On 11/07/2017 16:18, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:09:30 UTC+1, JoeJoe wrote:
On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should only
be provided as a temporary stop gap.

What would you do with people after the temporary expires?

I don't need to do anything - just like nobody did/gives anything for/to
the rest of us. When you give something like a house and/or income
(i.e. benefits) for free/very little on a long term basis, you simply
encourage them to become needy/lazy/expecting everything on a plate, and
for life.

In article ,
newshound writes
On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).


No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few
more out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red
herring. The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but
on more extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire
can't propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing,
hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the
meantime we know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP.
Not much has been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this
must be another of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their
procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any
fire in a tower block.
--
bert

"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , newshound
writes
On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important
routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who
wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).


No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.

Crickey, that's almost sensible.

On 11/07/17 17:58, wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:47:02 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
tabbypurr wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:09:30 UTC+1, JoeJoe wrote:
On 11/07/2017 10:28, Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:

social housing was a big mistake .......

Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.

What would you do with people after the temporary expires?

Let them eat cake?

Quite. Some could be moved on once their finances pick up, but doing so would disincentivise them to work. That could be tackled by more basic housing.

Many never see better fortunes. A fair number would either get to stay or be homeless. It's easy to point fingers with those, but the reality is a percentage of the population does not manage to sort things out, and that leaves the question of how our society wants to treat them. It has decided.

Sadly the attitude TNP shows really does happen in the 3rd world.


I am glad you said 'show' rather than 'hold' .

So Germany is a 3rd world country eh?



NT



--
€œA leader is best When people barely know he exists. Of a good leader,
who talks little,When his work is done, his aim fulfilled,They will say,
€œWe did this ourselves.€�

ۥ Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 16:17:07 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Council estates always feature costly measures to look pleasant (if
very uninspired).
Not the 60s tower blocks mate

People didn't care what they looked like, they were just grateful for an indoor cludgie.

Owain

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:57:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.


yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......

Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or was
the family home at a market rent.

So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive.


And no reason why they shouldn't be
allowed to buy too.

Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from poor.

On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.

Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.


Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?

In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:57:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.


yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......

Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or
was the family home at a market rent.

So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option
but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive.

No different to giving rebates of one sort or another to those on low
incomes?


And no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to buy too.

Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from
poor.

If you get the council gets the money to build a new one, what's the
difference?

But also at the market rate.

But why would they want to buy it at the market rate if they are living
in a relatively higher end property than they can afford.

But their income has risen to a point above where you'd get a council
house?

If yuo were renting a council property for say £500 a month and then was
toild but you can buy this porperty and it'll cost you £1200 a month and
in 15-25 years it will be yours what would you do ?

Invent more figures? ;-)




Provided the council is
allowed to use that money for other housing.

I think they should be allowed to, in fact I think it should be illegal not to.

Thatcher made it illegal for councils to do this. And the proportion of
the population living in council properties is now a fraction of then.
Exactly what she intended. Move it all to the private sector and give
private landlords the housing support money. Good Tory principle.

--
*Just give me chocolate and nobody gets hurt

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 11:15:14 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 17:57:05 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Jim GM4DHJ ... wrote:
Social housing as a long term solution is a big mistake and should
only be provided as a temporary stop gap.


yes and when your income rises you should be forced to move on and no
right to buy ......

Would make more sense to allow those who wanted to stay in what is or
was the family home at a market rent.

So you're saying put the rent up. I think that would be a good option
but would be difficult and adminstratly expensive.

No different to giving rebates of one sort or another to those on low
incomes?

It's very differnt if you have fixed rents. if say the person renting won the lottery and refused to move out of their £500 a month council property, you'd have to evict them.
And what are these rebates ?


And no reason why they shouldn't be allowed to buy too.

Why should they be allowed to buy which is basically taking a home from
poor.

If you get the council gets the money to build a new one, what's the
difference?

You really can't tell ?
Ypiou can see that selling a council house which cost 2K in the 60s
and selling it for 30K today, will 30K really build a new council house.
You couldn't even buy the land for that.


But also at the market rate.

But why would they want to buy it at the market rate if they are living
in a relatively higher end property than they can afford.

But their income has risen to a point above where you'd get a council
house?

