Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way



I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.


I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

On 17/05/17 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way



I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.


I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

Resolving this to its most basic properties you want
1/. light
2/. water resistant
3/. stiff

That leads me directly to polystyrene or polyisocyanurate foam.

4"-6" thick. Used in floor and other insulation.


What you skin it with is another matter.

Polyiso is much ,more resistant to (celluelose) solvent attack, but is
much more expensive.

I've used smaller boards very successfully for building model aircraft
on. it stays flat really well



--
If I had all the money I've spent on drink...
...I'd spend it on drink.

Sir Henry (at Rawlinson's End)

On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 11:30:06 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way



I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.


I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

Measure it with a straight stick in every direction, don't need a level.
There is a very simple solution: a small pallet. It'll need sanding to get it dead level. Having used one with an added vice as a small workbench I much preferred it to a gapless sheet worktop.


NT

On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?

Cement board is pretty weather-proof. Ideal if you are going to build a
shower later and use it for your work table in the meantime.

Define what you mean by dead flat, btw.

On 17/05/17 11:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Resolving this to its most basic properties you want
1/. light
2/. water resistant
3/. stiff
4"-6" thick. Used in floor and other insulation.


What you skin it with is another matter.

Polyiso is much ,more resistant to (celluelose) solvent attack, but is
much more expensive.



Interesting idea - thanks

On 17/05/17 11:48, GB wrote:
On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:

Define what you mean by dead flat, btw.

+/-1mm across the whole surface ideally, +/-2mm at worst.

Any non flatness will transfer to anything made on it.

On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
8

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

A flush door?
They are light and stiff and cheap.

On 5/17/2017 2:00 PM, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
8

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

A flush door?
They are light and stiff and cheap.

But not particularly strong. I was going to suggest a length of kitchen
worktop (which can always be left outside if you get caught out by a
shower). But the door gives you more width and won't sag much even if
supported near the ends.

Depends a bit on what you might be doing. Door would be OK for a lot of
carpentry, not so good if you were stripping an engine.

Rather than adjustable trestles, another option is a couple of cheap
workmates. Then clamp suitable offcuts of 18 mm ply or whatever in them
to provide two straight horizontal edges at the same height on which you
can rest your worktop.

My FIL had a small slab path with a couple of dwarf walls at right
angles, he made a clever adaptor resting on them which supported his
table saw firmly, level, and at the correct height.

On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:45:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That leads me directly to polystyrene or polyisocyanurate foam.

4"-6" thick. Used in floor and other insulation.

Polyiso is being used in new houses nearby. The sheets are laid on the base
and the men are walking all over them and using heavily laden barrows.
I don't know if the sheets are those 'structural' ones, but some were in
over the void a couple of hours after I first went past and there couldn't
have been much time to put in any over(under?)all support.
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?

Yup, torsion box design - 1/2" WBP ply would probably be ok. You can
make the frame with ply braces as well if you want.

And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way

You can use a long straight edge to test for flatness in two axis, then
make a set of winding stick you check that the surface really is all in
one plane.

See

https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/maki...ticks-by-hand/

I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.

Yup, sounds doable... or even a side mount jig that hooks onto an edge.

I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

There are also ready made options to do this kind of stuff:

These with a couple of 4x2s will give you a decent surface - but not
always coplaner:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster...es-pair-103349

Ready made torsion box:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/05/17 14:00, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
8

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

A flush door?
They are light and stiff and cheap.


That's actually a rather good idea... I could still face it with ply to
get a machinable surface to take track. But you're right - very stiff
and very likely dead flat.

Cheers!

On 17/05/17 14:36, newshound wrote:
On 5/17/2017 2:00 PM, dennis@home wrote:
On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
8

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

A flush door?
They are light and stiff and cheap.

But not particularly strong. I was going to suggest a length of kitchen
worktop (which can always be left outside if you get caught out by a
shower). But the door gives you more width and won't sag much even if
supported near the ends.

Also a great idea. Why did I not think of that...


Depends a bit on what you might be doing. Door would be OK for a lot of
carpentry, not so good if you were stripping an engine.

