |
#68
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Monday, 10 July 2017 22:36:04 UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:
newshound wrote in o.uk: On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote: On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote: I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police presence. It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media. Very sobering - thanks for that. +1 Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes and locations - as in the USA. They would be handy open plan spaces for fly tipping Grenfell Tower Management (from a report by an action committee.) In 1996 the entire council housing stock of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea was transferred to the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), which currently manages 9,459 properties, of which around 6,900 are tenant-occupied and 2,500 leasehold properties, and from which it collects £44 million in rent and £10 million in service charges every year. The KCTMO is unique in also being an Arms Length Management Organisation (ALMO), which means that activities between it and the council are viewed by Her Majestys Revenue and Customs as non-trading activity, so any profit arising from it will not be taxable. KCTMO has a board which at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire comprised eight residents, three council-appointed members and two independent members. Their identities have now been removed from the company website, but at the time of the fire they included: Fay Edward, the Chair and Resident Board Member since 2012 and recipient in the Queens New Years Honours List 2015 of the British Empire Medal. It was she who awarded the contract for the fatal refurbishment of Grenfell Tower Conservative councillor Maighread Condon-Simmonds, the Lady Mayor of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea until May 2017; Labour councillor Judith Blakeman, who sits on the councils Housing and Property scrutiny committee, and who in December 2015 dismissed calls by the Grenfell Action Group to investigate the KCTMO; Council-nominated Board Member Paula France, a former employee at the governments Homes and Communities Agency who has held senior positions in Circle, Thirty Three, Look Ahead, Network Housing and Shepherds Bush housing associations and now runs her own consultancy business; Independent Board Member Simon Brissenden, a Management Consulting Professional who until March of this year was employed to deliver Health and Safety Compliance in the Asset and Investment portfolio for Genesis Housing Association; Independent Board Member Anthony Preiskel, since 2012 a Non-Executive Director of the governments Homes and Communities Agency. The KCTMO is not a co-operative, which means that although it was created under the governments Housing (Right to Manage) Regulations 1994, it was set up under corporate law. And although the housing stock it manages is still owned by the council, as an ALMO (the only UK TMO, apparently, that is also an ALMO) it is exempt from Freedom of Information requests (not that councils answer these either, or when they do the information requested is redacted). The distinction between public and private means very little these days, and one look at who sits on this board shows that its run by housing professionals fronted by politicians with the acquiescence of compliant residents €“ in other words, the same privatised management structure being put in place for every other estate regeneration scheme in London. https://architectsforsocialhousing.w...ocial-housing/ A few paragraphs above this quote mentions that the owner of Cellotex is on a committee concerned with fire regulations. You wouldn't thik that this committee would have much difficulty informing a government about regulations would you? |
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 15:51:34 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, this must be another of the things for the investigation to look into. Don't let the tooth fairy steal your dreams The first thing the Incompetent In Charge said about all of this is that if there is anything to learn about this, steps will be taken. Apparently some of them were takes as far as Stoke on Trent where alternative accommodation has been offered. Does that seem sufficiently far away to you? I think the only distance problem involved is the amount of traffic in the way and/or the price of a train ticket. And of course the general malaise accruing to shock that disorientation/alienation will offer. |
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 11:08:29 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed? Don't be silly. Tower blocks don't collapse in fires! |
#71
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 23:43:52 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 11:55:28 +0100, dennis@home wrote: Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen is panels falling off. They said that about the twin towers too. Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core. The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually failed leading to a domino effect collapse. Not possible any more than it was possible to make all the collapsed steel disappear. No videos show many multiple tons of steel in the cage of debris that would have been formed atashuch a collapse. How come a frequent poster to a construction forum had no idea about that? |
#72
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 17:31:27 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 15/07/2017 15:28, Mike Tomlinson wrote: En el artÃ*culo , Mike Tomlinson escribió: Do you have a citation for that? Thought not. Thought wrong. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7826911.html Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly. Some of us don't even have time to read every post. Some of us suspect that a building that doesn't have fire alarms before it is used to kill 100 people will not have very high grade seismometers fitted to it afterwards: "Grenfell Tower has moved significantly three times since the deadly fire last month, twice forcing staff working inside to evacuate the building. Alarms monitoring structural movement of the tower have been triggered on three separate occasions since being installed, after movement of more than five millimetres was detected." Some of us also know: Reinforced concrete capable or moving a noticeable distance will maintain the cracks at said distance until they increase. But some of us have been led to believe that a steel beam 2" thick can be melted instantaneously by paraffin burning hundreds of feet above, causing spirit cooking to waft it away to an unseen place. |
#73