Why should it matter to them unless you plan to force them out legally.
It just couldn't work like that.



If yuo were renting a council property for say £500 a month and then was
toild but you can buy this porperty and it'll cost you £1200 a month and
in 15-25 years it will be yours what would you do ?

Invent more figures? ;-)

Then come up with real ones. Show me how the money collected from the sale of council houese went to building new council houses.
It this like perpetual motion ?




Provided the council is
allowed to use that money for other housing.

I think they should be allowed to, in fact I think it should be illegal not to.

Thatcher made it illegal for councils to do this.

Yes I know.

And the proportion of
the population living in council properties is now a fraction of then.

yes that's obvious and there;s a lot of landlord making a lot of money because of it.


Exactly what she intended.

Are yuo telling me she was a right wing conseraative , wow.

Move it all to the private sector and give
private landlords the housing support money. Good Tory principle.

Yep, next you'll be telling me that the landlords voted tory.

On 10/07/2017 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services

It would have to be a big vehicle for the fire service not to just push
it out of the way.

Andy

En el artículo , Vir Campestris vir.campest
lid escribió:
On 10/07/2017 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
* one can see how easy it would have been for a single vehicle to block
Grenfell Road and cause difficulties in access for the emergency
services

It would have to be a big vehicle for the fire service not to just push
it out of the way.

We discussed this here shortly after the fire happened. Having now seen
it for myself, there's simply nowhere for such a vehicle to go. Cars
parked both sides with no gaps to show a blocking vehicle into.

In addition, there was originally access for the emergency services to
the north side of the tower via a car park. That's now gone with the
construction of a leisure centre and pedestrianisation of the access
road. Using the history feature in Google Earth is revealing.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.

Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.


Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.

On 7/12/2017 12:35 AM, bm wrote:
"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , newshound
writes
On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important
routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who
wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).


No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.

Crickey, that's almost sensible.


I think their original strategy was sensible. If they had really been
aware of the risk from the cladding, they should have made more fuss,
and changed the "stay put" strategy. To be fair they have a *lot* of
experience in successfully dealing with fires in tower blocks.

On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote:
On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.

Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.


Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.


They said that about the twin towers too.

On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote:
On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.

Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.


Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.


They said that about the twin towers too.

Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about.

On 14/07/2017 12:38, newshound wrote:
On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote:
On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets
and other kit.

Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It would be
impossible to park them all close.


Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.


They said that about the twin towers too.

Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about.

Do you want to name anyone that said they would before the fires?

En el artículo ,
newshound escribió:

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.

There was a interview in the Grauniad with the architect of the
building. He thought it would have survived the fire, but it would be
necessary to pull it down anyway for practical reasons (no one would
want to live in it).

If you look at some of the pics of the interior of the flats post-fire,
the load-bearing concrete uprights look pretty badly damaged.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

En el artículo , Mike Tomlinson
escribió:

We discussed this here shortly after the fire happened. Having now seen
it for myself, there's simply nowhere for such a vehicle to go. Cars
parked both sides with no gaps to show a blocking vehicle into.

Here is the access road to the tower (Grenfell Road) , as seen by google
maps, which says it all. Reports say this road was blocked by a car
parked in the middle on the night of the fire.


..24t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sah6TWkpQVMogpzLBLUF1lQ!2e0!7i1 3312!8i6656?hl=en


http://tinyurl.com/yd4bzwmr

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

Mike Tomlinson wrote:

Reports say this road was blocked by a car
parked in the middle on the night of the fire.

I'd heard of the general disregard for keeping it clear during the
refurb, and photos showing that, but not specifically on the night of
the fire, the fire service mentioned arriving within 6 minutes of being
called, no mention of problems getting there.

On 15/07/2017 01:43, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo ,
newshound escribió:

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would happen
is panels falling off.

There was a interview in the Grauniad with the architect of the
building. He thought it would have survived the fire, but it would be
necessary to pull it down anyway for practical reasons (no one would
want to live in it).

If you look at some of the pics of the interior of the flats post-fire,
the load-bearing concrete uprights look pretty badly damaged.


The investigators have evacuated the building several times because it
has moved.

It will collapse unless something is done to fix it.

Is just a question of how soon.