This is carpentry - I've been inspired by a series of american
woodworkers - most have massive workshops, but one guy specialises in
using home made benches that have running tracks flushed in to act as a
table saw, router table and stuff. If I had a workshop, I'd do the 4x2"
laminated to make a 4" thick top (after truing with a planer) - but for
now I need portable.

I might even try to make it up as 2 4x4' or 4x3' tops that can be
dowelled together when needed.

Rather than adjustable trestles, another option is a couple of cheap
workmates. Then clamp suitable offcuts of 18 mm ply or whatever in them
to provide two straight horizontal edges at the same height on which you
can rest your worktop.

With my ground, even 4 feet won't sit right...

My FIL had a small slab path with a couple of dwarf walls at right
angles, he made a clever adaptor resting on them which supported his
table saw firmly, level, and at the correct height.

On 17/05/17 15:41, John Rumm wrote:
On 17/05/2017 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?

Yup, torsion box design - 1/2" WBP ply would probably be ok. You can
make the frame with ply braces as well if you want.

Thanks


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way

You can use a long straight edge to test for flatness in two axis, then
make a set of winding stick you check that the surface really is all in
one plane.

See

https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/maki...ticks-by-hand/

Thanks John. I have never heard of these.


I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.

Yup, sounds doable... or even a side mount jig that hooks onto an edge.

I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

There are also ready made options to do this kind of stuff:

These with a couple of 4x2s will give you a decent surface - but not
always coplaner:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster...es-pair-103349

I did have something like that in mind for the legs - really like the
look of those...

Ready made torsion box:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978

I wonder if that is water resistant - but it gives me some ideas...

On Wednesday, 17 May 2017 11:30:06 UTC+1, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way



I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.


I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

Recycled plastic sheets.
https://www.filcris.co.uk/category/b...sts-and-sheets

On 5/17/2017 4:38 PM, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/05/17 14:36, newshound wrote:


Rather than adjustable trestles, another option is a couple of cheap
workmates. Then clamp suitable offcuts of 18 mm ply or whatever in them
to provide two straight horizontal edges at the same height on which you
can rest your worktop.

With my ground, even 4 feet won't sit right...


If you spin the workmate about the vertical axis as well as moving it
from side to side and back and forward (if you see what I mean) you can
usually find a secure point, if the surface is not too bad. I used to
have to do this on my old and very irregular patio.

If it is really bad, you could modify a cheap workmate by removing the
bottom of two legs, and adding a third foot in between them (and still
have a system which would fold for storage). On one of mine, each pair
of legs is fitted to a cross beam about 4 inches above the ground. You
could screw a triangle of 18 mm ply to this, using the "point" of the
triangle as the ground contact point. Rounded off a bit, of course. Or a
bit of chequer plate if you have some.

On 17/05/2017 16:46, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/05/17 15:41, John Rumm wrote:

Yup, torsion box design - 1/2" WBP ply would probably be ok. You can
make the frame with ply braces as well if you want.

Thanks


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way

You can use a long straight edge to test for flatness in two axis, then
make a set of winding stick you check that the surface really is all in
one plane.

See

https://paulsellers.com/2014/05/maki...ticks-by-hand/

Thanks John. I have never heard of these.

Paul has some videos on you tube on their use....

The basic idea is that they allow you to sight one over the top of the
other and easily see any twist in what they are sat on.

You can also do the same trick with a couple of parallel battens on the
surface and running tight fine thread corner to corner - the threads
should just touch but not bend around each other.


There are also ready made options to do this kind of stuff:

These with a couple of 4x2s will give you a decent surface - but not
always coplaner:
http://www.axminster.co.uk/axminster...es-pair-103349

I did have something like that in mind for the legs - really like the
look of those...

Ready made torsion box:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978


I wonder if that is water resistant - but it gives me some ideas...

I suppose you could make up an ali framed box, and just bolt your ply
surface down to it. The wood could be sacrificial anyway - just replace
it when it gets too knackered.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 17/05/17 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way



I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.


I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

Do you have a wall which could act as one side of the work table? You
could screw battens or something else such as metal angle to the wall
and ensure that is dead level, effectively removing the need for two
legs of the table. The other two legs could be adjusted to whatever
height gives a completely level surface. The work table would be
removable, just resting on the battens (or using temporary fixtures to
assist with stability). No reason why a removable panel couldn't be used
for your sawing and router work, or maybe use the same idea with
wall-fixed battens to take the weight of one side of the saw/router.