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 00:35:05 UTC+1, bm wrote:
"bert" wrote in message ... In article , newshound writes On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote: "DerbyBorn" wrote in message 2.222... newshound wrote in o.uk: On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote: On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote: I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police presence. It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media. Very sobering - thanks for that. +1 Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes and locations - as in the USA. The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff. Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short. Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind. In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care). No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another of the things for the investigation to look into. Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a tower block. Crickey, that's almost sensible. It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of? |
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 23:43:52 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote: Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core. The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually failed leading to a domino effect collapse. Not possible any more than it was possible to make all the collapsed steel disappear. No videos show many multiple tons of steel in the cage of debris that would have been formed atashuch a collapse. How come a frequent poster to a construction forum had no idea about that? I may regret asking this, but what is your explanation? Chris -- Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK Plant amazing Acers. |
#75
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
Tim Streater wrote:
Residents not listed, then. They were listed before the fire, thanks to wayback http://web.archive.org/web/20170617013748/http://www.kctmo.org.uk/sub/about-us/20/the-board That page is gone on the current website. |
#76
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 23/07/2017 06:39, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 17:31:27 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote: On 15/07/2017 15:28, Mike Tomlinson wrote: En el artÃ*culo , Mike Tomlinson escribió: Do you have a citation for that? Thought not. Thought wrong. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7826911.html Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly. Some of us don't even have time to read every post. Some of us suspect that a building that doesn't have fire alarms before it is used to kill 100 people will not have very high grade seismometers fitted to it afterwards: "Grenfell Tower has moved significantly three times since the deadly fire last month, twice forcing staff working inside to evacuate the building. Alarms monitoring structural movement of the tower have been triggered on three separate occasions since being installed, after movement of more than five millimetres was detected." Some of us also know: Reinforced concrete capable or moving a noticeable distance will maintain the cracks at said distance until they increase. But some of us have been led to believe that a steel beam 2" thick can be melted instantaneously by paraffin burning hundreds of feet above, causing spirit cooking to waft it away to an unseen place. Of course it can happen. Why do you think it can't? It doesn't even have to melt, steel softens long before it melts as any blacksmith will tell you. I said they would collapse well before they did even though everyone was telling me they couldn't. All that's needed is to use crappy fire insulation on the beams that gets blown off by the impact energy exposing the beams to the heat and its all over. If they had been reinforced concrete beams they would still be there now. |
#77
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 23/07/2017 06:41, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 00:35:05 UTC+1, bm wrote: "bert" wrote in message ... In article , newshound writes On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote: "DerbyBorn" wrote in message 2.222... newshound wrote in o.uk: On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote: On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote: I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this. It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a visible police presence. It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media. Very sobering - thanks for that. +1 Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes and locations - as in the USA. The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff. Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short. Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind. In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care). No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another of the things for the investigation to look into. Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a tower block. Crickey, that's almost sensible. It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of? Usually steel. The hydraulics are probably plastic and/or rubber. What do you think access platforms are made from? |
#78
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote: KCTMO has a board which at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire comprised eight residents, three council-appointed members and two independent members. Their identities have now been removed from the company website, but at the time of the fire they included: When you say "residents", does that mean tenants? If so, does that mean that the tenants had a working majority on the board at all times? [snip list of non-resident members] Residents not listed, then. Residents of the borough and tenants of the council. Not quite the same as being tenants of Grenfell. -- *IS THERE ANOTHER WORD FOR SYNONYM? Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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Grenfell Tower - a visit
On 23/07/2017 15:36, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com, "dennis@home" wrote: On 23/07/2017 06:41, Weatherlawyer wrote: It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of? Usually steel. The hydraulics are probably plastic and/or rubber. What do you think access platforms are made from? Weatherlawyer is obviously some kind of 9/11 conspiracy theorist troll. He seems to overlook that the pile of rubble from each tower was 9 stories high. They also took loads of stuff away on lorries, including lots of steel and all the evidence of super thermite bombs. ;-) |
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