En el artículo . com,
dennis@home escribió:

The investigators have evacuated the building several times because it
has moved.

Do you have a citation for that?

It will collapse unless something is done to fix it.

Or that?

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

En el artículo , Mike Tomlinson
escribió:

Do you have a citation for that?

Thought not.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

On 15/07/2017 15:28, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , Mike Tomlinson
escribió:

Do you have a citation for that?

Thought not.


Thought wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7826911.html


Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly.

Some of us don't even have time to read every post.

En el artículo . com,
dennis@home escribió:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...wer-evacuated-
collapse-2-times-major-concerns-movement-residents-firefighters-safety-
a7826911.html

Thank you.

Some of us have a life outside usenet

Yes, we do.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) "Between two evils, I always pick
(")_(") the one I never tried before." - Mae West

On 7/14/2017 8:26 PM, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2017 12:38, newshound wrote:
On 7/14/2017 11:55 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 14/07/2017 11:31, newshound wrote:
On 7/12/2017 11:08 AM, dennis@home wrote:
On 11/07/2017 17:44, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
newshound wrote:
No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case.
But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA
sets
and other kit.

Not really surprising given how many appliances attending. It
would be
impossible to park them all close.


Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.


They said that about the twin towers too.

Not any "they" who knew what they were talking about.

Do you want to name anyone that said they would before the fires?

Steel framed buildings are always vulnerable to a sufficiently large
fire. Those that knew what would happen with an aircraft load of fuel
spread out and ignited over one of two floors of a steel framed
skyscraper sensibly did not publicise the fact. Worth noting that the
Bin Laden family made their money in civil engineering.

On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 11:55:28 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.

They said that about the twin towers too.

Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between
the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core.
The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually
failed leading to a domino effect collaspse.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Wed, 12 Jul 2017 00:35:01 +0100, bm wrote:

Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their
procedures so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder
to any
fire in a tower block.

Crickey, that's almost sensible.

But not really correct. Most would before, a few have changed, some
haven't.

Our fire service doesn't neither does Durham or Northumberland but
they have no high rises.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday, 10 July 2017 22:36:04 UTC+1, DerbyBorn wrote:
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important routes
and locations - as in the USA.

They would be handy open plan spaces for fly tipping

Grenfell Tower Management (from a report by an action committee.)

In 1996 the entire council housing stock of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea was transferred to the Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation (KCTMO), which currently manages 9,459 properties, of which around 6,900 are tenant-occupied and 2,500 leasehold properties, and from which it collects £44 million in rent and £10 million in service charges every year.

The KCTMO is unique in also being an Arms Length Management Organisation (ALMO), which means that activities between it and the council are viewed by Her Majestys Revenue and Customs as non-trading activity, so any profit arising from it will not be taxable.

KCTMO has a board which at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire comprised eight residents, three council-appointed members and two independent members. Their identities have now been removed from the company website, but at the time of the fire they included:

Fay Edward, the Chair and Resident Board Member since 2012 and recipient in the Queens New Years Honours List 2015 of the British Empire Medal. It was she who awarded the contract for the fatal refurbishment of Grenfell Tower

Conservative councillor Maighread Condon-Simmonds, the Lady Mayor of the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea until May 2017;

Labour councillor Judith Blakeman, who sits on the councils Housing and Property scrutiny committee, and who in December 2015 dismissed calls by the Grenfell Action Group to investigate the KCTMO;

Council-nominated Board Member Paula France, a former employee at the governments Homes and Communities Agency who has held senior positions in Circle, Thirty Three, Look Ahead, Network Housing and Shepherds Bush housing associations and now runs her own consultancy business;

Independent Board Member Simon Brissenden, a Management Consulting Professional who until March of this year was employed to deliver Health and Safety Compliance in the Asset and Investment portfolio for Genesis Housing Association;

Independent Board Member Anthony Preiskel, since 2012 a Non-Executive Director of the governments Homes and Communities Agency.

The KCTMO is not a co-operative, which means that although it was created under the governments Housing (Right to Manage) Regulations 1994, it was set up under corporate law. And although the housing stock it manages is still owned by the council,

as an ALMO (the only UK TMO, apparently, that is also an ALMO) it is exempt from Freedom of Information requests (not that councils answer these either, or when they do the information requested is redacted).