--

Jeff

On 17/05/2017 18:25, John Rumm wrote:

The basic idea is that they allow you to sight one over the top of the
other and easily see any twist in what they are sat on.

You can also do the same trick with a couple of parallel battens on the
surface and running tight fine thread corner to corner - the threads
should just touch but not bend around each other.

I just put a couple of spirit level across.
I can even put the digital angle gauge on the levels and get an accurate
measure if needed.

On 5/17/2017 6:59 PM, Jeff Layman wrote:
On 17/05/17 11:12, Tim Watts wrote:
Hi,

Real man's DIY question here...

I don't have a proper workshop (yet), but I need to start making stuff
for the house. I have a shed that can take an 8x4' sheet on its side for
storage, just to give an idea of what I do have.

I don't have any level surfaces either outside. I do have a block paved
drive to work off, but its curved, unlevel but solid. So I'm thinking of
making a worktable top that can be sat on adjustable feet trestles to
work off.

It needs to be:

1) dead flat for gluing up;

2) water resistant (ie will not warp if it gets rained on);

3) not insanely heavy for carrying back to the shed.

3 rules out glueing up loads of 2x4" which is the traditional way to
make a monster solid bench.

2 rules out any use of MDF.

So I was wondering if anyone had any ideas? 2x4" frame with 3/4" ply
glued/screwed to the top maybe?


And how can I test that a surface is fully in one plane (ie dead flat)?
Measure it with a level in every direction (assuming we build on the
target tresles and that these can been set up first to be level). Or is
there another way



I'd also like the option to make this a modular saw bench and router
bench with a removable ply panel say around 1.5x2' which can be replaced
by identical panels that are customised to hold a circular saw and
router upside down. I guess this is just a matter of adding some extra
2x4" framing to form a window in the surface that the panel can site on
and be made solid with bolts into nutserts.


I would want to then start looking to evolve this with guide rails
and/or T-track to make it more versatile - but I'll probably start with
a plunge saw track of some sort.

All random thoughts welcome

Cheers,

Tim

Do you have a wall which could act as one side of the work table? You
could screw battens or something else such as metal angle to the wall
and ensure that is dead level, effectively removing the need for two
legs of the table. The other two legs could be adjusted to whatever
height gives a completely level surface. The work table would be
removable, just resting on the battens (or using temporary fixtures to
assist with stability). No reason why a removable panel couldn't be used
for your sawing and router work, or maybe use the same idea with
wall-fixed battens to take the weight of one side of the saw/router.

My late FIL who was a very fine carpenter did something essentially like
that in his last home. Doesn't sound like an option for the OP, but
certainly an idea I shall never forget.

On 17/05/17 15:20, PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:45:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That leads me directly to polystyrene or polyisocyanurate foam.

4"-6" thick. Used in floor and other insulation.

Polyiso is being used in new houses nearby. The sheets are laid on the base
and the men are walking all over them and using heavily laden barrows.
I don't know if the sheets are those 'structural' ones, but some were in
over the void a couple of hours after I first went past and there couldn't
have been much time to put in any over(under?)all support.

here they laid 6" thick polystrene blocks between concrete beams and
then covered that with another 6" of poly that they tagged the UFH pipes
to.

Then they chucked about 4" of concrete over the lot.

Its very strong is polystyrene of reasonable density.

--
"Socialist governments traditionally do make a financial mess. They
always run out of other people's money. It's quite a characteristic of them"

Margaret Thatcher

On Thu, 18 May 2017 02:13:41 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 17/05/17 15:20, PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:45:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That leads me directly to polystyrene or polyisocyanurate foam.

4"-6" thick. Used in floor and other insulation.

Polyiso is being used in new houses nearby. The sheets are laid on the base
and the men are walking all over them and using heavily laden barrows.
I don't know if the sheets are those 'structural' ones, but some were in
over the void a couple of hours after I first went past and there couldn't
have been much time to put in any over(under?)all support.

here they laid 6" thick polystrene blocks between concrete beams and
then covered that with another 6" of poly that they tagged the UFH pipes
to.

Then they chucked about 4" of concrete over the lot.

Its very strong is polystyrene of reasonable density.

Especially with a well-spread, 'flat', load and in compression.
ISTR it has been used under roads across soft ground. What happens if petrol
or diesel - or many other solvents - get in could be interesting!
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On 18/05/2017 02:13, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 17/05/17 15:20, PeterC wrote:
On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:45:29 +0100, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

That leads me directly to polystyrene or polyisocyanurate foam.

4"-6" thick. Used in floor and other insulation.

Polyiso is being used in new houses nearby. The sheets are laid on the
base
and the men are walking all over them and using heavily laden barrows.
I don't know if the sheets are those 'structural' ones, but some were in
over the void a couple of hours after I first went past and there
couldn't
have been much time to put in any over(under?)all support.

here they laid 6" thick polystrene blocks between concrete beams and
then covered that with another 6" of poly that they tagged the UFH pipes
to.

Then they chucked about 4" of concrete over the lot.

Its very strong is polystyrene of reasonable density.


Its not the strength its the low load factor that a mere 4" of concrete
has. You could easily push a piece of wood into the expanded polystyrene
or just the pegs they use to secure UFH pipe.
I assume they chucked in some weld mesh somewhere to stop the concrete
cracking or maybe some chopped glass?

On 17/05/17 15:41, John Rumm wrote:

Ready made torsion box:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978


Hi John,

I'm going to be bankrupt and it's your fault! ;-)


I've been drooling over their CMS modular system that goes with the
Festool version of the above:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/festool-m...e-basic-508565

You could blow 3 grand by the time you've got the router and saw!



I'm looking at that for ideas (or to do a very slow acquisition of that,
like a module a year).

It has some good points - folds down, top is HDF Valchromat which is
claimed to be "moisture resistant" by the portugese manufacturer (I
assume it is very heavily loaded with resin compared to MDF).

You could do that table easily enough - but the modules? Perhaps not so
well. As soon as you start screwing saws upside down to bits of board,
you lose the ease of adjustment - and in the case of the saw, you tend
to end up with a very wide slot to allow tilting.

Tim Watts wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978

I'm going to be bankrupt and it's your fault! ;-)

I prodded one of those last time I was in there, seemed pretty expensive
for what it was ...

On 22/05/17 11:03, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978


I'm going to be bankrupt and it's your fault! ;-)

I prodded one of those last time I was in there, seemed pretty expensive
for what it was ...


Yes - the table I have less problems making - you can add T track to
your heart's content.

It was the modular bit that caught my eye - very hard to do those well.

On Monday, 22 May 2017 11:04:01 UTC+1, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

John Rumm wrote:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978

I'm going to be bankrupt and it's your fault! ;-)

I prodded one of those last time I was in there, seemed pretty expensive
for what it was ...

Looks like you could make it for a tenth that. Or use a decent top material for a little more.


NT

On 22/05/2017 10:03, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/05/17 15:41, John Rumm wrote:

Ready made torsion box:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978


Hi John,

I'm going to be bankrupt and it's your fault! ;-)


I've been drooling over their CMS modular system that goes with the
Festool version of the above:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/festool-m...e-basic-508565

You could blow 3 grand by the time you've got the router and saw!



I'm looking at that for ideas (or to do a very slow acquisition of that,
like a module a year).

It has some good points - folds down, top is HDF Valchromat which is
claimed to be "moisture resistant" by the portugese manufacturer (I
assume it is very heavily loaded with resin compared to MDF).

You could do that table easily enough - but the modules? Perhaps not so
well. As soon as you start screwing saws upside down to bits of board,
you lose the ease of adjustment - and in the case of the saw, you tend
to end up with a very wide slot to allow tilting.


You would almost certainly be better buying a cheap table saw and
cutting a hole for it in the flush door you really want.

Then you can make an insert the same size to drop the router in.

Then ...


You need to make or buy a decent fence as cheap table saws are somewhat
lacking. The rest of the table saw is usually fine.


You can 3d print a template to make dog holes if you want.