The distinction between public and private means very little these days, and one look at who sits on this board shows that its run by housing professionals fronted by politicians with the acquiescence of compliant residents €“ in other words, the same privatised management structure being put in place for every other estate regeneration scheme in London.

https://architectsforsocialhousing.w...ocial-housing/

A few paragraphs above this quote mentions that the owner of Cellotex is on a committee concerned with fire regulations.

You wouldn't thik that this committee would have much difficulty informing a government about regulations would you?

On Tuesday, 11 July 2017 15:51:34 UTC+1, newshound wrote:
hopefully cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time,
this
must be another of the things for the investigation to look into.

Don't let the tooth fairy steal your dreams

The first thing the Incompetent In Charge said about all of this is that if there is anything to learn about this, steps will be taken.

Apparently some of them were takes as far as Stoke on Trent where alternative accommodation has been offered.

Does that seem sufficiently far away to you?
I think the only distance problem involved is the amount of traffic in the way and/or the price of a train ticket.


And of course the general malaise accruing to shock that disorientation/alienation will offer.

On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 11:08:29 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:

Too bloody dangerous to park them all close, what if it had collapsed?

Don't be silly. Tower blocks don't collapse in fires!

On Saturday, 15 July 2017 23:43:52 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 14 Jul 2017 11:55:28 +0100, dennis@home wrote:

Reinforced concrete, it's not going to collapse. Worst that would
happen is panels falling off.

They said that about the twin towers too.

Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between
the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core.
The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually
failed leading to a domino effect collapse.

Not possible any more than it was possible to make all the collapsed steel disappear.

No videos show many multiple tons of steel in the cage of debris that would have been formed atashuch a collapse.

How come a frequent poster to a construction forum had no idea about that?

On Saturday, 15 July 2017 17:31:27 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 15/07/2017 15:28, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , Mike Tomlinson
escribió:

Do you have a citation for that?

Thought not.


Thought wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7826911.html


Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly.

Some of us don't even have time to read every post.

Some of us suspect that a building that doesn't have fire alarms before it is used to kill 100 people will not have very high grade seismometers fitted to it afterwards:

"Grenfell Tower has moved significantly three times since the deadly fire last month, twice forcing staff working inside to evacuate the building.

Alarms monitoring structural movement of the tower have been triggered on three separate occasions since being installed, after movement of more than five millimetres was detected."

Some of us also know:
Reinforced concrete capable or moving a noticeable distance will maintain the cracks at said distance until they increase.

But some of us have been led to believe that a steel beam 2" thick can be melted instantaneously by paraffin burning hundreds of feet above, causing spirit cooking to waft it away to an unseen place.

On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 00:35:05 UTC+1, bm wrote:
"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , newshound
writes
On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important
routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who
wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).


No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.

Crickey, that's almost sensible.

It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of?

Weatherlawyer wrote:

On Saturday, 15 July 2017 23:43:52 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Different construction. Trusses used to support the floors between
the outer steel support structure and inner reinforced concrete core.
The heat fo the fires softened the trusses that bent and eventually
failed leading to a domino effect collapse.

Not possible any more than it was possible to make all the collapsed steel disappear.

No videos show many multiple tons of steel in the cage of debris that would have been formed atashuch a collapse.

How come a frequent poster to a construction forum had no idea about that?

I may regret asking this, but what is your explanation?

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

Tim Streater wrote:

Residents not listed, then.

They were listed before the fire, thanks to wayback

http://web.archive.org/web/20170617013748/http://www.kctmo.org.uk/sub/about-us/20/the-board

That page is gone on the current website.

On 23/07/2017 06:39, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Saturday, 15 July 2017 17:31:27 UTC+1, dennis@home wrote:
On 15/07/2017 15:28, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artÃ*culo , Mike Tomlinson
escribió:

Do you have a citation for that?

Thought not.


Thought wrong.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7826911.html




Some of us have a life outside usenet so don't answer stuff instantly.

Some of us don't even have time to read every post.