On 22/05/2017 10:03, Tim Watts wrote:
On 17/05/17 15:41, John Rumm wrote:

Ready made torsion box:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/ujk-techn...rf-dogs-717978


Hi John,

I'm going to be bankrupt and it's your fault! ;-)


I've been drooling over their CMS modular system that goes with the
Festool version of the above:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/festool-m...e-basic-508565

You could blow 3 grand by the time you've got the router and saw!

I have seen quite a few people rave about the Festool MFT and similar
things, but never really been that keen myself. I suppose if you want
the combination of spot on accuracy and portability, then there is
something to be said for the idea.

Have a look at:

https://jayscustomcreations.com/2015...ulk-workbench/

That would seem to be a DIY option that will fit the bill nicely (even
if you build it a little smaller)

He has a few videos on these, e.g.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y116XmMWVcM

I'm looking at that for ideas (or to do a very slow acquisition of that,
like a module a year).

It has some good points - folds down, top is HDF Valchromat which is
claimed to be "moisture resistant" by the portugese manufacturer (I
assume it is very heavily loaded with resin compared to MDF).

You could do that table easily enough - but the modules? Perhaps not so
well. As soon as you start screwing saws upside down to bits of board,
you lose the ease of adjustment - and in the case of the saw, you tend
to end up with a very wide slot to allow tilting.

The option of using holes for Parf dogs (or similar) means that you can
very accurately line up a track saw track above the bench. There are
quite a few of those available now at more sensible prices than the
Festool ones. Makita, and Dewalt both have quite good ones.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Following on:

I'm happy with the idea for a bench now.

I have to do somethign that fits in a 1.7 x 3.4m shed for now, but
would be happy in a proper space later.

I'm probably going to do something on a 2x4" frame that sits on
sawhorses (the type with the slots to take 2 off 2x4" beams).

And make it into a torsion box topped with something suitable.
Later, if I manage to build a proper workshop (the full 15m2) I could
fix 4x4" legs to the frame.

So how to start, with small scale woodworking that can grow?



Table saw?

Build into bench as a lift out module? Or separate table saw that can be
lined up with bench to use latter as an outfeed?

If modular, I think it would need a pre made ali module like the Festool
one (or similar) to get a decent and safe mount, where the blade has all
the correct tilting and raising mechanisms done properly. This could be
mounted in a removable ply carrier that itself forms the "standard
module" on my bench - and thus could be removed and replaced with a ply
infill if using the bench for hammering which might damage machinery.



Router - that seems a little easier - either the cheap option to mount
to a ply module plate of my own making, or fit a router lift module to ply.


Thicknesser - that's easy, many are quite compact.


Planer/Jointer? These are expensive and big. Is there any other way to
true and square up random timber?


Cheers,
Tim

Tim Watts wrote:

Planer/Jointer? These are expensive and big. Is there any other way to
true and square up random timber?

You can make a jig for use on a table saw with toggle clamps to hold
down boards, you then run the straight edge of the jig along the fence
(or in a mitre slot) to get one straight cut on the board, then run the
cut edge of the board through the saw again to get a parallel opposite
edge, e.g. https://youtu.be/mMmFNdN7toY

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...

Table saw?


Planer/Jointer? These are expensive and big. Is there any other way to true and square
up random timber?

Saw.

You don't say how oversized this random timber is.

If you've got one straight side then just running it through the saw
against the fence will give a second parallel side.

That's assuming the timber's not bowed in either direction.

If it's bowed then If its not for show just timber for a fence shed etc then
it can simply be pinned to a piece of straight sided ply with the straight
side run against the fence.
It might even be possible to position any pins - panel pins etc so they're
positioned in the waste. and as the pins wont go all the way through in
any case it may be possible to get away with pin holes on the back
in any case.
Then the timber is levered off the ply after each operation
and the pins hammered and then pulled out (the point
is hammered to loosen them) of the ply.
This will need to be done for any operation where the face
to be be pushed against the fence isn't perfectly straight.

(more expensive and sophisticated options are of course available)

So that gives you two straight parallel sides. a) and b)

Now if the timber is straight on one of the two remaining sides, say (c),
then flipping 90 degrees and running either a) or b) along
the bed of the saw, and c) against the fence will produce a side
d) which is at 90% to a) and b).
Then bringing the fence in and running d) against the fence will
with a) or b) against the bed will produce a fourth face c) which is
again at 90% making the timber perfectly square.