Some of us suspect that a building that doesn't have fire alarms
before it is used to kill 100 people will not have very high grade
seismometers fitted to it afterwards:

"Grenfell Tower has moved significantly three times since the deadly
fire last month, twice forcing staff working inside to evacuate the
building.

Alarms monitoring structural movement of the tower have been
triggered on three separate occasions since being installed, after
movement of more than five millimetres was detected."

Some of us also know: Reinforced concrete capable or moving a
noticeable distance will maintain the cracks at said distance until
they increase.

But some of us have been led to believe that a steel beam 2" thick
can be melted instantaneously by paraffin burning hundreds of feet
above, causing spirit cooking to waft it away to an unseen place.


Of course it can happen.
Why do you think it can't?
It doesn't even have to melt, steel softens long before it melts as any
blacksmith will tell you.
I said they would collapse well before they did even though everyone was
telling me they couldn't.
All that's needed is to use crappy fire insulation on the beams that
gets blown off by the impact energy exposing the beams to the heat and
its all over.
If they had been reinforced concrete beams they would still be there now.

On 23/07/2017 06:41, Weatherlawyer wrote:
On Wednesday, 12 July 2017 00:35:05 UTC+1, bm wrote:
"bert" wrote in message
...
In article , newshound
writes
On 7/10/2017 11:17 PM, bm wrote:
"DerbyBorn" wrote in message
2.222...
newshound wrote in
o.uk:

On 7/10/2017 9:56 PM, Tim Watts wrote:


On 10/07/17 21:39, Mike Tomlinson wrote:

I was in London over the weekend, so went and had a look at this.
It's cordoned off as a crime scene, so the ghouls, media and
souvenir collectors can't get too close. But in a very understated
British fashion, viewing points are provided where people can gather
their thoughts, chat quietly and pay their respects. There's a
visible police presence.

It's a sobering sight seen IRL, opposed to the media.

Very sobering - thanks for that.

+1


Perhaps we need to mark and enforce "Fire Lanes" at some important
routes
and locations - as in the USA.
The way that the tower "went up" it wouldn't make much diff.
Not forgetting that the ladders were hopelessly short.
Nobody gives a **** and they were all 'sponging' springs to mind.
In 2017 it's sad but quite possible.We have parliamentarians who
wouldn't
know a fire from a gin and tonic (or care).


No, I'm with Fire Lane enforcement. Yes this was an unusual case. But
firemen were reportedly having to walk in 300 metres carrying BA sets and
other kit. Not much doubt, I think, that they might have got a few more
out with better access. Ladder length is probably a bit of a red herring.
The super big stuff is not normally used on tower blocks but on more
extended industrial sites. The standard assumption is that fire can't
propagate up the outside. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, hopefully
cladding will be sorted in the fullness of time, and in the meantime we
know that vulnerable buildings need to be evacuated ASAP. Not much has
been said about stairwell protection and ventilation, this must be another
of the things for the investigation to look into.
Apparently Fire services around the country have changed their procedures
so that they now automatically dispatch a high ladder to any fire in a
tower block.

Crickey, that's almost sensible.

It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of?


Usually steel.
The hydraulics are probably plastic and/or rubber.
What do you think access platforms are made from?

In article ,
Tim Streater wrote:
KCTMO has a board which at the time of the Grenfell Tower fire
comprised eight residents, three council-appointed members and two
independent members. Their identities have now been removed from the
company website, but at the time of the fire they included:

When you say "residents", does that mean tenants? If so, does that mean
that the tenants had a working majority on the board at all times?

[snip list of non-resident members]

Residents not listed, then.

Residents of the borough and tenants of the council. Not quite the same as
being tenants of Grenfell.

--
*IS THERE ANOTHER WORD FOR SYNONYM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 23/07/2017 15:36, Tim Streater wrote:
In article . com,
"dennis@home" wrote:

On 23/07/2017 06:41, Weatherlawyer wrote:

It is certainly laughable. What would such ladders be made of?

Usually steel.
The hydraulics are probably plastic and/or rubber.
What do you think access platforms are made from?

Weatherlawyer is obviously some kind of 9/11 conspiracy theorist troll.

He seems to overlook that the pile of rubble from each tower was 9
stories high.


They also took loads of stuff away on lorries, including lots of steel
and all the evidence of super thermite bombs. ;-)