Whereas If neither c) nor d) is straight then the plywood base will
first need to be brought into use again

Basically the fact that the fence, the bed of the table, and
the saw blade are, or at least should be at 90% gives you your
references when machining.

It should be pointed out maybe that in all these operations
the operator should stand to the side, rthar than directly behind
any timber being pushed through the saw. And use push sticks
Blah blah blah



michael adams

,,,

On 25/05/17 11:41, Andy Burns wrote:
Tim Watts wrote:

Planer/Jointer? These are expensive and big. Is there any other way to
true and square up random timber?

You can make a jig for use on a table saw with toggle clamps to hold
down boards, you then run the straight edge of the jig along the fence
(or in a mitre slot) to get one straight cut on the board, then run the
cut edge of the board through the saw again to get a parallel opposite
edge, e.g. https://youtu.be/mMmFNdN7toY


It's so obvious when you say it

Yes - it seems to me that constructing a versatile table saw actually
trumps everything else.

I've seen some really good ideas using fences sliding on parallel tracks
to get spot on motion inline with the blade.

Once you have that basic sled, it seems a slot of jigs can be made to
work with it, eg mitre, cross cut, and this.

Once you have a table, routing in tracks is easy and I don't see it
would take very long to construct a table top with a drop in saw module
(if accepting that buying a less cheap Festool tracksaw and its table
mounting would deal with the tricky parts of the engineering).

One could justify that on the basis it gives you a tracksaw too and if a
good table saw avoids needing a chop saw[1] and a planer, it's a win.

Yes, OK, a chop saw is better, but I've seen people using table saws for
most of the common work a chop saw does.



Next question, how big a table?

The full 8x4' is too big.

3x6' seems maybe better, or 4x5' ? What's a practical size? We could
assume full ply sheets are cut on the ground either roughly or with a
track saw - so we only need to really be able to handle what we are
actually building - say cupboards, that sort of thing.

On 25/05/2017 11:18, Tim Watts wrote:
Following on:

I'm happy with the idea for a bench now.

I have to do somethign that fits in a 1.7 x 3.4m shed for now, but
would be happy in a proper space later.

I'm probably going to do something on a 2x4" frame that sits on
sawhorses (the type with the slots to take 2 off 2x4" beams).

And make it into a torsion box topped with something suitable.
Later, if I manage to build a proper workshop (the full 15m2) I could
fix 4x4" legs to the frame.

So how to start, with small scale woodworking that can grow?



Table saw?

Build into bench as a lift out module? Or separate table saw that can be
lined up with bench to use latter as an outfeed?

I think in your circumstance I would go with a decent quality
"contractors" table saw - i.e. a portable one. You can build a table to
use for outfeed space. Later you can build a proper bench to drop it
into to give you more table space etc.


Router - that seems a little easier - either the cheap option to mount
to a ply module plate of my own making, or fit a router lift module to ply.

Or intermediate - a steel / ali router mounting plate that will let you
mount in a table. Trend do several as do others.

Thicknesser - that's easy, many are quite compact.

Look for a 4 post design with long tables. The DeWalt I use is not bad.
With a bit of ingenuity you can do a certain amount of surface planing
with a thicknesser as well, although you could look at a combined
machine.

Planer/Jointer? These are expensive and big. Is there any other way to
true and square up random timber?

See above.

You a dedicated jointer planer is nice (I got a really good small Delta
on ebay for about £60). However if you don't mind titting about with the
thicknesser you can do a fair bit on that. Start with a flat bit of ply
or similar. Then fix you rough board to it (screw from underside, hot
glue etc). Use wedges to prop up any wobbly bits. Then the thicknesser
will "copy" the flatness of the ply to the top face of your board. You
can then flip it on its own to get the other face. Square the narrow
edge on the table saw. (make a clamping board with a guide rail bar on
the bottom, so you can run a bit of odd shaped timber straight past the
blade without needing to use the fence.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/05/2017 13:08, Tim Watts wrote:

Next question, how big a table?

The full 8x4' is too big.

3x6' seems maybe better, or 4x5' ? What's a practical size? We could
assume full ply sheets are cut on the ground either roughly or with a
track saw - so we only need to really be able to handle what we are
actually building - say cupboards, that sort of thing.

Yup getting a full sheet over a fixed saw takes loads of space - I can't
do it in my workshop (about 17' x 12').

I find the table on my saw is more than adequate in width for most
things I need to do (keeping in mind the lack of space for working full
sheets on it). In a small space a roller stand or two helps but is not
ideal. I found lack of outfeed space to be the biggest problem. I built
a two part table for mine, with a small short section that is "always
there" and a fold away larger bit. The small addition (another 12" or
so) makes quite a big difference, and on its own helps with many small
to medium projects. You can get an idea from the photos:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...out_feed_table


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/05/17 19:58, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/05/2017 11:18, Tim Watts wrote:
Following on:

I'm happy with the idea for a bench now.

I have to do somethign that fits in a 1.7 x 3.4m shed for now, but
would be happy in a proper space later.

I'm probably going to do something on a 2x4" frame that sits on
sawhorses (the type with the slots to take 2 off 2x4" beams).

And make it into a torsion box topped with something suitable.
Later, if I manage to build a proper workshop (the full 15m2) I could
fix 4x4" legs to the frame.

So how to start, with small scale woodworking that can grow?



Table saw?

Build into bench as a lift out module? Or separate table saw that can be
lined up with bench to use latter as an outfeed?

I think in your circumstance I would go with a decent quality
"contractors" table saw - i.e. a portable one. You can build a table to
use for outfeed space. Later you can build a proper bench to drop it
into to give you more table space etc.

Thanks for the thoughts



Router - that seems a little easier - either the cheap option to mount
to a ply module plate of my own making, or fit a router lift module to
ply.

Or intermediate - a steel / ali router mounting plate that will let you
mount in a table. Trend do several as do others.

Thanks again

Thicknesser - that's easy, many are quite compact.

Look for a 4 post design with long tables. The DeWalt I use is not bad.
With a bit of ingenuity you can do a certain amount of surface planing
with a thicknesser as well, although you could look at a combined machine.

Planer/Jointer? These are expensive and big. Is there any other way to
true and square up random timber?

See above.

You a dedicated jointer planer is nice (I got a really good small Delta
on ebay for about £60). However if you don't mind titting about with the
thicknesser you can do a fair bit on that. Start with a flat bit of ply
or similar. Then fix you rough board to it (screw from underside, hot
glue etc). Use wedges to prop up any wobbly bits. Then the thicknesser
will "copy" the flatness of the ply to the top face of your board. You
can then flip it on its own to get the other face. Square the narrow
edge on the table saw. (make a clamping board with a guide rail bar on
the bottom, so you can run a bit of odd shaped timber straight past the
blade without needing to use the fence.


Oh - I see - that is a good idea

On 25/05/17 20:05, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/05/2017 13:08, Tim Watts wrote:

Next question, how big a table?

The full 8x4' is too big.

3x6' seems maybe better, or 4x5' ? What's a practical size? We could
assume full ply sheets are cut on the ground either roughly or with a
track saw - so we only need to really be able to handle what we are
actually building - say cupboards, that sort of thing.

Yup getting a full sheet over a fixed saw takes loads of space - I can't
do it in my workshop (about 17' x 12').

Sure - I would expect to work with half sheets or smaller typically for
most things I'm likely to do.



I find the table on my saw is more than adequate in width for most
things I need to do (keeping in mind the lack of space for working full
sheets on it). In a small space a roller stand or two helps but is not
ideal. I found lack of outfeed space to be the biggest problem. I built
a two part table for mine, with a small short section that is "always
there" and a fold away larger bit. The small addition (another 12" or
so) makes quite a big difference, and on its own helps with many small
to medium projects. You can get an idea from the photos:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...out_feed_table



Thanks - I'll have a look.

The main thing is to get something useful working fairly soon, rather
than spending 2 years making tables, cabinets, stands

But with a long term evolutionary plan in mind...

On 25/05/2017 20:30, Tim Watts wrote:
On 25/05/17 20:05, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/05/2017 13:08, Tim Watts wrote:

Next question, how big a table?

The full 8x4' is too big.

3x6' seems maybe better, or 4x5' ? What's a practical size? We could
assume full ply sheets are cut on the ground either roughly or with a
track saw - so we only need to really be able to handle what we are
actually building - say cupboards, that sort of thing.

Yup getting a full sheet over a fixed saw takes loads of space - I
can't do it in my workshop (about 17' x 12').

Sure - I would expect to work with half sheets or smaller typically for
most things I'm likely to do.



I find the table on my saw is more than adequate in width for most
things I need to do (keeping in mind the lack of space for working
full sheets on it). In a small space a roller stand or two helps but
is not ideal. I found lack of outfeed space to be the biggest problem.
I built a two part table for mine, with a small short section that is
"always there" and a fold away larger bit. The small addition (another
12" or so) makes quite a big difference, and on its own helps with
many small to medium projects. You can get an idea from the photos:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php/...out_feed_table



Thanks - I'll have a look.

The main thing is to get something useful working fairly soon, rather
than spending 2 years making tables, cabinets, stands

But with a long term evolutionary plan in mind...


Indeed. Hence why contractors table saw that can be used anywhere and
"now" is a good start. Other stuff can be built round it with time.

Then a tracksaw (either a real one, or a normal circular saw and a
sawboard), plus a spare sheet of insulating foam will serve to cut down
big sheets. Lay the foam on the floor, board on that, and set the depth
of cut to just cut into the foam through whatever you are cutting up.

My first router table was the router clamped upside down in the B&D
workmate!


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 25/05/2017 20:27, Tim Watts wrote:
On 25/05/17 19:58, John Rumm wrote:
On 25/05/2017 11:18, Tim Watts wrote:
Following on:

I'm happy with the idea for a bench now.

I have to do somethign that fits in a 1.7 x 3.4m shed for now, but
would be happy in a proper space later.

I'm probably going to do something on a 2x4" frame that sits on
sawhorses (the type with the slots to take 2 off 2x4" beams).

And make it into a torsion box topped with something suitable.
Later, if I manage to build a proper workshop (the full 15m2) I could
fix 4x4" legs to the frame.

So how to start, with small scale woodworking that can grow?



Table saw?

Build into bench as a lift out module? Or separate table saw that can be
lined up with bench to use latter as an outfeed?

I think in your circumstance I would go with a decent quality
"contractors" table saw - i.e. a portable one. You can build a table
to use for outfeed space. Later you can build a proper bench to drop
it into to give you more table space etc.

Thanks for the thoughts



Router - that seems a little easier - either the cheap option to mount
to a ply module plate of my own making, or fit a router lift module
to ply.

Or intermediate - a steel / ali router mounting plate that will let
you mount in a table. Trend do several as do others.

Thanks again

Thicknesser - that's easy, many are quite compact.

Look for a 4 post design with long tables. The DeWalt I use is not
bad. With a bit of ingenuity you can do a certain amount of surface
planing with a thicknesser as well, although you could look at a
combined machine.

Planer/Jointer? These are expensive and big. Is there any other way to
true and square up random timber?

See above.

You a dedicated jointer planer is nice (I got a really good small
Delta on ebay for about £60). However if you don't mind titting about
with the thicknesser you can do a fair bit on that. Start with a flat
bit of ply or similar. Then fix you rough board to it (screw from
underside, hot glue etc). Use wedges to prop up any wobbly bits. Then
the thicknesser will "copy" the flatness of the ply to the top face of
your board. You can then flip it on its own to get the other face.
Square the narrow edge on the table saw. (make a clamping board with a
guide rail bar on the bottom, so you can run a bit of odd shaped
timber straight past the blade without needing to use the fence.


Oh - I see - that is a good idea

No time to read the whole thread, but I will just say this. Many a
lightweight saw or bench has been made rock solid with a few sandbags
hung over the cross pieces. Wadkins are good, mainly because they're so
damned heavy :-)

Stuart Noble wrote:

Many a lightweight saw or bench has been made rock solid with a few
sandbags hung over the cross pieces.

I have a pair of fatmax telescopic saw horses, with a blockboard and
melamine desk top sat on top, and yes sticking a 28lb weight on the
shelf of each trestle makes quite a difference ...

Can you concrete an area or garden over 4x8 feet for a working area?
(call it a patio)

Attaching to a wall with hinges sounds good - could that be an edge of the patio?

[george]